DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Run the ball

Thank You! I thought I was lone wolf on the Dray Barnidge debate! They certainly ain't Graham, but they both aren't much different than Heath Miller.

Other than proving your are miserable and thin-skinned, what is it you are trying to prove here?

Here is pblack's first post and your response to it. Read carefully and then laugh at yourself.



You posted the very same thing just now that pblack posted the first time.

So what is it you are trying to prove again?

yea. guess he didnt read it. only put it up because it said what the players were saying. baffled why he is getting so mad about it.

He's sensitive and angry????

You're not "ganging up" on someone, are you?

Watch it you two or its detention for you both and I am gonna call your parents.

*GENERAL REPLY*

Man, this non-sensical BS gets old. There's more crap laying around these boards than an actual dog kennel. I know its the internet but in real life I feel like I have to hose my shoes off after visiting these boards. No matter what the thread, rest assured anywhere from 40-80% of it will end up being post after post between the same handful of people making up assertions about what other people said, even though they never did, then have the audacity to get in to a pissing match about it and act indignant when things get 'personal'. I expect a degree of that in the Everything Else forums, but not in the Football forums. This is the same BS that trashed the official team message boards. I hope none of you guys are actually wondering why they never re-opened a Browns message board? I can't say as I blame them. If you're not sure, feel free to PM and I'll tell you, but be warned you'll likely get your feelings hurt.

Now the obvious reply is 'Well then DevilDawg, if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to come here'. You're right, no one is. And I'm not suggesting that the refs get involved in reviewing every single post. That would be stupid and I'm sure they've got better things to do with their lives. One would think people would be grown up enough to self regulate. It just really sucks that when I log in, I see the number of people reading through the different threads and forums, but only a small number of them ever actually post. I'm sure some don't care to, but I'd be willing to bet that many don't because they don't have any energy left after sifting through the endless garbage posts where people are using a virtual world to self inflate their egos and validate a sense of self worth.


Me, I don't have enough self esteem or self worth to think that anything I put on the internet will ever add to my value as a human being or that my genius will ever send shockwaves throughout the universe.


As to football, ALL we need for this offense to be successful are 2 things: For Flip to show at a minimum he s competent. He doesn't have to be a genius this year or show that he's next season's top new HC candidate.

Second, we don't need McCown to be or perform like a Pro Bowl QB. If we've seen anything the last 2 seasons, its that as long as we have a QB who can play competently, we can win games. He doesn't have to play perfect, he doesn't have to be someone you want on your fantasy football team. People get so wrapped up in the QB situation that they blind themselves to just how good of a team we actually have. Even if you are someone who thinks I'm being overly generous in my assessment, I think it would be difficult to deny that at a minimum we have quite possibly THE strongest foundation for a successful team than we have at any other time over the last 15 years.

+1
And they don't actually have to be Graham not to suck. Personally, I think the TE's we have are EXACTLY what we need for what we are trying to build. As long as they can block, and make the occasional clutch catch (which they've shown they can do) I'm not going to say our TE's suck because they don't happen to be one of maybe 5 in the entire league considered to be deep downfield threats.

McCown's play action will determine how awful the record will be. Johnny Rehab or ol' Thaddy Lew, after a McCown injury, will be Ray-Ray's walking papers.

Liquor'ed and coke'd up 36 hours beforehand as well as no memorization of secondary, let alone tertiary options, over the several months prior...

Your perceptions do not equate to reality.

I think a lot of you get really upset when someone points out the weaknesses of the team and it alters your perception of what really is transpiring.

You can deny the importance of the QB. You can deny that McCown has been a terrible qb for just about his entire career. You can say we have a talented and good team. But none of those things are actually a reality.

Now, you can get upset w/my opinion and start more nonsense such as me trying to inflate my ego and validating my sense of worthy because I disagreed w/your analysis, but in reality, it don't mean a thang.

A Good Running Game Makes For A More Productive Passing Game!!!

yea. i saw that with chud.

