It has been said that it is a passing league.

Well that is the case for the teams that have the quarterback. It also helps when you have a good OL and some receivers that can make plays.

The Cleveland Browns have to run the ball.

We have a good O-line and some runners.

We have a quarterback that needs the run game in order to be effective. Our receivers as a group are not going to scare anyone.

Playing in the AFC North we play outside and as the season wears on the weather becomes a factor and being able to run the ball helps.

When you can run the ball and the team you play knows you can and are unable to stop you; then you can dictate.

The Lombardi sweep was effective because the defense knew it was coming and it did not matter. They still ran it effectively. Execution, talent and determination.

If the Browns commit to the run game and prove they can run the ball when the defense knows it's coming their passing game can be effective.

McCown is nothing special. He is not going to be a passing leader. He is a veteran guy who knows the game. He can throw the ball to the right guy on time. That can happen if play action is for real. The defense has to bite on the run. Positive down and distance helps the cause.

If McCown is in third and long all the time it will be a long season.

still can't believe seattle didn't run the ball.

I'm sure that is the plan, but it's hard to run the ball when teams don't respect your passing game and stack the LOS against the run.

I'm so focused on the run game that I'll say the success or failure to run the ball will make/break our offense, maybe, keyword maybe, even the entire season in terms of wins/loss.

This.

The leading rushing team in the NFL last year was the Seattle Seahawks. They had the 3rd fewest passing yards in the league last year.

2nd leading rushing team last year was the Jets ..... yes, the Jets who started Geno Smith and Michael Vick at QB, and who were the worst passing team in the NFL last year.

The #4 best rushing team was the Niners. The were also the 4th worst passing team.

Next was Houston who was the 10th worse passing team.

Teams can run without being great passing teams. The passing game's value is that it allows for quick scores.

There is no team that will respect the Browns passing game.

In order for the Browns to have success this year with this team they will have to be able to run the ball.

As stated they will have to be able to run the ball even though the defense knows it's coming.

Of course it is not ideal. Teams will stack the LOS. It will still be a hat on a hat. They will have to block past the LOS. It can be done.

Mack is really good at blocking past the the line. He is very athletic. The receivers will need to block. The TE's will need to block. They can use the runners as pass catchers and extend the run game. It has to become a frame of mind.

I think there's a special note to add about a teams effective running attack can only work when the opposing defense respects your passing game, that's usually true, unless you're really good at running the ball.

If you're good at running the ball, it doesn't matter if they respect your passing attack. You can run the ball because you win most of the battles at the line of scrimmage, period. The problem is when you're mediocre at running the ball and you're passing attack is also bad.

I think the counter argument to building a run-first team, even if you're good at it, it takes up a lot of time, it's boring, it's hard to commit to the run most of the time (when you're first down run came up a bit short), and you're battling the percentages.

I think it's the best thing for this team to focus on the run. Grind it out, slow the game down, beat them up, and then bring in a great D to keep them off the board. Make them play our game, not theirs.

We have a quarterback that needs the run game in order to be effective. Our receivers as a group are not going to scare anyone.

Actually this common NFL theory does entirely apply to the Browns...could be good or could be bad.

Point in case: Why do QBs/Air game wish for an effective run game: Answer: to have them drop 8 in the box.

Well we have all the luxuries of a good run game - 8,9 in the box play action very effective.

We have this effect from series one, I expect Defenses similar to last year not respect the QB and play run D Once again saying - QB beat us.

You have an excellent point on us being in 3rd and long with lousy runs on the first 2 downs...so don't get me wrong it is important. point blank we will not march down the field via Run only. We will need McCown or whoever to be able to make teams pay for over playing the run!

We however don't have to gain a yard to have 8 in the box and them all peaking in for the run. It will be the game plan against us. When our run game was cooking we were able to score via the run to finish drives. I would like to see us with a successful run game in the 4th qtr and we have the lead. That would be MONEY!

McCown did great w/play action with the Bears...He did terrible with very little play action with the Bucs. Games needing Offense will have to live and die by McCowns success with teams overplaying the run...If he does, we should own the teams as 7 in the box we will run like crazy...

So us Browns are Ass backwards in the usual theory for our O.

jmho

If we're going to be running a similar scheme to what we did last year on offense (no huddle, zone running, play-action heavy) I expect the receivers and McCown to have some level of success just as Hoyer did last year with the weak cast of receivers we had. I'm not so much worried about Hartline, Bowe, Hawkins and Gabriel as I am the tightend position. I think our WR's will be better than people think, maybe not elite, but productive. I'm in 100% agreement though, for our offense to have ANY success at all, it's going to be running the football...

I love our RB's and outside of Mitchell Schwartz I love our offensive line. So I'm excited to a degree to see how well they all work together this year.

One of my favorite reactions to Spygate was Mark Schlereth.

He basically said, that it didn't matter if the defense knew what play you were running..

If you executed it properly, it would still work..

Does it give the defense an advantage, knowing we are mostly going to be a running team? Of course..

But we have one of, if not the best, offensive lines in the league.. Let them do their jobs..

And if teams really want to stack the box. You run slants, and throw in a play action..

Our WRs are good.. Yes.. I said good.. They will be able to find openings..

And if the defense is really that focused on the run.. The WRs will be able to make plays..

I must say I'm a little surprised by the thread. The coaches all the way down to the fan base has stated we will be a run first team. That our O will be predicated on the run.

Seems like something everyone knew and recognized anyway.

You love to use stats, but I think you often use them to mislead people.

Seattle was capable of throwing the ball. People can dis Wilson all they want, but he can complete passes when asked to do so, and that threat helps the running game.

The other teams?

The Jets stunk. What's your point.

SF? They had viable receivers and a lot better qb than we have. They had two very good RBs.

Houston had Andre Johnson.

Other than Seattle, how many of those teams made the playoffs? And do we have anything close to Russel Wison?

Oh, and here is a stat. We were ranked 17th in rushing the ball. We had Shanny, who always has a good running game.

Not sure how you guys are concluding that we are going to have a great running game?

And our OL is much better at pass blocking than run blocking.

I have seen this movie so many times. I don't see it playing out any different this year. In fact, I think this is one of the least talented offenses we have had........and that is saying something.

Is there something else you would like to talk about?

Like how great we will be passing the ball.

If this team is unable to establish themselves week in and week out as a running team we may as well pack it in.

Fact is I have no problem with running the ball and playing defense.

If or when we get a legit quarterback who can actually be the difference I will come full circle.

And the best defense. If their defense was a sieve, they'd have to be able to throw the ball to make it anywhere in the postseason. Most of the teams with anemic passing numbers resemble the Jets. Unless you've got a great defense, like the 49ers or Seahawks. Plenty of teams in the NFL are equipped to stack the box and stonewall Marshawn Lynch. It's just hard to commit to that with Russell Wilson under center.

Oh, and here is another stat:

Only two teams in the entire NFL had a worse yds per carry average than we did.

So yeah, we should be easily be able to make the playoffs by running the ball over and over when the other team knows its coming because they have zero respect for our passing game.

Playoffs............here we come!

cool what seed you think we're going to get?

Same seed we've always gotten for our money - magic beanstalk.

Yeah, I do like stats .... because you are what your production says you are.

Look you said this:



I showed where this may not be 100% true. The Jets ran the ball, seemingly at will. They averaged 4.5 yards/rush, and had 112 rushing 1st downs. (3rd in the NFL)

San Francisco has trouble passing the ball last year, but they ran the ball effectively.

We started out running the ball very well last year, until Mack was hurt. I think that Shanahan's biggest failure last year was nor adjusting to the loss of Alex mack in the run game.

If we can just be capable in the pass game, then we should be able to run the ball. Before Mack got hurt last year, we ran very well. In the 1st 5 games last year, we ran for 183 yards against Pittsburgh, 122 against the Saints, 91 against the Ravens, 175 against Tennessee, and 158 against the Steelers. We opened up strong on the ground, until Mack got hurt.

People talk about the comeback in the opening game, and it was fantastic, but we passes for 206 yards in that game. We has 202 passing yards against the Saints. 284 against the Ravens, 285 against the Titans, and 210 against the Steelers.

We wanted to run the ball, and we did. We didn't kill teams with the pass, we were just competent. I think that a team with a great OL and very good RB can run the ball in this league. We will be that kind of team. We will be built in the mold of the Seahawks, Niners, Jets and Texans. Play great defense, and run the ball. We made upgrades to do just these things. There is no reason to think that we won't be able to do so.

We are also going to run an offense that will use players in the passing game as receivers from all positions. We will spread teams out wide as well as deep.

We also have a QB who was able to throw the deep ball better than Hoyer did last year. As much as I liked Hoyer early on, it was beyond sad when we would have receivers running so wide open that about half the guys on the board could hit them with a pass, and Hoyer would throw some duck.

Oh, and you don't have to tell me about Wilson. I was probably one of his earliest champions on this board.



You didn't ask about making the playoffs, you said that teams that don't have a respectable passing game can't run the ball. I showed that this was not accurate. A team can run the ball even when they can't pass it very well, if they are constructed correctly. They might not win, because big plays generally happen in the passing game. but a defensive team that can run the ball can succeed in the NFL, and we have seen it with teams that have moves away from wide open passing games, to controlled passing games, combined with a great run game and a great defense ..... which is our plan in Cleveland.

Game situations call for different kinds of attacks. A team is only as strong as the weakest length in its chain.
It may be better of a plan to remember to not give up on the run too early; or to " establish " the run game.

Teams have been trying to " establish" the run in games for a long time. Even divisional foes have published after wins that they went in trying to "establish the run.

Even though the Dawgtalkers are enamored with the O-line of the Browns, it doesn't mean the Browns O-line is an unstoppable force, or that they will always perform the same. Neither does it mean that West and Crowe will have the same success getting into the end zone they had last year.

Plus, most teams best run, to run out the clock with a lead. You have to have a freaking lead to do that, and the best way to get a lead in the first place is to score Tds and

Like it or not, the truth of the NFL is the most powerful way, year in and year out to get touchdowns, is with a great quarterback great receiver combo hooking up for a catch in or into the end zone.
I mean it's more reliable than the matriculating run game needing several snaps in a row to mosey down the field for a score
I mean its' more reliable than a star defensive player, best in the league, creating fumbles or interceptions that end up pick 6's or other defensive scores.
I mean it's more reliable than a star return man, best in the league returning kickoffs or punts into the end-zone.

Bottom line, if you fall behind by 3 td's, even early in the first half, you're going to fall into the trap of calling passing plays to try to get back into the game.

Saying you are just going to run the ball, is like telling a team late in an NBA or College basketball game to just not get fouled by the other team, because if you let the other team foul you, then you'll have to make foul shots, and the clock will stop, giving them a chance to shrink the lead while using less of the remaining game clock.

It's like saying I'm going to play monopoly and not land on any of the other players properties that have hotels on them.

Or what are you gonna do when your run game doesn't work, or when your o-line gets it's tail kicked, or when your backs are fumbling,
You've got to be able to pass the ball, you've got to be able to make foul shots, you've got to be able to drive the lane, hit 3's, you've got to be able to do it all!
It's not a one dimensional game.

So they're best reminded not to give up on the run, not to give up on the run, and to continue to run even if it's appearing not to be effective, but you can't give up on the others too.

Vers one thing that i want to say on this is that we kept our OL and RB coaches that for the browns is major continuity lol. Flip is keeping what you love and adding what I love. it may work, it may not but I love what he is doing.

He watched those stretched runs and thought damn, this stuff works but lets add more inside power runs. `I think this is really gonna help Crow and our Ol.

He is also adding the Coryell vertical passing attack with deep balls setting up the run after catches play behind it.

His system may be great and in the same breath may be a total disaster but I reallly like what he is doing and keeping some great coaches really shows me something.

The Seahawks and 49ers had major contributions from their QBs in the run game (Wilson had 849 rushing yards, Kaepernick 639). That skews the ranking quite a bit. I am guessing that McCown won't be rushing for many yards.

The Texans ran for a lot of yards, but weren't all that successful (3.9 yards per carry).

The Jets I don't really understand. They somehow ran the ball successfully and had a good defense. But they also finished 4-12.

I would guess we finish in the top ten in rushing attempts and yards, but are not all that successful on a per carry basis.

This is why I believe Manziel started last year. A lot of Shanahan's offense gave options for the QB to run. Naked bootlegs.. QB keepers.. Options plays. It was a big part of his offense in Washington, and you could see the QB run options in Hoyer's bootleg passing. Problem was.. Hoyer had come just come off a season ending injury and did not take the run options.

Utilizing the run options was something Manziel was more than capable of doing. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, when Manziel got into the game this was not taken advantage of.

Oh no. . .

1. If we rely on the QB to be part of the run game that just will not go in the NFL...we are not college and after 2,3 years move onto the next guy. If we have a QB we want him to last here YEARS. A running QB in the NFL will become a DAMAGED QB in the NFL. Lynch is an amazing RB for Seattle. That is whee the attention goes from the D and he just spits in their face and keeps on rolling.

Vers...we agree on this although I think with playaction we will get a good result from McCown not great but good enough to win games. Our Defense has the potential to climb up the ladder of Defensive prowess.

I don't see anything lacking as in talent on the Offense except for the Uncertainty of yet again a new QB and a new O System.

Note to all it will not be the same system as last year. Yes, we are keeping a ZBS scheme. Yes, I expect play action to be a big part of the O especially with Teams game planning to stop the run game.

But if we do not connect on those passes when teams are playing run...yeah 3rd n long is important of course but when they are playing PASS D of course it will be more difficult and the odds of a OK to mediocre QB succeeding is not that high. Its what we do when we pass on downs that teams have 8 and peeking in the box play run. That will be the key for this O. That is where Vers and I see it a little different - his vision tells him there will be little success then. My Vision says that is petty much when McCown actually has succeeded so I have higher hopes.

But the fact is. We don't need that yardage and run success to get teams to put 8 in the box...the RUN Strategy. We will have that from SERIES ONE. The ONLY WAY this can become a dynamic Offense in 2015 is if McCown is able to rip them apart when they got only 3 in serious coverage while the rest are thinking run first. If he is successful that will bring 7 in the box and our run game can take over. Sometimes football is pretty simple.

But you can bank on all teams game plans against us will be STOP THE RUN - And put it out there...Come on Browns you want to win your QB will have to produce!

jmho but more fact than opinion.

Given time for this offense to gel, I fully expect it to be at least competent. The uncertainties are as eo noted...

What I expect from this O.

It is gonna be in design much closer to the Martz offense with a focus on getting guys vertical to make the bigger run after catch plays behind them. We have talent in the backfield and flip likes to run the ball but using these 2 back sets with the zone stretch run scheme is going to create more options.

2 back set with a design stretch to the right with Crow gives you that option for the run, playaction fake and with the other back slipping out to the left or into a pattern really can create a mismatch where you may have a DB having to make the solo tackle on the RB or the LB forced to shadow him in coverage and that in itself takes away one chaser from the run.

I am very fascinated by some of the stuff we are installing. We are trying to stretch the field both horizontally and vertically as well. This in theory should create some big runs up the middle and give guys like Hartline and Hawk big run after catch opportunites in the middle.

Thing is, you need a great offensive line to run this type of scheme and you need some athletes to pull it off. We have the line and we will see soon enough what type of athletes we have at these skill positions.

I think you guys are dreaming about the offense.

Rish laid a Mike Tyson quote on us a couple of weeks ago, and I think it is relevant here in regards to the Brown's offense:

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

What the hell vers I am talking about what we are trying to do on offense and this is your reply. You talk about clicks and gangs well I found yours.

Early speculation, maybe... but dreaming? No. We'll have our entire oline back, perhaps even stronger if ErVing can steal a spot, the same zone scheme and a coach/oc who has not made it a secret we will run the ball.

I don't think we're dreaming given the success of pre-Mack we had last year running and pretty much little to no changes in the group that was successful doing it last year coming into training camp fully healthy this year.

Jmo

I agree with vers...I think you guys are dreaming about the offense. Especially the Oline. Still don't know how Mack will rebound and how our rookies will be up to task in the early going this season. Just because we have Thomas 100% we've proven we can't just plug and play the rest of the oline.

There's only one rookie, and if he wins a starting job, we will be even better. If not, grecco and Schwartz will continue where they left off last year.

There won't be much "plug and play" and if there are new faces, it'll be because they beat out the competition.

I don't see where all this "concern" is coming from.

The problem with running the ball will be whether or not McCown can make teams pay for not respecting the pass. As the season wore down last year, teams run blitzed the crap out of us just daring Hoyer to beat us. The more he proved he couldn't, the more they sold out for the run. This was the biggest reason why the running game came to a halt, not the loss of Mack. There was zero respect for the passing game. And even if we were to get a little lucky, like Hoyer's long pass to Cameron, we couldn't do that enough within a game for it to matter.

The passing game has to be able to keep the defense honest. Or else it doesn't matter how great your OLine is. Teams will just sell out on the run. And if you can't make them pay for that, you will lose every single time.

My concern is the oline. I really don't like where they left off last year at all. Dream all you want it's cool, but I'm thinking deja vu.

Honest question: Are we really sure about that? I know there was early talk of keeping the ZBS, but afterwards, I haven't heard squat about it.

Oh, and I am sorry..........but I am very skeptical about Flip. Has he ever been an OC in the NFL yet? How many times has he interviewed for that position? Was he ever an OC, even at the college ranks?

He might turn out to be some hidden jewel, but the odds are we are less competent at OC than we were the past two years w/Norv and Shanny.

It is perfectly reasonable and understandable to read concern about the offense but to state especially the OL???

It just doesn't make sense. OH the OL cannot pass, catch or run with the ball. That still has to be seen if we got the personnel here for that. The OL will give them all a chance to succeed But I believe you have been suggesting a lot of our failures is due to an inferior OL...which just is not true. Joe T...underrated in his run blocking. Bitonio the real deal. Mack sure an injury but we'll see soon enough if it effects him. All we here are good things in his injury comeback. Greco highly under rated is the rodney Dangerfield of this OL. Schwartz good run blocker and all are saying much improved in pass blocking...of course seeing is believing.

We have one of the better OLs in this League. No they cannot automatically cure everything.
As stated so much will be determined on McCowns ability to do what he is supposed good at.

Tragedy? Epic tragedy I doubt. Oh I can believe if the O is OK at best. The D expectations will make that mean something...
jmho

We are keeping the same zone run schemes but adding more inside runs and also uses a lot more 2 back sets. I have been told it looks like Martz passing attack and shannahans rush attack but most everything is off the Playaction.

Imo, I think Josh will be more accurate on virtually all the throws (especially the deep ball which Hoyer had missed on many of those that should've been six pts), given the same situation Hoyer had the early part of last season (total biting on play action, nice and secure pockets and etc) and in addition, Josh will provide a small increase in scrambling abilities.

We'll see how it all unfolds.

Pettine and Flip both have stated the zbs will be implemented and identical to last year. Imo, they'd be incredibly stupid not to factoring the at-will running attack we had early part last year and use the intelligence and athleticism of our olinemen.

Oh excuse me for having some concern about the OL and discussing it in a "Run the ball" thread. LOL

You are excused...next time ask...lol

Oh am I picking on you...stand up for yourself if that is what you truly believe explain yourself a lot better than what you just stated. Cause I believe you are way off base but don't cry to me - I'm picking on you.

We all have brain farts...except I think I remember the same old theme as in Hoyer and in our Run game as in the O most the time (and I might have you mixed up with somebody else) its all the OL fault as in this case...ESPECIALLY THE OL.

Don't cry that I'm preventing you to discuss anything. This ain't a Boo Hoo moment. I'm all ears lets discuss.

