Oh am I picking on you...stand up for yourself if that is what you truly believe explain yourself a lot better than what you just stated. Cause I believe you are way off base but don't cry to me - I'm picking on you.
We all have brain farts...except I think I remember the same old theme as in Hoyer and in our Run game as in the O most the time (and I might have you mixed up with somebody else) its all the OL fault as in this case...ESPECIALLY THE OL.
Don't cry that I'm preventing you to discuss anything. This ain't a Boo Hoo moment. I'm all ears lets discuss.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Is there really reason to be concerned about the offensive line? I thought with a healthy Alex Mack that we have one of the best in the entire league? Now we added Erving and this Bowie guy to compete on the right side for time. Offensive line should be one of the few things we can be confident about on this team, right!?
"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
Are you right, all the talking heads say we have better than average line.....remember these are our Browns...Bentley, Mack...how many games has Thomas played unhurt...could we succeed with him out...we got insurance, but ANY major player going down on O line hurts....BAD....hope we stay healthy, then I agree you are right....lucky or unlucky....we shall see....GO Browns!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
--I agree the OL is not a concern. I will say that they are better at pass blocking than run blocking. Can't imagine anyone would dispute that.
--I heard we were going to keep the ZBS, but that was right when we hired Flip. I have NOT heard anything about that recently. Can one of you who seem so sure we are keeping the same exact system that Shanny had w/the ZBS, please provide some evidence of that? I researched it and could not find proof of any recent comments. In fact, recent articles suggest the opposite. But, I could be wrong and want to be corrected.
--I wonder how Flip and company are going to know how to run "exactly" the same ZBS run scheme that Shanny did? That system took years to refine. Shanny got most of it from his father. You just don't simply become a master of something in less than a year.
--People are still ignoring my stat of how only two teams had a worse yards per attempt rushing average than we did last year. It was probably even worse the year before. But now, we are going to have a dominant running game? Things are not adding up for me.
--Yes, Hoyer's deep ball was poor, but are we going to have WRs come as wide open this year as last? I never saw so many open WRs and TEs playing for the Browns in my life. Y'all don't think that had to do w/the play design and route trees?
--Also, are people forgetting how quickly Hoyer read defenses and got rid of the ball. Are you forgetting how we used the quick passing game to move the ball on people? McCown is notorious for holding the ball too long. What does a quick release vs a guy who takes too much time do the perception of how people view the OL?
Alrighty............I imagine the name calling of "hater," "Negative Nancy," "Gloom and Doomer," "Whiner" will begin and I will see comments like "go root for the Steelers" and "you are trying to 'vanquish' other posters," etc will begin, but please tell me in each and every one of my bullet points was I NOT talking football?
I agree 100% that you are talking football. I believe everyone one of your points are legitimate.
From everything I've gathered, the ZBS will be the main focus but will be blended in with some in line blocking for inside running. I don't remember where I read that but I did see it recently.
I believe the difference in holding the ball verses a quick read and react is very much like comparing Weeden to Hoyer in that aspect.
I don't believe you can expect a first time OC to come in here and duplicate a scheme that was built by Senior Shanahan then handed down to his son. Some aspects may be somewhat similar, but his entire scheme would be very difficult for someone with very little experience to duplicate.
I believe you hit on some very valid and legitimate concerns.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
1. Top 2 or 3 in pass blocking top 5 or 6 in run blocking when these guys were healthy. We both ripped the hell out of farmer last year for his turd fest he called depth and now we atleast have a 6th man for the OL, I dont think we have a 7th but we do have 6.
2. It was in one of those Flip interviews when he said we were keeping the same system but adding more inside gap runs. Trying to remember his exact term but I just got off work and brain is kinda fried. I believe Pet has also commented on just adding a few more wrinkles to the run game but we are keeping in tact the majority.
3. We have the same OL coaches and the Same RB coaches. Which by far is the best thing Shanny did for us in bring in a hell of a staff even though I did not care for what the QB coach did but receiver coach was terrific other than partying with players, OL coach and RB coaches are the Bomb and we have probably the best RB coach in football.
4. +The backup centers we brought in did well in pass pro but man they were all suffering from noassatol. I see a ton of talent in this group of backs and we added my #1 rated back in this draft because the kid from GA was recovering.