Unless they agree with you.

In 2014...

Andrew Hawkins had 63 receptions for 824 yards. (13.1 YPC Avg).
Taylor Gabriel had 36 receptions for 621 yards. (17.3 YPC Avg).
Brian Hartline had 39 receptions for 474 yards. (12.2 YPC Avg).
Dwayne Bowe had 60 receptions for 754 yards. (12.6 YPC Avg).

*Prior to 2014 Brian Hartline had back to back 1,000+ yard seasons*

While we might not have a clear cut #1 receiver, I certainly think this group is capable of being productive and above average.

Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell combined for 1,280 yards and 12 TD's both while splitting carries with each other and with Ben Tate.

I wouldn't really classify them as below average. They both flashed some real talent last year.

I completely agree about the QB & TE positions, but I disagree about our WR's and RB's being weaknesses.

I don't think our RBs are a weakness, but we were 17th overall in rushing and again, only two teams had a worse average in yds per carry. Thus, that is why I said we are below average.

Our WRs? Hartline was cut by Miami. Bowe was released by KC. I posted the article about how we were in the bottom 5 in the league.

The upcoming year is a new year and perhaps things will change, but as of right now, I think this offense has some real issues.

well put and dead on

maybe this will cheer you two up.

j/c

Clearly there is a difference between being bad and being unproven. Collectively this particular iteration of the Browns are unproven. A big unknown is scheme fit. How will these particular players, some who are veterans and appear to be on the back side of their careers, fit what the Brown's are asking them to do? To talk in absolutes at this point, in June, before pads ever go on is conjecture. How will the addition, or subtraction of one guy affect other players on his unit? Will that affect be positive or negative? Does the scheme fit these players skill set?

They may ultimately fall flat. They may surprise, just as last years team did. There was a lot of talk about how abysmal the wide receiving corp would be at this time last year. Especially with Gordon being out for 10 games. Then it unfolded, the receivers made plays and the receivers as a whole regressed when Gordon got back on the field. That doesn't go 100 % on Gordon either; there were other variables at work.

My point is that when your dealing in an arena of human potential you often won't know until your in the moment when performance matters.

The organization is in year two of a their plan. Year one was a decent start. Certainly better than we've seen in terms of wins and losses for a long time. That at least makes me hopeful that they can build on it.

this is really good. this would make a great football topic. alot of people on the board are bringing this up but its disjointed, across differnt topics but talking about what you just said.

well. jmo anyway.

I'm up for that discussion. To me it will be easier to talk about the defense rather than the offense in these terms. Any way it goes, my personal bent is toward the positive aspects but that's just how I roll. Any point of view should get a fair opportunity for expression.

Probably lost the game, and your sig doesn't exactly inspire positivity. lol

I think most people are in agreement that the defense has a lot of good parts in place.

DL: I believe that adding Shelton was a good move. You need depth on the DL and we have several guys who can play in the rotations.

OLB: Kruger is pretty good. Mingo needs to be healthy. Not a fan of Cooper.

ILBer: Dansby is pretty good. The rotation of Kirskey and Robertson is all right.

CB: I think losing Skrine will hurt. Joe is very good. I like K. Williams. I don't like Desir. T. Williams was a decent corner but he is getting up there. Why was he available? Anyone know? Gilbert is the key to this group.

SS/FS: This is a real strength. Gilbert is approaching elite status and Whit is solid on the field and a great locker room guy.

I think we have to improve in two areas:

--Stopping the run. Pettine's defenses the last few years at least have really struggled against the run. I think part of that is scheme. He puts a lot of emphasis on stopping the pass and he also has his edge guys crash down a lot. This leaves the perimeter undermanned. He did make some late season adjustments, but it hurt us in other areas. We must improve here.

--Rushing the passer. Too many times last year, especially during our losing streak, we saw where we would stop teams on first and second down and then give the QB all freaking day to hit a guy for a first down. You don't have to have big sack totals, but you can't let the qb sit in a clean pocket and go through his reads.