Is there really reason to be concerned about the offensive line? I thought with a healthy Alex Mack that we have one of the best in the entire league? Now we added Erving and this Bowie guy to compete on the right side for time. Offensive line should be one of the few things we can be confident about on this team, right!?

Are you right, all the talking heads say we have better than average line.....remember these are our Browns...Bentley, Mack...how many games has Thomas played unhurt...could we succeed with him out...we got insurance, but ANY major player going down on O line hurts....BAD....hope we stay healthy, then I agree you are right....lucky or unlucky....we shall see....GO Browns!!!

Well, with McCown as our best QB, we sure as hell won't be a passing team, so we'd better run the damn ball.
Thanks "TEXT!"

j/c:

A few points in response to different comments:

--I agree the OL is not a concern. I will say that they are better at pass blocking than run blocking. Can't imagine anyone would dispute that.

--I heard we were going to keep the ZBS, but that was right when we hired Flip. I have NOT heard anything about that recently. Can one of you who seem so sure we are keeping the same exact system that Shanny had w/the ZBS, please provide some evidence of that? I researched it and could not find proof of any recent comments. In fact, recent articles suggest the opposite. But, I could be wrong and want to be corrected.

--I wonder how Flip and company are going to know how to run "exactly" the same ZBS run scheme that Shanny did? That system took years to refine. Shanny got most of it from his father. You just don't simply become a master of something in less than a year.

--People are still ignoring my stat of how only two teams had a worse yards per attempt rushing average than we did last year. It was probably even worse the year before. But now, we are going to have a dominant running game? Things are not adding up for me.

--Yes, Hoyer's deep ball was poor, but are we going to have WRs come as wide open this year as last? I never saw so many open WRs and TEs playing for the Browns in my life. Y'all don't think that had to do w/the play design and route trees?

--Also, are people forgetting how quickly Hoyer read defenses and got rid of the ball. Are you forgetting how we used the quick passing game to move the ball on people? McCown is notorious for holding the ball too long. What does a quick release vs a guy who takes too much time do the perception of how people view the OL?

Alrighty............I imagine the name calling of "hater," "Negative Nancy," "Gloom and Doomer," "Whiner" will begin and I will see comments like "go root for the Steelers" and "you are trying to 'vanquish' other posters," etc will begin, but please tell me in each and every one of my bullet points was I NOT talking football?

I agree 100% that you are talking football. I believe everyone one of your points are legitimate.

From everything I've gathered, the ZBS will be the main focus but will be blended in with some in line blocking for inside running. I don't remember where I read that but I did see it recently.

I believe the difference in holding the ball verses a quick read and react is very much like comparing Weeden to Hoyer in that aspect.

I don't believe you can expect a first time OC to come in here and duplicate a scheme that was built by Senior Shanahan then handed down to his son. Some aspects may be somewhat similar, but his entire scheme would be very difficult for someone with very little experience to duplicate.

I believe you hit on some very valid and legitimate concerns.

See this is the Vers I love to debate with.

1. Top 2 or 3 in pass blocking top 5 or 6 in run blocking when these guys were healthy. We both ripped the hell out of farmer last year for his turd fest he called depth and now we atleast have a 6th man for the OL, I dont think we have a 7th but we do have 6.

2. It was in one of those Flip interviews when he said we were keeping the same system but adding more inside gap runs. Trying to remember his exact term but I just got off work and brain is kinda fried. I believe Pet has also commented on just adding a few more wrinkles to the run game but we are keeping in tact the majority.

3. We have the same OL coaches and the Same RB coaches. Which by far is the best thing Shanny did for us in bring in a hell of a staff even though I did not care for what the QB coach did but receiver coach was terrific other than partying with players, OL coach and RB coaches are the Bomb and we have probably the best RB coach in football.

4. +The backup centers we brought in did well in pass pro but man they were all suffering from noassatol. I see a ton of talent in this group of backs and we added my #1 rated back in this draft because the kid from GA was recovering.

5. I think Gabriel with a year under his belt and bringing in hartline will be huge. i think hartline was an insane steal for us, I am an SEC guy and could not stand his brother but this kid made Skrine look like he never played a game before and I feel Gabriel has steve smith potential

I also like the addition of Joker, the guy is a great teacher. Never been at this level but he really takes raw guys and gets the most out of them. Give them 3 routes and tell them to learn to run it with their eyes closed and then we go from there lol. Teaching precision.

I think McCown has a better deepball but ugg guys will be open cause they are gonna load up against the run and send guys to hit the QB. Now a QB could grow in confidence behind our line, lasted Campbell 3 games looked like a star then he took one good hit and called it a career. I didnt want McCown but he is here for now and so far looks good. At this point he is doing what we want and looks the part. Until he proves that he is nothing more than the fumble machine that panics when someone holds up a sign that says pressure, we are good. I hope we have found our old vet that can lead us to the promise land but I aint banking on it.

Hoyer got rid of the ball quickly no doubt but you have to hit those big gimmie plays. You just cant miss those and win many games.

The front office and coaching staff think we can make them pay this year. Are they correct? We wont know till the games are played.

Browns LB Karlos Dansby: Offense is "Explosive"

"Amazing. Explosive offense. They're doing a lot of moving around. They're trying to get us outleveraged and making plays. Josh [McCown] is getting down the field and is accurate on a lot of throws. He's putting it into tight windows. They're making a lot of plays on the other side of the ball. We had a lot of great competition, so we were competing everyday. We look forward to it every day."

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/6/26/8855299/browns-lb-karlos-dansby-offense-is-explosive

I enjoyed reading Pit's reply and your reply.

I don't need a link for the ZBS stuff. Your word is good enough for me. I was just looking for clarification and couldn't find any recent comments.

I think that was some good conversation and wish we could have more of that type of thing on the board.

Motions can be a great tool to get setup to maximize your play call, but I keep hearing about all these motions and pre-snap movement and it concerns me factoring...

• We have a new OC coordinator, who himself is "new" at that position in the NFL.
• The playbook is new to our players, and is added stuff to try to learn and be effective at with the motions.
• How good is any of our QBs at pre-snap reads to know if the motioning is going to help, or be detrimental.

But if it works and sets up a Housler for a killer route up the middle, or a great running scheme getting a LB or the dline to shift, or whatever the "good" can come out of doing a lot of pre-snap movements, then awesome.

It's all to be seen.

I heard we were going to keep the ZBS, but that was right when we hired Flip. I have NOT heard anything about that recently. Can one of you who seem so sure we are keeping the same exact system that Shanny had w/the ZBS

We are going to have a ZBS which in this day and age not a big surprise.

Same exact as Shanny...no way. Actually Shanny ran an OutsideZBS Scheme. Which I never heard mentioned regarding this Offense. There will be movement, there might be a stretch play? A Zone blocking scheme with a traditional FB??? Hard to say till we see it. ZBS just means specific doubles set up with 2nd tier responsibilities. Scheme play design. also I know so many are comparing to the Oakland raiders well flip had nothing to do with that design...quite frankly I've hear one team in the look of our new O and the team mentioned was CGO with Trestman's O. Probably will be a combo of looks.

WRs last year were able to get open don't see why not this year. Route Tree? or fact Defenses were playing the run? Probably both. won't be hard to come out with good route trees. You and I could probably sit down and make about 20 plays in several hours. Execution...do we have the QB who can?

I am confused Vers cause you praise Shanny for a good run game...then you give us stats saying other wise. Just confuses me. Was it good or Bad?

I just hope we can pull out some early games while we have he gel time needed for the O. Predicting the outcome might be easy to some...not me. Good or bad I can't say for sure.

jmho

j/c

People need to step back and take a hard look a Shanahan. First, he was unemployed last year if Pettine didn't hire. Second, would we all think this switch over to Flip is a big issue if Shanahan was hired as a HC?

I think Shanahan was our best OC in a long time. Shanahan was using Cleveland. You are kidding yourself if you think differently. If Cleveland won two more games last year, he most likely had a shot at a HC. If not, he knew if Browns looked half respectable, he gets hired as a OC on a better team.

Flip wants to be here. I have no idea how he'll do. Right now his head is focused on being a great OC. He'll more likely be here for two or three years. As soon as Cleveland starts winning, all these coordinators are gone. Switching coordinators should be a norm, right?

My personal opinion. I think Flip is bringing the run game back into the picture. Not so much old school more like what Chip Kelly is doing up tempo balanced attack. I think Browns are building an offense with a lot pieces. I think our offense, play makers, will look like a hockey team. You'll have guys coming in and out trying to get favorable match-ups. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Manziel and McCown switch up throughout a game.

Looking at the makeup of our play makers. You got tall, small, fast, and hands receivers. You got brute, speed, and shifty running backs. You have play action and pocket QBs. If the OL can keep up with constant scheme and tempo change, this offense can produce. Stat guys will look puzzled, because there will not be any individual standouts. Saints and Patriots already do something similar. Browns are going to do it with mediocre QBs.

I think Shanny is in the big 4 for OC since the return. Bruce had very little to work with and that team in 2002 could score with guys that didnt deserve to be in the league. Chud had DA, K2 and BE all in the probowl. Norv got Gordon and Cam in the probowl but we had no RB worth a roster spot until week 15 or 16.

Shanny had imho the most talent but it was such young talent. I mean he was starting a rookie LG, best receiver was a 5-8 rookie, best rbs were rookies. Cam was kicked in the back of the head and never recovered.

I thought Shanny's weakness was end of game playcalling. I loved 90% of his calls but i really disagreed with a lot of his 4th quarter decision making especially early in the year when we were running all over teams and all we needed was to eat some clock and he was chucking it. Made no sense.

We will have to wait and see about Flip but all the movement stuff is stuff he learned from Saunders. I think Flip is a Borg, he assimilates the things he likes and discards the rest.

I think he is trying to make his version of the greatest show on turf but that athleticism gets neutralized often due to weather and varying conditions. Plus Other than Gabriel and the backs we dont have a lot of athletes. Its why Pryor has a shot to steal a spot.

I was actually surprised at how little we used motion last year. IIRC, less than 5% of our snaps had motion involved.

My problem with Shanahan is this:

IN 2013, we had complete turmoil at the QB position, has a disaster at WR, and had no RB talent. We had a whopping 4 rushing TD, and IIRC, we didn't get our 1st until week 11 or 12. We scored 308 points in 2013

Last year we improved at QB, RB, and WR, and also had a defense that turned the ball over much more than the 2013 defense did. We went from scoring 4 rushing TD to scoring 11 rushing TD. Last year 1we scored 299 points.

We had so many advantages, last year compared to 2013, yet our scoring went down.

Did I say our run game was good? Hmmmmm...let me go look. Be right back....


....Here is what I said:




--I wonder how Flip and company are going to know how to run "exactly" the same ZBS run scheme that Shanny did? That system took years to refine. Shanny got most of it from his father. You just don't simply become a master of something in less than a year.


I think the design was very good. I don't think anyone can argue that, can they? That system has been successful for decades. All those "great" Denver backs didn't do so hot when they went somewhere else. How did Morris do last year in Washington?

I believe there were some givens that we can take away from last year:

--the design was good.

--the running game looked better when teams actually respected our passing game. The running game was hurt once the passing game faltered.

--Unlike Norv, Shanny did a very good job of still sticking w/the running game throughout games. He never abandoned it.

Now, go back up to point number 2. My original point in all of this was that it's much harder to run the ball when your passing game is inept. Rushing for a lot of yards is nice, but if you don't win games, that stat is meaningless. You gotta have balance. Both the running game and passing game at least has to be respected by your opponent.

Now, I'm sure you--and others--will disagree w/me on this one, but I think our QB sucks, we have no real threat at TE, no real big-play WR, and an OC who has never called plays before. That doesn't translate into a respectable passing game and I have come to the conclusion that this offense isn't likely to be very good.

I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong. I just think the odds of us having a decent offense are very, very slim.

My problem w/your stats is that you always leave things out and use them to trick people.

Are you really not considering the loss of three Pro Bowlers? You don't think that had anything to do w/the stats?

You use stats like that, but refuse to acknowledge 10 and 6 vs 1 and 15?

Isn't it a safe assumption saying Browns were very young last year? Not necessarily saying age. You had Hoyer who never played a full year and Manziel. A pretty green receiver corp along with two rookie RBs.

Offense struggled in pre-season. I guess my question is it a bit much adding motion to the offense? Right around the time Mack was injured it seem like the offense was starting to gel.

How many remember last year in training camp the side of the ball who played best in practice wore the orange jersey? How many times did the offense win? Once or twice? I think that will be a good litmus test how this offense will play. Ideally we want to see flip-flopping between the two.

Starting slow here. McCown and Hoyer are basically the same guy.

Not going into stats here. Just a surface comparison.

They are below average quarterbacks that are good enough to hold a roster spot and stay in the league. They have been around long enough to understand NFL offenses and defenses. They are good enough to be spot starters but are essentially backups.

Hoyer relies upon fast reads and getting the ball out quickly. McCown throws a better deep ball but overall they are pretty close in accuracy 56% Hoyer, 58% McCown.

If we can establish the run game McCown is good enough to complete some passes. He hopefully is accurate enough to keep the defenses honest if he can be kept in favorable down and distance numbers.

No sugar coating it McCown is not the guy to lead the offense game in and out. The Browns passing game is not going to scare anyone. We will not be a team that can get down by a big score and expect to come back.

Start with playing good defense. Keeping the score down. Get turnovers. Dominate time of possession with ground game. And do not turn the ball over.

Sounds simple. Sounds like the formula to win any game. But in the end it does not work if we can not run the ball.

Not at all. We lost Mack for 11 games and Gordon for 10 last year. We also lost Cameron for 6 games.

However, from 2013 to 2014 we added Hoyer for most of the year, and we also added Bitonio to the OL, Dray to the TE position, Hawkins, Austin, and Gabriel to the WR position, West and Crowell to the RB spot. (and Tate early on)

We improved our offensive personnel a great deal from 2013 to 2014. Despite this, our scoring decreased. (and also despite the defense scoring 3 TD, and a Safety)

We switched guys for guys. We didn't improve our talent a great deal and we didn't this year either.

There is a REAL reason why so many rank our QBs, TEs, and WRs so low. All three are at the bottom of the league.

People on here will trot out the "Brown's Bias" excuse, but those same people have our OL ranked in the top 5 and have our secondary ranked high.

Btw-----------how long did it take Shanny to get another job? Sheesh.......Atlanta is so stinking dumb. They didn't use your stats to evaluate Shanny.

I don't expect Shanny's absence to have much impact on the use of the ZBS.

1. The club owns all of Shanahan's work product while he was here. His scheme, playbook everything he brought or developed while in Cleveland belongs to the team, not him.

2. Shanahan is an OC he is not a OL coach. We retained the coaches who implemented the system last year. These are the coaches who work directly with the players on technique.

3. Flip said in one of his first interviews after being hired that his offense will use both ZBS and Gap-blocking schemes.

Hey Tony: At the beginning of the offseason, John DeFilippo insisted that he would incorporate successful elements of last year's offense into this season's. I'm specifically concerned about the zone-blocking scheme. I know media access to OTAs/practices has been limited, but have you seen evidence that he'll keep his word? Can the zone scheme provide some continuity for the upcoming season?

-- Robert, Los Angeles, CA

Hey Robert: The linemen have said that elements of the zone-blocking scheme are in place for the running game. But DeFilippo will incorporate other blocking schemes for pass protection. When a coach says he will continue doing something that was the expertise of a coach before him, sometimes it is easier said than done.

http://www.espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=45911

If my confidence in what the team is doing is supposed to be shaken by nebulous comments from Tony Grossi it isn't working.

All we have to do is run the ball for our first 35 plays and we are guaranteed the win..

Or so ive heard..

Wow, I absolutely have to disagree with you.

Think back to 2013. Think back to the offense that year. Maybe you have blocked it out because of how bad it was, and I know a lot of people probably did ..... but think back anyway .....

QB: Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell, Brian Hoyer. The less said, the better.

RB: Richardson, (for a few games) McGahee (ugh) Bobby Rainey, Fozzy Whittaker, Edwin Baker, Chris Ogbannoya. Other than Trent, the rest combined for 20 games and 197 yards rushing last year. They were awful, except for Baker, and he had very little to go on .,.... he just looked better than the rest of the junk we threw out there.

WR: We had Gordon for 14 games, and that was it. Remember these names? Greg Little, Davone Bess, Josh Cooper, Armanti Edwards, Travis Benjamin, Brian Tyms, and Tori Gurley.

Last year it was what ...... week 5 or 6 before we even had a dropped pass? We got Gordon back in week 11, and after a 1 week explosion, we seemed to have no idea how to use him on the field. Our WR corps ran wide open frequently last year. Was part of that scheme? Sure. Was part of that hard work on the part of the receivers? Absolutely. Our WR corps, especially Austin, Hawkins, and Gabriel, was a huge upgrade over 2013. I think that Gabriel has special talent. Even without Gordon, this group was upgraded.

At QB, I think that starting Hoyer for most of the year was an upgrade over Weeden and Campbell.

In 2013, at TE, we had Cameron (917) and Barnidge (127) combine for 1044 yards. Last year we had Cameron, Barnidge, and Dray combine for 822 yards. Our passing TD went down last year, but to an extent that was by decision, as we chose to run the ball a great deal when we got down close.

At RB, last year, we had a 3 headed monster, and we needed to find out what we had. We started with Tate, and he got hurt early on. When he returned from injury, he was not the same. Tate ran for only 333 yards and 4 TD before he fell apart. West led the team in rushing with 673 yards, and Crowell had 607 yards. Between West and Crowell, they averaged just over 4 yards/carry. Oddly enough, this was the same as 2013, but there were reasons why we were more effective last year. 1st, we were able to run the ball down close last year, and were able to score. 2nd, we didn't use as many trick plays last year. In 1013, QB rushes and trick plays accounted for 377 yards. (out of 1383 total) In 2014, the number of yards on rushes other than by RB dropped to only 113 yards, yet our rushing yards increased to 1728 overall. Our running game, using the RBs, improved a grat deal from 2013 to last year. The 2 young RBs themselves were a big part of why. They had some ups and downs as they struggled with maturity, but they were a huge upgrade from 2013.

So, let's put it all together:

QB: 2014 wins by a fairly wide margin. It's not so much that Hoyer was great for all of last year, but he was a big improvement over Weeden, Campbell, and the Hoyer of 2013. We did not throw the ball as much in 2014 as we did in 2013. (502 pass attempts last year compared to 681 in 2013) I think tat, overall,we were more productive at the QB spot last year though.

RB: 2014 wins, and it's really not even close. We had 2 nice young backs last year, with some ups and downs, but remember how bad we were at the position in 2013. It was awful.

WR: 2013 had 1 WR, Josh Gordon. Gordon had a career season, one for the ages. Other than Gordon, who did we have? Last year we had Austin, Hawkins, and Gabriel. If we look at a single receiver, then 2013 wins. If we look at depth and overall production, I think that we have to give the tip of the scales to 2014.

TE: Cameron had a fantastic year in 2013. He was hurt in 2014. We added Dray in 2014, and he was productive when called upon. We had better depth in 2014, but I think that 2013 wins overall.

OL: Well, this is a hard one. In 2013, we had an OL of Thomas/Greco/Mack/Lauvao, and Schwartz. We allowed 47 sacks on 681 pass attempts, and could not run the ball. (though certainly not all their fault) In 2014, we started out with Thomas/Bitonio/Mack/Greco/Schwartz. This OL was absolutely destroying teams. Then Mack got hurt. However, we still ran the ball better, and we allowed only 31 sacks. (but in only 502 pass attempts) In 2013, that equates to one sack every 13.9 pass attempts. In 2014, we allowed 1 sack every 16.2 pass attempts. I think that 2014 wins that category. (even with the injury to Mack)

So, my score is this:

2014 wins on QB, RB, OL, and WR.