5. I think Gabriel with a year under his belt and bringing in hartline will be huge. i think hartline was an insane steal for us, I am an SEC guy and could not stand his brother but this kid made Skrine look like he never played a game before and I feel Gabriel has steve smith potential
I also like the addition of Joker, the guy is a great teacher. Never been at this level but he really takes raw guys and gets the most out of them. Give them 3 routes and tell them to learn to run it with their eyes closed and then we go from there lol. Teaching precision.
I think McCown has a better deepball but ugg guys will be open cause they are gonna load up against the run and send guys to hit the QB. Now a QB could grow in confidence behind our line, lasted Campbell 3 games looked like a star then he took one good hit and called it a career. I didnt want McCown but he is here for now and so far looks good. At this point he is doing what we want and looks the part. Until he proves that he is nothing more than the fumble machine that panics when someone holds up a sign that says pressure, we are good. I hope we have found our old vet that can lead us to the promise land but I aint banking on it.
Hoyer got rid of the ball quickly no doubt but you have to hit those big gimmie plays. You just cant miss those and win many games.
The problem with running the ball will be whether or not McCown can make teams pay for not respecting the pass. As the season wore down last year, teams run blitzed the crap out of us just daring Hoyer to beat us. The more he proved he couldn't, the more they sold out for the run. This was the biggest reason why the running game came to a halt, not the loss of Mack. There was zero respect for the passing game. And even if we were to get a little lucky, like Hoyer's long pass to Cameron, we couldn't do that enough within a game for it to matter.
The passing game has to be able to keep the defense honest. Or else it doesn't matter how great your OLine is. Teams will just sell out on the run. And if you can't make them pay for that, you will lose every single time.
The front office and coaching staff think we can make them pay this year. Are they correct? We wont know till the games are played.
"Amazing. Explosive offense. They're doing a lot of moving around. They're trying to get us outleveraged and making plays. Josh [McCown] is getting down the field and is accurate on a lot of throws. He's putting it into tight windows. They're making a lot of plays on the other side of the ball. We had a lot of great competition, so we were competing everyday. We look forward to it every day."
"Amazing. Explosive offense. They're doing a lot of moving around. They're trying to get us outleveraged and making plays. Josh [McCown] is getting down the field and is accurate on a lot of throws. He's putting it into tight windows. They're making a lot of plays on the other side of the ball. We had a lot of great competition, so we were competing everyday. We look forward to it every day."
Motions can be a great tool to get setup to maximize your play call, but I keep hearing about all these motions and pre-snap movement and it concerns me factoring...
We have a new OC coordinator, who himself is "new" at that position in the NFL.
The playbook is new to our players, and is added stuff to try to learn and be effective at with the motions.
How good is any of our QBs at pre-snap reads to know if the motioning is going to help, or be detrimental.
But if it works and sets up a Housler for a killer route up the middle, or a great running scheme getting a LB or the dline to shift, or whatever the "good" can come out of doing a lot of pre-snap movements, then awesome.
--I agree the OL is not a concern. I will say that they are better at pass blocking than run blocking. Can't imagine anyone would dispute that.
--I heard we were going to keep the ZBS, but that was right when we hired Flip. I have NOT heard anything about that recently. Can one of you who seem so sure we are keeping the same exact system that Shanny had w/the ZBS, please provide some evidence of that? I researched it and could not find proof of any recent comments. In fact, recent articles suggest the opposite. But, I could be wrong and want to be corrected.
Mourg answered that well. The positive is that this is year 2 in the ZBS Shanny installed and the coaches were retained. My concern is that without Shanny I don't think his ZBS will continue without a hitch. I think it will take a step back.
--I wonder how Flip and company are going to know how to run "exactly" the same ZBS run scheme that Shanny did? That system took years to refine. Shanny got most of it from his father. You just don't simply become a master of something in less than a year.
I don't think they can. I think it will take this season for Flip and Co. to get really familiar with it as they learn the players too. If we keep the continuity into next year I think we'll see a step up then.
--People are still ignoring my stat of how only two teams had a worse yards per attempt rushing average than we did last year. It was probably even worse the year before. But now, we are going to have a dominant running game? Things are not adding up for me.