Offensively, I will stand by what I have said throughout. I don't think McCown is going to magically turn it around after decades of incompetence. I think the OL is one of the better units in the league. I think our WRs are amongst the very worst in the NFL. I believe the RBs have potential but really haven't established themselves as being average or above average. I think this is one of the units that really fits where you were talking about earlier in regards to not knowing what to expect. I think our TEs can block okay and can make catch some short passes. I think not having a guy to stretch the defense at that position hurts us.

I think the schedule is much tougher this year. I believe it will be hard to improve the win total from last year's team.

Oh, and I am not a negative guy. I try to be realistic. For instance, I think Ohio State has a great shot of repeating as National Champions this year. They have the most talented team in the country, but one slip at the wrong time can doom an entire season. However, I know they are going to have a great, great season. They will either go undefeated, have one loss, or two at the most. I believe the Cavs--if they keep Love and Thompson--and stay relatively healthy---will win the NBA Championship next year. I don't follow baseball anymore.

So, of my three big teams.........I feel that the Cavs have a great chance to win it all, Ohio State is the favorite for winning it all, and the Browns will have a losing record.

That isn't being negative. It's being realistic.

Very fair assessment. But I do believe you meant Gibson below, instead of Gilbert ...

After this many years of utter futility, the Browns need to show me on the field. Paper doesn't matter. Who knows? Haden could start the season slow again, Gilbert still might not be ready for prime time, and Williams could really show his age. Now all of a sudden what we thought was a strength of the team is a weakness. This is just as likely a scenario as the Browns having a great secondary.

Apply this to any position group that has not shown a consistent pattern of high caliber play for years. It's just as likely they will be bad as good. It's literally 50/50. The only position group we should expect greatness from is the OL.

We have to stop romanticizing Skrine though. Players at his level change teams all the time. He was good, not great. His presence or absence doesn't make or break this secondary.

But if you are a student of NFL trends, you know there is only one position that really matters. Without that one, you're are looking at a double digit loss season.

That's not being negative, that's just understanding what you're watching.

And I believe you mean Gipson, instead of Gibson.

Good post Vers. I agree with the majority. I however believe our receivers are really being underrated but again, McCown is the QB. hartline and gabriel I expect a lot.

Who starts opposite Kruger may be the best camp battle we have. Mingo is likely to play a lot in coverage but can his shoulder handle banging as a rusher. Does Armonty have the same burst after the ACL? Is Solomon a flash in the pan roster cut? Is Nate as good as his stats? Most intriguing stroyline for me heading into camp.

Then we have Gilbert vs Williams? This is a big test for Farmer's ablity to judge talent imho with letting Buster walk. Its a huge test but K1 may already be the best slot corner in football and Gipson is a top 5 free safety. Haden top 3 or 4 corner. A lot of pressure to get that one right cause it only takes one guy to get open to make the secondary look like crap.

DL the loss of Rubin physically doesnt hurt us but his hustle set a standard for this defense. I mean Phil Taylor was injured on a play 30 yards from the LOS. Hustle is contagious. The concept of line units I like.

TE as I said in the other thread I like our toughguys and Bibbs gives me hope for a receiver at TE. wait and see but I saw some clips of camp and Dray and Barnidge were being shuffled outside, umm ok lol. the blocking they give us however is top notch.

RB I think west is our real feature type back and Duke is a home run hitter with a dynamic skill set but Crowe has a redzone bloodlust. None of these guys are gonna be happy with their amount of reps but using more two back sets can help to keep them mentally involved.

Again, I like this team but QB is the pink elephant in the room. I am not really worried about the schedule as much as most. I think we matchup really well with the majority of our opponents this year. The only 2 that I really dont like our chances are @KC and @ seattle.

And who is the OLB named Cooper?

