DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel..continued...

Purp,

I totally get what you're saying, but truth be told, if there are no cameras around and no pub. saying anything, we'd never know that he was/wasn't doing any of that stuff. It's the equivalent of a rich person donating anonymously to some charity. People might criticize the person because their name isn't on any donation/charity lists, but it doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

That being said, I too take this pic with a bit of skepticism.

"What if we only had one draft pick last year, what if we had two but used it on another position instead of QB...(lets leave Carr and Bridgewater out of this conversation for a moment), that would not have hamstrung a team "for years" to extrapolate a bad pick ( even a first rounder) into years of failure is not necessarily true."
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There is no what if's. There is only what is.

They had two picks and Bridgewater was there. The Browns were given the mission of find a quarterback. They ignored the information in front of them on Bridgewater and Manziel.

Yes, the financial implications are not as bad as in the past.

However, the true cost for Manziel is still very real.

Last year gone; no help. This year basically a wash.

Next year same issue find a guy. Whoever they select and when will still need time to develop.

So instead of starting this year with a guy in place with a year under his belt.

The Browns are years away with uncertainty still the picture.

Listening to the video, it's saying that the reason the Eagles don't want Manziel is that if they trade Bradford it will be to obtain picks to use as trade bait to move up to get Mariota.

If the Goal is to get Mariota, why would they want Manziel?

I'm certain that there will be a fair deal on skepticism, but that says more about us then it does about Manziel...

People say we should have taken Bridgewater, but who's to say he'd have done any better than Manziel. I have zero faith that Shanahan and Loggains could have coached him as well as Norv in Minni. Besides, Bridgewater didn't want to play here.

Bridgewater did not want to play in Cle

At least Manziel wanted to be here. We'll see how he does this year.

I wouldn't base your opinion on Norv's ability to coach qbs, you know, factoring he got nothing out of Weeden while here. JMO

Part of the importance of seeing what we have in JM. He may have no trade value now, but IF he can prove himself this season, he may. Many professional NFL talent evaluators believed JF has what it takes to succeed in the NFL. What he proved last year was that he wasn't taking the responsibility required. He has neither proven nor disproven the ability. He still could be worth something.

Manziel wanted to be ANYWHERE as long as he got paid. The Browns (as usual) got suckered. Haslam at least got something from him in the form of marketing the team, selling tickets and jerseys. He is useless as an NFL QB. Haslam GOT THE FANS MONEY and Johnny got paid. What did the fans get? Screwed. As usual. Move to LA. See you guys in 2018. LOL

Probably.

What is even MORE immaterial is discussion about "if only we'd have gotten Bridgewater."

We didn't.

As I tell my wife all the time: You can't change yesterday, or 10 years ago. You can LEARN from it, but you can't change it. So, why fret about it. Deal with today, plan for tomorrow.

Most people know where we've been. Only the few with vision, are able to see where we're going...

To learn from the past, we must look at it and remember it. The vision moving forward depends solely on one thing. That's IF the powers that be, who made past mistakes learn from it.

We have no power to make such a vision a reality.

I am hesitant to respond because I can see this spiraling into we should have drafted TB and that is exactly what I was trying to avoid.

That is a given...we could have drafted a better QB.... got it... no argument.... a better QB would have made our QB situation... well... better... understand...

Ok that is out of the way... my only real problem I had with the article was the conclusion that Taking JM will cause years of problems... my contention is that aside from the salary dollars, which is no where near as damaging as it once would have been ( see Sam Bradford rookie contract dollars), taking JM is no worse than say we didn't trade up and KC ( or someone) took JM and we ended taking a OG or say we weren't able to fleece Indy in the TR trade and we had only one first rounder.

Cut JM , its no different than if we never got him in the first place.... the needs are still the same....find a QB.

Your reasoning is sound, I understand, but to pin potentially years of problems on the drafting of one player does not compute. Not meant to excuse FO... they have their work cut for them... no QB... no winner

I do have one exception to your response though... no what ifs? except the what if we drafted Bridgewater?

