DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

PDR, I put a little more thought into it than that. The Cowboys can't keep restructuring Romo and they have major salary cap problems. Dez is about to get his first big contract.
I know it isn't likely, and it is just talk among fans.

No harm in just spitballing, but I just don't see even a sliver of realism in Gordon, Manziel and a pick for Bryant.

I would laugh and hang up the phone.

Wouldn't you agree though that a professional passing attack is developed as ALL of the receivers run their routes? Perhaps he wasn't as much locked on to Gordon as trying to see if he was going to screw up any of the other routes?

I follow ya. We are sort of saying the same thing. I'm saying this might have been why it happened, and your saying yeah it did and it was a mistake.

One thing i don't agree on is the 'seasoned vet' part. Hoyer has been in the league, but it was still his first year starting. Imo this was his rookie year, I still would love to see what he did with his 2nd.

But yeah, Gordon coming in threw a wrench in the gears for sure.

A few comments since I was last on the thread:

Clem and Pit: While I respect what you guys are saying, I have to disagree. I put no blame on Shanny. If you have supposedly "the best WR" in football, you get him the ball. Calvin Johnson has missed time and teams roll their coverages to him, but Detroit still throws him the ball. The difference is that Calvin is a pro and Gordon is not. Let's not blame Shanny. I fully believe that this guy is an outstanding coordinator. I think he is our most valuable coach. I don't want to lose this guy. Please, let's not run him out of town like we did Arians.


Otto: I almost had a heart attack when you said you agreed w/me and I laughed my ass off when you said that scared you. I thought your post was spot on and I also agree that I probably should not call him a punk. I'm sure he would make short work of me in a fight. I just don't like the way he handles himself. I have made plenty of mistakes in life. We all have. Most of us are contrite afterwards and want to make amends for our misdeeds. Gordon does not seem to get that. I liked what you had to say about Manziel. I agree w/you about all of that.

tab: Yeah, I hope I am wrong when I knock our guys. I've been wrong before. I thought Russell sucked and he turned out to be a darn good player. I thought Holcomb would be good, but he wasn't. I didn't like the Kirskey pick, but he looks good. I hated the Hughes pick, but man, that cat can play. He really helped us last week. Do you remember when Leon was let go? You made a post saying you were surprised that I was down and thought I would be happy. Bro, I am never happy to see a Brown fail. I hope all three of those guys prove me wrong.

Cowboys do have a lot of FA coming up, they do have some monies coming off that should help.

They will also look to restructure Melton and Smith and I bet they do Romo again, I think his hit is over 25 Mil next year iirc.

that said teams always seem to find the money to keep a player they really want.

Oh believe me, I don't want Shanny gone. I do believe after that second game though he should have had the ball spread out a little more.

Send them packing. They do not want to put in time to be a good pro.

'Enough talk, Browns should release Johnny Manziel and Josh Gordon'

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...and-josh-gordon

By Pat McManamon | ESPN.com

BEREA, Ohio -- Every player on the field for the Cleveland Browns in Baltimore on Sunday showed what it means to be a professional.

Their two teammates who could not even show up for work on Saturday did not.

It’s time for the team to put words to action and release Josh Gordon and Johnny Manziel.

The team might miss Gordon’s talent, but it won’t miss the complete lack of professionalism the two have shown. Waiting on them to change is waiting for Tinker Bell. Enough.

The Browns should cut their losses and move on. The team will be better for it -- and the team is what it is supposed to be about.

"We're going to take our time here," coach Mike Pettine said Monday. "We're going to step away from the emotion of it all. Get some time off. Come back. We'll have all the players written up and evaluated and in a much less emotional environment evaluate the roster and talk about each position and what changes need to be made.

"That's something I'm sure all positions will be discussed. How do the players on our roster given where they are now ... should they be here or should they not be here?"

Teams have to stand for something. When a situation gets to this point, preaching without implementing principles is empty talk.

