DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Run the ball

You obviously put a lot of thought into your post. We agree on most things actually.

On Starks, we totally agree. I don't believe you tried to oversell him or diminish him. I believe by all accounts he can and will be a veteran contributor. I believe you accurately described how the signing of Suh was a far larger reasoning for his release than a lack of his play.

Now with Williams I do not believe that same comparison exists. I don't recall G. Bay signing a high quality CB that pushed Williams off the roster. I don't recall G. Bays secondary being dominant to the point they can simply let go of a high quality CB. Williams gave up 10 TD passes and opposing QB's averaged rating around 105 against him. I do realize that Skrine wasn't a shut down CB, but I have what I believe are legitimate concerns about Williams being a downgrade.

Starks I have a lot more confidence about than some. I believe if his combine numbers would have been better, we would not have sniffed the opportunity to draft him. While I'm certainly not qualified to run an NFL draft, all too often I've seen teams put far too much emphasis in combine numbers and pro days than the actual film of players on game day. Those numbers and guys running around in shorts should never trump how a player performs on the field, in uniform, in crunch time. So for those reasons, I expect Shelton to be a beast.

I won't even attempt to guess what we will do on the O side of the ball. Your guess is as good as any. We have an OC who has never held that job at the pro level, ever. What he will execute on the field is an unknown to everyone. There is one thing I can say about the O and I believe it's a very basic concept for anyone willing to be objective.

When your coaching staff says they will, "minimize the QB position", it's nothing more than a polite way of saying, "We don't have a QB'.

And on that, I agree with them as well.

You know what, I was going to respond via PM to this, but considering THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, I'll do it public. If I get booted for a week, so be it.

First, that post was aimed at more than one person and as a "if the shoe fits" comment. Any person with a basic American public education would have been able to understand that. Only if your ego is so large it would preclude you from having comprehended that. That post, aside from the last paragraph, had zilch to do with disagreeing with your assessment. It was about how you and others consistently turn these boards in to crapfests. You claim to be a teacher, but how you miss out on such basic reading comprehension, frankly is something I can't comprehend.

I challenge you to find a single post I've ever written stating that I disagreed with the assessment that McCown has been terrible his entire career. Seriously, put your money where your internet mouth is. In fact, I've actually written very little about him, and the only thing I've mentioned is the level of play we need from him in order to see some offensive success.

And this is the biggest problem that you and certain others have, which starts all this BS: you make blanket assertions and put blanket conclusions in other people's mouth when you don't agree with their point of view. You pissed, whined, and moaned about how Farmer screwed up drafting Manziel and Gilbert, and when anyone tried to talk about how well he did after the 1st Rd and w/ the UDFA's... YOU tell them that they are saying that Farmer can do no wrong, even though they never said it, hinted at it, or came close to saying such a thing. The funny thing is, it's those blanket assertions that you and the usual contenders for the Pissing Match Championship Belt do to each other!

C'mon man, we all know things aren't perfect in Berea, but actually find your dignity. So many times another poster puts out a link to a clevelandbrowns.com article, obviously a puff piece, and the poster usually throws in something to the effect of "take this with a grain of salt", but you still lambaste them as if they were posting some kind of journalistic slop. You try to take them to task because they didn't post an article saying how dysfunctional the FO or team is. Hello! McFly! Its a freakin TEAM 'report'! Those guys aren't so much actual journalists but more marketing assistants! Of course they aren't going to go on at length (or at all) speculating about Farmer's ability to assess a college QB.

Hey, it's squarely up to you and the other Usual Suspects to step back and actually realize what you guys are doing to the quality of these boards. There's an awful lot of fans who don't end up posting because they don't need to get crapped on by people like you and they certainly don't need your damn approval as you seem to think is the standard. Reading posts like yours and others is like that scene in Tombstone where Billy Bob Thornton's loud mouth character was dealing the farrow tables and the barkeep tells Earp he's chasing away the decent patrons.

For anyone who lives a few hundred miles outside of Cleveland, we all know how lonely being a Browns fan can be. These boards give us the chance to talk Browns news with other Dawgs that we don't get to do around the water cooler at the office. I don't judge other posters' fandom based upon whether or not they agree with my POV. I judge them based upon how they treat other fans. And frankly, people like you and the other Pissing Match Champs are an embarrassment to anyone who calls themselves a Dawg.

Go ahead, report me. I'll see everyone else in a week or so!

And to the other Dawgs this and the previous post doesn't apply to, my apologies for taking up valuable internet space. I'll try to throw out a little more football stuff

I don't report people. You said what you felt you had to say. Big deal.

j/c

"Browns can't win until they get a franchise QB." Based on historical facts it is hard arguing against. Farmer/Pettine are attempting to create an offense/team going against the odds. But, it almost a must figuring out a way around.

