According to Adam Schefter of ESPN, the trade involves the Browns sending their first-round pick in 2019 (No. 17 overall), one of the Browns third-round picks this year (their second one) as well as safety Jabrill Peppers.
It's a stunner of a deal and, frankly, an incredible steal for the Browns. They lose a potential stud and former first-round pick in terms of Peppers but their offense is suddenly LOADED.
Baker Mayfield, who should have been the 2018 NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year, will be throwing to Beckham, Jarvis Landry (OBJ's teammate at LSU), Antonio Callaway and David Njoku. Not too shabby, and you can throw Nick Chubb into the mix in the backfield as well. This is suddenly a filthy offense the Browns are trotting out onto the field as they hope to contend for the division title.
It's an aggressive-as-all-get-out play by GM John Dorsey, and it probably won't be cheap. As CBS Sports NFL Insider Jason La Canfora reported on CBS Sports HQ on Tuesday night, there should be plenty of issues that Odell has to deal with in terms of his contract. Beckham was not, La Canfora reported, a part of the trade talks between the two teams as the negotiations were going along.
In other words, Beckham if he wanted, could potentially raise a stink about the trade and wanting a new contract -- a la Antonio Brown to the Bills in a deal that fell through -- and create some issues. That being said, he's going to a good spot on a fun young team with a ton of talented skill position players.
Beckham sounded stunned when talking to Kim Jones of NFL Network, calling the trade news "bittersweet" because he would be leaving New York. "At this point I have no idea what to think. I'm trying to process it right now," Beckham told Jones. "[Leaving NYC is] bittersweet, but it is what it is. It's life."Beckham also told Jones he had a "brief" conversation with Gettleman.
For the Giants, this is not entirely a white-flag situation with their 2019 season, but it does signal a move towards making Saquon Barkley the face of the franchise and moving on from the best player on the roster -- not a thing teams usually do -- just a year after doubling down on the twilight of Eli Manning's career.
Beckham will cost the Giants $16 million in dead cap space this year as a result of him being traded, with New York freeing up $5 million in salary cap space. There will be some people who point to the Giants needing to move on from Beckham because of his personality -- and I firmly believe they want to make put everything on Saquon, in terms of media attention and selling tickets and whatnot -- but the reality is Beckham has been one of the best receivers in the history of football through the first five years of his career. He averaged 78 catches, 1,095 receiving yards and just shy of nine touchdowns per season over the course of his career with the Giants.
Now New York will feature Sterling Shepard and Evan Engram as its primary playmakers in the passing game (outside of Saquon, of course). Corey Coleman is the next man up on the depth chart after Shepard, so it's not necessarily an ideal situation for what could very well be Eli's final season in New York.
The difference between the Browns depth chart at receiver and the Giants depth chart is startling.
The Westgate SuperBook released updated Super Bowl odds in the wake of the Beckham trade, with the Browns now at 14-to-1 to win it all. That's better than the Chargers, Bears and Colts (all at 16-to-1), as well as the Vikings and Eagles (both at 20-to-1). The Browns' AFC North rivals are well behind the Browns, with the Steelers at 30-to-1 and the Ravens at 40-to-1. The Giants' odds to win the title have dropped to 80-to-1.
According to SportsLine's projections, the Browns move from 9.5 wins in 2019 to 10.1 wins in the coming season, while their Super Bowl chances spike from 1.6 percent to 3.3 percent (a massive difference in the Super Bowl odds market). Cleveland's chances to win the division move from 38.3 percent to 50.5 percent according to SportsLine.
The Giants win total according to SportsLine doesn't move that much. They drop from 7.7 wins to 7.4 wins and their Super Bowl odds -- 0.4 percent -- only slipped to 0.3 percent. SportsLine did not project the Giants as a good football team before the Beckham trade and they are obviously a worse team, for this season, after it.
So on the one hand - my image and 'sort of perception' of OBJ is that of the sort of Diva I don't like ... I don't know the circumstances around his beefs with Josh Norman and the sideline histrionics at NYG - so there is some risk to the trade.
BUT ... he's one of the most talented WR's in the game today. He's the sort of WR I like ... he gets separation constantly. He demands teams game plan for him ... He works his butt off ... I gotta say I love this trade. It makes Landry and Calloway better. It makes Njoku better. It makes Baker better ... and Baker truly has the potential to make OBJ better!
17, 95 and Peppers ??? I think that's a steal.
I know Peppers improved last year - but I am not sold on him. In his rookie year he showed me that - when in space - he can't cover, he takes bad angles and he is not a good tackler .... fundamental things for a safety. Sort of like a college QB being unlikely to get more accurate in the NFL - I just don't see the leap to Peppers reading the game and improving those 3 issues.... As an attacking piece close to the line, in limited space I thought he stood out - but you can't play a safety like that unless you are a pretty special D.
Before the trade I thought the Browns would win the Division. After the trade I think we could be looking at a final 4 appearance .. injuries and bad luck notwithstanding.
Draft is still going to be interesting. Some important pieces and depth needed. Can't wait.
Dorsey nailed his first draft with the Browns - it *appears* that Dorsey has nailed his 2nd year free agency. Shelton, Vernon, OBJ ... each one a huge improvement and none broke the bank. In Dorsey we trust!
A different, NYG perspective. Take it for what it is worth.
Odell Beckham Jr. trade: Why Giants decided to deal 'pain in the ass' receiver....... Source: "...there was a real fear that eventually it would get worse."
Dave Gettleman was telling the truth when he said the Giants didn't sign Odell Beckham Jr. to trade him. John Mara believed the receiver was a transcendent star the franchise could market and build around. Pat Shurmur, perhaps his greatest champion in the building, had worked overtime to build a relationship with the man he thought would be the linchpin of his offense.
So what happened? How did everything go so wrong that the Giants were willing to ship Beckham away less than seven months after giving him a five-year, $90 million contract?
"He had become too much of a pain in the ass," said one source familiar with the situation. "And there was a real fear that eventually it would get worse."
That is as good an explanation for any for why the Giants sent the 26-year-old Beckham to the Cleveland Browns on Tuesday night for a first-round pick (17th overall), a third-round pick and safety Jabrill Peppers. It was "absolutely not a football decision," according to one team source. The Giants are well aware that replacing Beckham on the field might be impossible.
But off the field they had grown tired of dealing with his headaches, and as Gettleman explained to reporters at the NFL scouting combine two weeks ago, "part of the responsibility of a general manager is to eliminate distractions." Beckham had become a lightning rod in New York, and no matter how the Giants tried to manage him, they couldn't keep him out of the spotlight.
Also, they did not feel he was truly happy playing in New York and for a Giants franchise that was struggling, one source said. And after seeing the way Antonio Brown forced his way out of Pittsburgh over the last few months, there was a worry that in a year or two - especially if the Giants and their quarterback continued to struggle -- Beckham could go that route, too.
So they listened to offers on and off for the last year, hoping to get something close to two first-round picks in return, multiple sources said. The Browns only had one to offer, but when they were willing to throw in Peppers - a player the Giants loved in the 2017 draft - Gettleman convinced everyone it was time to move.
It wasn't supposed to happen this way, of course. After Shurmur was hired as the new Giants' head coach in January 2018, he did everything he could to build a relationship with Beckham at a difficult time in the receiver's career. Beckham was rehabbing from the ankle injury that cost him most of the 2017 season, and was doing it mostly in Los Angeles. He also wanted a new contract and negotiations hadn't gotten anywhere, which led him to be distant from the team.
Not long after that, the famous video came out of him in bed in Paris with a woman, a pizza, and what looked to many like marijuana. The Giants, from the owners on down, were furious at him. That's when they started listening to trade offers and refused to commit to him being on the 2018 team.
Shurmur, though, spoke to Beckham often, visited him in Los Angeles, and even convinced him to attend part of the Giants' offseason program - something he wasn't planning to do at all. He behaved and managed to convince the Giants he was worth the long-term investment, which led to his record-breaking deal.
But when the season started, the Giants' struggled and Beckham became frustrated - particularly with Manning, whom he clearly thought was in decline. Then, in early October, he infuriated Shurmur and Giants management by going on ESPN - without telling the team - and doing an interview where he was asked if the Giants had a quarterback problem. His answer: "I don't know."
In that same interview, Beckham was asked if he was happy in New York and he said "It's a tough question," before he waxed poetic about the sunshine in California. That did not sit well with Mara, coming about a month after the owner gave him a $20 million signing bonus and guaranteeing him $65 million to play for a New York team.
"I think he needs to do a little more playing," Mara said at the time, "and a little less talking."
Behind the scenes, it got worse. Beckham didn't hide his unhappiness with the offense, particularly when talking to his fellow receivers. Manning publicly remained supportive of Beckham, and insisted he wasn't affected by his receiver's seeming lack of support. But some of his friends were sure Manning was bothered by what seemed like a needless distraction.
The Giants certainly were, and so was Shurmur. They were also furious late in the season when Beckham suffered an injured quad that seemed to be healing before he was suddenly inactive for a game against the Redskins. The Giants kept the injury shrouded in mystery. Then Beckham broke protocol by revealing the timing of it and the diagnosis (a "hematoma") in a Facebook post.
Yes, each of those is seemingly a minor infraction. But one of Gettleman's priorities has been to clean up the locker room and get everyone to think and play as a team. Beckham was loved by most of his teammates. He was known to be an incredibly hard worker.
But there's no doubt the off-the-field distractions were constantly there.
"You've got to eliminate distractions," Gettleman said at the combine, and not specifically about Beckham. "There used to be a thing I used to call 'the a--hole quotient.' The bigger the a--hole you are, the better the player you had to be. Plain and simple. It's funny (but) it's true. It really is. Think of the great players that you've seen around the league who have been just complete jerks. At the end of the day, what was the sum total of their career and their effect on their teams?"
Gettleman clearly decided that for all Beckham's ability, his effect on his team was an overall negative. And if Manning struggled again this year, and Beckham had to deal with a rookie quarterback, it had the potential to get worse over time. And Gettleman's biggest concern with the Giants was the "culture" he was creating.
"I've been to seven (Super Bowls)," Gettleman said. "And every single team had a great locker room. I'm telling you. I've been to seven of them and they all had great locker rooms. Part of the responsibility of a general manager is to eliminate distractions. Allow players to play and coaches to coach. And unfortunately, guys that have character issues create distractions. They do."
Again, he wasn't talking specifically about Beckham. But it's clear that in Gettleman's vision of the perfect Giants' locker room, a headline-grabbing, spotlight-loving, superstar receiver just didn't fit in.
I'll say it again. Win-win for both teams. The Giants got their 2 first round picks plus a 3rd round pick, and we got the best WR in football. Dorsey wasn't out to screw the Giants and Gettleman didn't pull one over on us. Both teams should be very happy. We're the favorite to win the AFCN and they have the ammo they need to start their rebuild.
NYG are obviously going to spin this and try to prevent getting slammed....
Regards to this article and Gettleman's comments -- I think it says more about Gettleman's ability to put together a competitive team and his, Shurmur's and Manning's ability to communicate and work with their most talented asset.
Yes u are right, John was such a numbers guy. He cleared all this space and acquired all these picks. Just like Depo did such a wonderful job drafting Baker and Ward lol
Letting Schwartz go never happens if u have Dorsey. He is the football guru. He tells Depo are u stupid? As I said in another post we have the best analytics department and we have the best football guys in football.
It's a combination of brilliance. People give Freddie credit for willing to hire top guys but we gotta do the same with Dorsey. Hiring wolf and Hightower and wanting to learn about what Depo does.
This is coming together because your king is not so ego driven that he can listen and learn from the knights at the table.
Letting Schwartz go never happens if u have Dorsey. He is the football guru. He tells Depo are u stupid? As I said in another post we have the best analytics department and we have the best football guys in football.
It's a combination of brilliance. People give Freddie credit for willing to hire top guys but we gotta do the same with Dorsey. Hiring wolf and Hightower and wanting to learn about what Depo does.
This is coming together because your king is not so ego driven that he can listen and learn from the knights at the table.
If Dorsey hadn't been in KC, Schwartz would probably still be here. It's not like we didn't offer him a deal. Just Saying.
Can't really blame a NY outlet for trying to put a positive spin on this and in the end it may be true.. the Giants are either going to have an aging Eli at QB or a rookie.. they are starting a rebuild this year or next, one way or the other...
Having a demanding WR who wants the ball, who wants the spotlight, might not be in their best interest at this point..
This could very well work out well for both teams.
Seriously guys, we just traded for the best WR in football that makes us the division favorite in the North, and a may possibly hold a home playoff game here in the VERY near future, and you guys are barking bout things in the past.
I'll say it again. Win-win for both teams. The Giants got their 2 first round picks plus a 3rd round pick, and we got the best WR in football. Dorsey wasn't out to screw the Giants and Gettleman didn't pull one over on us. Both teams should be very happy. We're the favorite to win the AFCN and they have the ammo they need to start their rebuild.
GO BROWNS!
This is coming from a guy that likes Peppers a bunch, but 1st round pick, yeah, he was, but he's listed as the 16th best Safety in the league.. So while he was indeed a 1st rounder, he's not all that and a bag of chips..
But I do think essentially, you are right.. nobody got screwed in this deal...
If the Giants get good players with those picks,,, they did well, if they don't,, well yeah, they got screwed LOL
According to Adam Schefter of ESPN, the trade involves the Browns sending their first-round pick in 2019 (No. 17 overall), one of the Browns third-round picks this year (their second one) as well as safety Jabrill Peppers.
Just to note, it looks like the 4th rounders that were swapped in the Vernon trade were reverted back.
So overall, it's Zeitler, Peppers, a first and a third (second one), for Oliver and Beckham Jr.
As I said in another post we have the best analytics department and we have the best football guys in football.
It's a combination of brilliance. People give Freddie credit for willing to hire top guys but we gotta do the same with Dorsey. Hiring wolf and Hightower and wanting to learn about what Depo does.