I wanted to look up last year's stats on the YPA when Mack was in vs when he was out. But I'm too lazy this morning to dig. I suspect the early YPA was much better.
--Yes, Hoyer's deep ball was poor, but are we going to have WRs come as wide open this year as last? I never saw so many open WRs and TEs playing for the Browns in my life. Y'all don't think that had to do w/the play design and route trees?
I think Flip can and will dissect those plays and routes to a full understanding reasonably quick. But I also think that knowing the plays to perfection vs calling them at the most opportune moments are two vastly different things. It seemed Shanny had a knack for getting the right play called at the right time. I think that's the difference between a good X and O's coach and a good play-caller. The OC has to be both. Flip has never been a play-caller. That will be his test.
--Also, are people forgetting how quickly Hoyer read defenses and got rid of the ball. Are you forgetting how we used the quick passing game to move the ball on people? McCown is notorious for holding the ball too long. What does a quick release vs a guy who takes too much time do the perception of how people view the OL?
I hope the masses won't blame the OL but they probably will. I wonder how much pressure on McCown attributed to his holding onto the ball. Maybe he gets a quicker release with a better OL affording him less pressure, maybe not.
I heard we were going to keep the ZBS, but that was right when we hired Flip. I have NOT heard anything about that recently. Can one of you who seem so sure we are keeping the same exact system that Shanny had w/the ZBS
We are going to have a ZBS which in this day and age not a big surprise.
Same exact as Shanny...no way. Actually Shanny ran an OutsideZBS Scheme. Which I never heard mentioned regarding this Offense. There will be movement, there might be a stretch play? A Zone blocking scheme with a traditional FB??? Hard to say till we see it. ZBS just means specific doubles set up with 2nd tier responsibilities. Scheme play design. also I know so many are comparing to the Oakland raiders well flip had nothing to do with that design...quite frankly I've hear one team in the look of our new O and the team mentioned was CGO with Trestman's O. Probably will be a combo of looks.
WRs last year were able to get open don't see why not this year. Route Tree? or fact Defenses were playing the run? Probably both. won't be hard to come out with good route trees. You and I could probably sit down and make about 20 plays in several hours. Execution...do we have the QB who can?
I am confused Vers cause you praise Shanny for a good run game...then you give us stats saying other wise. Just confuses me. Was it good or Bad?
I just hope we can pull out some early games while we have he gel time needed for the O. Predicting the outcome might be easy to some...not me. Good or bad I can't say for sure.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
People need to step back and take a hard look a Shanahan. First, he was unemployed last year if Pettine didn't hire. Second, would we all think this switch over to Flip is a big issue if Shanahan was hired as a HC?
I think Shanahan was our best OC in a long time. Shanahan was using Cleveland. You are kidding yourself if you think differently. If Cleveland won two more games last year, he most likely had a shot at a HC. If not, he knew if Browns looked half respectable, he gets hired as a OC on a better team.
Flip wants to be here. I have no idea how he'll do. Right now his head is focused on being a great OC. He'll more likely be here for two or three years. As soon as Cleveland starts winning, all these coordinators are gone. Switching coordinators should be a norm, right?
My personal opinion. I think Flip is bringing the run game back into the picture. Not so much old school more like what Chip Kelly is doing up tempo balanced attack. I think Browns are building an offense with a lot pieces. I think our offense, play makers, will look like a hockey team. You'll have guys coming in and out trying to get favorable match-ups. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Manziel and McCown switch up throughout a game.
Looking at the makeup of our play makers. You got tall, small, fast, and hands receivers. You got brute, speed, and shifty running backs. You have play action and pocket QBs. If the OL can keep up with constant scheme and tempo change, this offense can produce. Stat guys will look puzzled, because there will not be any individual standouts. Saints and Patriots already do something similar. Browns are going to do it with mediocre QBs.
I think Shanny is in the big 4 for OC since the return. Bruce had very little to work with and that team in 2002 could score with guys that didnt deserve to be in the league. Chud had DA, K2 and BE all in the probowl. Norv got Gordon and Cam in the probowl but we had no RB worth a roster spot until week 15 or 16.