If we look at the last several drafts, we've seen maybe four QBs worthy. There are roughly a third to half of the NFL teams attempting to get a QB. The deck is stacked against teams. Having an Owner, GM, and HC/coaching staff who are committed to resolving a work-around is key. Haslam is known for his quick trigger. Hopefully, he is past it and realizes the task at hand.

I truly believe the run game isn't dead. It is simply difficult and time consuming to build. One thing going for teams attempting is competition is small. Look at St. Louis and Cleveland drafting top rank run style OL and RBs well into the third and fourth round. In two drafts, both the Rams and Browns have drafted top backs. In my opinion, Cleveland did better getting two solid lineman.

The biggest mystery does the Browns have enough to compete. If their hunch is correct, they could well have tapped into an area others have not gone. How long will it take other teams to adjust scouting and coaching? Since the league is so focused on the pass little attention is applied to run. If you think this is all wishful thinking, look how Bill Belichick won in the playoffs and Pete Carol the year before.

If you still think QB is the route to success, 2014 and 2016 will most likely be the best opportunity to get a QB. What are the odds all of 2014 is successful? What are the odds the first four make the grade of franchise QB? Realistically we are looking at one maybe none. If teams cannot figure out a way to be competitive, the league will become very top heavy with only a third having any success.

Hi! Thanks for inviting me to post. I am one of those board members who read, literally, thousands of posts each year, but haven't posted anything since...hmm...when Kellen Winslow was still on the team. Why don't I post? One--I do not live in Cleveland and never attend Browns games. Two--I am a casual fan and will watch the Browns if they are on TV in this area (which they rarely are). Three--I never played football and have limited football knowledge. Nonetheless, I have followed the Browns since the 1960's, am happy when they do well and not as happy when they don't. I read the postings watching the Dawgtalkers board for news/insights on the team and players that aren't available through mainstream media.

I am not concerned about criticism re: anything I would post nor do I care to criticize others about what they post. I bet there are a lot of others like me who are content to sit back and read what others post.

But thanks, again for making me feel welcome to post.

Since this is a football thread I will give my thoughts about the QB situation.

Last season I was glad Hoyer was named the starter. He had performed well in a fill-in role the previous season, but more importantly displayed confidence, decisiveness, and the ability to get the football to his receivers more quickly than his predecessors.

We all know he played well early in the season and did not play well later in the season. I don't know why nor will I venture an opinion why.

I must say I was surprised the Browns management were not eager to keep Hoyer on the team after the 2014 season ended. No one else available seemed better qualified or prepared to take over the reins.

Perhaps the GM and coaches were concerned Hoyer saw Manziel as more of a potential threat than a teammate he was willing to mentor. Maybe they lost confidence in Hoyer after his poor performance in several consecutive games. In short, they probably decided he was neither the long term solution nor the person who was going to help Manziel progress in his development.

I agree McNown is not the long term solution, either, but probably was the best option at the best price. Is there potential for good performance? Sure, but history shows rather limited success for McNown and not for a full season--I can hope for a career year from him, knowing he is surrounded by a talented OL, but I do not expect him to have a career year.

Thus when the coaching staff said they were going to minimize the QB position, I read it as an admission the Browns were not as skilled at QB as teams who use the passing as their primary offensive weapon.

This means the Browns will have to rely on longer drives (more plays to score) and less frequent mistakes if they expect to be competitive. Seems to be putting themselves at a disadvantage from the start, and once again, they will be reliant on their defense that seems (on paper) to be stronger in 2015, but could be on the field more than I hope for.

That post should hold me for another five years or so!

[color:#FFFFCC]ANYONE, holding back, not wanting to post because you don't want to be criticized by others, it's time to step out and voice your opinions.

I'm with you, I'm not so down on this idea of having a heavy emphasis on running the ball. I think it is a very practical approach and it benefits us long term in two major ways:

1) Even if we had a franchise caliber QB, we'd still need a running game right? Being in Cleveland its always been a must have for the late season cold weather months. So there is no reason as to why we shouldn't be focusing on it now.

2) Isn't everything in the NFL cyclical? It might require a bit more luck, but maybe we're on the leading edge of the strong running attack cycle?

When the Pet Farm says they are trying to reduce the importance of the QB position, I don't take that to mean that they undervalue the position. They could never have risen so high in their careers if they believed it wasn't an important position. I find this a practical approach on so many levels because let's be real, when we do get the franchise QB, it most likely won't be an established veteran. It's more than likely going to be someone we draft. So running on the assumption that it will be a rookie, why wouldn't we have an offense in place that reduces the need for him to have to carry the team before he's ready?