2013 wins on TE.

I think that we improved out talent a great deal from 2013 to 2014.

Now, what we have done this year is hard to evaluate without having played a game ..... but I think this:

At WR we lost Austin, and added Bowe, Hartline, Mayle, and Pryor. We can't really count Gordon as a loss, because he didn't give us much last year. This look like a position that should be upgraded over last year. There is talent here, and it appears that we should have better depth.

QB: Who knows? Hoyer was Hoyer, and I have no idea, realistically, what to expect from McCown. This is definitely a wait and see.

RB: We return West, Crowell, and Winston. (who the coaches reportedly like) We added Duke Johnson, who looks like a real talent, and who should add a dynamic upgrade in the passing game. Wealso return Shaun Droughns, but I think that he will have a hard time making this team. We also added Malcolm Johnson at FB, and I think that he is going to be a big piece of the puzzle. It will be interesting to see how this position washes out.

OL: We get Mack back from injury, and we added Erving. The OL should be an absolute team strength, with improved depth.

TE: You know that I really like Housler. I think that he will be a guy who will give us similar things as Cameron did. Upgrade, overall? Maybe not. Upgrade over 400 or so yards that Cameron gave us last year? I think so.

It really does all come down to the QB spot, and whether McCown can do enough to win low scoring games. I think that our defense if going to be greatly improved, with an extra year in the system, a return to health by certain players, plus several new players who will be better fits. (like Shelton, Starks, Cooper, (who I also really like) and Orchard)

I fully expect us to win 9 or more games this coming season. I can't wait to get started.

J/C

Good reads so far but let's get something clear. We absolutely had a good running game last year... until Mack got hurt. Then we struggled. If Mack doesn't go down last year who knows what happens.

I expect us to be good running the ball. I'm hopeful the rest of the offense can do its job... not worried about our run game.

I really like where you are going with this!

You know, a lot of people assume our passing game is going to take a hit because Jordan left. Personally I don't think it will because despite his potential, he wasn't too terribly productive because he either was hurt and not on the field, or kept falling down. I view a guy like him as a luxury, not a necessity, so I'm not concerned with Housler having to become his clone. In fact, I'd be just as happy if we had a TE who can run block well enough that increases our RB's YPC average by 1-1.5 yrds. I mention the TE position out of nowhere because it segues in to this recurring thought I've been having about where Erving will fit in...

Honestly, if he's as good a talent as he's built up to be, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some 6 lineman looks this year, like I think it was the Patriots were throwing out there in the playoffs.

I'm not going to say this will lead us to the playoffs, or even that its sustainable through an entire season, but while we have to wait another season for the QB issue, why not improve what we have now?

Besides, Mangini managed to win 4 in a row by pounding the ball....

the players said we are going to be running up the middle more than last year. the coaching say passing the ball to the RBs more this year. different blocking for pass protect.

basically a whole different offense.

i just dont think we will use shannys zone blocking all that much. sure will not be a staple of the offense.

Yeah I did "ASSume" on that good run game thing...my bad. I think when you stated the word Master at it...that is where my ASSumption was formed.

The harder to run the ball when you passing game is inept...I've been saying that for around a YEAR. Obvious teams are loading up to stop the run...and saying ok Cleveland let see your QB who hasn't established themselves - BEAT US if they can!

McCown Sucking...with certainty. As stated I looked at the few things he does well and we are looking to make that part of our system so I don't know what to expect.
I know execution not play calling is the key in football. I know right now without games to play McCown is great in getting the team up to speed on the new O and close to good execution.
Can he come through on game day??? Unlike you I cannot say with certainty one way or another.

I liked Shanny and gave him his due respect for X's n O's I thought he spaced out the WRs nice. But still when I see teams putting 8-9 in the box and we run play action and the Corners also peeking into the back field. It didn't surprise me looking back that we had WRs galore open. I don't see that changing. But I cannot see into the future as well as some. I can't predict disaster. But since 1999 its a pretty safe prediction even without any thought into it...lol

Hey you know me by now, I'm going to pick the odds opposite and go with that. I can see how it can happen. I cannot predict the execution of it.

jmho - Vers your opinions haven't changed but I think speaking for most of the board. Your presentation has changed and it is most welcomed by the masses. Hope you don't take that as an insult...again message board is not the best for exact communication.

Just a disclaimer...."I Liked SHANNY" was in his system I liked. His X's and O's - I never liked him as a leader/person. I think cause I and everyone knew he was here temporarily and as mentioned he was not known to play well with others. So before the hypocrite finger is pointed. The I like Shanny was for his Football not as our Leader of the Offense.

jmHonest Truth.

I disagree with part of your opinion. QB scares me to death, I think people will be suprised with our TE play this year, and just like I said early and often before last season started our WR's will be just fine and suprise a lot of people. I have way more faith in our OC than most people do on this board. IMO the kid is very bright, very talented, and won't be out worked. He will learn and adjust very quickly. Our entire offense is going to sink or swim with our QB play.

That's fine.

However, I still think that we have the same problems.

QB: Dreadful

TE: Amongst the very worst in the league.

WR: See TEs.

RB: Below average.

Result: We are going to have one of the worst offenses in the league, just as we have had for years.

Guys replacing guys.

Wait, so we are supposed to trust you instead of things the players have said?

Grossi just has zero information when it comes to the Browns. He is a name and thats why espn hired him but he really has no ties to the cleveland Browns anymore. I trust most people on this board far more than I do with anything coming from Grossi. The Browns have 90% moved on from Grossi not Manziel and it will not be surprising if his press credentials are revoked soon.

I dont think we are hurting at TE because Dray and Barnidge gives you the steve Heiden that is gonna block to they are carted off the field and they have excellent hands. They are limited physically but both are good players. Kid from AZ Housler, I have watched a few highlights of the kid and just can away unimpressed. Bibbs stays healthy we got a good one.

This kid is healthy he would have been the first TE off the board and I loved Maxx but this kid has a special quality about him. I may be wrong but he has a chance to be this years Crow/Gabriel.

Since you want to go there...

I was speaking about me and only me. What you believe or trust doesn't mean jack to me. I don't need or seek your validation. But be assured I'll keep posting regardless.

Also to be fair to myself, this notion of player comments wasn't even brought up until AFTER my post that you find laughable.

I'll go further, unless these vague player comments that you or no one else is providing quotes for say explicitly that we are not using ZBS I'm sure as hell not at all impressed by your declaration of what the team will or won't do.

Your just a petulant poster with a keyboard. In spite of your insufferable bluster your just another ordinary poster.

To be clear this reply is more about Vers attempt to be clever at my expense than anything.

I don't put myself out there as any kind of X's and O's guru but its my understanding that ZBS is for run blocking not pass sets. The possible exception being a ZBS team to show ZBS intially on play-action but again I'm no guru so I don't know. Running inside more often or less or the same in and of itself reveals nothing about the blocking scheme as you can run between the tackles effectively employing ZBS.

This will be the third time in two threads I've mentioned that Flip said from his own mouth that we will ALSO employ Gap-blocking techniques in his offense.

Yeah, I'm back. Mainly because people allow you to get away with your BS way too much and I'm not in the mood for being one of your enablers.

So I went to the link to the Hey, Tony that is supposedly so damning to my assertion about the use of ZBS. Below is the actuall content of the question and Grossi's response.

Hey Tony: At the beginning of the offseason, John DeFilippo insisted that he would incorporate successful elements of last year's offense into this season's. I'm specifically concerned about the zone-blocking scheme. I know media access to OTAs/practices has been limited, but have you seen evidence that he'll keep his word? Can the zone scheme provide some continuity for the upcoming season?

-- Robert, Los Angeles, CA

Hey Robert: The linemen have said that elements of the zone-blocking scheme are in place for the running game. But DeFilippo will incorporate other blocking schemes for pass protection. When a coach says he will continue doing something that was the expertise of a coach before him, sometimes it is easier said than done.

So Grossi ACTUALLY says that players said yes, the ZBS is being used. Then he adds his own little editorial spin on their comments. Hhhmmm, here's laughing at you Vers... for being so half fast

Thank You! I thought I was lone wolf on the Dray Barnidge debate! They certainly ain't Graham, but they both aren't much different than Heath Miller.

Other than proving your are miserable and thin-skinned, what is it you are trying to prove here?

Here is pblack's first post and your response to it. Read carefully and then laugh at yourself.



You posted the very same thing just now that pblack posted the first time.

So what is it you are trying to prove again?

yea. guess he didnt read it. only put it up because it said what the players were saying. baffled why he is getting so mad about it.

He's sensitive and angry????

You're not "ganging up" on someone, are you?

Watch it you two or its detention for you both and I am gonna call your parents.

*GENERAL REPLY*

Man, this non-sensical BS gets old. There's more crap laying around these boards than an actual dog kennel. I know its the internet but in real life I feel like I have to hose my shoes off after visiting these boards. No matter what the thread, rest assured anywhere from 40-80% of it will end up being post after post between the same handful of people making up assertions about what other people said, even though they never did, then have the audacity to get in to a pissing match about it and act indignant when things get 'personal'. I expect a degree of that in the Everything Else forums, but not in the Football forums. This is the same BS that trashed the official team message boards. I hope none of you guys are actually wondering why they never re-opened a Browns message board? I can't say as I blame them. If you're not sure, feel free to PM and I'll tell you, but be warned you'll likely get your feelings hurt.

Now the obvious reply is 'Well then DevilDawg, if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to come here'. You're right, no one is. And I'm not suggesting that the refs get involved in reviewing every single post. That would be stupid and I'm sure they've got better things to do with their lives. One would think people would be grown up enough to self regulate. It just really sucks that when I log in, I see the number of people reading through the different threads and forums, but only a small number of them ever actually post. I'm sure some don't care to, but I'd be willing to bet that many don't because they don't have any energy left after sifting through the endless garbage posts where people are using a virtual world to self inflate their egos and validate a sense of self worth.


Me, I don't have enough self esteem or self worth to think that anything I put on the internet will ever add to my value as a human being or that my genius will ever send shockwaves throughout the universe.


As to football, ALL we need for this offense to be successful are 2 things: For Flip to show at a minimum he s competent. He doesn't have to be a genius this year or show that he's next season's top new HC candidate.

Second, we don't need McCown to be or perform like a Pro Bowl QB. If we've seen anything the last 2 seasons, its that as long as we have a QB who can play competently, we can win games. He doesn't have to play perfect, he doesn't have to be someone you want on your fantasy football team. People get so wrapped up in the QB situation that they blind themselves to just how good of a team we actually have. Even if you are someone who thinks I'm being overly generous in my assessment, I think it would be difficult to deny that at a minimum we have quite possibly THE strongest foundation for a successful team than we have at any other time over the last 15 years.

+1
And they don't actually have to be Graham not to suck. Personally, I think the TE's we have are EXACTLY what we need for what we are trying to build. As long as they can block, and make the occasional clutch catch (which they've shown they can do) I'm not going to say our TE's suck because they don't happen to be one of maybe 5 in the entire league considered to be deep downfield threats.

McCown's play action will determine how awful the record will be. Johnny Rehab or ol' Thaddy Lew, after a McCown injury, will be Ray-Ray's walking papers.

Liquor'ed and coke'd up 36 hours beforehand as well as no memorization of secondary, let alone tertiary options, over the several months prior...

Your perceptions do not equate to reality.

I think a lot of you get really upset when someone points out the weaknesses of the team and it alters your perception of what really is transpiring.

You can deny the importance of the QB. You can deny that McCown has been a terrible qb for just about his entire career. You can say we have a talented and good team. But none of those things are actually a reality.

Now, you can get upset w/my opinion and start more nonsense such as me trying to inflate my ego and validating my sense of worthy because I disagreed w/your analysis, but in reality, it don't mean a thang.

A Good Running Game Makes For A More Productive Passing Game!!!

yea. i saw that with chud.

I saw it last year until we lost Mack ...

Unless they agree with you.

In 2014...

Andrew Hawkins had 63 receptions for 824 yards. (13.1 YPC Avg).
Taylor Gabriel had 36 receptions for 621 yards. (17.3 YPC Avg).
Brian Hartline had 39 receptions for 474 yards. (12.2 YPC Avg).
Dwayne Bowe had 60 receptions for 754 yards. (12.6 YPC Avg).

*Prior to 2014 Brian Hartline had back to back 1,000+ yard seasons*

While we might not have a clear cut #1 receiver, I certainly think this group is capable of being productive and above average.

Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell combined for 1,280 yards and 12 TD's both while splitting carries with each other and with Ben Tate.

I wouldn't really classify them as below average. They both flashed some real talent last year.

I completely agree about the QB & TE positions, but I disagree about our WR's and RB's being weaknesses.

I don't think our RBs are a weakness, but we were 17th overall in rushing and again, only two teams had a worse average in yds per carry. Thus, that is why I said we are below average.

Our WRs? Hartline was cut by Miami. Bowe was released by KC. I posted the article about how we were in the bottom 5 in the league.

The upcoming year is a new year and perhaps things will change, but as of right now, I think this offense has some real issues.

well put and dead on

maybe this will cheer you two up.

j/c

Clearly there is a difference between being bad and being unproven. Collectively this particular iteration of the Browns are unproven. A big unknown is scheme fit. How will these particular players, some who are veterans and appear to be on the back side of their careers, fit what the Brown's are asking them to do? To talk in absolutes at this point, in June, before pads ever go on is conjecture. How will the addition, or subtraction of one guy affect other players on his unit? Will that affect be positive or negative? Does the scheme fit these players skill set?

They may ultimately fall flat. They may surprise, just as last years team did. There was a lot of talk about how abysmal the wide receiving corp would be at this time last year. Especially with Gordon being out for 10 games. Then it unfolded, the receivers made plays and the receivers as a whole regressed when Gordon got back on the field. That doesn't go 100 % on Gordon either; there were other variables at work.

My point is that when your dealing in an arena of human potential you often won't know until your in the moment when performance matters.

The organization is in year two of a their plan. Year one was a decent start. Certainly better than we've seen in terms of wins and losses for a long time. That at least makes me hopeful that they can build on it.

this is really good. this would make a great football topic. alot of people on the board are bringing this up but its disjointed, across differnt topics but talking about what you just said.

well. jmo anyway.

I'm up for that discussion. To me it will be easier to talk about the defense rather than the offense in these terms. Any way it goes, my personal bent is toward the positive aspects but that's just how I roll. Any point of view should get a fair opportunity for expression.

Probably lost the game, and your sig doesn't exactly inspire positivity. lol

I think most people are in agreement that the defense has a lot of good parts in place.

DL: I believe that adding Shelton was a good move. You need depth on the DL and we have several guys who can play in the rotations.

OLB: Kruger is pretty good. Mingo needs to be healthy. Not a fan of Cooper.

ILBer: Dansby is pretty good. The rotation of Kirskey and Robertson is all right.

CB: I think losing Skrine will hurt. Joe is very good. I like K. Williams. I don't like Desir. T. Williams was a decent corner but he is getting up there. Why was he available? Anyone know? Gilbert is the key to this group.

SS/FS: This is a real strength. Gilbert is approaching elite status and Whit is solid on the field and a great locker room guy.

I think we have to improve in two areas:

--Stopping the run. Pettine's defenses the last few years at least have really struggled against the run. I think part of that is scheme. He puts a lot of emphasis on stopping the pass and he also has his edge guys crash down a lot. This leaves the perimeter undermanned. He did make some late season adjustments, but it hurt us in other areas. We must improve here.

--Rushing the passer. Too many times last year, especially during our losing streak, we saw where we would stop teams on first and second down and then give the QB all freaking day to hit a guy for a first down. You don't have to have big sack totals, but you can't let the qb sit in a clean pocket and go through his reads.


Offensively, I will stand by what I have said throughout. I don't think McCown is going to magically turn it around after decades of incompetence. I think the OL is one of the better units in the league. I think our WRs are amongst the very worst in the NFL. I believe the RBs have potential but really haven't established themselves as being average or above average. I think this is one of the units that really fits where you were talking about earlier in regards to not knowing what to expect. I think our TEs can block okay and can make catch some short passes. I think not having a guy to stretch the defense at that position hurts us.

I think the schedule is much tougher this year. I believe it will be hard to improve the win total from last year's team.

Oh, and I am not a negative guy. I try to be realistic. For instance, I think Ohio State has a great shot of repeating as National Champions this year. They have the most talented team in the country, but one slip at the wrong time can doom an entire season. However, I know they are going to have a great, great season. They will either go undefeated, have one loss, or two at the most. I believe the Cavs--if they keep Love and Thompson--and stay relatively healthy---will win the NBA Championship next year. I don't follow baseball anymore.

So, of my three big teams.........I feel that the Cavs have a great chance to win it all, Ohio State is the favorite for winning it all, and the Browns will have a losing record.

That isn't being negative. It's being realistic.

Very fair assessment. But I do believe you meant Gibson below, instead of Gilbert ...

After this many years of utter futility, the Browns need to show me on the field. Paper doesn't matter. Who knows? Haden could start the season slow again, Gilbert still might not be ready for prime time, and Williams could really show his age. Now all of a sudden what we thought was a strength of the team is a weakness. This is just as likely a scenario as the Browns having a great secondary.

Apply this to any position group that has not shown a consistent pattern of high caliber play for years. It's just as likely they will be bad as good. It's literally 50/50. The only position group we should expect greatness from is the OL.

We have to stop romanticizing Skrine though. Players at his level change teams all the time. He was good, not great. His presence or absence doesn't make or break this secondary.

But if you are a student of NFL trends, you know there is only one position that really matters. Without that one, you're are looking at a double digit loss season.

That's not being negative, that's just understanding what you're watching.

And I believe you mean Gipson, instead of Gibson.

Good post Vers. I agree with the majority. I however believe our receivers are really being underrated but again, McCown is the QB. hartline and gabriel I expect a lot.

Who starts opposite Kruger may be the best camp battle we have. Mingo is likely to play a lot in coverage but can his shoulder handle banging as a rusher. Does Armonty have the same burst after the ACL? Is Solomon a flash in the pan roster cut? Is Nate as good as his stats? Most intriguing stroyline for me heading into camp.

Then we have Gilbert vs Williams? This is a big test for Farmer's ablity to judge talent imho with letting Buster walk. Its a huge test but K1 may already be the best slot corner in football and Gipson is a top 5 free safety. Haden top 3 or 4 corner. A lot of pressure to get that one right cause it only takes one guy to get open to make the secondary look like crap.

DL the loss of Rubin physically doesnt hurt us but his hustle set a standard for this defense. I mean Phil Taylor was injured on a play 30 yards from the LOS. Hustle is contagious. The concept of line units I like.

TE as I said in the other thread I like our toughguys and Bibbs gives me hope for a receiver at TE. wait and see but I saw some clips of camp and Dray and Barnidge were being shuffled outside, umm ok lol. the blocking they give us however is top notch.

RB I think west is our real feature type back and Duke is a home run hitter with a dynamic skill set but Crowe has a redzone bloodlust. None of these guys are gonna be happy with their amount of reps but using more two back sets can help to keep them mentally involved.

Again, I like this team but QB is the pink elephant in the room. I am not really worried about the schedule as much as most. I think we matchup really well with the majority of our opponents this year. The only 2 that I really dont like our chances are @KC and @ seattle.

And who is the OLB named Cooper?