Manziel and Gordon missed their last Saturday of work. Various reports said several Browns were late Saturday, but a team source denied that. The only two missing were Manziel and Gordon. And both were missing for the large majority of the morning -- with security knocking on Manziel’s door to find him.

The Browns could try to trade Gordon; he has rare talent. But what other NFL team would give up something for a guy with two league suspensions and one team suspension, not to mention his speeding tickets and his DUI and all else that goes with him?

Guys are entitled to a life and to have fun; Manziel and Gordon surely weren’t the only two to go out Friday night. But they didn’t get up for work the next day. As Pettine said, their actions affected their job.

“You’d expect a middle-schooler to show up on time," tackle Joe Thomas said. "Why can’t we expect NFL players to show up on time?”

The cap hit for Manziel is not cheap -- $5.5 million -- but Gordon’s is a mere $600,000. The price for principle, and the team, is worth it. Add in Manziel's five first downs in seven quarters (two by penalty) and nine three-play possessions and Gordon averaging three receptions in his final three games (and his key drops against the Colts) and the cap cost becomes nearly irrelevant.

Rookie cornerback Justin Gilbert’s situation might be a little different, though his teammates' blistering words indicate it might not be. The team properly handled Gilbert being late for a meeting on Saturday night -- after the trip to Baltimore -- by making him inactive.

For this trio, the final weekend reached the point that the team suspended Gordon, and Pettine had Gilbert and Manziel sit in the locker room during the game. That sounded like a third-grader not allowed out of class for recess.

Owner Jimmy Haslam talked tough after Sunday's loss to Baltimore, saying players who don't show up for meetings or practice "disrespect the team, the coaches, the staff, the fans."

But if Haslam and the team turn a blind eye to what happened Saturday then what do the words really mean except that the Browns are merely enabling this behavior? This all harkens back to the day when former Brown Braylon Edwards was told not to go to an Ohio State-Michigan game, then helicoptered there and returned late. Edwards went on his merry way, dropping passes and letting his teammates and the fans down.

There were examples of professionalism all over the field in Baltimore, from Joe Haden playing with the flu to Karlos Dansby coming back from a knee injury to Andrew Hawkins playing after having his thumb in a splint all week. No fan can or should be let down in the least by the effort or dedication the team showed. They represented the Browns the way a team with a proud heritage should be represented.

Unfortunately they have “teammates” who don’t.

Everyone is responsible for their actions. Actions bring accountability. It’s time for the Browns to hold these “players” truly accountable.



(end)

I agree... if you want to be a pro.. act like a pro.

I don't. Waive Gordon and watch Cincy, who has a team of misfits, pick him up. Every year you'll face both Green and Gordon twice.

It is Gordon and Manziel decision to play. Browns have them on rookie salaries. They either step up or warm pine. It is not like they are eating up cap. My opinion, why give another team a chance or get lucky turning these two into professionals.

I go back and forth, like probably a lot of folks. Cut them now and send a message, we didn't get a thing from either one of them this year, Manziel probably can't be an NFL QB (he would need a overachiever's work ethic to surmount his limitations, and you just can't suddenly develop that), and Gordon is almost certain to flunk a pee test soon. You could make a point without risking much.
But, you could also glue them both to the bench for another year and sooner or later, they might realize that their only hope for the future lies in getting their acts together. It wouldn't cost much.
I don't think these two idiots are clubhouse cancers in the traditional sense, because I thin they are marginalized. The guys you have to worry about are guys like Ben Tate. Everyone in the locker room knows Gordon is an idiot and JFF is a punk. They don't have much influence.
I guess if you can trade them, explore it before their value craters even more.

I keep going back and forth, for sure, as every new "report" seems to be a different angle. IF they are true morale and clubhouse 'Debbie Downers' then they must go. IF their antics are more juvenile, then crack down on the discipline - if that means benching - then bench, fine, take away their phone!

We are a young team trying to build something good and can't withstand these types of antics at this point and we need everyone to commit. When they show up at practice - how are they doing? Do they put in the time to watch tape, get better, lift, etc..