Historically speaking, we haven't treated our QB's very well. We've always expected the world from them and they've ultimately failed because we needed to much from them before they were able, or because they didn't have the proper supporting cast (be it players or in some cases coaches).

I think the Pet Farm would LOVE to have the QB situation solved. I can't imagine a question mark at any other position would prove to be such a headache. Overall I'm pretty encouraged with how they are putting this team together. I really like what most of our roster showed us last season, we finished 7-9 (higher than most predicted) but were also a handful of plays away from being 10-6 and on the playoff bubble. People cite playing 4 weak NFC South teams, but a) so did the rest of our division and b) we still played 6 games against arguably the toughest division in football! And then I look and so far it appears we are keeping roster turnover to a minimum...

I really do think that if Mccown can provide us with just average, solid, consistent play, I don't believe its unreasonable to predict a 7-9 to 9-7 season. Obviously not enough for playoffs, but it would be proof that we finally have built a foundation.

That was a very good post and I think you made some great inferences about what is going on w/the QB position.

OK Mac I will try to get over my shyness

Really that's your problem GM you are too shy and reserved.. you need to work on coming out of your shell.

On the Browns run game.

Less than a year ago, Only 10 months ago, Ben Tate was the Browns starting running back. IIRC. So just to look at the big picture; because today, Ben Tate seems as ancient history as Josh Cribbs or Jamel White.

And When was the last time the Browns had an offense with a fourth year starting quarterback. I'm talking 4 years with the Browns.

Because if it wasn't Couch, it was Testaverde, or Kosar; nobody more recent than that.

and

When was the last time a team from our division, (pick any) did not have a 4th year starting quarterback, I'm talking about 4 years with that said team. ?

Because if it wasn't the current one on each team, it was the current and his predecessor on all of them except maybe the Ravens predecessor, and Dalton and Flacco growing into it.

NO wonder the Browns finish last In the AFC North standings regularly.

Not the Run game? It's all a part of the other part, the run game is part of the kickoff coverage, the pass defense is part of the punt returns, it's all part of the team. Every group has a win or a loss at 4:40 eastern time.

(Tannehil was good enough for the Dolphins, but the Browns don't know how to develop someone, scratch that! don't seem to want to develop someone. Where would Weeden be if still here, where would McCoy be if still here, and why can't We find our Kyle Orton?.. Don't sleep on Senecca Wallace.
When is Manziel going to get his stuff together. )

Halelujah! ... where's the Tylenol.

Both lol

I liked your post. It was very well thought out and well presented. Thanks for your input!

MailBag Question of Week, Part I: Would top-5 running game propel Browns?

Jim Kahler @SportsAdJK
#BrownsMail If the Browns can establish their running game and finish in the top 5 in the NFL in this category .What will their record be ?
7:02 PM - 1 Jul 2015

Interesting question. Very interesting question.

You sent me to the stats from the last couple of seasons. First, I'm not optimistic about the 2015 Browns, nor do I believe a team that relies on running the ball can win consistently in the league. I'm with Joe Thomas, who believes that at some point you have to throw the ball to win, and that the teams with the top quarterbacks are consistently the best teams.

Let's check the stats though. The top 10 rushing offenses in the league last season were Seattle*, Dallas*, the Jets, San Francisco, Houston, Cincinnati*, Carolina*, Baltimore*, Philadelphia and Kansas City. Five of the top 10 (the teams with asterisks) made the playoffs, and just two of the top five. Of the five that made the playoffs, four had something else exceptional to bolster the running game. Seattle had that defense, Dallas had an excellent passing game featuring Tony Romo, Jason Witten and Dez Bryant. Cincinnati had A.J. Green and a very good defense. Carolina had the benefit of playing in a division where every team finished below .500. Only Baltimore did not have something else exceptional, though Joe Flacco supporters would disagree with me.

New England won the Super Bowl. The Patriots ranked 18th in rushing.

In 2013, six of the top-10 rushing teams made the playoffs. Those are just two-year samples, though, and hardly worthy of proper analytics. So I went to ESPN's Stats & Info group and asked about the last 10 years. They reported the following for the last 10 seasons ...

52 percent of the teams to finish in the top 10 in rushing made the playoffs

58 percent of the teams to finish in the top 5 made the playoffs

7 of the 10 teams to lead the league in rushing made the playoffs.