Letting Schwartz go never happens if u have Dorsey. He is the football guru. He tells Depo are u stupid? As I said in another post we have the best analytics department and we have the best football guys in football.
It's a combination of brilliance. People give Freddie credit for willing to hire top guys but we gotta do the same with Dorsey. Hiring wolf and Hightower and wanting to learn about what Depo does.
This is coming together because your king is not so ego driven that he can listen and learn from the knights at the table.
I agree. Don't worry about it, they can think what they want. All that matters is it is working even if some don't know all the reasons why.
Okay, I'm going to try to break this down from my perspective...
IMO this was a very good deal. We have Baker and you either have to go all in with him and give him the weapons to reach his full potential or not. As a rookie I think he has proven he has the talent to take us where we all want to go if you give him the weapons to get there with. Do I think it's a "must have" to acquire a HOF WR to accomplish that? Probably not. But it most certainly makes the climb much easier. There is nobody anywhere that can make a legitimate argument that we don't have the weapons both in the passing game and the running game.
Some claim we gave them two 1st round picks because Peppers was a part of the trade. But really? No.
Peppers is a former first round pick. Once you are drafted your draft status is no longer relevant. Your grade is based on your NFL performance as a player. A first round draft pick is based on where he was drafted on draft day. On a pick you are giving up in an upcoming draft.
Danny Shelton was a first round draft pick on draft day. Brandon Weeden was a first round draft pick on draft day. We picked up Perriman who was a former first round pick for a song off the scrap heap. Do I really need to go on? After draft day, you're an NFL player and your value is based on what you've done in the NFL. Peppers was a pretty good player. I wish him all the best. But he was a late first round pick who as of yet is an average player at his position. Peppers is replaceable. Can you say the same about a HOF talent whose been proven in the NFL? Not really.
So no, we gave up a #17 pick, a very serviceable SS and a late third round pick for OBJ. Not a bargain basement price but a pretty damned good deal.
While I certainly didn't think this deal would go down, it was certainly set up to. We addressed our need at DT. We addressed our need in strengthening our pass rush at DE. So the stage was set for such a move.
Now where I think some may be going overboard is the sudden enthusiasm that one HOF WR suddenly makes you a contender for a SB. He does not. When you combine the moves we've made on D with the addition of OBJ, you're certainly a much better team.
The growth of Mayfield and our rookie crop from last year also adds to the puzzle. So while I certainly feel we have a strong possibility of winning our division and could make a run in the playoffs, it's a combination of the off season moves, the maturity of Baker and our other rookies combined with the addition of OBJ that make it so. It's not one piece of the puzzle that makes this possible, it's a culmination of the complete puzzle being put together that puts us where we are today.
Agreed. Vers, your one of the voices of reason on this board whom I enjoy reading. I'm as excited about this as anyone but I am also cautious. We have a new coaching staff and granted, a lot of exciting players that may need time to grow together. They may need some time. As you stated, let's just enjoy this. The next step is who else will we sign in FA, if anyone, and then next months draft. I haven't been this excited to be a Browns fan in over 30 years but we still have some unfinished business.
While I agree for the most part, the Browns still have some holes. SAM, and SS . Since it's the start of FA , it will be seen how it plays out if Dorsey signs someone to fill one or both spots. I'm really curious what happens on draft day since ,at the moment the Browns have their 2nd round pick and the first of their 3rd round picks..the other being dealt to the Giants.
Trying to get the thread back on track, as in....discussing the trade and it's ramifications.
Maybe this question is for the draft forum, but what picks do we have now, as a full updated list. We had an extra 3rd after the first Giants trade, now we don’t.
Maybe this question is for the draft forum, but what picks do we have now, as a full updated list. We had an extra 3rd after the first Giants trade, now we don’t.
I don't think the extra third rounder was from the Giants. I think it was from the Shelton trade. We swapped 4th rounders when we made the first trade, then swapped them back when we made the Beckham trade. So now it's:
Second round: No. 49 (own pick). Third round: No. 80 (own pick). Fourth round: No. 119 (own pick). Fifth round: No. 144 (Jaguars’ pick via Carlos Hyde trade) Fifth round: No. 155 (own pick); No. 170 (Patriots’ pick via Josh Gordon trade). Sixth round: No. 189 (own pick). Seventh round: No. 221 (Jaguars’ pick via Cody Kessler trade).
(Edit: No wait, this might be right. We don't have the Giants 4th rounder, we swapped and then back. I'm also not sure where the last 7th rounder Attack has came from, we traded ours away)
Maybe this question is for the draft forum, but what picks do we have now, as a full updated list. We had an extra 3rd after the first Giants trade, now we don’t.
I don't think the extra third rounder was from the Giants. I think it was from the Shelton trade. We swapped 4th rounders when we made the first trade, then swapped them back when we made the Beckham trade. So now it's:
Second round: No. 49 (own pick). Third round: No. 80 (own pick). Fourth round: No. 119 (own pick). Fifth round: No. 144 (Jaguars’ pick via Carlos Hyde trade) Fifth round: No. 155 (own pick); No. 170 (Patriots’ pick via Josh Gordon trade). Sixth round: No. 189 (own pick). Seventh round: No. 221 (Jaguars’ pick via Cody Kessler trade).
(actually, I think I'm missing a few)
It's announced that after the Beckham trade the teams will keep their picks that were included in the Olivier Vernon for Kevin Zeitler trade.
I'm not sure about the 7th round pick..I was looking at a draft site to see the picks , which really isn't updated yet. This site called Tankathon(lol) shows these picks:
Getting fired as HC from one team and then ignored by (fired) by a second team in a single season, that has to make you special in the NFL. Huey is instant future trivia.
How different does today feel versus same time as last year? Can we play tomorrow, please?
Thanks, Mr. Dorsey! Please, sir, may we have a wee bit more?
Peppers is a former first round pick. Once you are drafted your draft status is no longer relevant
This is an important distinction for folks to remember.
We paid a 1st to acquire Peppers. However, once he was here and got on the field, he did NOT play to a level where he was still worth a 1st.
Ask yourself this: who in their right mind would have given up a 2019 1st to acquire Peppers? The correct answer is 'Nobody'. So, what do you think we *could* have gotten for him - a mid-level SS that is suspect in coverage? I'm thinking a mid-2nd at the most as his talent level will easily be had in the 2nd this April, so most likely just a 3rd was his realistic value.
That's it.... THAT is what we gave up in Peppers. So, for folks that want to say that we still gave up two firsts, you're not looking at his REAL value, at all.
Peppers is a former first round pick. Once you are drafted your draft status is no longer relevant
This is an important distinction for folks to remember.
We paid a 1st to acquire Peppers. However, once he was here and got on the field, he did NOT play to a level where he was still worth a 1st.
Ask yourself this: who in their right mind would have given up a 2019 1st to acquire Peppers? The correct answer is 'Nobody'. So, what do you think we *could* have gotten for him - a mid-level SS that is suspect in coverage? I'm thinking a mid-2nd at the most as his talent level will easily be had in the 2nd this April, so most likely just a 3rd was his realistic value.
That's it.... THAT is what we gave up in Peppers. So, for folks that want to say that we still gave up two firsts, you're not looking at his REAL value, at all.
I like Peppers and think he will become or would have become a vvery good but not great SS for us. But I don't think his current trade value would have fetched more that a 4th or 5th tops. No way we would get a 2nd or 3rd from him with his two year history. Hue stunted his growth playing him 30 yards from the los his first season.
Letting Schwartz go never happens if u have Dorsey. He is the football guru. He tells Depo are u stupid? As I said in another post we have the best analytics department and we have the best football guys in football.
It's a combination of brilliance. People give Freddie credit for willing to hire top guys but we gotta do the same with Dorsey. Hiring wolf and Hightower and wanting to learn about what Depo does.
This is coming together because your king is not so ego driven that he can listen and learn from the knights at the table.
I just watched a clip from the Skip Bayless(sp?) show. He had Michael Rapaport(a Giants fan) on. He was screaming about how bad the trade was etc etc. At the end they asked him if he would watch the Browns. He said everyone will be watching the Browns. That is "must watch" football. Skip said he had been saying that too. This will either be epic or the biggest disaster since the Hindenburg. Can't wait to see what happens next!
Odell gets hit just a fraction of a second sooner, and this could have been the nastiest leg injury video ever.
That is the kind of play you're going to have when you make it illegal to hit a receiver above the chest. DB's are going to go low and not risk the penalty if at all possible.
The betting public is excited about the Cleveland Browns' chances to win the Super Bowl.
Entering Tuesday, the Browns were the eighth-most bet team to win the Super Bowl at DraftKings' New Jersey sportsbook. By Wednesday morning, after a flurry of interest from reports surfacing of a trade for New York Giants star receiver Odell Beckham Jr., Cleveland had attracted more bets and more money to win the Super Bowl than any other team.
The SuperBook at Westgate Las Vegas also significantly moved the Browns' Super Bowl odds, from 25-1 to 14-1. Just one season removed from going 0-16, Cleveland now has 7-1 odds to win the AFC, behind only the New England Patriots and Kansas City Chiefs at the SuperBook.
The Browns were ninth in amount wagered on the SuperBook's Super Bowl odds, significantly behind the Patriots. SuperBook vice president of risk Jeff Sherman said they had already taken multiple five-figure bets on New England to win the Super Bowl next season, the largest a $40,000 wager at 6-1 odds.
Cleveland plays at New England this season. Oddsmakers projected the point spread on that game would be anywhere from Patriots -3.5 to -4.5, potentially a little higher.
The addition of Beckham to the Browns' upgraded roster is worth ".5 to 1 point" to the team's power rating, in line with other elite players like Julio Jones and Antonio Brown, according to Sherman. Cleveland also is expected to add defensive tackle Sheldon Richardson and defensive end Olivier Vernon this offseason.
"[The Browns] are going to be a sizable favorite to win the AFC North and make the playoffs," Sherman said. "That's the NFL for you. Things change quickly."
New Jersey online sportsbook PointsBet was one of the few sportsbooks that elected not to change the Browns' odds to win the Super Bowl, keeping them at 30-1.
By Wednesday morning, the book's liability on the Browns winning the Super Bowl had grown to around $250,000, "10 times greater than any other team," PointsBet CEO Johnny Aitken told ESPN, adding that he'd rather take bets on Cleveland than the Patriots, Chiefs or Los Angeles Rams.
"We're all right with taking bets on the Browns," Aitken said.
Shashi did his job, (and he did it well) and he was well paid for it. He was never hired to be a football guru, because he was not and never will be.
What can't be denied....the plan worked.
I like John Dorsey and am happy as heck we have him, but he walked in to a sweet deal.
My only beef is a few people seem to feel Depo is some simpleton flunky who is ignored....he isn't, and he isn't. I don't get why that is so hard to accept?
No further comments on it from me because I don't want to carry it on...they can take their shots and then we can carry on with the party.
And only give up the 17th and 132nd selections in the Draft.
We gave up the 95th, not the 132nd. We were supposed to get 132 in exchange for 155 but apparently this is what happened (I think):
Browns, Giants Alter Zeitler/Vernon Trade
March 13th, 2019 at 11:20am CST by Dallas Robinson
When the Browns and Giants agreed to swap guard Kevin Zeitler and defensive end Olivier Vernon earlier this week, the two clubs also decided to trade draft picks: Cleveland was set to give up a fifth-round pick (No. 155) to New York, while Big Blue send a fourth-round pick (No. 132) to the Browns. Now, following the deal that will send Odell Beckham Jr. to Cleveland, the two teams have agreed to revise the Zeitler/Brown trade.
The pick swap will no longer occur, according to Art Stapleton of NorthJersey.com (Twitter link). Instead, Zeitler will simply be traded straight up for Vernon, while OBJ will go to the Browns in a separate move. However, you can look at both swaps together as such: Beckham and Vernon for Zeitler, Peppers, No. 17 overall and No. 95 overall.
It’s unclear as to why the Giants and Browns have reached this agreement. The return for Beckham has been widely panned, so it’s possible the Giants asked for the Vernon/Zeitler pick swap to be eliminated as something of a face-saving move (although undoing a 23-spot drop in the draft probably isn’t worth all that much).
Your not a little Happy are you Ballpeen?? HAHAHAHA... Man, I come into work and EVERYONE is talking about the Browns. Our offense was going to good but now, it should be supercharged!!!
U can slice it, dice it put it in the blender and mix it all together ... i could care less .. when u add it all up ..
WERE ONE SCARY ASS TEAM NOW ....
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo
Especially on O. We still have a few areas on the D. My thinking is corner, but with the new coordinator who is said to play more zone concepts, a cover guy isn't needed as much, so maybe we already have the pieces in place.
It's going to be fun as heck going to the games this year. The only downside is I can see us playing in 3-4 prime time night games. I am not a big fan of those. Well, the Sunday night games are ok. I don't like Thursday and Monday games. I don't like gameday weekends without a game.
Your not a little Happy are you Ballpeen?? HAHAHAHA... Man, I come into work and EVERYONE is talking about the Browns. Our offense was going to good but now, it should be supercharged!!!
Damn right man, and good to see you around. I wear something Browns every day when I go for a walk. I am the Browns guy on the walking path. I got a few nice comments and thumbs-up's on yesterdays walk.
I have always been a proud Browns fan. It's been a long time since I have been both a proud and Happy Browns fan!
I read this article earlier. I will only include the stuff about the Browns. You can click on the link if you want to read the entire article.
Quote:
2019 NFL free agency winners and losers: Steelers stars breaking up
Kevin SeifertNFL Nation
The NFL's three-day negotiating window has grown so efficient that free agency, as we once knew it, is all but over once the market officially opens. At that moment Wednesday, nine of the top 10 members of ESPN's top 100 free agents -- and 17 of the top 20 -- had already committed to a team.
The twist in 2019 was a series of trades that stole the headlines. We included those deals in our initial look at the winners and losers of the NFL's 2019 free-agent frenzy. Let's dive in.