Shanny had imho the most talent but it was such young talent. I mean he was starting a rookie LG, best receiver was a 5-8 rookie, best rbs were rookies. Cam was kicked in the back of the head and never recovered.
I thought Shanny's weakness was end of game playcalling. I loved 90% of his calls but i really disagreed with a lot of his 4th quarter decision making especially early in the year when we were running all over teams and all we needed was to eat some clock and he was chucking it. Made no sense.
We will have to wait and see about Flip but all the movement stuff is stuff he learned from Saunders. I think Flip is a Borg, he assimilates the things he likes and discards the rest.
I think he is trying to make his version of the greatest show on turf but that athleticism gets neutralized often due to weather and varying conditions. Plus Other than Gabriel and the backs we dont have a lot of athletes. Its why Pryor has a shot to steal a spot.
I was actually surprised at how little we used motion last year. IIRC, less than 5% of our snaps had motion involved.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
IN 2013, we had complete turmoil at the QB position, has a disaster at WR, and had no RB talent. We had a whopping 4 rushing TD, and IIRC, we didn't get our 1st until week 11 or 12. We scored 308 points in 2013
Last year we improved at QB, RB, and WR, and also had a defense that turned the ball over much more than the 2013 defense did. We went from scoring 4 rushing TD to scoring 11 rushing TD. Last year 1we scored 299 points.
We had so many advantages, last year compared to 2013, yet our scoring went down.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I am confused Vers cause you praise Shanny for a good run game...then you give us stats saying other wise. Just confuses me. Was it good or Bad?
Did I say our run game was good? Hmmmmm...let me go look. Be right back....
....Here is what I said:
--I wonder how Flip and company are going to know how to run "exactly" the same ZBS run scheme that Shanny did? That system took years to refine. Shanny got most of it from his father. You just don't simply become a master of something in less than a year.
I think the design was very good. I don't think anyone can argue that, can they? That system has been successful for decades. All those "great" Denver backs didn't do so hot when they went somewhere else. How did Morris do last year in Washington?
I believe there were some givens that we can take away from last year:
--the design was good.
--the running game looked better when teams actually respected our passing game. The running game was hurt once the passing game faltered.
--Unlike Norv, Shanny did a very good job of still sticking w/the running game throughout games. He never abandoned it.
Now, go back up to point number 2. My original point in all of this was that it's much harder to run the ball when your passing game is inept. Rushing for a lot of yards is nice, but if you don't win games, that stat is meaningless. You gotta have balance. Both the running game and passing game at least has to be respected by your opponent.
Now, I'm sure you--and others--will disagree w/me on this one, but I think our QB sucks, we have no real threat at TE, no real big-play WR, and an OC who has never called plays before. That doesn't translate into a respectable passing game and I have come to the conclusion that this offense isn't likely to be very good.
I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong. I just think the odds of us having a decent offense are very, very slim.
Isn't it a safe assumption saying Browns were very young last year? Not necessarily saying age. You had Hoyer who never played a full year and Manziel. A pretty green receiver corp along with two rookie RBs.
Offense struggled in pre-season. I guess my question is it a bit much adding motion to the offense? Right around the time Mack was injured it seem like the offense was starting to gel.
How many remember last year in training camp the side of the ball who played best in practice wore the orange jersey? How many times did the offense win? Once or twice? I think that will be a good litmus test how this offense will play. Ideally we want to see flip-flopping between the two.
Starting slow here. McCown and Hoyer are basically the same guy.
Not going into stats here. Just a surface comparison.
They are below average quarterbacks that are good enough to hold a roster spot and stay in the league. They have been around long enough to understand NFL offenses and defenses. They are good enough to be spot starters but are essentially backups.
Hoyer relies upon fast reads and getting the ball out quickly. McCown throws a better deep ball but overall they are pretty close in accuracy 56% Hoyer, 58% McCown.
If we can establish the run game McCown is good enough to complete some passes. He hopefully is accurate enough to keep the defenses honest if he can be kept in favorable down and distance numbers.
No sugar coating it McCown is not the guy to lead the offense game in and out. The Browns passing game is not going to scare anyone. We will not be a team that can get down by a big score and expect to come back.