Cooper our rookie DE that will be in there on pass downs. good pass rusher but may be the worst run defender I have ever seen for a guy his size lol.

LOVE IT! Was that Desmond Bryant and who else? DQ? Looks like #52 but can't make it out.

Destroyed!

not sure but i think Craig Robertson. it was from this year. i remember the play.

Yes. Yes I did.

This is like watching a tennis match...lol

LOL.........I'm not even sure who I meant.

Run the ball??????

They sure aren't going to be passing it.

About the defense, over all I anticipate incremental improvement. I think Randy Starks will be a solid veteran contributor. The small media attention that he's gotten reports that he has above average practice habits. He's also reported to be helping the younger guys with technique. I sum that up as being a professional with leadership ability. The circumstances that led to him signing here are instructive. Starks was still playing well in Miami when they signed Suh. That signing changed Starks roster status as far as the Dolphins were concerned. It wasn't his play that led to his exit. I mention this because the mere fact that he was released or not re-signed alone doesn't indicate that he can't play anymore. So I combine that understanding with the experience the team has had with Dansby, Whitner, Krugger and others to inform my confidence in Tramon Williams at corner. I don't pretend to know all of the circumstances involved in his departure from Green Bay but nothing I've come across says the game has passed him by. I like Skrine but Williams's eight years of experience in the league make me comfortable with Skine on the Jets and Williams in the Browns secondary. If Gilbert does beat him out that's great. At the same time the team could not rely solely on Gilbert's development. That would be an unacceptable and inexcusable risk.

I do wonder how Shelton will hold up at the point of attack? Some analyst question his ability to anchor. Seems like if he lines up as a shade nose tackle and attacks a single gap this plays to his strength. That's been my biggest concern about him. It's probably an overblown concern because he has flashed the ability to two gap. I don't doubt his effort and I think he'll get third down reps for his potential to push the center of an offensive line into the backfield and create opportunities for the outside pass rushers. Tying the back end of the defense to the front; I envision the coverage to cause QBs to hold the ball a beat or two longer. That should also help produce more sacks.

There has been a lot said about stopping the run. The return of injured players and the adjustment in alignment that O'Neil talks about will be expected to improve the run defense. Shelton and Hughes and Starks will need to be a real contributors for any meaningful improvement in run stopping.

On to the offense. Three things have been settled. We have an above average starting unit. Erving and possibly Bowie improve the depth. The zone blocking scheme has not been abandoned.

I'm not blind to McCown's career achievements and I don't believe the organization is either. The coaching staff is aware of his limitations and I expect them to identify where he can be successful in the passing game and then accentuate it. That means a heavy reliance on the running game and a high percentage short passing game that gets the ball out of McCown's hands quickly and relies on the skill players to make plays. Formations, personnel, and motion will be counted on the create mismatches and space for the skill guys to operate. I won't even try to talk about the offense in concrete terms. What I hear is that guys will shift or line up in unconventional positions. Not so much as gimmicks but to stress defenses in ways they are not accustom to. For all of this to work West and Crowell will have to be receiving targets. Their ability as pass catchers will likely influence how much playing time they'll get. Johnson will undoubtedly get his touches too. My own personal logic says putting Johnson in a two back formation, maybe as a slot back will threaten defenses in a way we have not been able to do before. In recent comments by Dansby he says the offense tries to "out leverage" the defense. I speculate that this means they are showing a formation that suggests their going to a certain player or attacking a certain positon on the defense. It sounds like the offense either wants to create numbers advantages or get defenses committed to certain reads and counter off of them or both. This is pure speculation on my part. The fragments of information we're getting at this time make this my educated guess.

Play action should continue to be big part of the passing attack. I do wonder how much 5 and 7 step drop back passing will be in the offense? Dray and Barnage will probably contribute in the same way they did last year. They won't be featured in the passing game. Housler? What he does or doesn't do will determine if the TE is a big part of the offense. For me to weigh in on that would be SWAG I'm not ready for.

It sounds like the offense either wants to create numbers advantages or get defenses committed to certain reads and counter off of them or both. This is pure speculation on my part.

That would seem like a pretty logical speculation on your part. Either get the numbers - also tip the hand of a Zone (I guess for the most part in the NFL they expect MAN) Get LBs to shift. Then run the play (usually there will be 2 other options) that compliments what the D is or I guess better to say what the D is NOT doing.

jmho

You obviously put a lot of thought into your post. We agree on most things actually.

On Starks, we totally agree. I don't believe you tried to oversell him or diminish him. I believe by all accounts he can and will be a veteran contributor. I believe you accurately described how the signing of Suh was a far larger reasoning for his release than a lack of his play.

Now with Williams I do not believe that same comparison exists. I don't recall G. Bay signing a high quality CB that pushed Williams off the roster. I don't recall G. Bays secondary being dominant to the point they can simply let go of a high quality CB. Williams gave up 10 TD passes and opposing QB's averaged rating around 105 against him. I do realize that Skrine wasn't a shut down CB, but I have what I believe are legitimate concerns about Williams being a downgrade.

Starks I have a lot more confidence about than some. I believe if his combine numbers would have been better, we would not have sniffed the opportunity to draft him. While I'm certainly not qualified to run an NFL draft, all too often I've seen teams put far too much emphasis in combine numbers and pro days than the actual film of players on game day. Those numbers and guys running around in shorts should never trump how a player performs on the field, in uniform, in crunch time. So for those reasons, I expect Shelton to be a beast.

I won't even attempt to guess what we will do on the O side of the ball. Your guess is as good as any. We have an OC who has never held that job at the pro level, ever. What he will execute on the field is an unknown to everyone. There is one thing I can say about the O and I believe it's a very basic concept for anyone willing to be objective.

When your coaching staff says they will, "minimize the QB position", it's nothing more than a polite way of saying, "We don't have a QB'.

And on that, I agree with them as well.

You know what, I was going to respond via PM to this, but considering THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, I'll do it public. If I get booted for a week, so be it.

First, that post was aimed at more than one person and as a "if the shoe fits" comment. Any person with a basic American public education would have been able to understand that. Only if your ego is so large it would preclude you from having comprehended that. That post, aside from the last paragraph, had zilch to do with disagreeing with your assessment. It was about how you and others consistently turn these boards in to crapfests. You claim to be a teacher, but how you miss out on such basic reading comprehension, frankly is something I can't comprehend.

I challenge you to find a single post I've ever written stating that I disagreed with the assessment that McCown has been terrible his entire career. Seriously, put your money where your internet mouth is. In fact, I've actually written very little about him, and the only thing I've mentioned is the level of play we need from him in order to see some offensive success.

And this is the biggest problem that you and certain others have, which starts all this BS: you make blanket assertions and put blanket conclusions in other people's mouth when you don't agree with their point of view. You pissed, whined, and moaned about how Farmer screwed up drafting Manziel and Gilbert, and when anyone tried to talk about how well he did after the 1st Rd and w/ the UDFA's... YOU tell them that they are saying that Farmer can do no wrong, even though they never said it, hinted at it, or came close to saying such a thing. The funny thing is, it's those blanket assertions that you and the usual contenders for the Pissing Match Championship Belt do to each other!

C'mon man, we all know things aren't perfect in Berea, but actually find your dignity. So many times another poster puts out a link to a clevelandbrowns.com article, obviously a puff piece, and the poster usually throws in something to the effect of "take this with a grain of salt", but you still lambaste them as if they were posting some kind of journalistic slop. You try to take them to task because they didn't post an article saying how dysfunctional the FO or team is. Hello! McFly! Its a freakin TEAM 'report'! Those guys aren't so much actual journalists but more marketing assistants! Of course they aren't going to go on at length (or at all) speculating about Farmer's ability to assess a college QB.

Hey, it's squarely up to you and the other Usual Suspects to step back and actually realize what you guys are doing to the quality of these boards. There's an awful lot of fans who don't end up posting because they don't need to get crapped on by people like you and they certainly don't need your damn approval as you seem to think is the standard. Reading posts like yours and others is like that scene in Tombstone where Billy Bob Thornton's loud mouth character was dealing the farrow tables and the barkeep tells Earp he's chasing away the decent patrons.

For anyone who lives a few hundred miles outside of Cleveland, we all know how lonely being a Browns fan can be. These boards give us the chance to talk Browns news with other Dawgs that we don't get to do around the water cooler at the office. I don't judge other posters' fandom based upon whether or not they agree with my POV. I judge them based upon how they treat other fans. And frankly, people like you and the other Pissing Match Champs are an embarrassment to anyone who calls themselves a Dawg.

Go ahead, report me. I'll see everyone else in a week or so!

And to the other Dawgs this and the previous post doesn't apply to, my apologies for taking up valuable internet space. I'll try to throw out a little more football stuff

I don't report people. You said what you felt you had to say. Big deal.

ANYONE, holding back, not wanting to post because you don't want to be criticized by others, it's time to step out and voice your opinions.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and should feel free to post that opinion. It is up to each individual to decide if they want to respond to someone else's criticism. The choice is yours...

Post up !

j/c

"Browns can't win until they get a franchise QB." Based on historical facts it is hard arguing against. Farmer/Pettine are attempting to create an offense/team going against the odds. But, it almost a must figuring out a way around.

If we look at the last several drafts, we've seen maybe four QBs worthy. There are roughly a third to half of the NFL teams attempting to get a QB. The deck is stacked against teams. Having an Owner, GM, and HC/coaching staff who are committed to resolving a work-around is key. Haslam is known for his quick trigger. Hopefully, he is past it and realizes the task at hand.

I truly believe the run game isn't dead. It is simply difficult and time consuming to build. One thing going for teams attempting is competition is small. Look at St. Louis and Cleveland drafting top rank run style OL and RBs well into the third and fourth round. In two drafts, both the Rams and Browns have drafted top backs. In my opinion, Cleveland did better getting two solid lineman.

The biggest mystery does the Browns have enough to compete. If their hunch is correct, they could well have tapped into an area others have not gone. How long will it take other teams to adjust scouting and coaching? Since the league is so focused on the pass little attention is applied to run. If you think this is all wishful thinking, look how Bill Belichick won in the playoffs and Pete Carol the year before.

If you still think QB is the route to success, 2014 and 2016 will most likely be the best opportunity to get a QB. What are the odds all of 2014 is successful? What are the odds the first four make the grade of franchise QB? Realistically we are looking at one maybe none. If teams cannot figure out a way to be competitive, the league will become very top heavy with only a third having any success.

Hi! Thanks for inviting me to post. I am one of those board members who read, literally, thousands of posts each year, but haven't posted anything since...hmm...when Kellen Winslow was still on the team. Why don't I post? One--I do not live in Cleveland and never attend Browns games. Two--I am a casual fan and will watch the Browns if they are on TV in this area (which they rarely are). Three--I never played football and have limited football knowledge. Nonetheless, I have followed the Browns since the 1960's, am happy when they do well and not as happy when they don't. I read the postings watching the Dawgtalkers board for news/insights on the team and players that aren't available through mainstream media.

I am not concerned about criticism re: anything I would post nor do I care to criticize others about what they post. I bet there are a lot of others like me who are content to sit back and read what others post.

But thanks, again for making me feel welcome to post.

Since this is a football thread I will give my thoughts about the QB situation.

Last season I was glad Hoyer was named the starter. He had performed well in a fill-in role the previous season, but more importantly displayed confidence, decisiveness, and the ability to get the football to his receivers more quickly than his predecessors.

We all know he played well early in the season and did not play well later in the season. I don't know why nor will I venture an opinion why.

I must say I was surprised the Browns management were not eager to keep Hoyer on the team after the 2014 season ended. No one else available seemed better qualified or prepared to take over the reins.

Perhaps the GM and coaches were concerned Hoyer saw Manziel as more of a potential threat than a teammate he was willing to mentor. Maybe they lost confidence in Hoyer after his poor performance in several consecutive games. In short, they probably decided he was neither the long term solution nor the person who was going to help Manziel progress in his development.

I agree McNown is not the long term solution, either, but probably was the best option at the best price. Is there potential for good performance? Sure, but history shows rather limited success for McNown and not for a full season--I can hope for a career year from him, knowing he is surrounded by a talented OL, but I do not expect him to have a career year.

Thus when the coaching staff said they were going to minimize the QB position, I read it as an admission the Browns were not as skilled at QB as teams who use the passing as their primary offensive weapon.

This means the Browns will have to rely on longer drives (more plays to score) and less frequent mistakes if they expect to be competitive. Seems to be putting themselves at a disadvantage from the start, and once again, they will be reliant on their defense that seems (on paper) to be stronger in 2015, but could be on the field more than I hope for.

That post should hold me for another five years or so!

[color:#FFFFCC]ANYONE, holding back, not wanting to post because you don't want to be criticized by others, it's time to step out and voice your opinions.

I'm with you, I'm not so down on this idea of having a heavy emphasis on running the ball. I think it is a very practical approach and it benefits us long term in two major ways:

1) Even if we had a franchise caliber QB, we'd still need a running game right? Being in Cleveland its always been a must have for the late season cold weather months. So there is no reason as to why we shouldn't be focusing on it now.

2) Isn't everything in the NFL cyclical? It might require a bit more luck, but maybe we're on the leading edge of the strong running attack cycle?

When the Pet Farm says they are trying to reduce the importance of the QB position, I don't take that to mean that they undervalue the position. They could never have risen so high in their careers if they believed it wasn't an important position. I find this a practical approach on so many levels because let's be real, when we do get the franchise QB, it most likely won't be an established veteran. It's more than likely going to be someone we draft. So running on the assumption that it will be a rookie, why wouldn't we have an offense in place that reduces the need for him to have to carry the team before he's ready?

Historically speaking, we haven't treated our QB's very well. We've always expected the world from them and they've ultimately failed because we needed to much from them before they were able, or because they didn't have the proper supporting cast (be it players or in some cases coaches).

I think the Pet Farm would LOVE to have the QB situation solved. I can't imagine a question mark at any other position would prove to be such a headache. Overall I'm pretty encouraged with how they are putting this team together. I really like what most of our roster showed us last season, we finished 7-9 (higher than most predicted) but were also a handful of plays away from being 10-6 and on the playoff bubble. People cite playing 4 weak NFC South teams, but a) so did the rest of our division and b) we still played 6 games against arguably the toughest division in football! And then I look and so far it appears we are keeping roster turnover to a minimum...

I really do think that if Mccown can provide us with just average, solid, consistent play, I don't believe its unreasonable to predict a 7-9 to 9-7 season. Obviously not enough for playoffs, but it would be proof that we finally have built a foundation.

That was a very good post and I think you made some great inferences about what is going on w/the QB position.

OK Mac I will try to get over my shyness

GM...there isn't anything that could drive you away from this board..either you can't take a hint or you are one helluva Browns fan...

Really that's your problem GM you are too shy and reserved.. you need to work on coming out of your shell.

alne...I don't live in Cleveland either and many of our most vocal board members live in states other than Ohio.

Anyone who has an opinion should feel free to post. You might be surprised at how many agree with you.

On the Hoyer deal, I believe it shows a great lack of experience by Haslam and Farmer when it comes to judging QB talent...the present QB mess the team finds itself in, those two own it.

On the Browns run game.

Less than a year ago, Only 10 months ago, Ben Tate was the Browns starting running back. IIRC. So just to look at the big picture; because today, Ben Tate seems as ancient history as Josh Cribbs or Jamel White.

And When was the last time the Browns had an offense with a fourth year starting quarterback. I'm talking 4 years with the Browns.

Because if it wasn't Couch, it was Testaverde, or Kosar; nobody more recent than that.

and

When was the last time a team from our division, (pick any) did not have a 4th year starting quarterback, I'm talking about 4 years with that said team. ?

Because if it wasn't the current one on each team, it was the current and his predecessor on all of them except maybe the Ravens predecessor, and Dalton and Flacco growing into it.

NO wonder the Browns finish last In the AFC North standings regularly.

Not the Run game? It's all a part of the other part, the run game is part of the kickoff coverage, the pass defense is part of the punt returns, it's all part of the team. Every group has a win or a loss at 4:40 eastern time.

(Tannehil was good enough for the Dolphins, but the Browns don't know how to develop someone, scratch that! don't seem to want to develop someone. Where would Weeden be if still here, where would McCoy be if still here, and why can't We find our Kyle Orton?.. Don't sleep on Senecca Wallace.
When is Manziel going to get his stuff together. )

Halelujah! ... where's the Tylenol.

Both lol

I liked your post. It was very well thought out and well presented. Thanks for your input!

MailBag Question of Week, Part I: Would top-5 running game propel Browns?

Jim Kahler @SportsAdJK
#BrownsMail If the Browns can establish their running game and finish in the top 5 in the NFL in this category .What will their record be ?
7:02 PM - 1 Jul 2015

Interesting question. Very interesting question.

You sent me to the stats from the last couple of seasons. First, I'm not optimistic about the 2015 Browns, nor do I believe a team that relies on running the ball can win consistently in the league. I'm with Joe Thomas, who believes that at some point you have to throw the ball to win, and that the teams with the top quarterbacks are consistently the best teams.

Let's check the stats though. The top 10 rushing offenses in the league last season were Seattle*, Dallas*, the Jets, San Francisco, Houston, Cincinnati*, Carolina*, Baltimore*, Philadelphia and Kansas City. Five of the top 10 (the teams with asterisks) made the playoffs, and just two of the top five. Of the five that made the playoffs, four had something else exceptional to bolster the running game. Seattle had that defense, Dallas had an excellent passing game featuring Tony Romo, Jason Witten and Dez Bryant. Cincinnati had A.J. Green and a very good defense. Carolina had the benefit of playing in a division where every team finished below .500. Only Baltimore did not have something else exceptional, though Joe Flacco supporters would disagree with me.

New England won the Super Bowl. The Patriots ranked 18th in rushing.

In 2013, six of the top-10 rushing teams made the playoffs. Those are just two-year samples, though, and hardly worthy of proper analytics. So I went to ESPN's Stats & Info group and asked about the last 10 years. They reported the following for the last 10 seasons ...

52 percent of the teams to finish in the top 10 in rushing made the playoffs

58 percent of the teams to finish in the top 5 made the playoffs

7 of the 10 teams to lead the league in rushing made the playoffs.

In addition, for the heck of it I checked the last 10 Super Bowl teams to see where they ranked in rushing. Going back the last 10 years, teams that made the Super Bowl ranked here in rushing:

18 and 1

4 and 15

11 and 4

32 and 20

24 and 11

6 and 32

23 and 32

4 and 13

18 and 15

5 and 3

Only once in the last 10 years have two top-5 rushing teams faced each other in the Super Bowl -- and that was when Pittsburgh beat Seattle in 2006. Only six of the last 20 Super Bowl teams have ranked in the top 5 in rushing (30 percent), and seven of 20 (35 percent). Teams ranked 23rd or lower in rushing have won the Super Bowl as often as teams ranked in the top 5, and teams ranked in the bottom half of the league in rushing have won just as many Super Bowls as teams in the top half. The lowest-ranked team in the league in rushing won the Super Bowl in 2012 (the New York Giants over the New England Patriots), but the top-ranked team has never won the Super Bowl.

The average rank in rushing for the last 20 Super Bowl teams: 16.05.

The average rank in rushing for the last 10 Super Bowl champions: 14.5.

Basically, being one of the top rushing teams gives you at best a 6-in-10 chance of making the playoffs, and it would appear that doing so requires a team to excel in another area. There is little correlation between being in the Super Bowl and running the ball, though.

Do the Browns have enough on defense to excel and allow a top-5 running game to carry them? I don't think so. They are still lacking at too many vital positions on offense -- quarterback and the skill spots. I reserve the right to change my prediction after training camp and preseason, but at this point I'm sticking with what I said after the draft: 4-12.