In addition, for the heck of it I checked the last 10 Super Bowl teams to see where they ranked in rushing. Going back the last 10 years, teams that made the Super Bowl ranked here in rushing:

18 and 1

4 and 15

11 and 4

32 and 20

24 and 11

6 and 32

23 and 32

4 and 13

18 and 15

5 and 3

Only once in the last 10 years have two top-5 rushing teams faced each other in the Super Bowl -- and that was when Pittsburgh beat Seattle in 2006. Only six of the last 20 Super Bowl teams have ranked in the top 5 in rushing (30 percent), and seven of 20 (35 percent). Teams ranked 23rd or lower in rushing have won the Super Bowl as often as teams ranked in the top 5, and teams ranked in the bottom half of the league in rushing have won just as many Super Bowls as teams in the top half. The lowest-ranked team in the league in rushing won the Super Bowl in 2012 (the New York Giants over the New England Patriots), but the top-ranked team has never won the Super Bowl.

The average rank in rushing for the last 20 Super Bowl teams: 16.05.

The average rank in rushing for the last 10 Super Bowl champions: 14.5.

Basically, being one of the top rushing teams gives you at best a 6-in-10 chance of making the playoffs, and it would appear that doing so requires a team to excel in another area. There is little correlation between being in the Super Bowl and running the ball, though.

Do the Browns have enough on defense to excel and allow a top-5 running game to carry them? I don't think so. They are still lacking at too many vital positions on offense -- quarterback and the skill spots. I reserve the right to change my prediction after training camp and preseason, but at this point I'm sticking with what I said after the draft: 4-12.

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...e-propel-browns

The article can be debated. However, I wanna know what factual evidence supports that the Browns will have a top five rushing offense?

Nice read and I can't help but wonder how the top ten passing teams did?

It was just a hypothetical question he was asked.

'PFF Breaks Down Isaiah Crowell'

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/7/10/8928389/pff-breaks-down-isaiah-crowell

Reading Tim Miller's, from Dawgsbynature, conclusion I think one can interpret completely different:

1. Offensive line faced a stacked box,
2. Crowell was indecisive hitting the hole, or
3. QB/WR weren't much of a threat.

Funny, West never appears in any of the stats listed in the article. I also find it interesting Tate's contribution was no better than the rookie Crowell. Was Tate over hyped?

In order for the run game to truly be successful, teams need to be quick paced. Offense last year always seemed like they were running in quicksand with little rhythm.

That is an interesting breakdown and I agree w/most of it. Certainly, Crow got hit behind the LOS a lot. He also broke off a lot of runs where he gained significant chunks of yardage. The key is to get him past the first level unscathed. He runs low and is a good one-cut runner if you give him a crease.

The OL is certainly more adept at pass blocking than run blocking.

Browns' Wilbert Montgomery calls out his RBs: 'Nobody wants the role'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 09, 2015 at 4:31 PM, updated August 09, 2015 at 5:48 PM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns running back coach Wilbert Montgomery called out his running backs Sunday for not stepping up and demanding the starting job. He also criticized them for not coming to camp and "tip-top shape'' and getting injured.

"How can you play and not want to be a starter?'' said Montgomery. "It just bothers me that guys don't want to be the lead bell-cow guy. I always talk to them about what this game gives you as a young person, what it does for them in life and to their families. So if you want to be a backup then be a backup, but I mean you're gonna get replaced. At some point you've got to be a starter if you want to hang around."

Montgomery, who's had a rash of injuries to his backs, lamented the fact that his second-year backs Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell haven't grabbed the bull by the horns.

"The guys that were here last year, you look for somebody to take that next step,'' he said. "Is it going to happen? I don't know, and that's why I let them know every day, the competition is still the same. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants the role.''

Montgomery cited his own days as a two-time All-Pro back with the Eagles and his years of coaching Hall of Famer Marshall Faulk and three-time Pro Bowler Steven Jackson as the ideal role for a star back.

"You always (got) the one bell cow guy,'' he said."These kids here have to realize what's important for them now. If I want to make money and get the next contract, I've got to show something. I really have to show something and right now I think the importance of that is missing.

Montgomery, who benched Crowell and West at times last year for poor practice habits, challenged not only them to go for the gusto, but rookie Duke Johnson and others as well. Johnson has already been ruled out of the preseason opener Thursday night against the Redskins with his pulled hamstring and has some catching up to do.

"Why can't West take the big step? Why can't (Glenn) Winston take the big step? Again, it's like why can't a young guy like Duke come in and take that step? Somebody has to say, 'You know what, hey, this is my team. I want the lead role. I want to be the guy.''

Montgomery, an old-school tough-as-nails coach, also criticized the backs for not coming to camp in shape and getting injured. Johnson is out indefinitely with the hamstring, West just returned with a strained calf muscle, fullback Malcolm Johnson is out with a shoulder injury, Winston came to camp with a knee injury and underwent a scope last week, and Shaun Draughn suffered a left thumb injury in the scrimmage and will be in a cast for at least the next few days. The Browns have had to call in reinforcements in Jalen Parmele and Tim Flanders.