Remember and learn from your past
live and enjoy your present
look to and plan your future

In this case, it's those doing the drafting that we must hope learn.




Considering the topic is our current QB situation, I'm not so sure there's much about it to enjoy at the present time.




Once again, in this case we have zero control over that.

I don't know if that's exactly a fact or your opinion.

Alex Mack still believes in Johnny Manziel and the Cleveland Browns center thinks he can be the long-term answer at quarterback despite a disappointing rookie season and a stint in rehab.


The fate of Johnny Manziel is a mystery after the former Heisman winner was a colossal disappointment as a rookie and is finishing up a stint rehab where he’s been the last two months receiving treatment for undisclosed reasons.


Last year’s second of two first round picks came under fire from perennial pro bowl left tackle, Joe Thomas earlier this week when the Browns offensive lineman said Manziel has to earn his trust back and prove he wants to put the work in to be the starting quarterback

“I think he’s going to have to prove to the team that football is important and being the man, being the starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, is important, it is his goal, his single goal in his life,” Thomas said.

His linemate, Pro Bowl center Alex Mack took a different approach than Thomas and is still optimistic Manziel is capable of being the answer at the position the Browns have struggled to fill since Bernie Kosar and told Sirius XM Radio that he isn’t giving up on Manziel.



Mack can opt-out of his contract at the end of the 2015 season so if Manziel fails to be the player the team hopes he would be when they traded up to get him with their second pick in the first round, Mack could wash his hands of the situation and find a team where their starting quarterback didn’t spend the offseason in rehab and can lead Mack to the playoffs.

However, he’s focused on the present and is confident the Browns are headed in the right direction and his primary focus is on staying healthy and will worry about his contract status next year.



You have to respect Mack for taking a glass half-full approach here and not throwing Manziel under the bus, but at the same time, I don’t fault Thomas for his comments either because he’s the leader of the team and is fed up with losing.

So while rumors continue to swirl the Browns are interested in drafting Marcus Mariota, trading for Sam Bradford or simply giving up on Manziel entirely, this much is clear, Manziel has a lot of work to do on and off the field to shed the bust label that’s plastered across his chest like the scarlet letter.

Alex Mack: Johnny Manziel doesn’t need to earn my trust back

Posted by Josh Alper on April 8, 2015, 1:57 PM EDT

Browns left tackle Joe Thomas said in a recent interview that he thought quarterback Johnny Manziel “lost probably a lot of trust among the guys on the team last year” as a result of the way he handled himself as a rookie.

Thomas added that Manziel has the talent to succeed in the NFL, but said he felt the way last season played out created “uncertainty” around the team about Manziel’s fitness for the job. Center Alex Mack had a different take on Manziel during a visit with Rich Gannon and Bruce Murray on Sirius XM NFL Radio on Wednesday.

Mack said that he didn’t feel that Manziel had to win back his trust after the way things played out in 2014 and that he still thinks Manziel can be the long-term answer at the position in Cleveland. Other reports have indicated the Browns brass doesn’t feel the same way, but Mack’s comments suggest, to little surprise, that there’s no unanimity about what the future holds for Manziel.

Mack’s future in Cleveland also came up during Thomas’s chat with ESPN Cleveland. Mack can opt out of his contract after the 2015 season and Thomas said he wouldn’t be surprised if Mack decided to do that in the event the team couldn’t show him that “we’re moving in the right direction.” Mack said Wednesday he thought the team was doing “good things” and that he hasn’t thought about what he’ll do in 2016 at this point.

That said, Thomas is probably right that a good season wouldn’t hurt Cleveland’s chances of holding onto Mack. Finding the right answer at quarterback would help on that front, although there’s much to play out before we’ll have an idea if Manziel can be that answer.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-my-trust-back/

j/c:

A few comments on some of the posts and news:

--Daman said that he read the reason Bradford would not sign an extension w/the Browns was because of money. What? I was driving back to SC from Ohio and heard three reports that it was because he thought the Browns were a mess. Money was not even mentioned.