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...e-propel-browns

The article can be debated. However, I wanna know what factual evidence supports that the Browns will have a top five rushing offense?

Nice read and I can't help but wonder how the top ten passing teams did?

It was just a hypothetical question he was asked.

'PFF Breaks Down Isaiah Crowell'

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/7/10/8928389/pff-breaks-down-isaiah-crowell

Reading Tim Miller's, from Dawgsbynature, conclusion I think one can interpret completely different:

1. Offensive line faced a stacked box,
2. Crowell was indecisive hitting the hole, or
3. QB/WR weren't much of a threat.

Funny, West never appears in any of the stats listed in the article. I also find it interesting Tate's contribution was no better than the rookie Crowell. Was Tate over hyped?

In order for the run game to truly be successful, teams need to be quick paced. Offense last year always seemed like they were running in quicksand with little rhythm.

That is an interesting breakdown and I agree w/most of it. Certainly, Crow got hit behind the LOS a lot. He also broke off a lot of runs where he gained significant chunks of yardage. The key is to get him past the first level unscathed. He runs low and is a good one-cut runner if you give him a crease.

The OL is certainly more adept at pass blocking than run blocking.

Browns' Wilbert Montgomery calls out his RBs: 'Nobody wants the role'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 09, 2015 at 4:31 PM, updated August 09, 2015 at 5:48 PM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns running back coach Wilbert Montgomery called out his running backs Sunday for not stepping up and demanding the starting job. He also criticized them for not coming to camp and "tip-top shape'' and getting injured.

"How can you play and not want to be a starter?'' said Montgomery. "It just bothers me that guys don't want to be the lead bell-cow guy. I always talk to them about what this game gives you as a young person, what it does for them in life and to their families. So if you want to be a backup then be a backup, but I mean you're gonna get replaced. At some point you've got to be a starter if you want to hang around."

Montgomery, who's had a rash of injuries to his backs, lamented the fact that his second-year backs Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell haven't grabbed the bull by the horns.

"The guys that were here last year, you look for somebody to take that next step,'' he said. "Is it going to happen? I don't know, and that's why I let them know every day, the competition is still the same. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants the role.''

Montgomery cited his own days as a two-time All-Pro back with the Eagles and his years of coaching Hall of Famer Marshall Faulk and three-time Pro Bowler Steven Jackson as the ideal role for a star back.

"You always (got) the one bell cow guy,'' he said."These kids here have to realize what's important for them now. If I want to make money and get the next contract, I've got to show something. I really have to show something and right now I think the importance of that is missing.

Montgomery, who benched Crowell and West at times last year for poor practice habits, challenged not only them to go for the gusto, but rookie Duke Johnson and others as well. Johnson has already been ruled out of the preseason opener Thursday night against the Redskins with his pulled hamstring and has some catching up to do.

"Why can't West take the big step? Why can't (Glenn) Winston take the big step? Again, it's like why can't a young guy like Duke come in and take that step? Somebody has to say, 'You know what, hey, this is my team. I want the lead role. I want to be the guy.''

Montgomery, an old-school tough-as-nails coach, also criticized the backs for not coming to camp in shape and getting injured. Johnson is out indefinitely with the hamstring, West just returned with a strained calf muscle, fullback Malcolm Johnson is out with a shoulder injury, Winston came to camp with a knee injury and underwent a scope last week, and Shaun Draughn suffered a left thumb injury in the scrimmage and will be in a cast for at least the next few days. The Browns have had to call in reinforcements in Jalen Parmele and Tim Flanders.

"The disappointing thing was that all those guys approaching here and not being in tip-top shape,'' he said. "I think that was a total setback and now they are climbing back up hill and that's why they're taking a backseat right now.

"In this game right here, if you're going to be a running back, your job is to get hit and your job is being able to bounce back from injuries really quickly because it's most like playing a game every week.

"Each day you've got to be healthy and ready to go and you've got to play injured, you've got to play sore and you've got to play banged up, and if you can't play with those thing there, you really can't play."

Montgomery wants to avoid the running-back-by-committee approach he took last year with the uneven rookies.

"You need multiple backs, but I want one guy to be able to say, 'Hey, we know who the starter is, like the other 31 teams in the National Football League,'' he said. "All the backs are doing well. It's just that you're looking for the guy you can strap the saddle on and they just say, 'hey, I want the job.'''

Montgomery stressed that Crowell, out of Alabama State, won't win the starting job by default because he's one of the last men standing.

"No, it doesn't mean that, because he's got to show me that he's hungry,'' said Montgomery. "And [what] I mean by hungry, if you want to be a starter, you practice like a starter and you do the things that you'd want. You take care of your body. You show up and do the things that are going to keep you healthy, get treatment after practice, hydrate, do all the little things you have to do in order to be that guy."

So, the Crow isn't showing he wants to be fed?

"I'm not saying he's not showing it, but as a coach, you're looking for more,'' he said. "You're looking for more because I've coached the Marshall Faulks, the Steven Jacksons, the Ray Rices, the Willis McGahees. I know Crow was (an undrafted) free agent.

"These guys were first-round draft picks, so I want to put him at the top of the ladder like these guys were. They wanted the ball, and they demanded the ball. And that's what you want. You want somebody to demand the ball."

Montgomery was actually far more positive about West than he was of Crowell, who hasn't missed any time this camp. Last season, the two backs split the load, with West, the team's third-round pick in 2014, rushing 171 times for 673 yards and four TDs, and Crowell running 148 times for 607 yards and eight TDs.

"Terrance has done everything that we've asked him to do up to this point,'' said Montgomery. "He worked hard. He's working hard every day that he's out on the field. His demeanor is definitely not the same as it was last season. In classrooms, he's always asking the questions. If he's not clear about something, he asks questions. Terrance has done a great job. I'm proud of where he's at right now.''

Montgomery refused to rule out Johnson, the third-round pick out of Miami, as his featured back this season despite the fact he might miss a few preseason games.

"I can't say that Duke won't be the bell cow or Crow won't be the bell cow or West or the other guys, but I do think at looking at what we went through last year. ...that you have opportunity to showcase your abilities and what you can do when you get out on the field.''

Besides, he saw so much potential in Miami's all-time leading rusher during offseason workouts that he's still a bona fide candidate to carry the load.

"He's just missing reps,'' said Montgomery. "He's sitting in meetings all the time, taking notes, doing what we ask him to do, but Duke showed so much in the OTAs and the mini-camp, and before his injury, he showed us the things that we wanted to see, so as long as he stays focused and stays into it, I think he's going to be okay because he had done a lot of things already.

"The running part of it, he's a running back. Put him on his track and tell him his keys, and he's going to be fine. Plus, he played in the system before, so he has a little bit of an advantage than the other guys like Crowell and West. They've never played in the system, and last year was the first time. Duke has been in it all three years in college.

He noted that Johnson is more versatile than the other backs and can be used in multiple ways.

"He gives you another dimension that we don't have in the group that we had last year because Duke can be a slot receiver, he can line up wide, and you can move him all over the field,'' Montgomery said. "It's like he's a total mismatch. In my report, I wrote him up as a Thurman Thomas-type running back when he came out because he can be in any spot and he can take full advantage of his athleticism.''

What's more, he believes Johnson can be an every-down back despite his smaller stature (5-9, 210).

"When you're on this level, everybody can be a lead back,'' said Montgomery. "It's what you're looking for. We don't have a bell-cow guy. The game today is a situational game, and you don't know what personnel you're putting out there on the field. You can go three wides, four wides or two tight ends-one back. It all depends on what the coordinator calls and what personnel he wants out on the field, and Duke can fit into all the personnels.''

Even if Montgomery had a full complement of backs in camp, he still wouldn't know who his starter is yet.

"I have a hard time evaluating guys when they're in their knock-off shorts and no pads and underwear,'' said Montgomery. "I want to see what they do with the pads on because that's what separates them. I've sat in so many meetings and talked about what a guy is in shorts and then we they put the shorts on he's a different animal. I love to see them with the pads on and that's what I really want out here in the next few weeks is to see if somebody is willing to pick up the flag."

Despite the thinned ranks and the lack of reps for so many of his wounded guys, Montgomery still characterized the competition as a "close race.''

"It's early,'' he said. "We only had the pads on for one week. After that, after we start to get into these preseason games, someone step up. The good test starts this week and then we'll practice against Buffalo and that's a big change there. We'll go on from there."

To put it another way, take my running back job ....please.

Well, that is great news...

What an offensive juggernaut "Text" has assembled...

It's always good news from Browns camp!

I see this article from a couple of different perspectives:

1. Wilbert was a very good back. I remember watching him play and he was very effective, but man.......he talks too much. He was the one who brought up the issues between West and Tate last year. Think more, speak less...Wilbert.

2. A lot of fans are assuming that the Browns can win this year by having an excellent defense and a very good running game, but neither is a given---especially the running game. Our OL is better at pass blocking than run blocking. Our backs are not spectacular. I think there were only 2 teams that averaged less yards per carry than us last year.

Aackkk..........I know, I am being negative.

Its up to the coaches, not the players.. Tate was rude and arrogant, and got cut. I like Crowell, and really glad he has turned his life around and been out of off the field trouble.

Did you read the article that is a few posts above yours?

Sorry,but if you want to be a heavy run oriented team,with though defense....you need a franchise back. RBC is a short term approach,that works best if you have a passing game to augment it. These guys will have some real good games,but it's just more of what we've already have seen. Bunch of close losses,because they couldn't get that TD in the red zone ect....

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about running back questions and Ray Rice -- Terry Pluto (photos, video)

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/08/cleveland_browns_running_back.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer on August 10, 2015 at 11:14 AM, updated August 11, 2015 at 7:14 AM

BEREA, Ohio -- I keep telling myself that it's early. The Browns first preseason game isn't until Thursday, when Washington comes to town.

But having been at training camp five times, it's disturbing to see the Browns running game.

Or lack of running game.

I didn't say lack of talent. Or lack of emphasis on the running game.

It's just that the Browns thought they had three very viable options at running back -- Terrance West, Isaiah Crowell and rookie Duke Johnson. Crowell is the only member of that trio to consistently be on the field.

They had a fourth possibility in Glenn Winston, a player claimed on waivers prior to the opening of the 2014 season. General Manager Ray Farmer has been intrigued by Winston for a while, although he has yet to carry the ball in a game for the Browns.

A fifth back is Shaun Draughn, who has been with five different teams since 2011. The coaches like his professional attitude. But Draughn showed up at Sunday's practice with his left arm wrapped up because of a thumb injury. He had been on the field quite a bit until then.

Raw Talent? Yes.

Potential? Certainly.

Dependability? Not right now.

That's an issue with a team planning to base much of its offense on the run. This is a team with young backs and a rookie offensive coordinator. It's a team with yet another new offense. It will be much different than what we saw from the Browns in 2014 when it comes to the running backs.

So these guys need practice time, but that's not been happening because of injuries.

Now you know why running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery sounded so frustrated when he spoke to the media Sunday. He talked about how none of the backs wants to claim the starting position. He wondered why they didn't show up in better shape.

Montgomery doesn't like the idea of running back by committee, but that appears to be the direction that the team is heading.

MISSING THE DUKE

The biggest concern is Johnson. The Browns were thrilled to grab the University of Miami's all-time rusher in the third round. New offensive coordinator John DeFilippo wants to throw passes to backs. Johnson is ideally suited for that role.

But Johnson has been out since the third day of training camp with a significant hamstring injury. He's not expected to practice this week. Coach Mike Pettine is not sure about Johnson's returning the following week.

Here's the problem: Johnson is missing valuable time with his new team in his first pro season.

But here's a bigger problem: If Johnson comes back too soon and tears the hamstring, he could be done for the season.

Hamstring injuries are tricky because they usually linger longer than expected. And a hamstring injury to a running back is serious business. The Browns simply have to wait for Johnson to do his therapy and heal.

Montgomery said this to the media on Sunday about Johnson: "Duke showed so much in the OTAs and the minicamp. Before his injury, he showed us the things that we wanted to see. As long as he stays focused and stays into it, I think he's going to be OK. He's done a lot of things already... The running part of it, he's a running back. Put him on his track and tell him his keys, and he's going to be fine.''

Montgomery said Johnson is familiar with the Browns offense because it is very similar to what his Miami team used the previous three years. Montgomery loves Johnson, comparing him to former Buffalo star Thurman Thomas.

The Browns need to keep that mindset about Johnson.

WHO KNOWS ABOUT WINSTON?

Winston had arthroscopic knee surgery last Thursday. He had a bad knee when he arrived in camp and it never did get better. He will be out for at least a month.

Winston had 113 yards in 19 carries for the 49ers in the 2014 preseason. The Browns claimed him off waivers. With all the injuries, this would have been a good time for Winston to show what he could do.

But he's out, too.

SOMETHING TO PROVE

Terrance West rushed for 679 yards and a 3.9 average last season as a rookie out of Towson State.

West had 100 yards in 16 carries in his first pro game, and he did it in Pittsburgh. The coaches seemed to think West became too secure and soon his production dropped. He was inactive for the fifth game of the season -- a coach's decision because of poor practice habits.

West had good games (94 yards each) against Cincinnati and Baltimore. So his three best games of the season were against AFC North opponents, showing that West has talent.

But he didn't have consistency.

West injured a calf muscle early in camp. He was back Sunday. But calf injuries also can be problematic. It's another injury where it's dangerous to rush back too soon.

Montgomery said he's seen more maturity in West this season.

"I'm proud of where he's at right now," said Montgomery.

But he also said none of the running backs have taken the opportunity to become a starter, and Montgomery is wondering why that is the case.

Actually, injuries seems to be the biggest obstacle right now.

WILL CROWELL TAKE ADVANTAGE?

With Johnson hurt and West just getting healthy, the starting spot is wide open for Crowell.

But Montgomery said Crowell "has to show me that he's hungry."

Crowell is an undrafted free agent from Alabama State who made the team in 2014 based on a strong final preseason game performance. The 5-foot-11, 225-pounder seems to be more physically gifted than West.

But like West, Crowell had games where he seemed to float. He rushed for 607 yards in 148 carries -- a 4.1 average. He rushed for eight touchdowns.

His best game was 88 yards rushing and two touchdowns in Atlanta. He is from Columbus, Ga., and lots of friends and family were at that game. It was the kind of intense, emotional performance the Browns want from him every week.

WONDERING ABOUT RAY RICE

Some fans have emailed me about signing Ray Rice.

The obvious issue is the history of domestic violence and how bringing in Rice would create yet another media circus for the Browns.

From 2009-2012, Rice averaged 1,250 yard per season, a 4.6 yard per carry average with Baltimore. He was a rugged, productive back on a very good team.

But lost in that was how Rice played in 2013, his final NFL season. He averaged 3.1 yards per carry, gained only 660 yards. The Ravens were very concerned that he had turned into an old back very fast because of all the heavy work load in his early seasons.

There were doubts about Rice the running back before the domestic abuse.

Rice told ESPN that a hip injury was the reason for his decline in 2013, and that he's healthy now. He is only 28, and insists he can still play.

I find it interesting that several fans have contacted me about the Rice...but not Chris Johnson.

Consider that Rice didn't play last year. In 2013, he had that 3.1 average.

In 2014, Johnson ran for 663 yards = a 4.3 average -- with the Jets. He caught 24 passes. Johnson is 29 and on the down side of his career, but what makes Rice a better prospect right now?

I'd rather wait for the current group of running backs to heal than bring in Rice and see if he has anything left. His lack of production the last time he played is a major concern.

Many running backs gas quickly. Ben Tate was on empty at the age of 26 last season. A few weeks from now if the Browns backs are still hurt and the situation is a mess, then it would be worth giving someone else a look -- and I prefer Johnson.

But not right now.

THE COMMITTEE IS NOT DISMISSED

Montgomery doesn't want a repeat of 2014, where no one emerged as a full-time starting running back. Tate, Crowell and West all started games. None could hold the job.

Crowell and West rushed for a combined 1,280 yards and 12 touchdowns. Pretty good production. But Montgomery wants a big-time back to emerge. Not sure that will happen, unless Johnson heals quickly and grabs the job.

So it may be running back by committee once again this season.

For the Browns, the good news is running back tends to be one of the easiest positions for young players to learn. If these injuries remain minor, the position might be sorted out by opening day.

But right now, there are a lot of question marks and there's a veteran running back coach who doesn't have many answers.



(end)

Don't care if we have four no name running backs that are under 150 lbs, have a fumble history and etc etc... just say no to Ray Rice. No...

Ray Rice playing for the Browns? It's been discussed in Cleveland

BEREA, Ohio—No critical mass has been reached in Cleveland’s backfield just yet, but with the Browns clearly dissatisfied with their young rushers early this preseason, file away the Browns as one of the more logical and likely landing spots for former Baltimore running back Ray Rice.

Browns coach Mike Pettine acknowledged to SI.com Tuesday that the club has discussed signing Rice, who has been out of the league since being released by Baltimore last September, the day the infamous elevator surveillance camera footage of his attack on his then fiancee surfaced.

Pettine was asked if the Browns were considering adding a veteran to the mix at running back, to go with second-year players Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West and rookie third-round pick Duke Johnson. “We’ve talked about it, but I don’t think we’re there at this point,” Pettine said.

Could that veteran be Rice? Pettine was quick to point out the ties he and at least one member of his coaching staff have with Rice.

“Of course it’s a natural question here because of [Browns running backs coach] Wilbert [Montgomery], and because I was with Ray when he was a Ravens rookie (in 2008) and know a lot of people in Baltimore,” Pettine said. “Obviously Wilbert was his position coach for Ray’s first six years in the league (2008–13). I’m not going to say it didn’t come up in discussion, but at this point we’re not there yet.”
Rice never played in Baltimore for any other running backs coach but Montgomery, unless you count the 2014 preseason, just before his career went into hibernation. Under Montgomery, Rice earned three Pro Bowl berths, and topped more than 1,100 rushing yards and 1,600 yards from scrimmage in four consecutive seasons (2009–12). His 9,214 yards from scrimmage in '08–13 ranked fourth overall in the NFL in that span. In addition, Pettine served as the Ravens’ outside linebackers coach in 2008, before leaving for a job on Rex Ryan’s staff with the Jets the following year.

Rice, 28, continues to generate little or no interest on the NFL’s free-agent market, in part because he had the worst season of his career in 2013 (the most recent season he played), averaging just 3.1 yard per carry and rushing for just 660 yards, and in part because of how radioactive his name became as the face of the league’s domestic violence problem. The running-back needy Cardinals reportedly offered another veteran free-agent rusher, ex-Jets and Titans star Chris Johnson, a one-year deal on Tuesday, but Rice still remains a man without a team.

Asked if Rice’s recent controversial past would preclude him from being signed in Cleveland, or whether anyone in the Browns organization viewed him as untouchable because of the potential for a public backlash to his arrival, Pettine said his club would deal with that question only when the need for a veteran runner became pressing enough.
“I don’t think it’s gotten to that point, to say, ‘Hey, I’d kind of be comfortable with it,’” Pettine said. “But I think it would get to that point if we arrived at it from a football standpoint, then asked that question. Instead of working the process backwards. Why bother with asking the question if the need never presents itself?”

Perhaps the first game or two of the Browns preseason schedule will help determine the level of need in the backfield, one way or another.

In Browns camp on Aug. 9, Montgomery pulled few punches in critiquing the first two weeks of work turned in by his top three running backs, bemoaning that no one had seized the lead in the competition for the No. 1 job—“Nobody wants the role”—and labeling it “a total setback” that some of his backs had reported to camp in less than top condition. Montgomery also reminded his group that running backs have to play through pain and injuries at times.