Do they have the talent to consistently help the team win games?

I agree. Sitting them hurts them more than releasing them.

First, my first time being able to login to this site for months.

Bye to Manziel. Didn't like the pick from the beginning, but enjoyed the national attention. The conversation now seems to be how to re-program him. Why? He doesn't have the basic skills and after you remove the Manziel factor, what's left? I want a QB that gets the ball out very quickly...like Hoyer did in the beginning. Manziel will never be that QB.

Keep Gordon and Gilbert and hope they get it. They have the desired skill sets. Selfish immature players are going to be common, so we need to figure out how to manage them.

I'm not giving up on Hoyer. Patch up the OLine in front of him and I think he will return to QB he was before. Give me the Hoyer that we saw earlier...quick read, get the ball out quick. But get him some receivers with size and fight. Not smurfs.

It's a fun sentiment, but you don't release players that you could potentially trade.

Yep. Even players with attitudes can be assets. No sense giving away, and paying, a player you might be able to trade for something later on.

And points such as this are things that often times get lost in the emotion and fandom side of things.

I know I was the one who posted the article that says to release them, but I gotta agree with ya here.

Such drama.... It's almost like a TV show sometimes!!! You know?

But what do you think you could get? I would be surprised to get more than a 6th for Gordon with his track record. He is beyond the "change of scenery" phase of his idiocy.

Manziel is hard to say. I certainly don't think anyone would give up a first for him. I could see someone maybe give a third for his potential and team friendly contract.

Gilbert I would keep. Without bad apples around him, one player can be reclaimed.

Mike Williams had a big contract and troubled past (maybe not to extent of Gordon, then again Mike Williams never had a season like Gordon did in 2013) Williams went for I believe a 6th and had a big contract...I believe we can fetch a late 3rd or early 4th...I wish Benjamin had a market...I would dump him for a 6th and draft his replacement with it (Christian Jones from Bama maybe?)

j/c

I've steered clear of this thread while giving it some thought. Personally I think if we keep Gordon until the draft and he is not suspended yet again for pot or whatever other reason, then we have decent leverage for a trade or we could keep him for one last chance. If he's clean and it looks like he'll play next season at draft time, he could easily be bartered at the draft for max value. If he seems to be getting his act together at that point, then a real 1 year last chance would be good too.

Too Much Talent That We Desperately Need! Keep all three and hold them accountable!!! Like any professional organization, our veterans need to continue to step it up and actively engage in mentoring and developing these young talents. My opinion -- I don't think we've COMPLETELY done our part as an organization - ACTIVE engagement at every level.

Give them another chance, and only then "if you can't change the people, then change the people".

Even our pro bowl corner back had some issues (see link):
Joe Knows[/u][u]

I'm off the emotional roller coaster of a season now. I figure we keep them as trade bait and if nothing comes of that we see what they bring into camp. No need to get in a hurry now. I'm betting Gordon gets suspended again, Gilbert shows improvement, and Manziel spends another season holding a clip board. Of the three, I'm most concerned with Gilbert.

That's funny, he's actually the one I'm least worried about. He showed real promise at times last season. I'm not sure what the problem was, clearly it's one his teammates recognized and spoke up about.

I have to wonder, what if they'd brought it up in the press sooner.. Maybe mid season?

If we can only get a 6th, then we take it. No sense in releasing someone who you can get something for in a trade. I think we can do better than a 6th, but even a 6th is something. We can use to draft a kicker or take a flyer on someone we would normally hope to snag as a UDFA.

With a trade, we can control where he goes on top of getting something in return.

PDR asked me why I believe Manziel to be intelligent. It is a fair question although fairly hard to answer. Add in the fact that when PDR asks a question like that you know he just wants to show you that you're wrong while at the same time making (or trying to make) you look stupid and the question becomes even harder to answer. But making myself look stupid is one of my strong points so I'll give it a shot.....