Cooper our rookie DE that will be in there on pass downs. good pass rusher but may be the worst run defender I have ever seen for a guy his size lol.

LOVE IT! Was that Desmond Bryant and who else? DQ? Looks like #52 but can't make it out.

Destroyed!

not sure but i think Craig Robertson. it was from this year. i remember the play.

Yes. Yes I did.

This is like watching a tennis match...lol

LOL.........I'm not even sure who I meant.

Run the ball??????

They sure aren't going to be passing it.

About the defense, over all I anticipate incremental improvement. I think Randy Starks will be a solid veteran contributor. The small media attention that he's gotten reports that he has above average practice habits. He's also reported to be helping the younger guys with technique. I sum that up as being a professional with leadership ability. The circumstances that led to him signing here are instructive. Starks was still playing well in Miami when they signed Suh. That signing changed Starks roster status as far as the Dolphins were concerned. It wasn't his play that led to his exit. I mention this because the mere fact that he was released or not re-signed alone doesn't indicate that he can't play anymore. So I combine that understanding with the experience the team has had with Dansby, Whitner, Krugger and others to inform my confidence in Tramon Williams at corner. I don't pretend to know all of the circumstances involved in his departure from Green Bay but nothing I've come across says the game has passed him by. I like Skrine but Williams's eight years of experience in the league make me comfortable with Skine on the Jets and Williams in the Browns secondary. If Gilbert does beat him out that's great. At the same time the team could not rely solely on Gilbert's development. That would be an unacceptable and inexcusable risk.

I do wonder how Shelton will hold up at the point of attack? Some analyst question his ability to anchor. Seems like if he lines up as a shade nose tackle and attacks a single gap this plays to his strength. That's been my biggest concern about him. It's probably an overblown concern because he has flashed the ability to two gap. I don't doubt his effort and I think he'll get third down reps for his potential to push the center of an offensive line into the backfield and create opportunities for the outside pass rushers. Tying the back end of the defense to the front; I envision the coverage to cause QBs to hold the ball a beat or two longer. That should also help produce more sacks.

There has been a lot said about stopping the run. The return of injured players and the adjustment in alignment that O'Neil talks about will be expected to improve the run defense. Shelton and Hughes and Starks will need to be a real contributors for any meaningful improvement in run stopping.

On to the offense. Three things have been settled. We have an above average starting unit. Erving and possibly Bowie improve the depth. The zone blocking scheme has not been abandoned.

I'm not blind to McCown's career achievements and I don't believe the organization is either. The coaching staff is aware of his limitations and I expect them to identify where he can be successful in the passing game and then accentuate it. That means a heavy reliance on the running game and a high percentage short passing game that gets the ball out of McCown's hands quickly and relies on the skill players to make plays. Formations, personnel, and motion will be counted on the create mismatches and space for the skill guys to operate. I won't even try to talk about the offense in concrete terms. What I hear is that guys will shift or line up in unconventional positions. Not so much as gimmicks but to stress defenses in ways they are not accustom to. For all of this to work West and Crowell will have to be receiving targets. Their ability as pass catchers will likely influence how much playing time they'll get. Johnson will undoubtedly get his touches too. My own personal logic says putting Johnson in a two back formation, maybe as a slot back will threaten defenses in a way we have not been able to do before. In recent comments by Dansby he says the offense tries to "out leverage" the defense. I speculate that this means they are showing a formation that suggests their going to a certain player or attacking a certain positon on the defense. It sounds like the offense either wants to create numbers advantages or get defenses committed to certain reads and counter off of them or both. This is pure speculation on my part. The fragments of information we're getting at this time make this my educated guess.

Play action should continue to be big part of the passing attack. I do wonder how much 5 and 7 step drop back passing will be in the offense? Dray and Barnage will probably contribute in the same way they did last year. They won't be featured in the passing game. Housler? What he does or doesn't do will determine if the TE is a big part of the offense. For me to weigh in on that would be SWAG I'm not ready for.