West missed time last week with a calf strain, returning to practice over the weekend, while Johnson has battled a lingering hamstring problem that cost him the Browns’ intrasquad scrimmage on Saturday in Columbus, and will sideline him for Cleveland’s preseason opener against visiting Washington on Thursday. In addition, Crowell, last year’s second-leading rusher for the Browns with 603 yards, has yet to distance himself from the pack, and the whole picture in the backfield has been troubling for a team that hopes to build its offense around a strong and consistent running game.
Pettine called the fact that his top three running backs didn’t report to camp in great condition “disappointing,” adding “it was Duke as well. It was the three of them. That’s a tough deal to have, three guys in that room and they struggled. They struggled early and two of them obviously got hurt.”

Montgomery’s unvarnished message-sending had the full blessing of his boss, the Browns second-year head coach. “I don’t want my assistants saying anything publicly that they wouldn’t tell the player to his face,” Pettine said. “But Wilbert’s old-school, blunt force trauma, however you want to categorize it. That’s Wilbert. I had no issue with that. Those young guys, sometimes they need a bucket of cold water thrown in their face, and Wilbert’s just the man for the job.”

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/11/ray-rice-cleveland-browns-mike-pettine-wilbert-montgomery

We area society of second chances.

Montgomery knows Rice well. If none of the other RB's are available or are unwilling to seize the opportunity then I see no reason why not?

He has paid the price for his actions in many ways. Although the act was cowardly and despicable if you give others a second chance for violating various rules then Rice should be treated no differently.

The reason I would see is his last season played. His productivity dropped to underwhelm everyone. He's hit the RB wall with so many miles on his legs. Very few RB's reverse or escape that wall. The evidence IMO of the 2013 season indicate Rice would be of no help at the RB position.

yea... but he never ran behind a o-line like we have.......

You might wish to use purple for those that may miss that one. lol

Well lets just say his legs are fresh. I think it will all depend on the health of the RBs is this smoke as in where there is smoke there is fire. Or is this a bored media just waiting for a story as they don't have our RBs rated high and then we got Duke down and West out a few days and Doughns out - yeah give it to Mikey...its seems we are the ones and then when we don't they actually will come down on us...as we should have gotten Rice...lol

So who knows. He hasn't played in a over a year. Rust has to be there if he is in shape his body is ready to take some punishment cause of the lay off.

Maybe he'll be the Veteran Leader we were hoping from whats his face.

Of course it's RBC again....not sure why Pluto,needed to take the long winded way home to figure that one out. The team is essentially the same one we saw last year,but with a less sporadic QB under center in McCown. Pettine and Farmer have told us from day one,who they were,what they believe,and the type of club the Browns will be...and it's not a powerhouse offensive approach,that's for sure. The way I see it,one of them is getting the boot if this season is ugly...and my money is on Farmer being canned.

Good post. The reason I am leery of signing him has way more to do w/his sharp decrease in production than his spat w/his future wife.

You bring him in and take a look.

It may serve a dual purpose:
1.) motivate the RB's on the roster

2.) Rice will more than likely see this as a real chance to redeem himself.

There is little risk just cut him if he does not look and act the part.

I don't disagree with you at all. I was simply looking at it and presenting it in a purely football aspect.

I think that's why the Ravens found the decision to let him go as easy.

Winners and losers from second week of camp

Moving down

Browns running backs

Rookie Duke Johnson was expected to be the riser of this group, but he's been on the shelf. Terrance West (calf) returned to practice Saturday after missing most of last week. And presumptive starter Isaiah Crowell got an earful from running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery.

"How can you play and not want to be a starter? It just bothers me that guys don't want to be the lead bell-cow guy," he said via the Akron Beacon-Journal. "(Crowell's) got to show me that he's hungry. If you want to be a starter, you practice like a starter ... You take care of your body. You show up and do the things that are going to keep you healthy, get treatment after practice, hydrate, do all the little things you have to do in order to be that guy."

Now that I think of it, this has become a trend:

Link

Embattled Browns' backs Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West fail to impress in 20-17 loss to the Redskins

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/08/embattled_browns_running_backs.html

By Tom Reed, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 14, 2015 at 6:00 AM, updated August 14, 2015 at 10:23 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Four days after getting called out, the Browns running backs lived down to the candid assessment of their position coach.

Neither Isaiah Crowell nor Terrance West made a case to be the starter in a 20-17 loss to the Redskins in an exhibition opener Thursday at FirstEnergy Stadium. Both backs were ineffective as the Browns rushed for 45 yards on 19 carries.

The effort followed Wilbert Montgomery's criticism of his backs, questioning their conditioning level and the desire to become the "bell-cow guy."

"Nobody wants the role," the assistant said Sunday.

Browns coach Mike Pettine admitted there has been discussion about signing Ray Rice -- who sat out last season after a highly-publicized domestic-violence issue -- but added such talk is "premature."

The coach preached patience following an exhibition game in which Crowell rushed for six yards on four carries and West added 10 yards on four attempts.

The focus, Pettine said, is getting more production from a young group that's been riddled with injuries. Rookie Duke Johnson (hamstring) remains sidelined and Terrance West is just returning from a strained calf.

"No, we have a plan," Pettine said. "It is a long preseason. Obviously, Terrance coming off the injury and Crow probably having too heavy a load at practice, I am not going to hit the panic button after the first preseason game about our run game. We will be fine."

The rushing attack is expected to play a big part in the Browns' offense, but it's struggled throughout training camp. Montgomery blasted his group over the weekend and Pettine told Sports Illustrated the assistant had his support for taking such a critical tone.

If the coaches hoped the tough talk and Rice rumors might spur improvement they saw none of it against the Redskins. Backup quarterback Johnny Manziel led the team in rushing with 14 yards.

"I don't feel like we struggled with anything," said Crowell, who started. "We just didn't run the ball as much and everybody, we got to get a rhythm to run the ball. The linemen (got to) get a rhythm, the running backs (got to) get a rhythm . . ."

West left without speaking to reporters.

Crowell said Rice stories are not unsettling to him.

"No, I don't even pay attention to it," he said. "I didn't know anything about it so I can control what I can control and let the coaches and (everyone), let them do what they want to do

"The only people I heard anything said about Ray Rice is y'all."

Pettine tried to quell the Rice talk in his post-game remarks.

"I think it is premature to talk about that," he said. "We are comfortable with where our room is. We just want to get those guys back and see what we have. I know a lot of people have 'connected the dots' given his circumstances and ours, but it is too early to talk about it."



(end)

This article is as bad as the fluff pieces that Kevin Jones writes. It's just that in this case, the author is trying to exaggerate the bad rather than the good.

I don't think either back played badly. Our OL isn't the best at run blocking and neither guy got a ton of opportunities.

jc...

A running back is only as good as his Oline blocking.

The very first pre-season game in a new offense with your best lineman not playing...way too soon to judge the quality of our run game..imo.

Its harder to get the zone stretch going in preseason cause guys arent used to cutting their own DL. By the opener, the OL will have their nasty streak back. I wasnt happy with their performance but Mack only played one series and Joe didnt play at all.

The media is making their own stories. Asked pet directly if they have thought about bringing in Ray Rice and he said it was discussed. Next Day, Browns considering bringing in Rice!! lol

Crowell and West will get the job done. Add Johnson to the mix, and we have a good core.

If we get Ray Rice, we'd be throwing money straight into the trashcan.

. . .Nor should he IMHO.

Just got to get them healthy and on the field. If not we got to raid the waiver wires.

jmho

Maybe we could get this guy back, look at him hit those holes!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbWnO2cItBk

LMFAO a Cleveland Brown group I have on Facebook posted a picture of that and I actually spit up some of my coffee onto my keyboard in an uncontrollably fashion!

Totally hilarious. How can you not see that gaping, I mean bluntly obvious huge area of no humans being in? Just how?

I WILL NOT NAME ANY NAMES HERE that were mad when we got rid of him, but all I gotta ask is Trent Richardson.... WHAT HAPPENED? I mean really!

Oh, my Lord. I really feel for the guy....there's got to be a mental issue there causing those brain farts.

I don't get it.

Stevie Wonder could have found that hole.

'Trent Richardson probably had a perfectly good reason for running away from that hole, jerks'