"The disappointing thing was that all those guys approaching here and not being in tip-top shape,'' he said. "I think that was a total setback and now they are climbing back up hill and that's why they're taking a backseat right now.

"In this game right here, if you're going to be a running back, your job is to get hit and your job is being able to bounce back from injuries really quickly because it's most like playing a game every week.

"Each day you've got to be healthy and ready to go and you've got to play injured, you've got to play sore and you've got to play banged up, and if you can't play with those thing there, you really can't play."

Montgomery wants to avoid the running-back-by-committee approach he took last year with the uneven rookies.

"You need multiple backs, but I want one guy to be able to say, 'Hey, we know who the starter is, like the other 31 teams in the National Football League,'' he said. "All the backs are doing well. It's just that you're looking for the guy you can strap the saddle on and they just say, 'hey, I want the job.'''

Montgomery stressed that Crowell, out of Alabama State, won't win the starting job by default because he's one of the last men standing.

"No, it doesn't mean that, because he's got to show me that he's hungry,'' said Montgomery. "And [what] I mean by hungry, if you want to be a starter, you practice like a starter and you do the things that you'd want. You take care of your body. You show up and do the things that are going to keep you healthy, get treatment after practice, hydrate, do all the little things you have to do in order to be that guy."

So, the Crow isn't showing he wants to be fed?

"I'm not saying he's not showing it, but as a coach, you're looking for more,'' he said. "You're looking for more because I've coached the Marshall Faulks, the Steven Jacksons, the Ray Rices, the Willis McGahees. I know Crow was (an undrafted) free agent.

"These guys were first-round draft picks, so I want to put him at the top of the ladder like these guys were. They wanted the ball, and they demanded the ball. And that's what you want. You want somebody to demand the ball."

Montgomery was actually far more positive about West than he was of Crowell, who hasn't missed any time this camp. Last season, the two backs split the load, with West, the team's third-round pick in 2014, rushing 171 times for 673 yards and four TDs, and Crowell running 148 times for 607 yards and eight TDs.

"Terrance has done everything that we've asked him to do up to this point,'' said Montgomery. "He worked hard. He's working hard every day that he's out on the field. His demeanor is definitely not the same as it was last season. In classrooms, he's always asking the questions. If he's not clear about something, he asks questions. Terrance has done a great job. I'm proud of where he's at right now.''

Montgomery refused to rule out Johnson, the third-round pick out of Miami, as his featured back this season despite the fact he might miss a few preseason games.

"I can't say that Duke won't be the bell cow or Crow won't be the bell cow or West or the other guys, but I do think at looking at what we went through last year. ...that you have opportunity to showcase your abilities and what you can do when you get out on the field.''

Besides, he saw so much potential in Miami's all-time leading rusher during offseason workouts that he's still a bona fide candidate to carry the load.

"He's just missing reps,'' said Montgomery. "He's sitting in meetings all the time, taking notes, doing what we ask him to do, but Duke showed so much in the OTAs and the mini-camp, and before his injury, he showed us the things that we wanted to see, so as long as he stays focused and stays into it, I think he's going to be okay because he had done a lot of things already.

"The running part of it, he's a running back. Put him on his track and tell him his keys, and he's going to be fine. Plus, he played in the system before, so he has a little bit of an advantage than the other guys like Crowell and West. They've never played in the system, and last year was the first time. Duke has been in it all three years in college.

He noted that Johnson is more versatile than the other backs and can be used in multiple ways.

"He gives you another dimension that we don't have in the group that we had last year because Duke can be a slot receiver, he can line up wide, and you can move him all over the field,'' Montgomery said. "It's like he's a total mismatch. In my report, I wrote him up as a Thurman Thomas-type running back when he came out because he can be in any spot and he can take full advantage of his athleticism.''

What's more, he believes Johnson can be an every-down back despite his smaller stature (5-9, 210).

"When you're on this level, everybody can be a lead back,'' said Montgomery. "It's what you're looking for. We don't have a bell-cow guy. The game today is a situational game, and you don't know what personnel you're putting out there on the field. You can go three wides, four wides or two tight ends-one back. It all depends on what the coordinator calls and what personnel he wants out on the field, and Duke can fit into all the personnels.''

Even if Montgomery had a full complement of backs in camp, he still wouldn't know who his starter is yet.

"I have a hard time evaluating guys when they're in their knock-off shorts and no pads and underwear,'' said Montgomery. "I want to see what they do with the pads on because that's what separates them. I've sat in so many meetings and talked about what a guy is in shorts and then we they put the shorts on he's a different animal. I love to see them with the pads on and that's what I really want out here in the next few weeks is to see if somebody is willing to pick up the flag."