WINNERS Cleveland Browns
We always seem to save a spot here for the team that spent the most and/or made the flashiest moves. But the Browns really are a better team now than they were at the end of the 2018 season, having used trades to supersede a mostly humdrum free-agent class.
They've given quarterback Baker Mayfield one of the game's top playmakers in Odell Beckham Jr. They've fortified an already formidable defensive front by acquiring pass-rusher Olivier Vernon. And at some point, they'll have tailback Kareem Hunt, who signed last month but is expected to serve a suspension for a portion of the season.
New coach Freddie Kitchens will be challenged to meld a bunch of edgy personalities, and there is some franchise inertia still to overcome, but for the first time in a quarter-century, the Browns are legitimate playoff contenders.
LOSERS New York Giants
If the best organizations follow a clear vision, what can we say about the Giants?
A year ago, they were bulking up to make one final run with quarterback Eli Manning, making a series of decisions that included giving Beckham a five-year contract extension. This week, they began a fire sale with Manning still as their quarterback (at least for now). The acquisitions of safety Jabrill Peppers, guard Kevin Zeitler and additional first- and third-round picks in no way compensate for the departures of Collins, Vernon and Beckham.
The Giants now have one of the NFL's least-talented rosters, and hope for improving it is limited by their decision to let Collins walk away (rather than making a trade) and settling for a modest return in the Beckham trade. They don't seem to be following a linear plan and are years late on initiating a succession plan at quarterback. It is as though the Giants -- and general manager Dave Gettleman in particular -- are operating in a long-discarded era of NFL team-building.
AFC North royalty
Either the Steelers or Ravens have won the AFC North in 13 of its 17 seasons in existence. But they both took big hits the past week, while a new competitor emerged before their eyes.
The Steelers capitulated to one of the best players in their recent history, shipping Brown to the Raiders for a return (third- and fifth-round picks) that will make it difficult to even nearly replace his impact. The Ravens, meanwhile, bid farewell to four key players -- Mosley, safety Eric Weddle, linebacker Terrell Suggs and linebacker Za'Darius Smith -- from a defense that carried it to the playoffs last season.
Adam Schefter reports on Earl Thomas' intent to sign a four-year, $55 million deal with the Ravens.
Both the Steelers and Ravens could pick through the remaining market and replenish during the draft. The Ravens already have, to an extent, after agreeing to terms with oft-injured safety Earl Thomas and veteran running back Mark Ingram. But the rise of the Browns as legitimate division contenders, for the first time in a quarter-century, leaves much less room for error.
Yeah, and read what the Giants did w/out OBJ in the lineup as opposed to him being in the lineup.
What amazes me the most is how much the Giants lost financially by giving him that contract and then trading him less than a year later.
This might go down as one of the worst decisions by an NFL team in league history.
IMHO..
Giants are rebuilding, and are trying to acquire draft capital like we did a couple years ago. Which meant parting with some talent.
They know Eli is almost done, and were facing a tough road ahead in that division. So they are starting a little earlier to try to right this ship when they put in Eli's replacement, and build a younger roster.
You should read the articles. They threw money away. Financially incompetent.
I agree, they screwed themselves over. But I don't think it was the plan to start, it was most likely an idea that developed late in the season or off-season.
They surely did not sign OBJ to a new contract knowing they would trade him. I think they were hoping to take 1 more shot at a SB before Eli retired going into last season, but now realize that is a slim chance so are getting a jump on the rebuild.
Here is one of the things I was talking about in case you guys don't want to read all the articles:
Quote:
Less than a year after deciding they wanted Beckham, the Giants have decided he isn't part of their future. In doing so, they've burned all kinds of actual cash and cap space. Let's look at two scenarios. Scenario 1 is what would have happened if they hadn't given him a long-term deal and franchised him for 2019 before making the trade. (Remember, the Giants didn't use their franchise tag this offseason.) Scenario 2 is what actually happened.
Scenario 1: $8.5 million paid to Beckham in cash, $8.5 million on the Giants' 2019 cap, $0 in dead money on the 2019 cap
Scenario 2: $21.5 million paid to Beckham in cash, $5.5 million on the Giants' 2019 cap, $16 million in dead money on the 2019 cap
That's not a typo. Because Gettleman (or ownership) temporarily decided to keep Beckham around, the Giants paid an extra $13 million out of their coffers and will eat $16 million in dead money on this year's cap for the privilege of doing so. This isn't really a big competitive concern since the Giants don't appear to be particularly close to contending in 2019, but it's a sign of how shortsighted the franchise was in signing OBJ before giving things up seven months later.
They just acquired arguably the league's best receiver who is both 26 years old and under contract for five more seasons with an average annual base salary of roughly $14.5 million.
Quote:
New York Giants: F
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The Giants paid Odell Beckham $21.459 million in 2018 as part of his new 5-year $90 million contract. He played 12 games before season-ending quad injury. What a waste of money. If they were going to dump him, they should have traded him last year before signing him.
Last off season when the giants sat @ #2 I thought for sure they would draft a QB. Running backs are nice don't get me wrong but QB's are far and away more impactful and they last a lot longer too. Add to that the Giants of old always did the smart thing even if it didn't work out so well they did what was smart, not any more.
In hindsight this is obviously a organization in deep trouble. You look at what Dorsey did last draft, he found a QB he loved and he took him #1 overall. Why because when you have a chance to get your guy you take him, and when it comes to QB's you buy at full price. If I were the Giants I would package the Browns pick and there pick and move to the top of the draft. Why because thats the smart thing to do. At this point I would bet they don't! Teams that settle on @QB's and take RB's when their in a spot to get one all while knowing they need a QB, are idiots.
As for the Browns they added the pieces to put this team over the top, now they have to turn potential into wins. My bet is they do just that. Why ? Because Dorsey does whats smart, its just that simple. Even if the entire thing blows up in our faces this was the smart thing IMO.
They just acquired arguably the league's best receiver who is both 26 years old and under contract for five more seasons with an average annual base salary of roughly $14.5 million.
$14.5M is not that much more than what Funchess is getting this year ($13M).
I think Dorsey convinced Gettleman that the Giants had no hope for the future unless they stripped things down and loaded up with enough ammo to draft their QB.
5-11 / 3-13 / 11-5 (with an early exit)/ 6-10 / 6-10 / 7-9 / 9-7... That's the last seven years since their Superbowl victory.
He told him he was there to help... And look how quickly things change when you draft the next Mayfield. The proof is in the pudding. Dorsey explained that the roles could be reversed in a couple short years and Gettleman could be flush with cash signing HOF talent... but not before he found his QB.
Gettleman sat on the fence and Dorsey was patient for a while until finally telling him he was going to move on. Anyone notice how the OBJ was done withing two hours or so of Perriman signing?
I see it a little bit differently than you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but just hear me out.
Only looking at the financial side... it's definitely a huge win for Dorsey and the Browns. No two ways about it. I don't think it's so much of a loss for the Giants, though. They're not contending, and they're not going to be contending for anything as the last of OBJ's contract works its way through their system. If you want to hammer on the Giants, hammer on them for signing him to that contract when there was a chance he would be sent out of town (hindsight, but still). I mean, it's not like Dorsey handed Gettleman a blank check. Yes, we gave them a mid-round first and a third and Peppers. That doesn't add up to OBJ, the more I think about it, and it doesn't even add up to 2 1st's like the Giants were saying before. As someone stated earlier, if you had a crystal ball and saw Peppers' career up until now, where would you draft him? I'm not sure he'd be off the board before the end of the third round. SS's are a dime a dozen, and he's only now just starting to get it. He's good, but there are other good SS's to be had, and there are physical freaks with the potential to learn the position that can be had super duper cheap.
It's splitting hairs, but I don't hang the trade on the Giants as this major fail. The decision to hand him the contract was a fail, and they decided they were going to eat the consequences of that now before they potentially made it worse.
I am still so high from this trade I won't come down till the season opener.
Still in awe how a team can be transformed from 1-31 to what this team looks like today.
OBJ is a perfect fit into this offense. Baker is a very accurate thrower to all parts of the field. Landry is is a get open guy underneath. Callaway has shown he can be a threat anywhere on the field. Njoku is a seam guy and a nightmare cover because of his length. Plus there is depth.
We have incredible runners in Chubb, Duke, and Hunt.
We have no glaring needs other than building roster depth. Between now and the end of the draft Dorsey will address what else we need.
One of the best parts of this is that the Giants' cap hit for OBJ was $4 million/year more than it is for us. (because of his signing bonus allocation)
If he really makes a lot of noise about a bump, we could bump him $2 million/year and still have him at a lower cap hit than the Giants did.
I like the trade here. It's a good deal for the Browns, for all the reasons we've gone over here. That said, I think people are unnecessarily piling on Gettleman. He's taking a beating in the media.
A trade doesn't have to be a win for one side and a loss for another. A trade can be a win for both sides. Take the initial swap of Zeitler for Vernon (plus moving up one pick for the Browns). I'm not trying to judge the value of each player so much as point out that the Browns were deep on the interior line, yet clearly wanted an upgrade at starting DE opposite of Myles Garrett. The swap kind of makes sense, doesn't it?
If you're just trying to fleece teams then stuff like this doesn't happen.. big part of why player trades are so rare in the NFL. Everybody overvalues their own players and undervalues other teams' players.
Beckham... the Browns are obviously going for it this year. The Giants are not. They're tired of dealing with the drama and probably didn't want that to get worse.. especially with probably drafting a QB this year or maybe next (they are going to, right?)
We gave up a 1, 3, and Peppers... that is not a small price to pay. Not too long ago we were talking about how much improved Peppers was, #19 rated safety according to PFF on a cheap rookie deal, and so on. How fast opinions change that he's now just a throw in to the deal.
About the contract-- media is obviously very shortsighted and look at the cap hit this year. There are ways to shuffle money from one year to another, so taking a big cap hit in one year is not that big of a deal. Need cap space in the current year? Offer to convert part of a player's salary into a signing bonus (which defers over multiple years). The players gets their cash now, the team pushes most of the cap hit to future years.
It's really the cash payout that matters here. Going by the article, OBJ got an extra 13 million last season... but also was signed for extra years. That contract is part of why the Giants were able to get the 1, 3, and Peppers.. without it, the haul would have been less. Not saying its ideal from the Giants perspective but these things are hard to judge in a vacuum.
About Barkley vs a QB: different situation but it involves Gettleman so it might as well go here. I understand the difference in importance between a QB and RB, believe me. I thought for sure the Giants would either draft a QB at #2 last year or trade to a team that would. The Barkley pick shocked me, because the QB is so important and it's been obvious for a long time that they need to move on from Eli.
That said.. Barkley was the right pick, wasn't it? He was one of the best and most explosive backs in the league last year. In hindsight, What QB (other than Baker Mayfield who wasn't available at #2), would you take last year at #2? What have the other QBs drafted last year shown that you'd rather have one of them instead of taking an elite back and seeing what you can get at QB in free agency or the next (i.e. this) draft?
I think you might be surprised by the transformation between now and opening day because I don't think Dorsey is done. I think he'll be working to improve the LBs and secondary, might add another DT, and maybe even tweak the O-line before camp starts. By the time camp is over we could be scary good and the only thing we'll have to worry about is the target on our back.
Here is one of the things I was talking about in case you guys don't want to read all the articles:
Quote:
Less than a year after deciding they wanted Beckham, the Giants have decided he isn't part of their future. In doing so, they've burned all kinds of actual cash and cap space. Let's look at two scenarios. Scenario 1 is what would have happened if they hadn't given him a long-term deal and franchised him for 2019 before making the trade. (Remember, the Giants didn't use their franchise tag this offseason.) Scenario 2 is what actually happened.
Scenario 1: $8.5 million paid to Beckham in cash, $8.5 million on the Giants' 2019 cap, $0 in dead money on the 2019 cap
Scenario 2: $21.5 million paid to Beckham in cash, $5.5 million on the Giants' 2019 cap, $16 million in dead money on the 2019 cap
That's not a typo. Because Gettleman (or ownership) temporarily decided to keep Beckham around, the Giants paid an extra $13 million out of their coffers and will eat $16 million in dead money on this year's cap for the privilege of doing so. This isn't really a big competitive concern since the Giants don't appear to be particularly close to contending in 2019, but it's a sign of how shortsighted the franchise was in signing OBJ before giving things up seven months later.
Honestly, I think a lot of it boils down to the relationship between OBJ and the Giants organization. Did OBJ pull an AB and force his way out? If he did, he did it a lot smarter and kept it behind closed doors.
In the end, the trade kind of resembles what we did with Osweiller from a money for picks perspective. Yes, they lose OBJ, but what were they doing with him? Eli's not going to get better. They have lots of holes. If they hadn't signed him, and he left, they'd get a 3rd at best. This way they get a higher 3rd and "bought" a first.
Yeah, I don't know. Hard to try to make sense of it from the Giants perspective.
Gettleman is getting ripped...and rightfully so. People feel the Browns got the better of him in 2 deals (now 1) but especially on the return for OBJ. Not only that...the $$$ they are losing from the whole OBJ thing is just CRAZY. They rip on him for letting Landon Collins walk. They are ripping on him for tendering Corey Coleman and paying him 4.4 Mil a year.They are ripping him for grabbing Saquan Barkley instead of a QB. For keeping Eli and losing OBJ...
something could be said for each of these moves on Gettleman's side...But when taking it all together???? Not to mention. If he moves up for Haskins or Murray he better be right on whichever it is. And he better be right for moving up in the first place. Because it will still be costly and many think he can sit tight and get Haskins at 6.
It is one thing to criticize the guy for one move. But the laundry list is long and not very shiny...
Letting players like Schwartz walk and signing Kenny Britt and trading up for Kizer were BRILLIANT MOVES ...
Once again ... your butts doing the talking ... *L* ..
Well I took lessons from Jim Carrey so I'm fluent in Butt talk..