Start with playing good defense. Keeping the score down. Get turnovers. Dominate time of possession with ground game. And do not turn the ball over.
Sounds simple. Sounds like the formula to win any game. But in the end it does not work if we can not run the ball.
My problem w/your stats is that you always leave things out and use them to trick people.
Are you really not considering the loss of three Pro Bowlers? You don't think that had anything to do w/the stats?
You use stats like that, but refuse to acknowledge 10 and 6 vs 1 and 15?
Not at all. We lost Mack for 11 games and Gordon for 10 last year. We also lost Cameron for 6 games.
However, from 2013 to 2014 we added Hoyer for most of the year, and we also added Bitonio to the OL, Dray to the TE position, Hawkins, Austin, and Gabriel to the WR position, West and Crowell to the RB spot. (and Tate early on)
We improved our offensive personnel a great deal from 2013 to 2014. Despite this, our scoring decreased. (and also despite the defense scoring 3 TD, and a Safety)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I don't expect Shanny's absence to have much impact on the use of the ZBS.
1. The club owns all of Shanahan's work product while he was here. His scheme, playbook everything he brought or developed while in Cleveland belongs to the team, not him.
2. Shanahan is an OC he is not a OL coach. We retained the coaches who implemented the system last year. These are the coaches who work directly with the players on technique.
3. Flip said in one of his first interviews after being hired that his offense will use both ZBS and Gap-blocking schemes.
Hey Tony: At the beginning of the offseason, John DeFilippo insisted that he would incorporate successful elements of last year's offense into this season's. I'm specifically concerned about the zone-blocking scheme. I know media access to OTAs/practices has been limited, but have you seen evidence that he'll keep his word? Can the zone scheme provide some continuity for the upcoming season?
-- Robert, Los Angeles, CA
Hey Robert: The linemen have said that elements of the zone-blocking scheme are in place for the running game. But DeFilippo will incorporate other blocking schemes for pass protection. When a coach says he will continue doing something that was the expertise of a coach before him, sometimes it is easier said than done.
We switched guys for guys. We didn't improve our talent a great deal and we didn't this year either.
Wow, I absolutely have to disagree with you.
Think back to 2013. Think back to the offense that year. Maybe you have blocked it out because of how bad it was, and I know a lot of people probably did ..... but think back anyway .....
QB: Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell, Brian Hoyer. The less said, the better.
RB: Richardson, (for a few games) McGahee (ugh) Bobby Rainey, Fozzy Whittaker, Edwin Baker, Chris Ogbannoya. Other than Trent, the rest combined for 20 games and 197 yards rushing last year. They were awful, except for Baker, and he had very little to go on .,.... he just looked better than the rest of the junk we threw out there.
WR: We had Gordon for 14 games, and that was it. Remember these names? Greg Little, Davone Bess, Josh Cooper, Armanti Edwards, Travis Benjamin, Brian Tyms, and Tori Gurley.
Last year it was what ...... week 5 or 6 before we even had a dropped pass? We got Gordon back in week 11, and after a 1 week explosion, we seemed to have no idea how to use him on the field. Our WR corps ran wide open frequently last year. Was part of that scheme? Sure. Was part of that hard work on the part of the receivers? Absolutely. Our WR corps, especially Austin, Hawkins, and Gabriel, was a huge upgrade over 2013. I think that Gabriel has special talent. Even without Gordon, this group was upgraded.
At QB, I think that starting Hoyer for most of the year was an upgrade over Weeden and Campbell.
In 2013, at TE, we had Cameron (917) and Barnidge (127) combine for 1044 yards. Last year we had Cameron, Barnidge, and Dray combine for 822 yards. Our passing TD went down last year, but to an extent that was by decision, as we chose to run the ball a great deal when we got down close.
At RB, last year, we had a 3 headed monster, and we needed to find out what we had. We started with Tate, and he got hurt early on. When he returned from injury, he was not the same. Tate ran for only 333 yards and 4 TD before he fell apart. West led the team in rushing with 673 yards, and Crowell had 607 yards. Between West and Crowell, they averaged just over 4 yards/carry. Oddly enough, this was the same as 2013, but there were reasons why we were more effective last year. 1st, we were able to run the ball down close last year, and were able to score. 2nd, we didn't use as many trick plays last year. In 1013, QB rushes and trick plays accounted for 377 yards. (out of 1383 total) In 2014, the number of yards on rushes other than by RB dropped to only 113 yards, yet our rushing yards increased to 1728 overall. Our running game, using the RBs, improved a grat deal from 2013 to last year. The 2 young RBs themselves were a big part of why. They had some ups and downs as they struggled with maturity, but they were a huge upgrade from 2013.