Despite the thinned ranks and the lack of reps for so many of his wounded guys, Montgomery still characterized the competition as a "close race.''

"It's early,'' he said. "We only had the pads on for one week. After that, after we start to get into these preseason games, someone step up. The good test starts this week and then we'll practice against Buffalo and that's a big change there. We'll go on from there."

To put it another way, take my running back job ....please.

Well, that is great news...

What an offensive juggernaut "Text" has assembled...

It's always good news from Browns camp!

I see this article from a couple of different perspectives:

1. Wilbert was a very good back. I remember watching him play and he was very effective, but man.......he talks too much. He was the one who brought up the issues between West and Tate last year. Think more, speak less...Wilbert.

2. A lot of fans are assuming that the Browns can win this year by having an excellent defense and a very good running game, but neither is a given---especially the running game. Our OL is better at pass blocking than run blocking. Our backs are not spectacular. I think there were only 2 teams that averaged less yards per carry than us last year.

Aackkk..........I know, I am being negative.

Its up to the coaches, not the players.. Tate was rude and arrogant, and got cut. I like Crowell, and really glad he has turned his life around and been out of off the field trouble.

Did you read the article that is a few posts above yours?

Sorry,but if you want to be a heavy run oriented team,with though defense....you need a franchise back. RBC is a short term approach,that works best if you have a passing game to augment it. These guys will have some real good games,but it's just more of what we've already have seen. Bunch of close losses,because they couldn't get that TD in the red zone ect....

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about running back questions and Ray Rice -- Terry Pluto (photos, video)

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/08/cleveland_browns_running_back.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer on August 10, 2015 at 11:14 AM, updated August 11, 2015 at 7:14 AM

BEREA, Ohio -- I keep telling myself that it's early. The Browns first preseason game isn't until Thursday, when Washington comes to town.

But having been at training camp five times, it's disturbing to see the Browns running game.

Or lack of running game.

I didn't say lack of talent. Or lack of emphasis on the running game.

It's just that the Browns thought they had three very viable options at running back -- Terrance West, Isaiah Crowell and rookie Duke Johnson. Crowell is the only member of that trio to consistently be on the field.

They had a fourth possibility in Glenn Winston, a player claimed on waivers prior to the opening of the 2014 season. General Manager Ray Farmer has been intrigued by Winston for a while, although he has yet to carry the ball in a game for the Browns.

A fifth back is Shaun Draughn, who has been with five different teams since 2011. The coaches like his professional attitude. But Draughn showed up at Sunday's practice with his left arm wrapped up because of a thumb injury. He had been on the field quite a bit until then.

Raw Talent? Yes.

Potential? Certainly.

Dependability? Not right now.

That's an issue with a team planning to base much of its offense on the run. This is a team with young backs and a rookie offensive coordinator. It's a team with yet another new offense. It will be much different than what we saw from the Browns in 2014 when it comes to the running backs.

So these guys need practice time, but that's not been happening because of injuries.

Now you know why running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery sounded so frustrated when he spoke to the media Sunday. He talked about how none of the backs wants to claim the starting position. He wondered why they didn't show up in better shape.

Montgomery doesn't like the idea of running back by committee, but that appears to be the direction that the team is heading.

MISSING THE DUKE

The biggest concern is Johnson. The Browns were thrilled to grab the University of Miami's all-time rusher in the third round. New offensive coordinator John DeFilippo wants to throw passes to backs. Johnson is ideally suited for that role.

But Johnson has been out since the third day of training camp with a significant hamstring injury. He's not expected to practice this week. Coach Mike Pettine is not sure about Johnson's returning the following week.

Here's the problem: Johnson is missing valuable time with his new team in his first pro season.

But here's a bigger problem: If Johnson comes back too soon and tears the hamstring, he could be done for the season.

Hamstring injuries are tricky because they usually linger longer than expected. And a hamstring injury to a running back is serious business. The Browns simply have to wait for Johnson to do his therapy and heal.

Montgomery said this to the media on Sunday about Johnson: "Duke showed so much in the OTAs and the minicamp. Before his injury, he showed us the things that we wanted to see. As long as he stays focused and stays into it, I think he's going to be OK. He's done a lot of things already... The running part of it, he's a running back. Put him on his track and tell him his keys, and he's going to be fine.''

Montgomery said Johnson is familiar with the Browns offense because it is very similar to what his Miami team used the previous three years. Montgomery loves Johnson, comparing him to former Buffalo star Thurman Thomas.

The Browns need to keep that mindset about Johnson.

WHO KNOWS ABOUT WINSTON?

Winston had arthroscopic knee surgery last Thursday. He had a bad knee when he arrived in camp and it never did get better. He will be out for at least a month.