--Ignoring the past is ignorant. That is why the Browns--and so many posters--keep making the same stupid mistakes.

--I couldn't even believe the post that mentioned something about Teddy not looking any better than Manziel had he come to Cleveland. What?

--It was nice to hear that Mack stood up for Johnny. Of course, he is probably gone after this year. LOL.

--I wonder if Joe T is getting totally fed up w/the Browns? I'm not sure about that, but he has been pretty negative as of late.

--I don't know how to take the hospital visits by Johnny, but I am glad he visiting hospitals rather than bars.

--I am probably not smart enough to figure this out, but the Bradford, Manziel, Mariotta rumors really do not make much sense to me. Seriously, I don't get any of those rumors. Maybe one of you "smart guys" can explain it to me.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have looked better. I'm saying we don't know that he would have. Remember how terrible the o-line looked when Manziel got his PT? Tom Brady would've looked like crap behind that type of blocking. I also think Hoyer regressed for whatever reason. Has Loggains ever developed a good QB?

I think the team didn't play for Johnny. The defense got destroyed by the Bengals in that same game. Hill ran all over us. I believe he had over 100 yds. in the first half! This was the same guy who punked us after we beat them earlier in the year. And we let him run all over us.

I don't blame the coaches for that game. I blame Farmer and the FO. This is what people on here don't seem to get.......they forced personnel decisions on the coaches and that is why Shanny wanted out. He was the only guy who was good enough to say "screw you" to the idiots in the FO. The Brown's players laid down that day when Manziel was forced into the starting lineup by the FO.

Loggains is a young man. He is around 33-34. Matt Hassleback had his 3rd best year under him. Jake Locker had his best showing under him. The Titans ownership/FO did not like Loggains because they felt he passed the ball too much. They wanted him out and it was the biggest reason Mike Munchak lost his job in Tenn. He would not agree w/the FO. And I am going to tell you something right now.............Mike Munchak is one of the most respected football guys in the league.

I also want to refute another popular misconception that has made the rounds on this board. People tie Shanny and Loggains together. I have read posters who say that Loggains was Shanny's boy. That's BS! Loggains was hired before Shanny. People make crap up to fit their arguments. They repeat it often enough and others start to believe it. All of a sudden, it becomes a "fact." Making a mistake is one thing, deliberately deceiving people is quite anoter.

Manziel out of rehab

My guess is that we get some sort of sit down interview with someone like Tom Rinaldi.

JF on the Oprah show!

In all seriousness, it's begun. What type of person do we have now after a long rehab process? All to be seen.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else, But I'm willing to become non judgmental and just let it play out when it comes to Manziel.

I wasn't, and remain not in favor of him being picked last year in the draft but he's here now and as long as he is, I'll root for him.

Can you imagine the number of problems that get solved by him turning it around?

did they give him growth hormones? maybe some speed pills to make him faster? some kind of pill for better balance so he can be elusive?

a brain transplant so he can learn a play book maybe as a bonus?

Well Damanshot it would sure get rid of the pblack1870 BS!

Good for him. I hope it really help him, both on and off the field.

As someone who celebrated 20 years of sobriety last fall and has sponsored dozens of guys over the years I put the odds of him...
1. Staying sober as a 23(?)yr old flush with cash, ladies and hangers-on AND
2. Not falling apart mentally emotionally in the high pressure, max visibility world he's stepping back into with few of the coping skills he's accustomed to accessing the last 23yrs AND
3. Actually becoming anything like the kind of QB we hoped beyond reason he would be...

at less than 1 in 1000. Maybe way less. I've known 2 people, (coincidentally both wallstreeters) come in young, get cleaned up, and with nary a breather go right back into super high pressure gigs with upward trajectory and not have some kind of a blow out (that I know about). But they were both guys who knew how to work, how to study and focus, who understood and accepted the challenges in front of them without much fight and were getting clean BECAUSE it was interfering with their success. I don't know Johnny but I don't think that's his make up.