So, let's put it all together:
QB: 2014 wins by a fairly wide margin. It's not so much that Hoyer was great for all of last year, but he was a big improvement over Weeden, Campbell, and the Hoyer of 2013. We did not throw the ball as much in 2014 as we did in 2013. (502 pass attempts last year compared to 681 in 2013) I think tat, overall,we were more productive at the QB spot last year though.
RB: 2014 wins, and it's really not even close. We had 2 nice young backs last year, with some ups and downs, but remember how bad we were at the position in 2013. It was awful.
WR: 2013 had 1 WR, Josh Gordon. Gordon had a career season, one for the ages. Other than Gordon, who did we have? Last year we had Austin, Hawkins, and Gabriel. If we look at a single receiver, then 2013 wins. If we look at depth and overall production, I think that we have to give the tip of the scales to 2014.
TE: Cameron had a fantastic year in 2013. He was hurt in 2014. We added Dray in 2014, and he was productive when called upon. We had better depth in 2014, but I think that 2013 wins overall.
OL: Well, this is a hard one. In 2013, we had an OL of Thomas/Greco/Mack/Lauvao, and Schwartz. We allowed 47 sacks on 681 pass attempts, and could not run the ball. (though certainly not all their fault) In 2014, we started out with Thomas/Bitonio/Mack/Greco/Schwartz. This OL was absolutely destroying teams. Then Mack got hurt. However, we still ran the ball better, and we allowed only 31 sacks. (but in only 502 pass attempts) In 2013, that equates to one sack every 13.9 pass attempts. In 2014, we allowed 1 sack every 16.2 pass attempts. I think that 2014 wins that category. (even with the injury to Mack)
So, my score is this:
2014 wins on QB, RB, OL, and WR.
2013 wins on TE.
I think that we improved out talent a great deal from 2013 to 2014.
Now, what we have done this year is hard to evaluate without having played a game ..... but I think this:
At WR we lost Austin, and added Bowe, Hartline, Mayle, and Pryor. We can't really count Gordon as a loss, because he didn't give us much last year. This look like a position that should be upgraded over last year. There is talent here, and it appears that we should have better depth.
QB: Who knows? Hoyer was Hoyer, and I have no idea, realistically, what to expect from McCown. This is definitely a wait and see.
RB: We return West, Crowell, and Winston. (who the coaches reportedly like) We added Duke Johnson, who looks like a real talent, and who should add a dynamic upgrade in the passing game. Wealso return Shaun Droughns, but I think that he will have a hard time making this team. We also added Malcolm Johnson at FB, and I think that he is going to be a big piece of the puzzle. It will be interesting to see how this position washes out.
OL: We get Mack back from injury, and we added Erving. The OL should be an absolute team strength, with improved depth.
TE: You know that I really like Housler. I think that he will be a guy who will give us similar things as Cameron did. Upgrade, overall? Maybe not. Upgrade over 400 or so yards that Cameron gave us last year? I think so.
It really does all come down to the QB spot, and whether McCown can do enough to win low scoring games. I think that our defense if going to be greatly improved, with an extra year in the system, a return to health by certain players, plus several new players who will be better fits. (like Shelton, Starks, Cooper, (who I also really like) and Orchard)
I fully expect us to win 9 or more games this coming season. I can't wait to get started.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Good reads so far but let's get something clear. We absolutely had a good running game last year... until Mack got hurt. Then we struggled. If Mack doesn't go down last year who knows what happens.
I expect us to be good running the ball. I'm hopeful the rest of the offense can do its job... not worried about our run game.
People need to step back and take a hard look a Shanahan. First, he was unemployed last year if Pettine didn't hire. Second, would we all think this switch over to Flip is a big issue if Shanahan was hired as a HC?