Winston had 113 yards in 19 carries for the 49ers in the 2014 preseason. The Browns claimed him off waivers. With all the injuries, this would have been a good time for Winston to show what he could do.

But he's out, too.

SOMETHING TO PROVE

Terrance West rushed for 679 yards and a 3.9 average last season as a rookie out of Towson State.

West had 100 yards in 16 carries in his first pro game, and he did it in Pittsburgh. The coaches seemed to think West became too secure and soon his production dropped. He was inactive for the fifth game of the season -- a coach's decision because of poor practice habits.

West had good games (94 yards each) against Cincinnati and Baltimore. So his three best games of the season were against AFC North opponents, showing that West has talent.

But he didn't have consistency.

West injured a calf muscle early in camp. He was back Sunday. But calf injuries also can be problematic. It's another injury where it's dangerous to rush back too soon.

Montgomery said he's seen more maturity in West this season.

"I'm proud of where he's at right now," said Montgomery.

But he also said none of the running backs have taken the opportunity to become a starter, and Montgomery is wondering why that is the case.

Actually, injuries seems to be the biggest obstacle right now.

WILL CROWELL TAKE ADVANTAGE?

With Johnson hurt and West just getting healthy, the starting spot is wide open for Crowell.

But Montgomery said Crowell "has to show me that he's hungry."

Crowell is an undrafted free agent from Alabama State who made the team in 2014 based on a strong final preseason game performance. The 5-foot-11, 225-pounder seems to be more physically gifted than West.

But like West, Crowell had games where he seemed to float. He rushed for 607 yards in 148 carries -- a 4.1 average. He rushed for eight touchdowns.

His best game was 88 yards rushing and two touchdowns in Atlanta. He is from Columbus, Ga., and lots of friends and family were at that game. It was the kind of intense, emotional performance the Browns want from him every week.

WONDERING ABOUT RAY RICE

Some fans have emailed me about signing Ray Rice.

The obvious issue is the history of domestic violence and how bringing in Rice would create yet another media circus for the Browns.

From 2009-2012, Rice averaged 1,250 yard per season, a 4.6 yard per carry average with Baltimore. He was a rugged, productive back on a very good team.

But lost in that was how Rice played in 2013, his final NFL season. He averaged 3.1 yards per carry, gained only 660 yards. The Ravens were very concerned that he had turned into an old back very fast because of all the heavy work load in his early seasons.

There were doubts about Rice the running back before the domestic abuse.

Rice told ESPN that a hip injury was the reason for his decline in 2013, and that he's healthy now. He is only 28, and insists he can still play.

I find it interesting that several fans have contacted me about the Rice...but not Chris Johnson.

Consider that Rice didn't play last year. In 2013, he had that 3.1 average.

In 2014, Johnson ran for 663 yards = a 4.3 average -- with the Jets. He caught 24 passes. Johnson is 29 and on the down side of his career, but what makes Rice a better prospect right now?

I'd rather wait for the current group of running backs to heal than bring in Rice and see if he has anything left. His lack of production the last time he played is a major concern.

Many running backs gas quickly. Ben Tate was on empty at the age of 26 last season. A few weeks from now if the Browns backs are still hurt and the situation is a mess, then it would be worth giving someone else a look -- and I prefer Johnson.

But not right now.

THE COMMITTEE IS NOT DISMISSED

Montgomery doesn't want a repeat of 2014, where no one emerged as a full-time starting running back. Tate, Crowell and West all started games. None could hold the job.

Crowell and West rushed for a combined 1,280 yards and 12 touchdowns. Pretty good production. But Montgomery wants a big-time back to emerge. Not sure that will happen, unless Johnson heals quickly and grabs the job.

So it may be running back by committee once again this season.

For the Browns, the good news is running back tends to be one of the easiest positions for young players to learn. If these injuries remain minor, the position might be sorted out by opening day.

But right now, there are a lot of question marks and there's a veteran running back coach who doesn't have many answers.



(end)

Don't care if we have four no name running backs that are under 150 lbs, have a fumble history and etc etc... just say no to Ray Rice. No...

Ray Rice playing for the Browns? It's been discussed in Cleveland

BEREA, Ohio—No critical mass has been reached in Cleveland’s backfield just yet, but with the Browns clearly dissatisfied with their young rushers early this preseason, file away the Browns as one of the more logical and likely landing spots for former Baltimore running back Ray Rice.

Browns coach Mike Pettine acknowledged to SI.com Tuesday that the club has discussed signing Rice, who has been out of the league since being released by Baltimore last September, the day the infamous elevator surveillance camera footage of his attack on his then fiancee surfaced.