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/8/16...son-for-running

Just a part of the article:

````````````````````

This isn't the first time he's done this, so maybe he knows something we don't. Clearly he has to have a reason for repeatedly trying this.

1. Those really are his friends and he wants to say "hi" to them

Just because a lot of us are introverts, that doesn't mean Trent has to be. He appreciates the hard work his linemen are putting in and he wants to tell them thank you. Even if that means risking getting tackled. Trent is just a good friend.

2. He doesn't know he has the ball

Maybe he thinks one of the guys in the pile has the ball and he's going to tell them about the giant gaping hole that will surely lead directly to the end zone. "Hey! Guys! Over here! I found the place where we're supposed to go! Quit wrestling with each other and come over here so we can get off the field and get some Capri Suns!"

3. There is a bomb in the middle of that pile that only Trent Richardson can disarm

Winning isn't everything, especially when the fate of the world is at stake. Trent is a selfless man, willing to sacrifice stats and victories for the good of mankind. Thank you, Trent Richardson. Thank you for saving us.

4. The end zone has cooties

Can't blame the guy if that's the case.

So quit assuming you know everything about football and making fun of a nice guy who doesn't want cooties and just saved your life.

★★★

yo everybody is going in on TR.

any one of us could've scored on that play. could drive a mac truck through that hole.

Hell I could've backed one through that, with no mirrors...

Hey maybe if Oakland releases him our Browns could bring him back? They love players like him. So surprised they ever let him get away. Browns would probably do what the Raiders did and give him a huge signing bonus to.

I think Willis McGahee has a better chance of being brought back...

if we are a run first team we might need to get above 3 yards per carry. its not really our strong suite and its what we are counting on, it seems....

That's really what surprises me. After watching our first pre season game and watching us try to run behind the right side of our OL, I'm surprised the discussion isn't about our poor performance in the run game than on a player long gone.

Given that we have had injuries galore at RB, and that we jostled people around because we held Joe Thomas out, that isn't my biggest concern. However, the fact that Bowie looked as bad as he did was a huge concerns to me. I wasn't as concerned about Erving, because IIRC, he had worked exclusively on the right side so far, and was thrown in at LT ... but Bowie really worried me.

Mike Pettine says Duke Johnson 'looks explosive' on 1st day back in pads: Quick hitters

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/08/mike_pettine_on_duke_johnsons.html#incart_river

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 23, 2015 at 4:43 PM, updated August 24, 2015 at 12:42 PM

BEREA, Ohio -- Rookie running back Duke Johnson practiced in pads Saturday for the first time since Aug. 1, and hardly looked like he'd been nursing a sore hamstring for the past three weeks.

Johnson churned out some yards in a 9-on-9 inside running drill and then had a pass from Josh McCown glance off his hands in 7-on-7s. He later caught a post route from Johnny Manziel in 7-on-7s and then a right screen from McCown, which he turned upfield for a long gain.

"His legs looked fresh,'' said Pettine. "I am not sure who he beat on the inside post – he looks explosive."

On one play, fellow back Isaiah Crowell blocked for him.

"It's tough on a defense when you have both tailbacks out there,'' said coach Mike Pettine. "You can use Duke as a wideout. It just gives you a little more flexibility from a formation standpoint, which then lends itself to a possible mismatch when you use Duke as a wideout. You can react to what a defense puts out there and call your play accordingly. That is something I am sure we will use."

Johnson said Saturday that the long layoff wouldn't set him back for the opener, and after watching him Sunday, you have almost had to believe him.

But the Browns had him on a pitch count Sunday.

"The last stretch of practice, we didn't use him,'' said Pettine. "On the last play, Flip (offensive coordinator John DeFilippo) wanted to use him and I used executive veto power and pulled Duke out of the huddle because he had sat for a little too long. He was right at his number."

Running back Shaun Draughn, who's mentored Johnson, was glad to see the rookie back in action.

"I actually love Duke's style,'' said Draughn. "I told him he reminds me of me a little bit. Another guy that looks up to me, and I respect that. He's coming into his own, he set his self apart and what he did, he set records. We're similar but we're different."

Draughn gave Johnson high marks for his first real practice since Aug. 1.

"Like I said, I love to see him out there making people miss,'' he said. "He's just so smooth with this routes and so quick. I just like to see him play."

Draughn back, too

Draughn practiced in pads without a red caution jersey for the first time since injuring his thumb in the Orange and Brown scrimmage Aug. 7 at Ohio State.

Draughn's return was a welcome sight for Wilbert Montgomery, who's relying on the 28-year-old to help set the tone for the younger backs.

"Yeah, those guys, I think they definitely look up to me,'' said Draughn. "I try to set the bar high, how we practice, how we should practice. Coach Montgomery, he has given me free reign to really coach the guys up from my perspective. He played the game, too, but somebody that they can relate to that's actually still playing so he gives me free reign to take these guys under my wing and tell them a little bit of what I know."

Draughn said it's a misconception that the young backs are immature.

"Don't let the age or their years playing fool you because there's a lot of mature guys in the room that can step up at any time."

Draughn will continue to practice with a cast on his thumb and do as much as he can do.

Other quick hitters:

* Browns second-round linebacker Nate Orchard was excused Sunday for personal reasons.

* In 9-on-9 inside run drills, Phil Taylor and Danny Shelton played up front together, with Taylor on the nose and Shelton at end.
"That is pretty standard in short-yardage situations,'' said Pettine. "We will get our bigger bodies out there."

* Pettine said the starting five offensive linemen of Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio, Alex Mack, John Greco and Mitchell Schwartz are not written in stone.

"It is looking that way, but I wouldn't say that for sure,'' said Pettine. "We still have a decent amount of football to play with the third preseason game. We will see what happens and how we are going to approach the fourth. I wouldn't say that yet."

* Receiver Dwayne Bowe (hamstring) practiced in full pads today for the first time since the first week of August. However, Terrelle Pryor was still idle, and Pettine warned Saturday that the window is narrowing on his chances.

* The Browns' secondary is still as thin as parchment paper. The following defensive backs sat out Sunday's practice: CB Joe Haden (hamstring), CB Justin Gilbert (hip flexor), FS Tashaun Gipson (calf), CB Robert Nelson Jr. (hamstring), FS Jordan Poyer (concussion), and CB K'Waun Williams (abdominal). Cornerback Pierre Desir is back, but not full strength yet. Rookie Charles Gaines started opposite Tramon Williams again during Sunday's practice.

* The following are other Browns who did not practice: OL Michael Bowie (shoulder), FB Luke Lundy (concussion), LB Barkevious Mingo (knee), QB Connor Shaw (right thumb), TE Randall Telfer (foot), OL Joe Thomas (rest), and RB Glenn Winston (knee).



(end)

P.S. I hope he can stay healthy for awhile, as I really wanna see him play. You know?

Browns have more to learn about RBs in final week of preseason

Link

As he continued to gather information about two of his injured running backs, Mike Pettine was in standby mode Sunday when it came to his assessment of the position with one more preseason game left on the schedule.

Pettine anticipated the position group to be among the top areas discussed during an afternoon full of personnel meetings with general manager Ray Farmer. Since the Browns first donned pads at the start of the month, Cleveland’s running backs have not been all healthy at the same time, and Saturday’s win at Tampa Bay only furthered that trend.

Rookie running back Duke Johnson Jr. had his highly anticipated preseason debut short-circuited by a crushing, second-quarter hit from Tampa Bay’s Mike Jenkins. Johnson was diagnosed with a concussion and will be under the watch of the league’s protocol.

When he’s practiced, Johnson has been an impressive, change-of-pace player capable of making an impact as both a runner and pass-catcher. He was in Saturday’s starting lineup but touched the ball just twice.

“We have seen what he can do in practice and that is important. That is why we were so positive and optimistic about it,” Pettine said. “Football is about availability. He hasn’t been available for much of the preseason. While we are hopeful about the potential, at the same time, it is discouraging to not have him out there.”

Shaun Draughn, who is dealing with an injured hand, has yet to carry the ball in a preseason game but he made his first on-field appearance Saturday on special teams. Pettine said he would need to see a medical report on Draughn before being able to gauge how close he is to being ready to carry the ball.

On the plus side for the Browns backfield, fullback Malcolm Johnson saw his first preseason action Saturday after dealing with a shoulder injury.

Pettine did not rule out adding a running back over the next few days as the team pares down the roster from 90 to 75 players. The deadline to be down to 75 is 4 p.m. Tuesday, but many teams around the league got a jumpstart on the process and flooded the free agent market with new faces.

“If we do come to the decision that we need to add a back that is not here, we’ll look at the list of backs that are available,” Pettine said.

Second-year running backs Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell have played in all three preseason games and have seen their production steadily increase with each one. Both had double-digit runs during the Cleveland first-team offense’s two scoring drives Saturday to help “take the pressure off” quarterback Josh McCown.

West is the team’s leader in the preseason with 78 yards on 22 carries while Crowell has 47 on 17. It’s uncertain how much playing time the pair will get in Thursday’s preseason finale, a game in which Cleveland is expected to rest many of its starters.

“It’s a fine line with the preseason,” Pettine said. “You want to minimize guys’ exposure, but at the same time, you want to get them work. You see what the whole league is going through. You want them out there, but then there’s the risk of injury. Young guys that haven’t played against NFL competition, you always want to get them out there and get an evaluation so you can get a taste of what regular season will be like.”

Duke is an injury waiting to happen. People like to say: how many games did he miss in college? I say, how many snaps did he miss? And how has he fared thus far in the NFL?

I like the Crow. He hit the hole like it should be hit.

He has been "in the NFL" for a total of four months. He had one hamstring injury (which could happen to anyone) and was hung out to dry by McCown (will happen to everyone).

Let's wait awhile before we make any declarations about his injury proneness.

You wait. I made my prediction that he would be oft-injured BEFORE we drafted him. I see how he runs. I see his body type. I saw his history.

I'll stand by my prediction while you wait.

Fair enough?

Absolutely.

Just a little update:

'RB Duke Johnson out awhile with concussion, but Cleveland Browns have no plans to add a back this week'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/08/rb_duke_johnson_out_awhile_wit.html#incart_river

'Browns trying to add veteran running back'

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...partner=ya5nbcs

Posted by Zac Jackson on September 5, 2015, 12:17 PM EDT

AP

As the Browns finalize their roster cuts and sort through their outside options, a team source tells PFT the team has prioritized finding a veteran running back either by trade, waiver claim or signing at some point this weekend.

The source said veteran players have relayed to the coaches their feelings that the younger backs and the offense in general will benefit from a veteran presence, on and off the field.

Second-year backs Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West both played a lot last season, but neither had a strong camp this summer. Third-round rookie Duke Johnson missed most of the preseason with a sore hamstring, started in the first preseason game in which he was healthy enough to play and suffered a concussion early in the second quarter, leaving both his availability and readiness for the start of the season in question.

Shaun Draughn, a veteran of four NFL seasons added late last season, missed much of the preseason with a broken thumb. He played in four games for the Browns last season but did not carry the ball.

The Browns acknowledged last month that they’ve had internal discussions about Ray Rice, and there are ties. Browns Coach Mike Pettine was in Baltimore early in Rice’s career, and Browns running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery was Rice’s position coach for six seasons.

There have been rumors that the Broncos are trying to trade Montee Ball, and teams are also watching what happens with the Seahawks after the team added veteran Fred Jackson on Friday. The Seahawks are reportedly trying to trade Christine Michael.

Crowell sat out the preseason finale with most of the team’s regular starters. West carried nine times for 35 yards and finished the preseason having averaged 3.6 yards per carry. Crowell averaged 2.8 on 17 preseason carries.

At the very least it seems like there are several people in Cleveland that are not fans of Terrence West.

what an unfortunate name..Christine, for a guy...parents are idiots

'Report: Browns have spoken to Montee Ball'

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...bcs&ref=yfp

Posted by Josh Alper on September 9, 2015, 6:25 PM EDT

The Browns got running back Duke Johnson back at practice on Wednesday and coach Mike Pettine said that he is fully cleared after a concussion and could play “a significant role” on Sunday if he practices well the rest of the week.

Even with Johnson in the lineup, the Browns only have two tailbacks on their current 53-man roster and were talking about adding a player at the position even before they traded Terrance West to the Titans. The recently released Montee Ball could be part of that discussion.

Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Browns have spoken to Ball since he became a free agent after clearing waivers earlier this week. Cabot reports several other teams have also been in contact with the former Bronco, who was a second-round pick in 2013, and that it is “uncertain” where he’ll land.

The Browns passed on a chance to claim Ball in time to have him at practice this week, as did any other team that might have interest. That suggests Ball may remain on the market through Week One, which may bring injuries or other developments that land him with a new team.



(end)

https://twitter.com/AdamtheBullFAN

I heard from my Moms sisters son in law who is a cousin 42 times removed of Payton Manning that they plan on putting Ball on the PS.....


Just funnin

Who is this Payton Manning you speak of?

Read this:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-nfl-college-football-power-running-counter-running/

That was a great read 15. Thanks!

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk LOL

I'm sure just about everybody knows by now but if ya don't, we got another running back:

Terrelle Pryor: Cutting me for Robert Turbin will be a mistake for Browns

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ake-for-browns/

Posted by Josh Alper on September 10, 2015, 4:50 PM EDT

When PFT reported that the Browns were pulling the plug on wide receiver Terrelle Pryor’s stay with the team, we didn’t yet know who the Browns were bringing in to take his roster spot.

Pryor confirmed that he’s out in Cleveland and he also broke the news about who the newest member of the team will be. Pryor told Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com that the Browns have claimed running back Robert Turbin off of waivers from the Seahawks. The Browns have confirmed a move that Pryor predicts will come back to haunt them.

“This will be a mistake by them,” Pryor said.

When Pryor was waived by the Bengals in the spring, there were reports that teams lower in the pecking order put in claims for his services so Pryor may have a chance to prove the Browns right in the near future. Perhaps even sooner than Turbin will be able to play for the Browns as he was placed on injured reserve with an ankle injury before reaching the injury settlement that set him free from Seattle.

Turbin will look so good in street clothes on the sidelines for a month...Another great move "Text."
I wish they would permanently suspend him.

You Pryor homers have a point. At least we could have seen what he could have done since he is actually healthy.

Remember, this is Cleveland. As I like to say, we take who we can get.

We at least have colorful uniforms though!!...

While I wanted to see what Pryor could do, I like the fact that we grabbed Turbin on waivers. I think the kid has a world of talent, and he will be a very useful player when he recovers from his ankle injury.

If we had more injuries onn the team, we might not have claimed him, but since we will have a ton of healthy players sitting out inactive on Sunday, we could aford to make Turbin one of them.

Pryor was not going to be active anytime soon, and a team claiming him will have the same questions we had. They also will probably see him sit out inactive for at least half the season. They will have to drop a receiver who can help them immediately for one who cannot. Given that many teams carry only 5 receivers, this could be dicey for another team.

We were carrying 7 WR, and that is a lot. I cannot help but hope that we wind up being able to bring him back, but I do really like the fact that we claimed Turbin.

Seeing what Pryor could do, or not do, was one of the only things I was looking forward to this season. I do get why he was released, but I would have let go of one our TEs instead. Housler, Dray, Barnidge. I think we have seen the ceiling on those guys and they are nothing special and easily replaceable.

Would he have though? All signs pointed to him being inactive for a few games at least so not sure how true that even is.

well they were practicing the wildcat with him for the jets game so why would they do that if they knew he would be inactive or cut for that matter?

Did the Browns sign another injured running back just in case Duke Johnson heals?

As much as I liked the potential of Pryor this could end up being a good move...But let me put on my Great Karnak Turbin (pun intended). Come week 10 when Turbin puts up a good game. Some posters are going to say - HEY Farmer made a great pick up. Karnak looking int the future sees.... "Farmer was suspended he had nothing to do with this move" lol

Crow said the phrase 'prove/show what I can do' about a billion times in his presser. I think the kid is about as focused and dialed in as can be. I like the thought of having the one 'main back' and not the by committee moto.

He secures the ball, I think Crow can burn defenses if he's given some space to work with...

Seattle Seahawks tape study: Robert Turbin and a missed touchdown

Robert Turbin is a great backup running back for the Seattle Seahawks. His receiving skills and blitz pickup abilities make him an ideal third-down back. Unfortunately, Turin’s running skills keep him from being an every-down back in the NFL.

A great example of what troubles him came in the first quarter of last Friday’s preseason game against the Denver Broncos. Turbin had a path to the end zone, but his inability to properly read the blocking cost the Seahawks a touchdown.

The blocking on this play is pretty straightforward. Justin Britt, Luke Wilson, Doug Baldwin and FB Brandon Cottom lead, while JR Sweezy and everyone to his left seal the inside. The result is a hole through the B-gap.

This isn’t inside zone. There’s no attempt to extend the defense laterally or create cutback opportunities. This is about as basic of a run play as they come.



When Turbin gets the ball, the play-side blocking is still a bit jumbled. Cotton and Baldwin haven’t engaged their defenders, but the interior line is already getting their defenders turned.

The play is designed to follow the red line. The yellow line is the path that Turbin ultimately takes.

[img]When Turbin gets the ball, the play-side blocking is still a bit jumbled. Cotton and Baldwin haven’t engaged their defenders, but the interior line is already getting their defenders turned.

The play is designed to follow the red line. The yellow line is the path that Turbin ultimately takes.



As Tubin get closer to the hole, the blocking has developed. There’s a clear path to the end zone if Turbin run through the hole as the play is designed.

Instead, he cuts back to his left where there are two unblocked defenders. By going in that direction, the blocking on the inside is actually pushing some of the blocked defenders into his path.



A step later it is easy to see how much of a mistake he made. Turbin gets stopped for no gain, but if he’d read his blocking correctly it likely would have been a touchdown.


Here is the play in real time. You can clearly see that if Turbin doesn’t cut back inside, he gets to the goal line before anyone gets a hand on him.

https://vine.co/v/ep1q5vVP7Bb

This isn’t just a problem on one play. These kinds of mistake have plagued Turbin his entire career. He is a physically gifted player who will never be as productive running the ball as many similar players.

Given his role in the offense, that is something the Seahawks can live with. The Seahawks have created a role for Turbin that fits his skill set, which is why we see him in the two-minute drill and on third and long.

It is simply importantly to keep in mind that Turbin is not Marshawn Lynch insurance. If Lynch gets hurt, Seattle needs someone else who can carry the running game.

That is why it is so important that one of the Michael, Rawls, Smith trio shows that they can carry the load. Turbin has his role, and can handle a series or two in a game, but that’s it.

If Lynch is missing for an extended period, someone else is going to have to step up and carry Seattle’s offense.

http://12thmanrising.com/2015/08/16/seattle-seahawks-tape-study-robert-turbin/

Tony Grossi ‏@TonyGrossi 2h2 hours ago
How much longer before #Browns shut down their #Seahawks pipeline? John Moffit, Paul McQuistan, Michael Bowie, Robert Turbin....

Tony Grossi ‏@TonyGrossi 30m30 minutes ago
On the #Browns pipeline to Seattle, I was reminded by a reader of another bust -- FB Kiero Small. That's 4 busts prior to Turbin.

Great...so he's Trent Richardson?

Kinda sounds like it. But at a lower cost and lower expectations.

never heard of this guy. but i was wondering why the seahawks let him walk instead of just keeping him on IR.

j/c

I've seen Turbin play a few times. When he entered into the league, I thought Seattle was grooming him to be Lynch's replacement. I was shocked when Seattle waived him. If it weren't for this, I would get excited getting Turbin.

I believe Seattle waived Turbin thinking no one would pickup injured. Getting him later when he is close to returning. Turbin is very similar to Crowell and should be a very good complement.

I can't speak for all his plays as I didn't see them but I will speak on this play...he's wrong.

In that last pic he is saying he should have went to the RED line route.

How...there are 4 bodies blocking the path given...he would have to step around it left and that pile seems to be driven there or take a step back and go to the right of that pile going for a loss cause 94 is going to get him with any pile go around. Also right at the point of the Red line is a WR #19 blocking a DB at the LOS the blocker is falling to their knees while the defender is in complete control.

The Red line is nice...but what imaginary hole is it drawn through???

Again its just one play but it does not represent what the author is trying to say.

What I do know about Durbin he is an excellent blocker can catch the ball and is a tough hard runner. He will not be our Go To guy but if blocking becomes an issue he will be very important.

He also can play FB in a 3rd down situation.
jmho - we did not get him to be our GO TO Guy...just a darn good back up!

Just looking at those pics of that single solitary play it's obvious he sucks.

I see a play where (I assume) Turbin sees a wall of people to the right, and open space to the left..

Which way would you go?

Hell I'd argue the two defenders to the left of him may not have even been in his line of sight..

Browns elevate RB Shaun Draughn to active roster

Link

The Browns roster is back up to 53 players for Sunday's season opener vs. the Jets

The Cleveland Browns on Saturday signed running back Shaun Draughn to the active roster from the practice squad.

Draughn originally signed with the Browns on Dec. 3, 2014, and appeared in four games as a reserve last season. He has appeared in 30 career games since being signed by Washington as an undrafted free agent in 2011. In addition to four games with the Browns, he also appeared in four games with the Chargers and two with the Bears in 2014. Draughn’s full bio can be found on pages 106-108 of the 2015 Cleveland Browns media guide.

"
He has appeared in 30 career games"

how can he be on the practice squad?

Browns Mailbag: Why should fans expect better results from the run game?

Link

The Browns are back to work and so are we on another strong edition of the Browns Mailbag.

Let’s get right to it.

I have a great deal of respect for Pettine. I understand why they sent Terrance West packing. That said, why should we expect a better result this year? Are skill players’ results that much of a function of line play? - Kevin C., Half Moon Bay, Calif.

Like everything in football, this isn’t a black and white issue. It’s gray, and the reason for Cleveland’s failure to consistently run the ball last week against the Jets is equally shared between the offensive line and running backs.

When Pettine broke down Sunday’s performance inside a room underneath MetLife Stadium, he focused on the offensive line. Simply put, it wasn’t a good day for a unit that aspires to be one of the league’s best. Other than Joe Thomas, each of the starters had at least one costly penalty. Many of the runs made by Duke Johnson Jr. and Isaiah Crowell never had a chance because the Jets’ defensive line, which helped the team rank fifth in rush defense last season, had such strong penetration.

“I think overall we didn’t do a good enough job of blocking their front in order to sustain any type of rushing attack,” Pettine said.

On Monday, the focus shifted a bit to the running backs. An evaluation of the film showed missed opportunities for both Crowell and Johnson, the latter of whom appeared to make something out of nothing more than Crowell in this particular game.

The debate about the value of running backs has been raging for years. Of the top 10 rushers from Week 1, two were first-round picks, four were second-rounders, one was a third-rounder and the rest were either Day 3 picks or undrafted. After a couple of years of no running backs going in the first round, two were selected on Day 1 of the 2015 NFL Draft.

Basically, it comes down to the player, the offensive line and the system. The Browns believe they have the right pieces in place in all three categories. The execution just has to be better than it was Week 1.

Any update where Josh Lenz might be heading to? Seemed like a good fit, hate to see him go elsewhere. - David R., Hubbard

According to multiple reports Tuesday, Lenz was one of nine players to try out with the New York Giants. There’s no word yet on if Lenz or any of those players were offered to sign deals with the team.

Lenz is a hard worker who put together some great tape during his time with the Browns. An opportunity will arise sooner or later.

Chances of EJ Bibbs starting or playing significant minutes by Week 3 or 4? - Chris M., Ankeny, Iowa

Bibbs’ hard work, dating back to early May when he arrived in Berea for rookie mini camp, was rewarded with a spot on the 53-man roster. Though he was inactive for last week’s game, the team’s faith in Bibbs was displayed when he remained with the squad amid a handful of transactions throughout last week. Bibbs showed he can catch the ball and make plays in space, and offensive coordinator John DeFilippo showed a willingness to incorporate his tight ends as receivers. Jim Dray, Rob Housler and Gary Barnidge were targeted a combined nine times against the Jets and came away with four receptions. We’ll continue to monitor Bibbs’ progress.

Why do the Browns coaches put up with all those penalties that are drive killers and kills the momentum, sometimes two or three in a row? There doesn’t seem to be any discipline on that team. There’s no excuse for all of those penalties. There’s no self-discipline, that’s evident!!! - Bill C., West Virginia

There are no excuses for a 12-penalty performance and the Browns didn’t offer up any in their post-game assessment. What troubled Pettine the most was there were no signs of a lack of on-field discipline during the preseason, as the Browns were one of the NFL leaders in fewest penalties. Cleaning up this area will certainly be a point of emphasis throughout this week of practice.