I think Shanahan was our best OC in a long time. Shanahan was using Cleveland. You are kidding yourself if you think differently. If Cleveland won two more games last year, he most likely had a shot at a HC. If not, he knew if Browns looked half respectable, he gets hired as a OC on a better team.
Flip wants to be here. I have no idea how he'll do. Right now his head is focused on being a great OC. He'll more likely be here for two or three years. As soon as Cleveland starts winning, all these coordinators are gone. Switching coordinators should be a norm, right?
My personal opinion. I think Flip is bringing the run game back into the picture. Not so much old school more like what Chip Kelly is doing up tempo balanced attack. I think Browns are building an offense with a lot pieces. I think our offense, play makers, will look like a hockey team. You'll have guys coming in and out trying to get favorable match-ups. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Manziel and McCown switch up throughout a game.
Looking at the makeup of our play makers. You got tall, small, fast, and hands receivers. You got brute, speed, and shifty running backs. You have play action and pocket QBs. If the OL can keep up with constant scheme and tempo change, this offense can produce. Stat guys will look puzzled, because there will not be any individual standouts. Saints and Patriots already do something similar. Browns are going to do it with mediocre QBs.
I really like where you are going with this!
You know, a lot of people assume our passing game is going to take a hit because Jordan left. Personally I don't think it will because despite his potential, he wasn't too terribly productive because he either was hurt and not on the field, or kept falling down. I view a guy like him as a luxury, not a necessity, so I'm not concerned with Housler having to become his clone. In fact, I'd be just as happy if we had a TE who can run block well enough that increases our RB's YPC average by 1-1.5 yrds. I mention the TE position out of nowhere because it segues in to this recurring thought I've been having about where Erving will fit in...
Honestly, if he's as good a talent as he's built up to be, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some 6 lineman looks this year, like I think it was the Patriots were throwing out there in the playoffs.
I'm not going to say this will lead us to the playoffs, or even that its sustainable through an entire season, but while we have to wait another season for the QB issue, why not improve what we have now?
Besides, Mangini managed to win 4 in a row by pounding the ball....
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
If my confidence in what the team is doing is supposed to be shaken by nebulous comments from Tony Grossi it isn't working.
the players said we are going to be running up the middle more than last year. the coaching say passing the ball to the RBs more this year. different blocking for pass protect.
basically a whole different offense.
i just dont think we will use shannys zone blocking all that much. sure will not be a staple of the offense.
Last edited by pblack18707; 06/28/1508:23 AM.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Yeah I did "ASSume" on that good run game thing...my bad. I think when you stated the word Master at it...that is where my ASSumption was formed.
The harder to run the ball when you passing game is inept...I've been saying that for around a YEAR. Obvious teams are loading up to stop the run...and saying ok Cleveland let see your QB who hasn't established themselves - BEAT US if they can!
McCown Sucking...with certainty. As stated I looked at the few things he does well and we are looking to make that part of our system so I don't know what to expect. I know execution not play calling is the key in football. I know right now without games to play McCown is great in getting the team up to speed on the new O and close to good execution. Can he come through on game day??? Unlike you I cannot say with certainty one way or another.
I liked Shanny and gave him his due respect for X's n O's I thought he spaced out the WRs nice. But still when I see teams putting 8-9 in the box and we run play action and the Corners also peeking into the back field. It didn't surprise me looking back that we had WRs galore open. I don't see that changing. But I cannot see into the future as well as some. I can't predict disaster. But since 1999 its a pretty safe prediction even without any thought into it...lol
Hey you know me by now, I'm going to pick the odds opposite and go with that. I can see how it can happen. I cannot predict the execution of it.
jmho - Vers your opinions haven't changed but I think speaking for most of the board. Your presentation has changed and it is most welcomed by the masses. Hope you don't take that as an insult...again message board is not the best for exact communication.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Just a disclaimer...."I Liked SHANNY" was in his system I liked. His X's and O's - I never liked him as a leader/person. I think cause I and everyone knew he was here temporarily and as mentioned he was not known to play well with others. So before the hypocrite finger is pointed. The I like Shanny was for his Football not as our Leader of the Offense.
jmHonest Truth.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Now, I'm sure you--and others--will disagree w/me on this one, but I think our QB sucks, we have no real threat at TE, no real big-play WR, and an OC who has never called plays before. That doesn't translate into a respectable passing game and I have come to the conclusion that this offense isn't likely to be very good.