All I hope is that the kids works it out on a personal level and lives a decent life. All the football stuff... yea, I just don't see it. Call me a cynic but that is an epic balancing act. A dog juggling flaming bowling pins on a unicycle on a tightrope on a windy day kind of balancing act.

If I were the Browns I'd frankly be playing it exactly like they're playing it. Treat him almost as though he's coming back from multiple knee/ achilles blowouts. They'll know if he's good within a couple of weeks. If he is good, you ride it for as long as you can but realize he could have one little lapse and the whole house of cards comes down. So you just keep zero mental investment in him and march on with other plans. The minute he went into treatment it was over in my mind.

"The minute he went into treatment it was over in my mind."

Wow... I've been clean & sober 19 years and that last sentence was pretty pessimistic. When I heard he went into rehab, I thought it was a big step in the right direction for him.... Don't know if he'll be able to pull it all off (stay clean, be a good NFL QB), but we shall see. Would I bet on it? Well.....

I gotta agree with you on a lot of the other things you say.

He will have to be obsessed with football to make it in the NFL and not use alcohol & other drugs ever again. Turn his back on them. Only time will tell.

-I'm gonna watch a bit of Dexter and hit the hay.

must have missed something. did he look big, fast, elusive and like he knew the playbook to you vambo?

Congratulations man!!!! That's awesome.

As for the rest of your post:

I don't think he'll turn out to be a QB that can take us to playoffs and then beyond either. The odds are against him. One thing is for sure, if his personal life has been taken care of, and he can/will focus on football - that can only help his odds big time of proving you and I wrong!

Yea, if it were a year from now and he were sober all that time I'd revise my opinion. I said it when the news first broke that if I were his parent or his agent I'd seriously try to convince him to take a year off. But 60 days clean in-patient and walking out and diving right back into the soup? ....yea, no. I really hope as a person he proves me wrong. But as a Browns fan I have absolute zero confidence he's our guy moving forward.

Life is a crap shoot. The easy thing to do is predict failure. The facts are that as fans with not access we can't possibly know enough to say with any certainty what will become of Johnny Manziel.

I'm hoping for the best and I'll leave it at that.

As someone who also has been thru recovery, I hope he can refocus. For me, the things that I neglected, became my new addiction. It was a mind set that I needed a lot of support to maintain. Some people can do it and never look back, others may stumble. But even those who do stumble, have a better chance than someone who doesn't experience the first fall.

The Browns have to become part of the equation for him. Be his support system, until he can do it alone. He is an investment they made, and if they want it to pay off, then they need to help this kid stay focused. I wouldn't call it babysitting, more protecting the investment.

First and foremost, Manzeil is a person. A very young person at that. A very young person who is becoming aware of a problem that coming from his backround, is something that was never thought of in his mind. I believe the kid thought he had the world by the balls. I imagine his eyes have been opened through this experience.

This program could have helped him mature, and open his eyes to what life really has to offer beyond money and good times.

If he works at his rehab, the only thing that will stop his career, is a lack of ability.

I hope he makes it past his problem. If he becomes a good player, that is just icing on the cake.

I'll add my voice to the chorus of sober posters (25 yrs) rooting for his success in his new sobriety. One of the primary things that kept me sober in the first year was focusing on my work, almost to the exclusion of everything else. I have seen others do the same over the years, and believe that if JM does it, as E.Ryse19 said, the only thing that will stop him is lack of ability.

J/C ...... I think that this really shows a new maturity for Manziel. Now he has to hold onto that new maturity. He made the decision to not only get help, but to do so in a very public manner. This could not have been easy.

I hope that he stays sober, out of trouble, and dedicates himself to football. I do think that he can succeed if he does so.