Don't forget in the first draft that DePodesta was with us he said that he would sit back and watch so that he can familiarize himself. Oh he would provide Analytic information needed but he would stay out of the actually Picking decisions.
Now there is some thought that Depodesta has more power than all are thinking he has. Most of that comes from the fact that Dorsey had told Haley he was the guy to become HC if Hue was fired. Of course as it turns out Haley was fired and Williams became that interim HC. I think Dorsey just changed his mind because of the actions of Haley. I think Haley was sabotaging a bit so that Hue could get fired. He ended up burning his own bridge and I don't think he will be hired again for quite a while.
But I do think Dorsey respect Depodesta and more important I think the HASLAMS respect Depodesta. Dorsey is making the final decisions but he is listening hard to what Depodesta is feeding him. He just puts his Football input into the equations. We got a good Duo going on here.
jmho its no coincidence. Baker is an analytic dream but we also know Dorsey researched no other QB more than Baker Mayfield after being fired by the Chiefs.
They are ripping him for grabbing Saquan Barkley instead of a QB. For keeping Eli and losing OBJ...
The funny thing there is. if he passes on Saquan, and take say, Darnold. Then the Jets probably take Rosen or Allen, and we would have take Saquon. So instead of Baker and OBJ, we would have Baker and Saquan.
... and Giants fans probably would of ripped him for that.
About the OBJ deal: if the Browns got such an incredible steal, why didn't other teams offer more? I assume Gettleman listened to offers from other teams, and the Browns made the best offer. Or at least the best offer of AFC teams... sometimes teams take a little less to ship a player out of conference. Scratch off the Jets too.. those two teams don't make deals.
Why didn't the other teams make a bigger offer?
I'm not saying it's a bad trade from either side. I actually think it was a fair deal. The Browns get an elite receiver who is only 26 years old, but also gave up a decent amount and take on some risk (distractions, contract disputes, injury) that probably put off some other teams.
You could say a similar thing about Vernon.. the risk there mainly being injury-related as he's missed some time the last two years. We gave up a very good player in Zeitler who has played every game for more than four straight years. I know that nobody cares about guards anymore but that reliability (and elite pass protection) has to mean something. Again.. fair deal, you have to give up something to get something.
I think cap space and AFC teams played a big part. Most teams weren't in a position to throw that kind of cash around like we could. Had we not have had the cap space to address DT, DE and sign OBJ, I don't think we would have been players either. We had needs as most teams do. There aren't many teams that can afford to address their glaring needs and have the luxury of signing a player like OBJ too. That certainly limits the competition.
There is no defense of what the Giants did. They front-loaded quite a bit of that contract. What was it? $21 million or something like that. They then trade him less than a year later. They now have a ton of dead cap money and the Browns are only paying OBJ $14.5, if the reports are correct.
Gettleman's only defense is if the Mara's [who are terribly conservative] wanted OBJ out of town, because no way is signing him to a big contract, paying him that much up-front, and taking on all that dead cap money makes any sense from a financial aspect. In fact, it is an epic fail.
Then, you combine in the on-field value of what we got and what they received in return and it's quite clear that Dorsey spanked the Giants.
For years, Brown's fans have complained about the National Media hating on us and loving big-market teams like New York. Well folks, John Freaking Dorsey has turned that notion on its heels. The Browns are receiving glowing reports and the Giants are getting shredded.
The Giants made the best out of a bad situation. They ate $16 million in dead money this year, but got a 1, 3, and Peppers out of it. It's not like $16 million in dead money, for one season, is going to cripple a franchise. We ate like $20 million on the Osweiler contract and we seem to be doing just fine.
The Browns and Giants are in different stages of team-building. The Browns are loading up to win now. The Giants need to get younger, accumulate some picks, and free up future cap space.
There's also probably a difference of opinion on how to build a team with the Browns loading up on premier, blue-chip talent while hoping the infrastructure in place (Baker, coaching staff, etc.) can keep it all in check whereas the Giants, conservative as they may be, seem to really want to eliminate distractions.
Again being in different stages of team-building comes into play here-- they are probably going to draft a QB this year or next, and that's quite a bit different of a situation than having an established QB like Mayfield (or as established as a player can be going into his second year.. that guy commands so much respect though so I have no hesitation in calling him established.)
To be clear, I'm not criticizing the Browns in any of this. I love what the Browns are doing. They've been in a great situation in regards to cap/draft picks and Dorsey has taken advantage of it. This is the second off-season in a row he's added some great players to this team.
I'm just trying to see the other side of it. The Giants have done plenty of head-scratching things (*ahem* Pat Shurmur) but the OBJ situation is reasonable enough. Like I wrote above, I think they're trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Remember that Gettleman was the pro personnel director of the Giants when they won those 2 Super Bowls. He took the Panthers to the Super Bowl as GM of that team. As a scout for the Bills and Broncos, those teams made it to the Super Bowl while he worked there or soon after, presumably with some players he advocated for. I think the guy knows how to build a football team.
It's not like he walked into a dream situation there-- he took over a depleted roster, with an old, mediocre QB and without a war chest of picks and cap space to work with. He's made a few missteps along the way but give him some time.
I'm not saying it's perfect, it may be a little too old-school for the modern game, who knows, maybe it's just a different philosophy. That said, the guy's been around for a while, his teams have had a lot of success and it's not because he's an idiot. The talking heads in the media, on the other hand..
"So many mixed emotions and feelings," Beckham wrote on Instagram on Thursday morning. "This is all, a lot to process but it is reality. I don't kno (sic) exactly what to say so just gotta keep it real and short. I want to thank the NY Giants organization for giving me an opportunity to do what God put me on this earth to do, I want to thank the organization and the owners for everything and especially giving me my first chance to be a part of the NFL.
"I want thank everyone in that building from the kitchen staff to my main man Jose! I loved you guys dearly and always will. I gave u my all every Sunday. To the fans, some happy, some not, I just wanna thank u guys for making my experience in NY SOMETHIN I'LL NEVER FORGET! To the New Yorkers and REAL NYG fans... you guys will always have a place in my heart, a beautiful city ... a beautiful place. Thank You for every last moment and experience. Without them, I wouldn't be exactly who I am today ! LUV"
I wanna tie this into Vers' and Pit's mini-convo about respect in the media. When I saw that was from NFL Update, I was expecting something about how we're all a bunch of losers to get this excited when just getting a player. Now we "love football". I get that respect is earned and all that. But we didn't earn a portion of the grief we got, and we haven't earned all that much of the love we're getting now.
Beckham, too, is known for his work ethic. I haven’t seen him in practice as much as Brown in the past year or so, but the last time I talked to him, we talked about how he was rearranging his entire life by pretending to be left-handed because he thought that’d help his catch radius. He was brushing his teeth with his left hand. To catch better.
Hey oober. I don't think the national media has been bashing Brown's fans. In fact, they have always said that we deserve better and our some of the most loyal and best fans around.
They did bash the organization and rightfully so. This team has been a mess since it came back right up until Dorsey took over. We finally have a great leader and the national media is taking notice.
Can I react to this trade the way I want to, it's been near 48 hours now.
I don't like it, not in the least unless from the Giants perspective.
By the way, Perriman is Gone, since OBJ came in.
One day after they were about to re sign him.
This trade only looks good if Odell Beckham plays really well, and I'm not saying he won't, but I Don't think he makes the team that much better.
I'm not happy about losing that first round pick.
A first rounder alone, may have been the price for Odell, in my mind, maybe, if it was something you wanted to do, but I'm not a fan of ODBJ so much either way.
I know he's famous, he's a big name, there've been some mentions of personality conflicts like he may have a selfish view, nothing wrong with that, but unless it starts to make the teamwork, collectively suffer, or if other guys get upset about it.
In 2018, the Browns defense often gained momentum when or after Jabrill Peppers showed up by making impactful plays, I can't fault that.
Williams is out, and New coaches are in, so, as we've seen at least 9 times before, (no exaggeration),
we know what happens, the roster shuffles, (as it is), and ...
Well I think we are slightly robbed of seeing what would have happened if the 2018 guys came back and we had an offseason of development and maturity to see what would become of it.
I'm not happy about losing the 3rd round pick, again, it's all contingent on ODBJ still playing really well Here, as he did There. And by saying Really Well, that means like top, top, top level, maybe top 10 league wide, or moreso, if he isn't Top 7 of WR's league wide, And that's a lot to ask for, but I feel that's where he is and I can say, (emm, maybe the trade made sense, from a Browns perspective)
And then to do that???
What about Callaway, Where is Higgans, don't forget Landry, don't want to take away from their targets.
or seeing them blossom after another year to work together.
It's useless to poo poo the trade, because I can't, NOBODY can undo it
But I don't like it. And I don't like what it means of the Browns young players from the last 3 years getting umm
Well it's a rebuild It's a rebuild
It's another freaking rebuild. Even after finishing 5-3 another complted rebuild, Free agents wise, seasoned guys, ok, that's good,
But the Browns rebuilded, ALMOST EVERY YEAR, and they almost finished last in the division Almost everytime too. Since 2006, ish, is there a pattern.
well just hope for, just hope for good results,
I wonder if this team will ever sitck with a plan long enough to see what happens, I count the latest plan started yesterday, the previous latest plan started on or around week 8 of last season, is this, is this a pattern that's gonna win a Super Bowl.
Hope for the best, what am I rooting for? I'm rooting for the Browns to win a Super Bowl, and to do it in my lifetime and before it becomes all flag football in 30-35 years or so and completely meaningless.
I drove by a (flag football youth sign-up) sign, the other day, and it hit me, that's how they're going to kll the NFL, from the youth up,
They'll just come out one day and say, nobody plays regular football at the grade school level, anywhere in the USA, anymore, and as those children age, they'll play only flag football, high school, college, and professional. They'll call it safety.
If, (big IF), If that happens, will I be able to see the Browns win anything meaningful before then.
Can I react to this trade the way I want to, it's been near 48 hours now.
I don't like it, not in the least unless from the Giants perspective.
By the way, Perriman is Gone, since OBJ came in.
One day after they were about to re sign him.
This trade only looks good if Odell Beckham plays really well, and I'm not saying he won't, but I Don't think he makes the team that much better.
I'm not happy about losing that first round pick.
A first rounder alone, may have been the price for Odell, in my mind, maybe, if it was something you wanted to do, but I'm not a fan of ODBJ so much either way.
I know he's famous, he's a big name, there've been some mentions of personality conflicts like he may have a selfish view, nothing wrong with that, but unless it starts to make the teamwork, collectively suffer, or if other guys get upset about it.
In 2018, the Browns defense often gained momentum when or after Jabrill Peppers showed up by making impactful plays, I can't fault that.
Williams is out, and New coaches are in, so, as we've seen at least 9 times before, (no exaggeration),
we know what happens, the roster shuffles, (as it is), and ...
Well I think we are slightly robbed of seeing what would have happened if the 2018 guys came back and we had an offseason of development and maturity to see what would become of it.
I'm not happy about losing the 3rd round pick, again, it's all contingent on ODBJ still playing really well Here, as he did There. And by saying Really Well, that means like top, top, top level, maybe top 10 league wide, or moreso, if he isn't Top 7 of WR's league wide, And that's a lot to ask for, but I feel that's where he is and I can say, (emm, maybe the trade made sense, from a Browns perspective)
And then to do that???
What about Callaway, Where is Higgans, don't forget Landry, don't want to take away from their targets.
or seeing them blossom after another year to work together.
I don't think OBJ is selfish or a bad teammate. I just think he was extremely frustrated. The Giants were losing and every other pass "to him" was uncatchable. Plus, his teammates seem to like him.
I do have a miniscule worry if we struggle out of the gate, but Eli is pretty washed-up, particularly when he's behind a bad OL. Our roster looks pretty imposing on paper.
I also think you may be underestimating how much teams rolling coverages towards OBJ and having to keep safeties deep can help the other receivers (and RBs) somewhat.
I know Dorsey's been pretty spot on with his picks, but he's bound to miss sooner or later. OBJ would seem to be a pretty sure thing. He has shown he can "dominate" in the league. Losing 17 stings a bit, but it looks like the truly elite prospects on the DL will possibly be gone before then. No offensive skill player looks to be better in the entire draft. Some good ones probably, but not quite on his level, and we're already a young team.
I'm not saying there aren't reasons for doubt, but there are also reasons one could be optimistic.
Can I react to this trade the way I want to, it's been near 48 hours now.
I don't like it, not in the least unless from the Giants perspective.
By the way, Perriman is Gone, since OBJ came in.
One day after they were about to re sign him.
This trade only looks good if Odell Beckham plays really well, and I'm not saying he won't, but I Don't think he makes the team that much better.
I'm not happy about losing that first round pick.
A first rounder alone, may have been the price for Odell, in my mind, maybe, if it was something you wanted to do, but I'm not a fan of ODBJ so much either way.
I know he's famous, he's a big name, there've been some mentions of personality conflicts like he may have a selfish view, nothing wrong with that, but unless it starts to make the teamwork, collectively suffer, or if other guys get upset about it.
In 2018, the Browns defense often gained momentum when or after Jabrill Peppers showed up by making impactful plays, I can't fault that.
Williams is out, and New coaches are in, so, as we've seen at least 9 times before, (no exaggeration),
we know what happens, the roster shuffles, (as it is), and ...
Well I think we are slightly robbed of seeing what would have happened if the 2018 guys came back and we had an offseason of development and maturity to see what would become of it.
I'm not happy about losing the 3rd round pick, again, it's all contingent on ODBJ still playing really well Here, as he did There. And by saying Really Well, that means like top, top, top level, maybe top 10 league wide, or moreso, if he isn't Top 7 of WR's league wide, And that's a lot to ask for, but I feel that's where he is and I can say, (emm, maybe the trade made sense, from a Browns perspective)
And then to do that???
What about Callaway, Where is Higgans, don't forget Landry, don't want to take away from their targets.
or seeing them blossom after another year to work together.