Pettine was asked if the Browns were considering adding a veteran to the mix at running back, to go with second-year players Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West and rookie third-round pick Duke Johnson. “We’ve talked about it, but I don’t think we’re there at this point,” Pettine said.

Could that veteran be Rice? Pettine was quick to point out the ties he and at least one member of his coaching staff have with Rice.

“Of course it’s a natural question here because of [Browns running backs coach] Wilbert [Montgomery], and because I was with Ray when he was a Ravens rookie (in 2008) and know a lot of people in Baltimore,” Pettine said. “Obviously Wilbert was his position coach for Ray’s first six years in the league (2008–13). I’m not going to say it didn’t come up in discussion, but at this point we’re not there yet.”
Rice never played in Baltimore for any other running backs coach but Montgomery, unless you count the 2014 preseason, just before his career went into hibernation. Under Montgomery, Rice earned three Pro Bowl berths, and topped more than 1,100 rushing yards and 1,600 yards from scrimmage in four consecutive seasons (2009–12). His 9,214 yards from scrimmage in '08–13 ranked fourth overall in the NFL in that span. In addition, Pettine served as the Ravens’ outside linebackers coach in 2008, before leaving for a job on Rex Ryan’s staff with the Jets the following year.

Rice, 28, continues to generate little or no interest on the NFL’s free-agent market, in part because he had the worst season of his career in 2013 (the most recent season he played), averaging just 3.1 yard per carry and rushing for just 660 yards, and in part because of how radioactive his name became as the face of the league’s domestic violence problem. The running-back needy Cardinals reportedly offered another veteran free-agent rusher, ex-Jets and Titans star Chris Johnson, a one-year deal on Tuesday, but Rice still remains a man without a team.

Asked if Rice’s recent controversial past would preclude him from being signed in Cleveland, or whether anyone in the Browns organization viewed him as untouchable because of the potential for a public backlash to his arrival, Pettine said his club would deal with that question only when the need for a veteran runner became pressing enough.
“I don’t think it’s gotten to that point, to say, ‘Hey, I’d kind of be comfortable with it,’” Pettine said. “But I think it would get to that point if we arrived at it from a football standpoint, then asked that question. Instead of working the process backwards. Why bother with asking the question if the need never presents itself?”

Perhaps the first game or two of the Browns preseason schedule will help determine the level of need in the backfield, one way or another.

In Browns camp on Aug. 9, Montgomery pulled few punches in critiquing the first two weeks of work turned in by his top three running backs, bemoaning that no one had seized the lead in the competition for the No. 1 job—“Nobody wants the role”—and labeling it “a total setback” that some of his backs had reported to camp in less than top condition. Montgomery also reminded his group that running backs have to play through pain and injuries at times.

West missed time last week with a calf strain, returning to practice over the weekend, while Johnson has battled a lingering hamstring problem that cost him the Browns’ intrasquad scrimmage on Saturday in Columbus, and will sideline him for Cleveland’s preseason opener against visiting Washington on Thursday. In addition, Crowell, last year’s second-leading rusher for the Browns with 603 yards, has yet to distance himself from the pack, and the whole picture in the backfield has been troubling for a team that hopes to build its offense around a strong and consistent running game.
Pettine called the fact that his top three running backs didn’t report to camp in great condition “disappointing,” adding “it was Duke as well. It was the three of them. That’s a tough deal to have, three guys in that room and they struggled. They struggled early and two of them obviously got hurt.”

Montgomery’s unvarnished message-sending had the full blessing of his boss, the Browns second-year head coach. “I don’t want my assistants saying anything publicly that they wouldn’t tell the player to his face,” Pettine said. “But Wilbert’s old-school, blunt force trauma, however you want to categorize it. That’s Wilbert. I had no issue with that. Those young guys, sometimes they need a bucket of cold water thrown in their face, and Wilbert’s just the man for the job.”

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/11/ray-rice-cleveland-browns-mike-pettine-wilbert-montgomery

The reason I would see is his last season played. His productivity dropped to underwhelm everyone. He's hit the RB wall with so many miles on his legs. Very few RB's reverse or escape that wall. The evidence IMO of the 2013 season indicate Rice would be of no help at the RB position.

yea... but he never ran behind a o-line like we have.......

You might wish to use purple for those that may miss that one. lol

Of course it's RBC again....not sure why Pluto,needed to take the long winded way home to figure that one out. The team is essentially the same one we saw last year,but with a less sporadic QB under center in McCown. Pettine and Farmer have told us from day one,who they were,what they believe,and the type of club the Browns will be...and it's not a powerhouse offensive approach,that's for sure. The way I see it,one of them is getting the boot if this season is ugly...and my money is on Farmer being canned.