I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong. I just think the odds of us having a decent offense are very, very slim.
I disagree with part of your opinion. QB scares me to death, I think people will be suprised with our TE play this year, and just like I said early and often before last season started our WR's will be just fine and suprise a lot of people. I have way more faith in our OC than most people do on this board. IMO the kid is very bright, very talented, and won't be out worked. He will learn and adjust very quickly. Our entire offense is going to sink or swim with our QB play.
Grossi just has zero information when it comes to the Browns. He is a name and thats why espn hired him but he really has no ties to the cleveland Browns anymore. I trust most people on this board far more than I do with anything coming from Grossi. The Browns have 90% moved on from Grossi not Manziel and it will not be surprising if his press credentials are revoked soon.
I dont think we are hurting at TE because Dray and Barnidge gives you the steve Heiden that is gonna block to they are carted off the field and they have excellent hands. They are limited physically but both are good players. Kid from AZ Housler, I have watched a few highlights of the kid and just can away unimpressed. Bibbs stays healthy we got a good one.
This kid is healthy he would have been the first TE off the board and I loved Maxx but this kid has a special quality about him. I may be wrong but he has a chance to be this years Crow/Gabriel.
If my confidence in what the team is doing is supposed to be shaken by nebulous comments from Tony Grossi it isn't working.
Wait, so we are supposed to trust you instead of things the players have said?
Since you want to go there...
I was speaking about me and only me. What you believe or trust doesn't mean jack to me. I don't need or seek your validation. But be assured I'll keep posting regardless.
Also to be fair to myself, this notion of player comments wasn't even brought up until AFTER my post that you find laughable.
I'll go further, unless these vague player comments that you or no one else is providing quotes for say explicitly that we are not using ZBS I'm sure as hell not at all impressed by your declaration of what the team will or won't do.
Your just a petulant poster with a keyboard. In spite of your insufferable bluster your just another ordinary poster.
If my confidence in what the team is doing is supposed to be shaken by nebulous comments from Tony Grossi it isn't working.
the players said we are going to be running up the middle more than last year. the coaching say passing the ball to the RBs more this year. different blocking for pass protect.
basically a whole different offense.
i just dont think we will use shannys zone blocking all that much. sure will not be a staple of the offense.
To be clear this reply is more about Vers attempt to be clever at my expense than anything.
I don't put myself out there as any kind of X's and O's guru but its my understanding that ZBS is for run blocking not pass sets. The possible exception being a ZBS team to show ZBS intially on play-action but again I'm no guru so I don't know. Running inside more often or less or the same in and of itself reveals nothing about the blocking scheme as you can run between the tackles effectively employing ZBS.
This will be the third time in two threads I've mentioned that Flip said from his own mouth that we will ALSO employ Gap-blocking techniques in his offense.
If my confidence in what the team is doing is supposed to be shaken by nebulous comments from Tony Grossi it isn't working.
Wait, so we are supposed to trust you instead of things the players have said?
Yeah, I'm back. Mainly because people allow you to get away with your BS way too much and I'm not in the mood for being one of your enablers.
So I went to the link to the Hey, Tony that is supposedly so damning to my assertion about the use of ZBS. Below is the actuall content of the question and Grossi's response.
Hey Tony: At the beginning of the offseason, John DeFilippo insisted that he would incorporate successful elements of last year's offense into this season's. I'm specifically concerned about the zone-blocking scheme. I know media access to OTAs/practices has been limited, but have you seen evidence that he'll keep his word? Can the zone scheme provide some continuity for the upcoming season?
-- Robert, Los Angeles, CA
Hey Robert: The linemen have said that elements of the zone-blocking scheme are in place for the running game. But DeFilippo will incorporate other blocking schemes for pass protection. When a coach says he will continue doing something that was the expertise of a coach before him, sometimes it is easier said than done.
So Grossi ACTUALLY says that players said yes, the ZBS is being used. Then he adds his own little editorial spin on their comments. Hhhmmm, here's laughing at you Vers... for being so half fast