It's useless to poo poo the trade, because I can't, NOBODY can undo it
But I don't like it. And I don't like what it means of the Browns young players from the last 3 years getting umm
Well it's a rebuild It's a rebuild
It's another freaking rebuild. Even after finishing 5-3 another complted rebuild, Free agents wise, seasoned guys, ok, that's good,
But the Browns rebuilded, ALMOST EVERY YEAR, and they almost finished last in the division Almost everytime too. Since 2006, ish, is there a pattern.
well just hope for, just hope for good results,
I wonder if this team will ever sitck with a plan long enough to see what happens, I count the latest plan started yesterday, the previous latest plan started on or around week 8 of last season, is this, is this a pattern that's gonna win a Super Bowl.
Hope for the best, what am I rooting for? I'm rooting for the Browns to win a Super Bowl, and to do it in my lifetime and before it becomes all flag football in 30-35 years or so and completely meaningless.
I drove by a (flag football youth sign-up) sign, the other day, and it hit me, that's how they're going to kll the NFL, from the youth up,
They'll just come out one day and say, nobody plays regular football at the grade school level, anywhere in the USA, anymore, and as those children age, they'll play only flag football, high school, college, and professional. They'll call it safety.
If, (big IF), If that happens, will I be able to see the Browns win anything meaningful before then.
I probably won't live that long anyhow.
Umm .... OK.
I am really not sure if you believe the stuff you post, or if you just post it to get a rise out of others?
Hell, I'd just gotten home a few hours earlier from having surgery at the Clinic, I laid down in bed to watch NCIS and it came across the bottom of the screen....I jumped out of bed and started yelling... I'm guessing my wife thought something happened to me.. She didn't appear to be happy.
Winning changes everything, and one of the easiest things to change is OBJ's attitude.
It sucks to be a great player on a terrible team, and when you are a diva, there will be drama.
Odell is a diva... no doubt... but a great player.
Well he's got another big personality throwing him the ball. So that will be entertaining at least. I don't see Beckham as a head case like Randy Moss. From some accounts I've read Beckham is just really driven and into making himself the greatest receiver to ever play the game. When you're QB in NY is fading into the sunset that is kinda difficult. Oh, and he loves to self-promote on social media which should be all sorts of entertaining if we're winning.
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser." - Woody Hayes
Went to Kroger and CVS this morning. Living so close to Nashville the population around here comes from all over the country. Naturally I was wearing some of my Browns gear as always.
Since Baker helped turn things around in the second half of the season I've been getting positive comments from other shoppers. But let me say with OBJ coming to the Browns it's gone to an entire new level.
I understand why. I mean the guy is on every highlight reel every week of the season. The media has him plastered everywhere so every NFL fan in the country knows who he is.
But still, when all is said and done, it's sure nice to have so many people taking stock in the fact that we're coming into our own. A pleasant change of pace indeed.
Odell Beckham Jr.: 5 reasons Browns GM John Dorsey is confident he won't be a problem
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com | Posted March 14, 2019 at 06:15 PM | Updated March 15, 2019 at 06:12 AM
CLEVELAND, Ohio — One team’s diva receiver is another team’s ticket to the Super Bowl, and Browns GM John Dorsey never hesitated to try to land Odell Beckham, who was considered difficult in New York.
“I know Odell is very passionate, I know he’s competitive and I know he can help this football team,’’ Dorsey said. “If you can get the chance to acquire a guy like that, you know what? Take a shot at him.”
Dorsey rocked the NFL world on Tuesday night when he acquired the three-time Pro Bowler from the Giants for their No. 17 overall pick, their No. 95 pick in the third round and safety Jabrill Peppers. Later, the Browns and Giants rolled the Kevin Zeitler for Olivier Vernon trade into this deal for a mega-trade designed to catapult the Browns into a Super Bowl sooner than later.
But first, the Browns must make sure that Beckham isn’t the distraction that he was in New York last season, where one source told Ralph Vacchiano of SNY.TV that he was a ‘pain in ass.’ But Dorsey believes Cleveland has the infrastructure to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Here are five reasons why.
1. Baker Mayfield Mayfield is 23 but leads more like he's 32, and behaves more like a seasoned vet than a second-year pro.
At the end of last year, he told his teammates to play hard or go home, and summoned the fans to come out in full force for home finale against the Bengals.
Dorsey has no qualms about Mayfield handling Beckham, who's become a friend of the QB.
"With Baker, he showed last year that he can step up to certain challenges,'' said Dorsey. "The object of this thing is to surround him with as many good football players as you possibly can. It seems like Odell and Baker have a relationship formed. I am not sure where it formed, but they tell me that they have a relationship and that it is a good relationship. I am excited to see what the whole bunch can do."
Mayfield and Beckham worked out together at USC last offseason, and have remained in close contact. They've dined together as recently as January in Los Angeles, where Mayfield is living this offseason, and at the Greater Cleveland Sports Awards in February, Mayfield acknowledged that he wouldn't turn Beckham away.
"Good friends,'' Mayfield said of his dinner with Beckham and Broncos pass-rusher Von Miller. "I've become close with Odell because he plays with, obviously, Sterling Shepard I played with in college, so he introduced us and I become close with him."
Beckham's biggest beef last season seemed to be that Eli Manning wasn't getting him the ball deep and maximizing his talents.
That won't be a problem with Mayfield, who can get him the ball anywhere on the field.
2. His BFF Jarvis Landry Remember Landry's famous "contagious" speech on Hard Knocks last season? His good friend and former LSU teammate Beckham already has the bug, and the two will push each other hard. Their work ethic is off-the-charts.
If all goes as planned, they might even be able to forge Hall of Fame careers here together, and the one-handed catch competition in training camp this summer will be epic.
Over three seasons together at LSU, Landry and Beckham combined for 280 receptions, 4,149 yards and 29 touchdowns.
Landry has been lobbying for Beckham since last summer, and he wants him for one reason: to win a Super Bowl. Will there be some fireworks? You can bet on it.
But the on-field production will be worth it.
"I know that they are best of friends,'' said Dorsey. "They are very competitive with each other. I heard (former LSU and Kansas head coach) Les Miles talk (on 92.3 The Fan) about how those two would drive each other and push each other when they were at LSU to compete. I think it can only help each other because that competition brings out the best in any athlete, regardless of the sport."
3. WR coach Adam Henry Dorsey readily admitted that having Beckham's former LSU and Giants receivers coach in the same capacity here was a big factor. In fact, it may have been part of the reason Henry was one of only two Hue Jackson staffers to survive, including secondary coach DeWayne Walker.
"It helps to have his college position coach on your staff," Dorsey said.
Beckham and Landry loved playing for Henry at LSU, and that extended to New York for Beckham, where he played for Henry in 2016-17. In 2016, Beckham caught a career-high 101 passes for 1,367 yards and 10 TDs, but suffered a fractured ankle the following season and missed the final 12 games.
Henry, who has a way with flamboyant receivers, joked last summer that he should hang a psychologist shingle outside his office.
"Being at LSU, then coming back to the pros has really helped me with the whole recruiting and how guys are,'' he said. "I have a master's in education and structural technology. Just kind of adapting to the way that guys are and understanding that everybody is different, but you have to meet them at where they are and kind of reach them.
"It's more of a peer inspiration than that as a coach. It's more interactive. Really, the group polices themselves.''
Henry should be able to get the most out of Beckham.
4. Freddie Kitchens Kitchens' coaching style is to let players be who are they are, as evidenced by his support of Mayfield's anti-Hue Jackson gestures last season. But he's also not afraid to get in a player's face, which he did with Mayfield in the loss to Houston after three first-half interceptions.
Kitchens comes off as an aw-shucks guy, but that's deceiving. He chews players out when he needs to and won't hesitate to do so with Beckham or anyone else.
"Freddie is one of those individuals who I love because he's so straightforward and honest,'' said Dorsey. "He's direct. He's going to set expectations high. There's that accountability level. He'll make players be accountable. He's the same guy every day. Players respect him, and they respect that type of approach.'
5. The rest of the staff The Browns have loaded up on strong personalities and players with baggage, including running back Kareem Hunt, and Dorsey knows it will take a village to coach them. The Browns will support them organizationally. Dorsey gets to know his players well, and will help make sure they're on the right track.
He also knows that Kitchens is a first-time head coach and will need some assistance. That's why Dorsey has helped him assemble a strong staff including offensive coordinator Todd Monken, defensive coordinator Steve Wilks, special teams coordinator Mike Priefer and associate head coach/offensive line coach James Campen.
Went to Kroger and CVS this morning. Living so close to Nashville the population around here comes from all over the country. Naturally I was wearing some of my Browns gear as always.
Since Baker helped turn things around in the second half of the season I've been getting positive comments from other shoppers. But let me say with OBJ coming to the Browns it's gone to an entire new level.
I understand why. I mean the guy is on every highlight reel every week of the season. The media has him plastered everywhere so every NFL fan in the country knows who he is.
But still, when all is said and done, it's sure nice to have so many people taking stock in the fact that we're coming into our own. A pleasant change of pace indeed.
OK, whether or not you win or not has nothing to do with if it is a rebuild. It's whether you keep your team together or not.
Now, have they made changes since the 2nd half of last season, we could go spot for spot and see if it qualifies in each others minds as a re-build, but we already all know what the Browns have done, and y'all called me anything but sane in the above posts, I'll just say I see enough changes "again" to say I'll call it another rebuild. You guys can call it what you want.
OK, whether or not you win or not has nothing to do with if it is a rebuild. It's whether you keep your team together or not.
Now, have they made changes since the 2nd half of last season, we could go spot for spot and see if it qualifies in each others minds as a re-build, but we already all know what the Browns have done, and y'all called me anything but sane in the above posts, I'll just say I see enough changes "again" to say I'll call it another rebuild. You guys can call it what you want.
I like you and your posts, but just so you know, your definition of a rebuild means the Patriots are rebuilding every year. It seems as though it's working out for them, so I probably wouldn't worry so much about the "roster turnover." We are going to be fine and probably be in the playoffs for the first time in 17 years.
But still, when all is said and done, it's sure nice to have so many people taking stock in the fact that we're coming into our own. A pleasant change of pace indeed.
Yes, it is. I have also found a very subtle, yet effective way to put a finer point on it when I get folks up in my face.
I'm happy to see Browns get new love / young fans/infatuateds jumping on the wagon, but I'm still an ambassador for the longevity of Browns Fandom. Read the following exchange. It happened 2-3 days ago, at a local store.
"Hey- Browns fan! Sure is cool to see your team getting some love-" "Yeah it is, BUT- they've always had the love. I'm a 3rd generation Browns fan. We go all the way back to The Beginning. But I'm happy for you... we are fun now." "Uh- OK..."
I've had a few others, too... and I always find a way to manipulate the conversation back to the most important point: Welcome to My World. Feel free to join at this late date, but please remember this: YOU ONLY GET TO SIGN ON AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT. I AM AN ORIGINAL GANGSTA.
BOOM.
Here's my attitude. It goes all the way back to the original board when I started writing all my 'casual fan op-eds.' You remember- the ones I wrote to introduce myself to the community? I remember making this prediction:
"From 'The Drive,' 'The Fumble,' 'The Departure,' 'The Return' and everything else that Browns Fans have suffered, will come this Truth: when the Cleveland Browns (and their fans) finally win the championship, they will be the stars in the most compelling story of triumph over adversity in all of NFL lore "
Gotta admit: "Riches/Decline/Bump/Bottom/Wilderness/Rags/Redemption/Riches" is one helluva story arc.
Books will be written. Pluto will write one. I will pre-order it. An entire display dedicated to The Cleveland Browns Story will be added to Canton.
Because the NFL championship trophy ceremony will be the first and only one of its kind to celebrate:
1. a team named after the Greatest NFL Head Coach of All Time... 2. ... taking possession of a trophy... 3. ... named after the second Greatest NFL Head Coach of all time.
I will enjoy my wry, ironic, understated smile/smirk when that day drops.
The rest of the world suddenly considers the Browns have arrived, as evidenced by the Vegas odds makers. And there is no doubt OBJ makes the Browns a better team. But I think the improvement he brings isn't as huge as the outside world perceives. I think we were much better than many realized before the trade. We saw it, but most of the rest of the world didn't.
I have to admit I'm not as eloquent in my speaking as you are. So my way of displaying how long I've been a Browns fan is far more simplistic. It goes something like this....
"Oh, so you're a browns fan?"
"Yes, since I was this big."
At which time I put my hand out showing the height of a small child. I'm 60 now and have been a browns fan ever since I can remember. My grandpa was a Browns fan and he died when I was quite young. I was left to carry on that tradition.
Didn't get a chance to post about the trade until now, been really busy with work and everything..
Pretty crazy that a superstar athlete is leaving New York City for Cleveland, a superstar athlete about to be going into their prime mind you. I get that it was a trade, but I think it was pretty clear that OBJ wants to play in Cleveland. The butthurt from NY fans as well as certain national media people has been amazing. Cry me a river. Sucks when it's you left holding the bag. At least you get a draft pick out of it.
Sad to see Jabril Peppers go. I really thought he was starting to come around. The second half of last season he really looked like an AFCN safety.
OBJ is special though. I have no problem with them doing what they could to bring in a talent like that. Baker Mayfield must be counting the seconds until training camp arrives. He's got weapons all over the place.
I get that a team that looks great on paper doesn't always translate on the field. There is still a schematic side of the game where preparation and discipline play in as much as talent level, but man, looking at this offense, it's got potential to be terrifying.
I can't wait to see NEO steeler "fans" start brainstorming their excuses for coming back. I hope they all get called out for it. You can go ahead and stay on that side. I hope we beat them by 50 in both games next year. Screw them and their fans.
I cannot wait for the season to start. I'm not one to hope the summer flies by, but once it's over we will be staring at the most anticipated Browns season in some time.