If our outside linebackers continue to struggle setting the edge and stopping the run, would the coaches consider shifting any of our inside LBs outside for that purpose? Perhaps Robertson, Kirksey or maybe Carder could do a better job? - Phillip F., Santa Barbara, Calif.

The Browns will need someone to step up at the position if Scott Solomon is out for a significant amount of time with his ankle injury. That could be rookie Nate Orchard, who was inactive last week after dealing with a back injury, and Barkevious Mingo, who played a limited number of snaps against the Jets after missing most of August with a knee injury. We’d be surprised if the Browns looked to the inside linebackers room for help.

Which uniform combinations will the Browns be wearing for each of their 8 regular season home games? - Steve B., Strongsville

That will vary from week to week. Keep in mind the Browns have the option to wear an alternate jersey twice in a given season and unlimited options with pants and socks. The Cleveland Browns’ Instagram and Twitter accounts will be your source for the official announcement each week.

We're not playing the Jets.

yea the Jets D is good.

how was the titans defense against the run though last week? i didn't check it out.

They gave up 74 yards on 23 (non QB) carries. That's 3.21 yards per carry. Tampa Bay also has one of the worst offensive lines in the league.

Dick LeBeau is in charge of that defense so they have to be at least good.

I think LeBeau is more of a consultant, Ray Horton is the defensive coordinator (he is also good).

Another question...

What did Tennessee do to upgrade the defensive personnel from the squad that allowed Brian Hoyer to make a Frank Reich-esque comeback?

Correct. LeBeau is in charge of the defense (Titan's website lists him as Assistant Head Coach/Defense). Horton is the coordinator.

They signed Brian Orakpo. He's pretty good when healthy. Other than that they have a lot of the same guys, Jurrell Casey and Derrick Morgan are both pretty good.

Thank Gawd! At last!

Maybe we can build a team our uniforms can be proud of this year. I'd like wins way, way more than the unis fest some of us seem to favor. Unis are every bit as compelling to me as the SB 50 halftime discussions and choice.

That is by God football that is!

..jc..

I've seen it too many times..the Browns need a yard for a first down and our RBs get stuffed. The Browns have NO ONE capable of moving the pile..the Browns do not have a power back for a short yardage situations.

Manziel on a QB sneak..forget that! If McCown was playing, it might have been a different outcome.

No doubt, part of the problem is the blocking..our Oline is not getting a good push and not coming off the ball ahead of the defense. This is something the coaching staff needs to address. There may be a need to change the snap cadence in short yardage situations, which might help the Line get a jump.

Another possibility is a jumbo package, bringing in extra beef to get a better push. I believe the Browns did bring in Cameron Erving on one play, but there was a penalty or something resulting in no play.

The Browns need to find a good short yardage back..someone who has the strength and power to get a yard.

The Browns RBs...Crowell is the biggest, listed at 225..
..Turbin..222 lb
..Draughn..205 lb
..Duke..210 lb
Our FB, rookie Malcolm Johnson was a TE in college

What ever it takes, the Browns have to find a way to get a yard in a short yardage situation.

When we were mixing it up we ran the ball really well. When they knew we were guaranteed to run it and loaded the box we struggled with their run blitz. Overall, I was impressed with both Duke and Crow and that Td run by Crow was a thing of beauty. He left 3 defenders on the ground.

Crazy how all of a sudden when you have a proven deep threat to worry about, the defenses won't dare you to throw down field by stacking the box to stop the run isn't it?

You mean these things don't happen in a vacuum and are actually related? Crazy indeed....

The Crow is that back mac.

must have missed something. were they double teaming the rabbit?

Pit...Crow is not a power back and I would classify him as average in size.

Big backs are very overrated imo. Give me MJD before the Nigerian Nightmare any day of the week. Why use an ox when you could use a stallion when time is of the essence?

I would love to get one of Cincy's backs, but I realize that won't happen. Hill's fumbling problems I wouldn't want as we already have that with JF.

Average size doesn't determine power. Who do we go to in the red zone? Who has the nose for the end zone? Who has the power to break tackles?

The Crow is the answer to all of those questions.

5'11" and 225 is excellent size. How big are you talking? If you're talking about the likes of Lacy or Bettis, those guys are very rare breeds.

Crow ran very hard yesterday and made quite a few yards after contact.

Agreed.

His TD run he did not have the angle but he nutted up and put 3 defenders on the ground and the ball into the endzon.

Obviously some of us have a difference in opinion concerning the Browns plan (or lack of a plan) for a 3-1 or a 4-1 situation.

More often than some of you realize, a critical point in a football game can come down to a team's ability to make 1 yard...just 1 yard for a first down or a TD. Happens many times every weekend of the NFL season.

The Brown have a pass catching TE as our FB..BAD IDEA.
Against the Titans, Crow tried to get 1 yard and so did Manziel...the Browns short yardage package...there isn't one. Maybe the Browns offensive brain trust believes there is "no need" for short yardage package??

IMHO the Browns short yardage package/situation..needs to be addressed.

In the second quarter, the Brown drive the ball from their 30 down to the Titans 19 yard line...

...3rd/1yd for a first down, the Browns run Crow, NO GAIN..the Browns can't get 1 yd to keep the drive going.

4th/1yd for a first, the Browns run Manziel and lose yardage, blowing a chance to go up 21-0 or kicking a field goal to go up 17-0.

The Cleveland Browns could not get "a yard" when they needed it. I've seen the Browns struggle in short yardage situations in past years, too.

It seems that the center of the Browns Oline did not match up well when Titans went to a short yardage defense. Two tries to get one yard and this OLine did not get it done.

So either the Browns Oline is the problem or maybe it's the people we have running the football in those short yardage situation?...you folks tell me what the Browns' problem is.

I do not classify Crow as a power back..he runs hard but he is not the kind of back that moves a pile a yard against a short yardage defensive front.

Manziel's attempt at the QB sneak was a disaster as he actually was pushed back and lost yardage on his 4th/1 attempt.

Seeing this as a problem that needs to be fixed, I look at the Browns roster and find that our FB is actually a TE, 6-1, 236, Malcolm Johnson..
...that is a problem, especially if the team needs a RB/FB capable of picking up a yard against a short yardage defense.

There are teams in the NFL who put a higher value on "big backs" than the Browns do.
...just a couple of examples...Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots have LeGarrette Blount...6-0..250lbs and James Develin..6-3..251.

Blount became a free agent after the 2013 season and was signed by the Steeler in March 2014. Blount got himself cut by the Steelers in Nov 2014 and was signed again by the Patriots. Blount helped the Patriots win the Super Bowl last season.

The Steelers put a high priority on "big backs"...remember "the bus"?..Jerome Bettis, 5-11, 260.
The Steelers had Blount and LeVon Bell, 6-1,244 at the beginning of 2014. This season, the Steelers have Bell, FB Will Johnson 6-2,240, FB Roosevelt Nix, 5-11, 248.

Green Bay has Eddie Lacy, 5-11, 234 and FBs John Kuhn 6-0, 250, Aaron Ripkows, 6-1, 246.

These are some of the top teams in the NFL, and it appears that all of these teams have an answer for 4th/1 situations, starting with a RB or FB with the size and strength to move the pile for a touchdown or a much needed 1st down.

The Browns have no answer for a 4th and 1 situation...and they need to address it...jmho

I agree with you Mac.

We need a short yardage game plan, and we need a bigger back to be our powerhouse. That "Bus" that can get that TD when you are 3rd and goal form the 1.

Our backs aren't even very good at getting around the edge. If they don't get a hole up front, they seldom get more than 1 yard.

What about that guy Winston? Isn't he a big, huge RB?

i think our backs are fine.

it's the execution that's the problem.

as well, IMO of course, we don't have the line for a brute force, 4 and 1 situation.

We are a finesse blocking team not force .. We should excel in the zone scheme .. Line watchers are telling me that although we where suppose to keep the Shanny blocking scheme , we really haven't .. Now add into the mix that Mack is getting bullied and you have today's Browns OL ! I know I will be accused of beating a dead horse but " Coaching " ..

Thrilled with the win .. But why coach's keep trying to put round pegs in square holes, is beyond me !

He is on the NFI Reserve list.

swish...I agree, this Oline is not an overwhelming Oline that blasts opponents off the line.

With the Browns lack of an overpowering Oline...wouldn't it make sense to add a power running back for those short yardage situation? Seems logical to me.

As I illustrated, teams that "win a lot", win in the playoffs and in Super Bowls, they have power runners and some have both a big back and a bigger FB as a lead blocker, which is another way of adding more beef at the point of attack to help Olines that need some help in the power department.

The Browns do not have a power back who can move the pile. I thought that adding Seahawks backup RB, Robert Turbin might help the Browns overcome their lack of a power back, but while researching Turbin, I found that in addition to his high ankle sprain, he also had "double hip surgery" in the offseason, in May.

The Seahawks may have had reasons for waiving Turbin, beyond his ankle sprain. Also, in 2010, Turbin suffered a torn ACL, requiring surgery and missed the entire 2010 season for Utah St. Turbin does have some mileage on his body..does he have anything left to give?..I hope so.

Turbin was going to be brought back slowly by the Seahawks after his double hip surgery in May 2015. Turbin missed the entire off season workouts but did play in the preseason's first two games, he rushed 11 times for 17 yds, with the number one offense. In the 3rd preseason game, Sep 29, against the Chargers, Turbin suffered a high ankle sprain with possible ligament damage.

The Seahawks did not waste any time working out an injury settlement with Turbin and waived him on Sept 4th .

Now the Browns are waiting for Turbin to get healthy hoping he will help to solve the Browns problem of how to gain 1 yard on 3rd and 4th downs.

As I said above, in my research of Robert Turbin, I found that he had "double hip surgery" this past May. Does anyone know what a "double hip surgery" entails...what is wrong with the hip joint that requires surgery?...anyone know?

Well, if you google "double hip surgery", you get Robert Turbin.

Tried to find out specifics about Turbin's surgery yesterday and found very little.

Just found what I been looking for...




Turbo re-charge: Backup RB Robert Turbin back, “chillin’” after offseason double-hip surgery

Seahawks Insider Blog AUGUST 8, 2015
BY GREGG BELL
Staff writer
link

Robert Turbin, here at Seahawks training camp in a new, No. 32 (he had been 22), is feeling renewed after double-hip surgery at the renowned Steadman Clinic in Vail, Colorado, this offseason. Elaine Thompson AP

Turns out, the hip surgery Robert Turbin was off having this offseason was twice as challenging than previously understood.

The fourth-year backup to Marshawn Lynch as Seattle’s lead running back -- the man quarterback and camp roommate Russell Wilson described today as “an elite running back” -- said following his Saturday as the No. 1 rusher in this training camp’s fullest scrimmage he had double-hip surgery this offseason outside the team’s medical staff at a specialty clinic in Colorado.

Coach Pete Carroll said this spring Turbin was away “up north” recovering from hip surgery and that the rehabilitation was in concert with the team’s medical staff and was going well.

Turbin said his labrums were torn in both hips. He said the hip pain began in his second league year in 2012, then got progressively worse in 2013 and last year.

“I thought, ‘If I’m going to be better, as a football player, I’ve got to find out what’s wrong internally, with my body,” said Turbin, who rushed for 310 yards and caught 16 passes for two touchdowns last season. He started three times when Lynch’s back was tight at the beginning of games, and had his first career 100-yard game Dec. 9 in the romp past Arizona.

Yet he didn’t feel as great as he looked in flashes spelling Lynch, and often in Seattle’s 2-minute offense.

He and his agent sought the advice this offseason of specialists at the renowned Steadman Clinic for orthopedics in Vail, Colorado. That’s where he had his surgery and part of his rehabilitation coach Pete Carroll had previously described as “up north” this spring.

The rest of his rehabilitation was in his native California.

“Yeah, it’s healed up great now,” Turbin said. “It’s really a credit to the people at the Steadman Clinic and the people I worked with in California.”

This, of course, is Turbin’s prime time. Lynch gets few if any carries each preseason. That leave Turbin and third-year back Christine Michael as the showcased runners in Carroll’s run-first offense during exhibition games -- only to fade into spot, fill-in roles in special packages behind Lynch when the games get real.

Turbin knows this better than we do, of course. So what, I asked, is the source of his patience with this annual arrangement -- especially entering what for him is a potential contract year?

“You know, it’s just about staying ready,” he said. “This is a very unpredictable game. You never know what’s going to happen. You have to stay ready so you don’t have to get ready. You do your job to the best of your ability whenever you get the chance, whether that’s one carry or 14 carries.”

He is entering the final year of his four-year, $2.56 million contract as Seattle’s fourth round draft choice out of Utah State; he was a college teammate of Bobby Wagner there.

“I’m not concerned with it, at all,” Turbin said. “Not the least bit. I’m really just relaxed. I’m just chillin’.

“I know what I’ve done since February up to this point to be ready, so there’s no real reason for me to be tight. I’m just chillin’. I’m doing what I’ve been doing since I was 10 years old, playing the game I love. ... All that other stuff, you know, it always fall where it’s supposed to.”

We need our own Marahawn Lymch

So does every other team besides the Seahawks.

Total combined rushing yards against Oakland: 39 yards.

so when do we get Turbin back?

We never get him back, as we have never had him.

I didn't get to watch the game, why did we only have 14 rushing atttempt's? Seems an awfully low number for a team that wants to run the ball even if we did get behind early.

Because we suck at running the ball, but are great at protecting the passer.

ahh yes thanks for correcting me, I meant when do we get him back from injury?

Last I heard was two to three weeks.

He said 3-4 weeks from the time we signed him, so it should be soon .... hopefully.

no he said 4 to 6 weeks. some one on the board just made up the 3 or 4 weeks. anyway pettine says.....

Robert Turbin (ankle) is also progressing, too. He'll be on the horizon, probably not this week, but potentially the next two or three getting him back.

And he said that roughly two weeks before we signed him, hence the one poster doing basic math and coming up with the 3-4 weeks. Based upon that, he should be getting close.... not that it will matter at all.

He should have been ready [according to the math] this coming week.

Did anyone REALLY believe that he would be?

I get why a bunch of the apologists felt a need to bash those of us who questioned the signing of an injured player and releasing a WR instead of another RB, but seriously, did anyone really believe the lies coming out of Berea?

This isn't rocket science. We have trouble in short yardage, a FB that can't lead block, and an extra offensive lineman that's a first round pick.

Send in the beef!

Well.........we are 3 games in. Our running game has sucked.

Last week, we passed it 49 times and ran it 14 times.

Our defense is ranked 30th overall in total defense and 32nd in rushing defense.

Our offense is ranked 27th in total offense and 25th in rushing defense.

These staggering numbers are against the EASY part of our schedule.

Care to apologize? Any of you? Or, will you guys just ignore the facts and then rip me about the next topic, as if my points are totally ignorant and not even worthy of discussion, other than to make fun of?

Pfffttttttttttttt

You know....all this talk about playing like a Brown. We are going to run. We are going to be tough. We are going to minimize the qb position.

And we throw it 49 times and pass it 14 times??????

And the homers still aren't questioning these bozos?

hey ive been all over the board posting rankings and such. they get no love from me.

I am not on your case, bro. I was depressed earlier. Now, I am just mad.

Ready to rumble.

Ut oh.

Never have called for a coaching staff to be fired, I figure they make a bunch of money to do their job, so they're doing their job.

With that being said, this group of folks is pathetic. I knew we were going to lose a ton of games this season, but losing them in this pathetic, unorganized manner, is embarrassing.

I wonder if they could apply for this league instead - http://www.lflus.com/ - it's where they belong. (realized this is a bit absurd, could you imagine Shelton in one of those unis, oh dear god).

Sounds a lot like last year.

I put the wrong word in there. I'm sorry. It's 25th in rushing offense.

We're last in rushing defense.

My apologies.

This is why we are horrible...teams have no issue finding a FB, shoot they sign some off the scrap pile and plug them...with solid-good results...This Franchise hasn't had a good FB since what T-Smoot and Vickers era?? For real...we can't even find, sign, draft a freaking FB...And our front office has too much pride in their scouting to even sign one...Lets draft a guy whom is like the same size of our HB whom wasn't a FB in college and boom...we fixed the problem...not! You can get an elite FB in FA for $2 mill a year....very cheap and problem solved...Problem is our FO outsmarts themselves yearly...puts us at a disadvantage yearly...That's another reason why I don't believe this FO will ever get their QB....because they can't even obtain a FB that isn't a liability...

I remember someone calling for us to sign Jerome Felton the entire off-season. When he signed elsewhere, I remember that same person saying we should draft the giant fullback from Alabama.

At least we got a punter.

Lmao! Right...There was two superb FBs in FA this year (Felton signed with buffalo I believe, and the Giants FB Hyonoski) Fowler the FB from Alabama...I would have drafted him in a heartbeat versus Vince Mayle...Fowler looks pretty good with exception of that play he tried to run backwards on lol

We still put ourselves in a disadvantage when not having the right personal to run basic essential plays

This is where Ballpeen says, "Put Cam Erving at guard."

My response to that would be, "Can't be much worse than Malcolm Johnson." And, "At least we would be playing our first round pick."

Heck put Erving at FB lol can't be any worse as Malcolm Johnson is non existent...

Heck I still remember when the Bucs threw Warren Sapp at FB and he ran right over Courtney Brown and called him soft...And I believe Michael Pittman ran in behind him untouched...

It's disturbing the way this FO has assembled this team, lets be a strong running team...Yet lets tinker with our Oline scheme, start the season with no prominent RB to carry the team...No blocking FB...while we are at it...Lets give this team no threats to keep the D from stacking the box...and lets bring in a career journey backup to fight that D when they stack the box...unbelievable...

I think I'm just sick of seeing piss poor results when we all had hope (well at least temporarily) that this time would be different...I can attest to it, that this time around is no different than what we've had for 16 years...I will take Butch Davis back with open arms over this Lol it's that bad

Yup.

Before the season started I was reading on here about our top 5 elite OL and our elite top 10 defense, and we already are in the bottom part of the heap on both sides of the LOS.

And we just finished our 3-0 stretch that was going to springboard us to the playoffs. Wait until the schedule gets hard ... then we can "Battle like a Brown."

Sadly, I think at MOST we got a punter!!

Sounds a lot like most years.

What's more interesting is we have a fullback that can't lead block, but we still dial in alot of plays with him in the formation lmfao.

Brilliant Flip!

This franchise and direction are no different than the one(s) from the past eras...Look at all the holds still needed for next year: #1 WR, #1 TE, #1 QB, #FB #1RB (maybe) An edge rusher OLB, another starting MLB (Dansby will probably retire)
Not even going to get into coaching/coordinators...We aren't advancing to any playoffs anytime soon.

Browns Mailbag: When will the running backs start catching more passes?

Andrew Gribble

Link

Why aren't the Browns running screens anymore? With what they have at WR (size-wise) it seems to me that screens would be a big part of their game. Scott R., Columbus

Through three games, Cleveland’s running backs and fullback have combined for 10 catches and 59 yards. Six of those receptions happened Sunday against the Raiders, and they all came from rookie running back Duke Johnson Jr. The problem, though, was one of Johnson’s receptions went for 18 yards and the other five combined for 14. The Browns did not complete a pass to a running back or fullback against the Titans.

Offensive coordinator John DeFilippo has said he wants to get the running backs more involved in the passing game, and Sunday’s game was a step in that direction. Now, it’s about getting them in the position to make significant gains after the catch.

Any news on the status of Dwayne Bowe's hamstring? I think it would be great if he's 100% and can go this week since with all his years in KC, he played a ton against San Diego and that would seem to be a large plus. - Charlie C., Sheridan, Wyoming

Bowe wasn’t listed on the injury report last week, so it can be assumed he’s completely healed from a physical standpoint. What’s been holding Bowe back, though, is all of the time he missed during an integral portion of training camp because of the injury.

Browns coach Mike Pettine said Monday the injuries on defense forced the team to bring up more bodies on that side of the ball and make all three of their healthy inactives offensive players. Bowe, of course, was among them and was inactive for the second time this season. In Cleveland’s home opener against Tennessee, Bowe played eight snaps and was targeted once.

“Dwayne will help us, but he’s just not there yet,” Pettine said. “The setback that he suffered during training camp, it’s just hard to make those reps up, especially now that we’re in a practice week. We’re hopeful that we’ll get him out there and he’ll contribute as we expect him to.”

For what it’s worth, there’s no team Bowe has been better against than the Chargers. In 14 games against them, Bowe has 65 catches, 843 yards and six touchdowns.

Great. So 60 yards and 1/2 a touchdown per game is the best he's been against a team.

Surely if you can develop your 1st round QB by having him hold a clipboard and taking those "mental reps" that you keep talking about, instead of actual physical reps then a 10 year vet receiver should be a mental rep mastermind by now lol.


Bowe is a lazy has been and this regime ishurting the team by defending this guy.

or so you'd think.

I'm guessing that this is the explanation that is suitable for public consumption after the way he gator-armed the one target he got. If he isn't going to put forth the effort, he's expendable.


Question: If a player is on the roster, but is inactive for a game... does that game count toward their accrued seasons total? I know that it still counts toward contract years and all, but I'm wondering if a player has 7 years in the league and is on a roster for their 8th, but is inactive for every game... will they still then have 8 accrued seasons?

If they do not accrue the season, then their number of years does not increase, thus neither does their minimum salary.... just an odd thought that popped into my head.

With non-McCowns throwing him the ball. I guess McCowns don't throw him the ball now either, but those circumstances are different.

Dwayne Bowe has never really been good. He has one great season (buoyed by an unsustainable TD total) and has lived off the reputation of that season.

Another reason why Farmer needs to go. Can't draft. Signed this boat anchor. Nice job Ray. See ya.

Browns RB Robert Turbin returns to practice

Link

Former Seahawk hopeful he can play soon

On Thursday, running back Robert Turbin (ankle) practiced for the first time as a Cleveland Brown.

The team kept his repetitions limited, but Turbin was off the exercise bike and in his cleats, running full speed and catching passes with shoulder pads and a helmet on.

“I’m getting there,” Turbin said. “I’m getting real close.”

Running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery has been spending extra time with Turbin to make sure he’s mastering the offense. Because he hasn’t been able to participate on the field, Turbin said he’s made it a point of talking more with his new teammates in the locker room and cafeteria to build camaraderie. And on Sundays from the sidelines, he’s already envisioning himself in Cleveland’s offense.

“You want to approach the game from a mental standpoint, use your imagination a little bit, use some imagery and see yourself out there,” Turbin said. “Getting handoffs, making decisions and making cuts as if it were you on the field.”

The Browns claimed Turbin on Sept. 10 when he reached an injury settlement with the Seahawks after spraining his ankle in the preseason. Last year in Seattle, Turbin backed up Marshawn Lynch and rushed for 310 yards while averaging 4.2 yards per carry. Turbin also caught 43 passes for 427 yards and two touchdowns in three seasons with the Seahawks.

Turbin’s goal is to return next week against the Ravens, and, if not, the following week at FirstEnergy Stadium against the Denver Broncos.

Cleveland currently ranks 25th in the NFL in rushing, averaging 86.3 yards per game.

A stout 5-foot-10, 222 pounds, Turbin is a powerful runner but describes himself as a balanced back.

“I feel like I can do a little bit of everything,” Turbin said. “There’s not one skill that I have – it’s more a variety of all of them.”

Meanwhile, Chris Johnson is lighting it up in Arizona. But, we have a guy who is "getting there." Freaking Browns!

A running back returning to a line that can't run block and a defense that gives up tons of points and makes the offense become a pass happy team.

Doesn't sound like anything that'll help us.

He was dirt cheap, too, but mostly because the entire league was wary of him.

He's old now and didn't produce well recently - and then was dealing with a gunshot to the shoulder in the offseason. That's why he was unsigned until mid-August and still only got a one year deal.

If that doesn't say it all, I don't know what does.

Put Shelton in at FB. Follow your block. He has to get push!

Does any of that diminish his performance thus far compared to Turbin's?

j/c

For those who saw Pitts vs Baltimore last night, how did either of those offenses prove superior to the Browns? After all both have elite receivers and running backs. Yet, it was absolutely painful watching.

Defense! Forsett and Bell both ran over 150 yards.

I guess Pittsburgh had an excuse not having Big Ben. Baltimore gave up a life line wining. Pittsburgh stole Browns playbook!

Yeah, I guess you can say that not having one of the best QBs in the league available could be a hindrance.

Big Ben won't last the season behind that OL. Pittsburgh, which ain't hurting my feelings, looks the worst I have seen in 30 years. If Big Ben is the only thing holding things together, there is some tough road for the B & G.

People of this board debated hard what is needed OL or play makers. Pittsburgh survived having play makers and a defense. Well, defense is gone. OL is typical. Offensive play makers is all they have left. How long can Big Ben produce at a level carrying his team?

If Cleveland stays the course, it will be interesting seeing who turns things around. Obviously, Pittsburgh has the advantage having a stronger front office.

Nope. Just pointing out that like other players that folks on here go gaga over and say "we shoulda got that guy!" about, there were 30 other teams that passed on him and for sensible reasons. It was a risky move for them to pick him up that has paid off; we've made our own risky move with Turbin and we're waiting to see if it'll pay off. Two moves - both still in play.

and both teams supposedly have "elite" QB's...

Pittsburgh pass blocking has been pretty good through four weeks. They have only 17 QB hits and they've passed the ball way more than anyone (they've also played one more game).

Running the ball isn't working so well for us, so I for one am glad we are changing things up and not sticking to the run.

'When it's time to change, you got to rearrange, what you are and what you're gonna be.' -The Silver Platters

Man if we could consistently attack deep, defenses be forced to get that safety outta the box.

I was watching the Giants game yday when I saw two deep safeties and I thought... I'm not sure our offense gets to see that look too often.