Can I point to a test or something similar to say, see, that proves he's smart? No, not really. He did reasonably well on the Wonderlic, as I recall, but as with any IQ-type test that can be misleading. What I have seen when he speaks is certainly not a Rhodes Scholar level speech pattern. But he doesn't have to be. He gets his point across reasonably well even if he takes a detour or two along the way. He knows the right thing to say even when he sometimes is doing just the opposite. I chalk that up to immaturity not stupidity. The fact that he sometimes speaks like he's from the 'hood and not from the rich suburbs of Dallas I attribute to the fact that he's young and has spent a lot of time with teammates that are from the 'hood. Again, possibly annoying to some but not necessarily an indication of a lack of intelligence. The on-field intelligence will come with repetition. Or it won't. It's far too early to tell, IMO.

At this point, I feel it necessary to mention that before the Draft he was pretty low on my QB's I'd like to see in Cleveland list. I felt that Bridgewater or Carr would have had much better success, at least initially, than Johnny would have. But we didn't draft those guys. We drafted JM. Once he became a Brown I felt, as I do with most of our draft picks, that it was a more satisfying course of action to support the pick/player than it would be to spend most of my time bitching because they didn't pick "my guy".

Anyway, at this point in time it's fruitless for us, as fans, to rant on and on about how they need to cut this guy or that guy loose before the sun sets. They are not going to cut Manziel or Gilbert before they, at least, run them through another training camp. It just wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is these guys have real talent that can be useful to the Browns if the guys can pull their heads out of their collective asses. I think, well, hope, they can.

Gordon is another story. As much as his talent is obvious and is a pleasure to watch when he's playing like a true professional his personal demons will be his ruin. And they can take the team down with him. In this case, the risk outweighs the possible reward. He must be cut loose before he infects the locker room any further than he already has. I wish this was not the case. Hell, in two years he might be looked at as the best WR in the league. Or he could be back selling cars. Neither would surprise me. But whichever one it is, it shouldn't be in Cleveland.
JMHO

Not sure why Manziel would fetch more than Gordon in a trade. Gordon has at least produced in the NFL. I could see a team who thinks they're a WR shy of a Super Bowl giving up a 4th round pick. I mentioned the Pats earlier, and they might be able to win a Super Bowl without an elite WR, but imagine if Brady was throwing to a focused Josh Gordon. Scary.

Man, did someone hack your account?

I agree w/almost everything you said.

That's because I'm such an agreeable guy.....

Good point. I probably should have said something like "Of the three, I'm most interested in how Gilbert responds." He's still an interesting prospect to me. Gordon? I can take him or leave him. Same with Manziel. Of course it would be nice for Manziel to prove us all wrong and all that but I'm really running short on wishful thinking these days.

As it is, my Browns looked better this year than the have in a long time. How many days till training camp?

How about a fifth...a fifth of whiskey. About all you could get for these losers.
Plus you need it to drown your sorrows rooting for a team continuously run by a bunch of clowns.

Johnny & Josh partying in Aspen ... this can only end well.



http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/01/johnny_manziel_and_josh_gordon_1.html

http://bustedcoverage.com/2015/01/16/johnny-manziel-partied-with-josh-gordon-in-aspen/

well.....if you try to look at it from a positive angle, atleast the QB and WR are gonne build chemistry and trust with each other?

i tried.

Interesting that you seem to blame Gordon's friends more than you blame Josh for his suspensions. And while I'd normally grant you that this is a non-story ... for these guys, at this point in time, in this locale, its a story.

Maybe they are trying to build trust with the chemistry of a nice Riesling.

Tab's got a point.

if we was just dealing with two guys that just parties way too hard, then really, theres no big issue.

but gordons friends, combined with his mentality, like to party with weed. thats an issue.

right now we need to take this one step at a time. manziel's friends is i guess technically an upgrade over gordon's.

i'm really just trying to stay positive with all this. i have no idea whats going to happen to these guys this off season.

I am sure Tom Landry, Chuck Knoll, Bill Parcells and even Bill Belicick would say "party on boys".