We're all kinda joking and it is fun to do so. I will say that the mindset of these young fellas is going to be huge in regards to our success or lack thereof.
My son and his friends were over this afternoon and they are all Steeler fans. So is my wife. Their argument is that the Browns might implode due to the all the strong personalities. Baker, OBJ, Landry. I argued against that because I said they are all similar dudes who will get along.
I do think that these young dudes are going to have to mature a lot and become true professionals if we are to reach the lofty heighs many of us expect.
I am super excited, but will also hold my breath until the wins truly start stacking up. As a lover of the World Cup, I can't tell you how many on paper "amazing, star studded" teams have entered the WC as clear favorites and then bottomed out. Before they eventually won it Spain often looked amazing on paper, but were perennial underachievers. But, other National teams that looked amazing on paper and then underperformed in the WC are: Italy, Germany, Argentina, Portugal, Brazil. This list goes on. I know, I know...different sport and perhaps not a fair comparison. But, the point being...let's not get too far ahead of ourselves and our fanbases (and owners) own desperate expectations and hope.
There is work to do and much to prove. BUT...can't tell you how exciting it is.
Their argument is that the Browns might implode due to the all the strong personalities. Baker, OBJ, Landry...
Given that they're Steeler fans, I can see why they'd think this. BUT...Baker, Landry and OBJ aren't Ben, Antonio and Le'veon. And Kitchens definitely isn't Tomlin. Kitchens is the key to everything working out.
My wife is from Western PA and had season tix for the Steelers long before we met.
Wow!! Thanks for sharing... my mom is a huge football fan... wish m wife was more into it... she enjoys going to games but doesn't really get into football... that's petty cool about your wife
We're all kinda joking and it is fun to do so. I will say that the mindset of these young fellas is going to be huge in regards to our success or lack thereof.
No truer words have been spoken since this all went down.
I've gone through the "seven stages of shock". Was a little disappointed with what the OBJ deal took away from us - the ability to identify top defensive talent in the draft.
What we gave up for a HOF trajectory seems to fit well with a QB that looks the part. Add in Landry and it's evident this three-headed-monster will either make or break us.
Jarvis said it just a few weeks ago. "Get your head right and come to the land". If these guys keep their heads screwed on... and work... special things can happen sooner rather than later.
I would say at this point the hope that we'll implode is the only hope Steelers fans have. They can see the team that Dorsey is putting together on both sides of the ball and are aware of just how much of a threat we really are.
From what I read and what steelers fans have said, they believe exactly this will happen. We will implode... while somehow the steelers get it together and come out on top. Ben goes down with injury and they're looking at the #1 pick in the draft.
I'm excited about the season, but we might be getting ahead of ourselves a bit. We think Corbett can replace Zeitler adequately, but it might also affect whoever ends up at RT. It's a pretty big unknown. Tretter has been injury prone in the past. Our OL needs to hold up.
Pitt, as much as I loathe them, still is pretty good in the trenches. While not AB, Juju and Washington aren't bad. Connor did pretty well last year. If they can shore up the D in the draft, they won't be an easy out. Losing Munchak could hurt them.
I'm excited about the season, but we might be getting ahead of ourselves a bit. We think Corbett can replace Zeitler adequately, but it might also affect whoever ends up at RT. It's a pretty big unknown. Tretter has been injury prone in the past. Our OL needs to hold up.
Pitt, as much as I loathe them, still is pretty good in the trenches. While not AB, Juju and Washington aren't bad. Connor did pretty well last year. If they can shore up the D in the draft, they won't be an easy out. Losing Munchak could hurt them.
Enjoy it now, but I wouldn't get too cocky.
I'm sick of the words "temper", "caution" and whatnot. Good teams ARE cocky, and go into every game expecting to win. That's where my mindset is. We're there now.
I can see why 5-3 in the last half of the 2018 season is cause for extreme excitement. No doubt about it. But we lost to every top shelf team we played.
That's why I can also see those who say we should temper our enthusiasm feeling the way they do. Both sides make a valid point.
I can see why 5-3 in the last half of the 2018 season is cause for extreme excitement. No doubt about it. But we lost to every top shelf team we played.
That's why I can also see those who say we should temper our enthusiasm feeling the way they do. Both sides make a valid point.
I agree. I tend to be cautiously optimistic. What we did last year was great but you could make an argument we did not beat a great team last year.
I am planning on looking forward to next season and assume we will have a good season. I am not going over the top predicting 11-5 and Super Bowl but would gladly take it.
I won't criticize those pumped up and making big predictions, but I certainly don't expect any criticism for tempering my expectations.
I don't feel cocky about the Browns. However, I have never felt so optimistic about the talent of our team than I am now.
I have been called a Negative Nancy, a Doom-and-Gloomer, a Hater, etc for years. I always said I was a realist because I thought folks were overrating our talent.
In my opinion, this team is truly loaded w/talent. I don't think that it is even a debate in regards to how much talent we have. The only questions center around how we mesh and if we can use that superior talent to win games.
We also have to consider that the fans don't play the games. Thus, us getting too cocky has no effect on how the players play. The only concern would be is if the fans/media turn on the coaches and/or certain players if the team isn't living up to the heightened expectations. We have seen that over and over again for years.
My bottom line on this is that this team is loaded w/talent and I am fairly confident that Dorsey is going to continue to improve that talent. It's a good feeling.
I'm excited about the season, but we might be getting ahead of ourselves a bit. We think Corbett can replace Zeitler adequately, but it might also affect whoever ends up at RT. It's a pretty big unknown. Tretter has been injury prone in the past. Our OL needs to hold up.
Pitt, as much as I loathe them, still is pretty good in the trenches. While not AB, Juju and Washington aren't bad. Connor did pretty well last year. If they can shore up the D in the draft, they won't be an easy out. Losing Munchak could hurt them.
Enjoy it now, but I wouldn't get too cocky.
While Pittsburgh still has some talent, their secondary hasn't been good in...what, 10 years? Their front 7 is good because their defensive line is good, but their exterior pass rushers aren't great. Watt is good, but Dupree is awful. They also have suffered greatly with the loss of Shazier and have not been able to even adequately to this point.
Then you go to their offense, they have an aging Ben, they lost a top 5 OL coach, their RT, #1 WR, their best TE, and franchise RB. Sure, Conner is good, as is JuJu, but they are not AB or Lev Bell.
They were already on their way down last year. Without maybe the best WR in the NFL, I wouldn't exactly say they have improved. The Ravens are a much bigger threat to the Browns than the Steelers at this point. And truly, the biggest threat to the Browns is themselves.
With the right bit of progress from Baker, our offense is good enough to hang with, and beat, any team in this league.
Our defense, however, is a gigantic question mark. We've gotten better, but I don't know that we've gotten better enough to be able to count any of the better teams as sure-fire wins.
The last game against Pittsburgh, we got it handed to us. Badly. The Chargers abused us to the extent that there should have been someone calling a hotline to report them.
As has been pointed out, ANY *good* team beat us handily..... I don't know that our moves thus far are enough to offset how badly we got beaten in those games.
It is absolutely enough for us to look at games like Oakland and say "Never again", but that's about it.
You know what is crazy, Purp? Look at the two most-talented rosters in the AFC as things stand right now. KC and Cleveland. Then look at the similarities. Young stud QBs that are surrounded by playmakers and led by innovative offensive minds.
Both defenses are questionable. Sacks and turnovers are keys to both.
The craziest thing is that both teams were built by John Dorsey.
Any updates from the Baker Camp. We heard that Njoku, Higgins, Ratley were all working out together. I heard Landry from this board but not from Njoku or others. Njoku said he was going to get Baker to come to the set of NFL Network, did he do so and if so do we have a video of the clip or news when he will? I'm sure he will give more names.
But any news from our Writers I mean if I'm a football beat writer of the Browns I'm following Baker wherever he is going and will report on anything that is being done. Not canned stories they give us...how bout some real NEWS!
Thanks in advance from any news about Baker and his workouts.
OBJ was in Europe when is he getting into Berea and when is he going to join Baker, If I remember correctly he actually was working out with Baker last year.
We can only ASSume he works out with him this year considering he is his QB.
Any news on Strong, is he going to fight for a WR position or shrug his shoulders and get cut AGAIN.
The key to all this EGO, SATISFACTION, ETC...is for them to WORK HARD Njoku has it right...time to not sit on their butts but to work 10 times harder!
Where is Devalve, Duke, Chubb, Calloway, Strong, Harris and the rest of the NEW GUYS along with Landry.
Also I don't want Baker to get a dead arm so he has to rest a couple of weeks in between major workouts!
I'm sure we will be bringing in at least 2 more QBs we only got 2 on our roster right now. Later round draft and at least one other to work out in our Camps!
You know what is crazy, Purp? Look at the two most-talented rosters in the AFC as things stand right now. KC and Cleveland. Then look at the similarities. Young stud QBs that are surrounded by playmakers and led by innovative offensive minds.
Both defenses are questionable. Sacks and turnovers are keys to both.
The craziest thing is that both teams were built by John Dorsey.
What will be truly amazing is if Dorsey can build this defense to be worthy of what this offense should be able to do.
I don't feel cocky about the Browns. However, I have never felt so optimistic about the talent of our team than I am now.
I have been called a Negative Nancy, a Doom-and-Gloomer, a Hater, etc for years. I always said I was a realist because I thought folks were overrating our talent.
In my opinion, this team is truly loaded w/talent. I don't think that it is even a debate in regards to how much talent we have. The only questions center around how we mesh and if we can use that superior talent to win games.
We also have to consider that the fans don't play the games. Thus, us getting too cocky has no effect on how the players play. The only concern would be is if the fans/media turn on the coaches and/or certain players if the team isn't living up to the heightened expectations. We have seen that over and over again for years.
My bottom line on this is that this team is loaded w/talent and I am fairly confident that Dorsey is going to continue to improve that talent. It's a good feeling.
The weird thing is I have always been one of the guys who have been an "optimistic, this could really be our year if" fans over the years. I did not always post it because I did not want to hear that I was a "fool" for feeling that way" and I don't mean to imply you specifically would have called me a fool. I think I knew the Browns would be bad but I needed to feel a good season was possible.
Now that we have much more legitimate talent I have a strange "what if XYZ happens" and they fall backwards. I assume I just don't want to be disappointed again?
I was talking to my buddy yesterday about this. Top to bottom, I truly believe that it's between the Browns and the Chiefs right now regarding the top roster on paper and feel that we're going to be in the running with them for most dangerous team.
Obv the chargers are still good, the Patriots are always scary, etc. But I can see us having a Chiefs like season.
I hear ya...and I took it on the chin - not called fool but was called a "HOMER" which basically was meant as a word to call me FOOL... But you get it. I was no dummy, I knew our team lacked a lot but it doesn't mean I have to be always telling all that to show I was smart or something. I felt the need as a FAN to look at the BEST CASE scenario's. I did so with Football in my posts. Now all these posters are being Optimistic...maybe its time for me to be a pessimist...
I don't actually believe the term homer is calling someone a fool. I just think it means their view is obviously slanted or bias.
We didn't have the talent to be so optimistic in the past. The roster was poor and most often the QB room looked like a whose who of which one will be out of the NFL first.
Whatever...not going to debate this...but in my "BIAS" I always gave Football Logic and was not opposed likewise instead I got the HOMER argument as if that was all that was needed. Still it was use to dummy my football down and an EXCUSE for those to not talk football. As if that was all they needed to say.
Well those days are done. As the kid described his thoughts on being optimistic. Pretty much covered mine. Last I looked I was a FAN...not a coach, not an journalist...A FAN and I'm to be questioned on my bais to the team I love...Duh of course I'm biased.
You all could mean it whatever way you wish. It was used as an Insult to me.
Glad those days are over with. But now what am I going to be called for those who wish to avoid a football discussion???
I'm sick of the words "temper", "caution" and whatnot. Good teams ARE cocky, and go into every game expecting to win. That's where my mindset is. We're there now.
I would argue their is a difference between having swagger and being cocky. I'm cool with being excited and optimistic. I just don't want us to overlook people and things to turn ugly quick when we don't blowout everybody starting week 1. We have the talent to be great. But, there's a lot of work to be done. Other teams are working, too. Each year is its own thing. There's a difference between expecting to win and thinking its just going to happen because you "have more talent."
More than being sick of "temper" and "caution", I'm sick of losing. Putting the cart before the horse can lead to a lot of losing.
Potential is great, but in football you've got to earn everything a day/play at a time.
The Patriots aren't the greatest team on paper, but they sure win a lot.
Lots of teams that have won in March were nowhere to be seen come the playoffs.
Bottom line: I like swagger, and it's nice to have some more on the team. But, it's March, not December. We haven't even gotten them all on the field yet.
It's nice to feel optimistic, but I think it is a bit soon to be burying anybody.
You know what is crazy, Purp? Look at the two most-talented rosters in the AFC as things stand right now. KC and Cleveland. Then look at the similarities. Young stud QBs that are surrounded by playmakers and led by innovative offensive minds.
Both defenses are questionable. Sacks and turnovers are keys to both.
The craziest thing is that both teams were built by John Dorsey.
Is KC still on top? I'm not questioning last year, they were great. They'll still be good in all likelihood.
They're losing some pieces, though. Both edge rushers, center, etc.
We're young pretty much everywhere,and they're (mostly) all under contract for awhile in addition to being talented. Dorsey may have gotten better on the contract-side and roster construction in addition to his talent evaluating since KC.
It's definitely easy to get hyped about the direction of the Browns. I am having trouble helping myself at times.
Highly talented,stacked offense,blah,blah blah. Couldn't stop the run last year,not much has changed. Good teams are going to lineup in 12 personnel,play keep away,and ram that ball up our collective arses. See Patriots,New England
Highly talented,stacked offense,blah,blah blah. Couldn't stop the run last year,not much has changed. Good teams are going to lineup in 12 personnel,play keep away,and ram that ball up our collective arses. See Patriots,New England
I realize you're sitting at your keyboard with bated breath waiting to inject some smart-ass remark,but sometimes you should read what has been posted. Not much,two small words I used.
Good teams are going to lineup in 12 personnel,play keep away,and ram that ball up our collective arses. See Patriots,New England
You may wish to look at the order of the posts. I actually replied BEFORE your two word post. This is what I was responding to. With a better run stopper in the middle of our DL we should be better at stopping the run.
You know what is crazy, Purp? Look at the two most-talented rosters in the AFC as things stand right now. KC and Cleveland. Then look at the similarities. Young stud QBs that are surrounded by playmakers and led by innovative offensive minds.
Both defenses are questionable. Sacks and turnovers are keys to both.
The craziest thing is that both teams were built by John Dorsey.
OMG ! You're calling Mayfield a " young stud " Vers ? You think he's good ? I will give you Kudos for admitting you were wrong in your pre draft evaluation of Baker and also for not being stubborn and open minded as it relates to our QB.
Highly talented,stacked offense,blah,blah blah. Couldn't stop the run last year,not much has changed. Good teams are going to lineup in 12 personnel,play keep away,and ram that ball up our collective arses. See Patriots,New England
So adding Sheldon Richardson means nothing???
It doesn't mean nothing, but it does need to show itself on the field before it is actually anything here. Nobody gets into the Playoffs based on "potential" or how good they are "on paper". He is good against the run, but he's only one person and one piece. To neutralize him and his ability against the run, they just have to run somewhere else.... we need to be better against the run across the board, and we also need to be better against the passes to TE's & RB's. This defense has holes.
Highly talented,stacked offense,blah,blah blah. Couldn't stop the run last year,not much has changed. Good teams are going to lineup in 12 personnel,play keep away,and ram that ball up our collective arses. See Patriots,New England
So adding Sheldon Richardson means nothing???
Before the trade for OBJ I was on board with this FA acquisition ... After the trade, we lost out on a possible stud DT @17, so in retrospect this signing could be huge!
Their argument is that the Browns might implode due to the all the strong personalities. Baker, OBJ, Landry...
Given that they're Steeler fans, I can see why they'd think this. BUT...Baker, Landry and OBJ aren't Ben, Antonio and Le'veon. And Kitchens definitely isn't Tomlin. Kitchens is the key to everything working out.
I think that is where Baker Mayfield plays into this scenario being ok. I think he has the right personality to handle it. He's going to be at the forefront of everything, but he really seems like a guy who wants everyone to be in the spotlight.
The key will be when things aren't going well, whether in a game itself, or during the midst of a mid-season struggle. Will guys start complaining to the media (which is obv not a good sign) or will they band together and find a way? I think Baker can rally the troops.
I hope they can put this all together because it has so much potential to be a great team.
I get that people are low-key worried though. Because we have seen this time and time again. Trendy pre-season picks fail all the time, and you better believe the Browns are going to be a trendy pick. They're going to be picked to make the playoffs by quite a lot of experts.
I'm not worried about the stacked talent as much as I am Freddie Kitchens not being able to handle it all. Believe me I am in his corner and I think the hire says a lot about him and the way he was received, but that is quite the jump to go from being hired on as a running backs coach, to end up as the head coach by season's end. That does worry me. I'm not doubting the guy, but that is a ridiculous jump. Being a great play caller doesn't equal handling an entire roster and coaching staff (just ask Hue Jackson).
I think by the way they have constructed this roster, that he's not going to just throw his weight around like Jackson did. I think he's bringing in guys who he can hand things off to. I am pulling for him.
I was hoping he'd stay on as OC, but if he's going to man the whole ship, I hope it works, because I think he has the mind of someone in tune to modern football, there is no doubt about that.
Just about every head coach in the NFL became a head coach after being a coordinator - why would Kitchens be any different. What about being a coordinator qualifies you to be a head coach.
Just about every head coach in the NFL became a head coach after being a coordinator - why would Kitchens be any different. What about being a coordinator qualifies you to be a head coach.
Did you read my whole post? I just think that's quite the jump to start the year as a positional coach and end up HC by the end of the season.
It went by my head that Freddy was Running backs coach AND ASSOCIATE HEAD COACH initially in 2018. Wonder if Dorsey had something in mind then?
At any rate, staying with the thread topic, I think Mr. Kitchens is as well prepared as any first-time head coach to deal with the issue of dealing with prima donnas.
It went by my head that Freddy was Running backs coach AND ASSOCIATE HEAD COACH initially in 2018. Wonder if Dorsey had something in mind then?
I made that same point a few months ago when we were talking about coaching candidates. He was ostensibly brought in by Todd Haley, but Haley didn't have to authority to name him AHC, someone above him had to make that call. Add to that he did the play calling in the 4th preseason game, and I suspect that Dorsey had bigger plans for Kitchens from the start.
Just about every head coach in the NFL became a head coach after being a coordinator - why would Kitchens be any different. What about being a coordinator qualifies you to be a head coach.
I don't think it qualifies you, but it is a natural progression.
That said, I don't think it has to work that way. Plus, Freddie was a coordinator, be it 8 games. I don't think there is some magic number one needs to attain to move on to the head coach position.
Just about every head coach in the NFL became a head coach after being a coordinator - why would Kitchens be any different. What about being a coordinator qualifies you to be a head coach.
Did you read my whole post? I just think that's quite the jump to start the year as a positional coach and end up HC by the end of the season.
It is. Anthony Lynn just did practically thr same thing as Kitchens though and is doing well with the Chargers.
Browns’ Odell Beckham Jr. announces he’s going dark for a few days to ‘re-evaluate some things in...Beckham announced on Instagram he's going dark for a few days to process everything in the wake all that's changed for him recently.
Just wondering, if by some chance, OBJ says, I'm not going to go to Cleveland, what happens to the trade? do we get Peppers back, do we get our 1st and 3rd picks back?
Sounds like he just wants to follow Landry's advice and "get his head straight".
Quote:
P.S.A. I love you all so much, for the ones that follow and support I thank u all for that. I’m takin an emotional, mental, physical/ blah blah blah vacation . I appreciate the love honestly but at this moment for the next couple of days I’m goin dark. I won’t be around , phone is gone, with all due respect, please don’t text/ call / FaceTime unless it’s of the utmost importance . I really need some time to vibe and just get away, process, reevaluate some of the things in my life, as much has changed for me recently. I’m doin amazing thanks for askin!!! Im really just tryin to get everything together and gather all my thoughts so I can take the next steps in my life to be the very very very best me moving forward . God bless u all and again thanks for the love and support, I will see u soon.... Always LUVVVVV
Of course I go on a little vacation and this trade goes down.
The entire offense changed overnight. Landry struggling to get open changed overnight. Callaway being expected to produce more than his draft slot changed overnight. Counting on Higgins to greatly improve evaporated.
OBJ is a field tilting player. The entire defense has to shade to his side. The Browns have not seen the likes of that since I have been alive. (JG doesn't count). The Steelers lost Antonio Brown and we got an Antonio Brown caliber of player.
With all of that said, 5th best odds to win the Superbowl...from Vegas? That seems like a pipe dream to me, I simply cannot believe it.
OBJ has consistently said he wants to be legendary, that word legendary is a direct quote. We're gonna find out.
Just wondering, if by some chance, OBJ says, I'm not going to go to Cleveland, what happens to the trade? do we get Peppers back, do we get our 1st and 3rd picks back?
Or are we stiffed on the deal?
I don't think that scenario will happen, but if it did, I think we are stiffed on the deal.
Just wondering, if by some chance, OBJ says, I'm not going to go to Cleveland, what happens to the trade? do we get Peppers back, do we get our 1st and 3rd picks back?
Or are we stiffed on the deal?
He no longer gets a say. Even if he had a no-trade clause in his contract his opportunity to say anything was before the deal was finalized with the league office. Once it was submitted and processed, it was a done deal. He's not "coming to Cleveland", he is "IN Cleveland" (not physically, yet, but he is officially on the roster). He *IS* a Cleveland Browns player.
Should he make some whacked out decision to not play for us, which I do not get the feeling he is, he would be choosing to sit out on his contract. We own his rights, he would not be accruing seasons, he would not be playing, he would get nothing. Granted, we would get nothing as well, but there are provisions to allow a team to move such a player to a non-Active spot of the roster so that he wouldn't count against our 53. It requires league approval, but that's a formality.
Just wondering, if by some chance, OBJ says, I'm not going to go to Cleveland, what happens to the trade? do we get Peppers back, do we get our 1st and 3rd picks back?
Or are we stiffed on the deal?
He no longer gets a say. Even if he had a no-trade clause in his contract his opportunity to say anything was before the deal was finalized with the league office. Once it was submitted and processed, it was a done deal. He's not "coming to Cleveland", he is "IN Cleveland" (not physically, yet, but he is officially on the roster). He *IS* a Cleveland Browns player.
Should he make some whacked out decision to not play for us, which I do not get the feeling he is, he would be choosing to sit out on his contract. We own his rights, he would not be accruing seasons, he would not be playing, he would get nothing. Granted, we would get nothing as well, but there are provisions to allow a team to move such a player to a non-Active spot of the roster so that he wouldn't count against our 53. It requires league approval, but that's a formality.
Ok,, that makes sense.. But we don't get Nothing, we still own his rights and if he ever wants to play again, he's gotta do one of two things, show up for us or show up to where we trade him to. Right?
Rehab? I don't believe OBJ has ever been in the program...
As far as I can tell he's never been arrested and has been nothing but a professional as far as his work ethic and accountability goes.
He is most certainly a Diva and while some will demonize it, he spoke the facts on Eli Manning.....who gets treated like royalty because of his last name.
I'd also like to add that in the return game, losing Jabril was addition by subtraction.
I also don't think Dereck Kindred is nearly the drop off from Peppers that people might think on the surface. I remember going into last season thinking Kindred might win the job from Peppers.
Just wondering, if by some chance, OBJ says, I'm not going to go to Cleveland, what happens to the trade? do we get Peppers back, do we get our 1st and 3rd picks back?
Or are we stiffed on the deal?
Once the deal goes through, it goes through.
It's no different than if Baker decided he didn't want to play here anymore.
I'd also like to add that in the return game, losing Jabril was addition by subtraction.
I also don't think Dereck Kindred is nearly the drop off from Peppers that people might think on the surface. I remember going into last season thinking Kindred might win the job from Peppers.
I know we are loaded at WR but drafting Paris Campbell at #49 isn't as crazy as it may sound, he would be an other capable WR (behind OBJ, Landry, Callaway, and Higgins) but would solidify our Return game, he was an excellent returner when he was used at Ohio State …
Just about every head coach in the NFL became a head coach after being a coordinator - why would Kitchens be any different. What about being a coordinator qualifies you to be a head coach.
Did you read my whole post? I just think that's quite the jump to start the year as a positional coach and end up HC by the end of the season.
It is. Anthony Lynn just did practically thr same thing as Kitchens though and is doing well with the Chargers.
That's a great point, hopefully Freddie can make that jump.
As far as the AHC thing, was that a title put on after Hue was fired or was that at the beginning of the year?
Again, I am not doubting Kitchens as HC, but if I am being honest, sure, it worries me a little bit, but my god am i pulling for the guy.
He's seems just about as likable as any Browns coach we've had.
And I'm sure Hue set a great example of things not to do.
We're all pulling for him. I doubt anyone is NOT pulling for him, but expressing skepticism over his rapid rise to head coach based on a half season as a coordinator and our fear he would be poached if he was retained as OC (let's all be honest, this is why he got the job) fine as well. You can pull for someone to succeed while being skeptical at the same time, as they're not mutually exclusive.
I am not skeptical. Proof is in the pudding ( not sure where that expression came from ) He won games! Not only did he win games, you can tell he won by using players to the best of their abilities. He also ran unique plays and most of the time they worked. That is key Freddie is innovative and smart with his x's and o's. I think the 3 headed monster of Dorsey, Freddie and Baker defeats all rivals for years to come!
I also hope that his success as an OC translates to HC. There are plenty of examples of that not happening, though. Can't know 'til you tried it, though.
After the trade went down, Ian Rapoport of NFL Media reported that Beckham (who has five years, $74 million left on his current contract) wants a new deal. Also, former teammate Saquon Barkley said Tuesday that he spoke to Beckham immediately after the trade and “I don’t think he was really happy about it."
This is from a PFT article. This Saquan quote is a new one for me. Everything I read/saw suggested that he was pretty excited to be coming here. Or at a minimum, happy about a change of scenery.
The comments all seem to be coming from Giants fans, also.
I don't know if he's happy or not... If you're not a Browns fan or Browns player, you can only imagine what it would be like being traded to the Browns... We were known around the league as one of the worst places to go. You come here to goof off and collect a pay check. Baker is changing the culture. The Browns are changing. We have hungry fans... In a year from now he'll say how this was the best thing that happened to him... I half expect Beckham to be here for a long time.
I would think it has to be weird to be traded. It means someone didn't want you, so to speak... I'd imagine you'd have to be mentally tough. We hear about these trades all the time, but I'm sure it affects players in a manner we truly do not understand... especially with social media where you can see many fans he played hard for were happy to see him go. Reminds me of Couch a little.
After the trade went down, Ian Rapoport of NFL Media reported that Beckham (who has five years, $74 million left on his current contract) wants a new deal. Also, former teammate Saquon Barkley said Tuesday that he spoke to Beckham immediately after the trade and “I don’t think he was really happy about it."
This is from a PFT article. This Saquan quote is a new one for me. Everything I read/saw suggested that he was pretty excited to be coming here. Or at a minimum, happy about a change of scenery.
Honestly, I am not worried about OBJ in the sense of all of these reports that take a negative connotation towards his attitude and feelings post trade. I am not concerned about him "going dark".
In the case of many trades, GM and or coach talks one on one with the player. Thanks them for their service. Lets them know the plan moving forward. And in most cases, diffuses any bad feelings. For the most part. As was said earlier, there is always that feeling that someone did not want you.
In the case of OBJ. The guy is on vacation in Europe. All reports out there are that the Giants "didn't sign him to trade him". Was he completely happy in NY? No...but he was fully committed. And he does like the large market that NY is. It is the only team he has known in the NFL. A team he has won a Super Bowl with. Not to mention...how often does the best player in your position ever get traded...It happens...but not often and usually with plenty of signs ahead of time. He was not expecting to be traded.
Now he gets a phone call from Gettleman, in what was only described as "brief". Now we don't know what was said, and I may be looking too much into it. But it doesn't seem like there was much "diffusing going on in that phone call. I am sure it wasn't nasty...But One second you are chilling in Paris. The next second, your world has been turned around. A team you have bled for, now appears to not want you. Your phone starts to explode with friends, family, teammates, and reporters wanting to get your reaction. You realize that now you have to move to "Cleveland" (while better than the reputation, it is by no means the same as New York...And OBJ seems to like the flash and dash of New York) There are a million questions to be asked concerning your new team. And as you are in Paris, you feel a million miles away from home.
It is quite a lot to take in when it blindsides you. At this point you are not even thinking about where you are going, the team you are going to and whether you will like it there. All you thinking about is what the heck just happened??? I do not feel the Giants communication with him prepared him for this eventuality nor left him feeling the Giants were feeling any pain in trading him. For example the Browns, while ecstatic about getting Vernon, feel some pain in giving up Zeitler. Sure there are ok with the deal...and they felt this was best for the team...but a part of them will miss Zeitler...Corbett or no Corbett.
I don't have any proof of this...it is just my general impression from the limited information that is out there.
As he communicates more with his new team and gets to the facility. I think you will see "excitement". Despite all of the antics...it is more than generally known that Odell is a very good teammate and one of, if not THE hardest worker. I will not question his commitment. And I think he will be a perfect fit within this WR room.
I think we will see exactly what the Browns want to see...a "dangerous, contagious competition" that spreads to the whole team. Just seeing the Jarvis and Odell trying to out do each other will be ridiculous...lol It will only make them all better.
One question that I haven't seen asked. Does anyone remember a Team whose starting 2 WR's were teammates and starters on their college team?
I mean, I am sure we have had teams with multiple receivers from the same College. But to have receivers from the same years as well as being the 2 starting receivers for that team???
--I don't recall a NFL team having two starting receivers who were both starters for the same collegiate team.
--I don't believe OBJ won a Super Bowl w/the Giants. I think they won their two w/Eli before OBJ got there.
--I don't think OBJ is indicating he is unhappy he was traded. I think he was on vacation and partying and put that tweet out there because he was sick of his phone blowing up. I think he deleted it later because the buzz wore off and he knew it would be controversial.
--I think OBJ is going to be a huge asset for the Browns and this trade was the biggest "splash" of the NFL off-season.
So this came as a surprise to him??? Dark? oh geeze I hope all the Giant fans who told me Good Riddance were not correct. Is this a Contract move? Or am I reading too much into this???
So this came as a surprise to him??? Dark? oh geeze I hope all the Giant fans who told me Good Riddance were not correct. Is this a Contract move? Or am I reading too much into this???
Listen to his teammates, they are sorry, very sorry to see him go.
I am not skeptical. Proof is in the pudding ( not sure where that expression came from ) He won games! Not only did he win games, you can tell he won by using players to the best of their abilities. He also ran unique plays and most of the time they worked. That is key Freddie is innovative and smart with his x's and o's. I think the 3 headed monster of Dorsey, Freddie and Baker defeats all rivals for years to come!
What's the origin of the phrase 'The proof of the pudding'? 'The proof of the pudding' is just shorthand for 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. That longer version makes sense at least, whereas the shortened version really doesn't mean anything - nor does the often-quoted incorrect variation 'the proof is in the pudding'. The continued use of that meaningless version is no doubt bolstered by the fact that the correct version isn't at all easy to understand.
The meaning become clear when you know that 'proof' here is a verb meaning 'test'. The more common meaning of 'proof' in our day and age is the noun meaning 'the evidence that demonstrates a truth' - as in a mathematical or legal proof. The verb form meaning 'to test' is less often used these days, although it does survive in several commonly used phrases: 'the exception that proves the rule', 'proof-read', 'proving-ground', etc. When bakers 'prove' yeast they are letting it stand in warm water for a time, to determine that it is active. Clearly, the distinction between these two forms of the word was originally quite slight and the proof in a 'showing to be true' sense is merely the successful outcome of a test of whether a proposition is correct or not.
'The proof of the pudding is in the eating' is a very old proverb. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations dates it back to the early 14th century, albeit without offering any supporting evidence for that assertion. The phrase is widely attributed to Cervantes in The History of Don Quixote. This appears to be by virtue of an early 18th century translation by Peter Motteux, which has been criticised by later scholars as 'a loose paraphrase' and 'Franco-Cockney'. Crucially the Spanish word for pudding - 'budín', doesn't appear in the original Spanish text. It is doubtful that 'the proof of the pudding' was a figurative phrase that was known to Cervantes.
The earliest printed example of the proverb that I can find is in William Camden's Remaines of a Greater Worke Concerning Britaine, 1605:
"All the proof of a pudding is in the eating."
The proof of the pudding is in the eatingIt is worth remembering that, as the phrase is quite old, the pudding wouldn't have been a sticky toffee pudding from the sweet trolley, but a potentially fatal savoury dish. In Camden's listing of proverbs he also includes "If you eat a pudding at home, the dog may have the skin", which suggests that the pudding he had in mind was some form of sausage. THE OED describes the medieval pudding as 'the stomach or one of the entrails of a pig, sheep, or other animal, stuffed with a mixture of minced meat, suet, oatmeal, seasoning, etc., and boiled'. Those of you who have ventured north of the border on Burns Night will recognize this as a fair description of a haggis - "the great chieftain o' the pudding-race", as Burns called it in the poem Address to a Haggis, 1786. medieval peasants, faced with a boiled up farmyard massacre, might have thought a taste test to have been a wise choice. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/proof-of-the-pudding.html
If anyone else is like me - it's a hard thing to adjust to the Browns sort of being Front Runners and not the underdog ... not for any other reason than we've had such a history of stuff derailing, that you can't help but worry a little & want to still come in under the radar .... but .... dang, at the same time it feels GOOD !
Warfield, Brian Sipe, both in the ballpark, QB hard to gauge, Warfield less productive but in a different era. Greg Pruitt maybe for flash plays, for a few seasons.
Collins and Slaughter were not close, Ozzie also in the ballpark. Kelly had sustained production for many years, value to the team could be comparable.
OBJ trumps all those, IMO, but his salary may not be sustainable long-term. But, to quote Greenspan, in the long-term, we're all dead.
Jim Brown was just before my time, different era, but likely a more valuable player to the team. Otto, Motley, others were so long ago it just was not the same sport.
No, Moss had that huge season in NE after he was traded. I probably should have included him, but he pretty much quit on Oakland and they almost had to trade him. It's kinda like the Antonio Brown situation, but worse.
Hey, I forgot about AB. I know he is older, but he is still a top three WR along w/Julio and OBJ.
Do you remember how old Portis was when he was traded? Hmmmm....I think he did have some big years after he was traded. I forgot about him.
You know.........I think you are right about Cutler, as well. I didn't think of him because he turned out to be a disappointment, but he was highly regarded at the time he was traded from Denver to the Bears. Didn't they give up a pair of first round choices or something like that for him?
Just looked it up, Portis rushed for 3099 yds and 29 TDS in his first two seasons then was traded to Washington. He was 22 yrs old. In 7 seasons at Washington he had 6824 yds and 46 TDs.
After trading Portis, the Broncos went with Party Starter Reuben Droughns the following season. After Droughns racked up 1200+ yds for Denver he came to Cleveland, I believe as a free agent and also ran for 1200+ yds. Crazy. And probably why I remember the Portis trade.
Also looked up the Cutler trade... traded Cutler and a 5th for Orton, 2 1sts (2010 and 2011) and a 3rd rd pick. That's a great haul for Denver, actually. They could have made out on those picks, but passed over guys such as Earl Thomas and Clay Matthews for Alphonso Smith and Robert Ayers.
We didn't give up nearly that much for OBJ, but Cutler is a quarterback, and like you said, regarded very highly. Looking it up, Cutler never won more than 10 games in a season and finished his career a lackluster 74-79 as starter.
NFL.com’s Lance Zierlein said on the network’s “Move the Sticks” podcast that the Browns didn’t place first-round value on the No. 17 pick they dealt as the centerpiece of the package for Beckham due to a dearth of first-round talent in the upcoming NFL draft.
“I had heard that the Browns considered there to be 15 players that are first-round players in this year’s draft,” Zierlein said. “That sounds about right. About 15 guys who are first-round picks. Analytics is always about quantifying value so, for them, that 17th pick, they considered that a second-round player, generally speaking.”
Warfield eclipsed 1,000 yards just once in his 13 year career. OBJ has four 1,000 plus yard seasons in his 5-year career.
I get the game has changed, but people talk about OBJ as a guy who has the ability to be the best ever. Warfield was a great player, but is not in that conversation.
Warfield eclipsed 1,000 yards just once in his 13 year career. OBJ has four 1,000 plus yard seasons in his 5-year career.
I get the game has changed, but people talk about OBJ as a guy who has the ability to be the best ever. Warfield was a great player, but is not in that conversation.
In Warfield's first 4 of 5 years he played in 2 less games per year totaling 8 games and he only played in 1 game his second season missing 13 more a total of 21 missed games that would have added to his total considerably ...
I would agree that the stats do not reflect the comparability of Beckham and warfield. Both great receivers! As far as bad trades, hard to top frank robinson from the reds to the orioles because he was “an old 30”.
At the time of his retirement in 1977, Warfield was tied for #3 All Time Touchdowns in a career at 85
Cleveland Browns records held at the time of Retirement ( 1977 )
• [1st] Most Yards Receiving, Season – 1,067 (1968) • [2nd] Most Touchdown Receptions, Career – 52 • [2nd] Highest Average Gain Per Reception, Career – 19.2 • [2nd] Most Consecutive Games With Touchdown Reception – 6 (1968) • [Tied for 2nd] Most Touchdown Receptions, Season – 12 (1968)
I do think it's hard to compare stats from different eras - and harder still to grasp how pass happy today's game is.
Marino threw for over 4,000 yards in 6 seasons ... over 5K once. In 2018 Derek Carr through for over 4K yards ... An aging universally thought to be in need of replacement Eli Manning threw for 4,300 yards ....... if you look at the middle of the pack in 1984 when Marino threw for 5K - the 15th/16th QB on the list was throwing 2500 yards a season. in 2018 the 15th/16th QB by yards is throwing 3,800 yards.... 52% more than 25 years ago.
With that said - I think OBJ is a transitional talent and play maker. Based on Baker progressing just a little - and based on Freddie being 1/2 way competent as a HC. . . . this trade and marriage of talents is a great move.
I do think it's hard to compare stats from different eras - and harder still to grasp how pass happy today's game is.
Marino threw for over 4,000 yards in 6 seasons ... over 5K once. In 2018 Derek Carr through for over 4K yards ... An aging universally thought to be in need of replacement Eli Manning threw for 4,300 yards ....... if you look at the middle of the pack in 1984 when Marino threw for 5K - the 15th/16th QB on the list was throwing 2500 yards a season. in 2018 the 15th/16th QB by yards is throwing 3,800 yards.... 52% more than 25 years ago.
With that said - I think OBJ is a transitional talent and play maker. Based on Baker progressing just a little - and based on Freddie being 1/2 way competent as a HC. . . . this trade and marriage of talents is a great move.
I'm not arguing that at all.. The question was "Is OBJ the best Brown since Jim Brown retired, and if not, who may have been." Different eras, but ignoring Warfield is like saying because Ryan Tannehill had two 4000 yard passing seasons out of 6 total is a better QB than Bob Greise, who never passed for more than 2,500 yards in a season.
huh. Can you put him (Gordon), ahead of Kevin Johnson.
Can you put Kevin Johnson ahead of Michael Jackson.
Can you put Michael Jackson ahead of Webster Slaughter.
those 3 are just what I woulda considered #1 wr deep outside options.
I can't put one in front of the other, and everybody plays different roles, What about Ernest Byner?, What about Josh Cribbs, Everybody does something different, it's not worth a comparison. "What about Ozzie Newsome!" get outta here with the original troll question. ( I finally learned the definition of what a troll is, it's a verb not a noun.)
I think Drew Brees, and whatever that San Diego charger quarterback who's been there for 17 years or something and is stll there, I want to call him Phil Collins,
He and Brees were both on the Chargers for a short time on the day they were drafted, and a trade was in the works, for the drafted player to go somewhere in exchange for the pick to draft the other player.
So ya I think Drew Brees was traded, 45 minutes after he was drafted, by the Chargers.
Are you saying people should be less excited about the impact of the trade involving ODBJ coming to the Browns?
No, I'm saying that I am excited about OBJ coming to my favorite team and that I think that certain folks are not recognizing how great he is because they don't like his personality.
I find it a bit strange, that people on here act as though OBJ is already the Greatest Brown's Player of all time, while Hunt is a poor man's backup to Duke, when neither has even been on the field in a Browns uniform yet. Hunt is from the Cleveland area, won the NFL Rushing Title as a rookie, and was leading the league in rushing last year, his second season, at the time he was cut. Both should be looked at as incredible talents and pieces to he puzzle, not as the be all end all of Browns Football.
Remember LeCharles Bentley ? Everyone went crazy. Greatest Browns Lineman ever. Excitement everywhere, and he didn't get past the first day of Training Camp.
One of the biggest differences in all of this is that we already have a top 10 quarterback in the league. I think that is the stem of the excitement. OBJ could get hurt in training camp but we'd still be ok because of who is behind center.
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