NEW YORK -- Nick Gilbert and the Cleveland Cavaliers have beaten the NBA lottery odds again.
The Cavaliers won the lottery for the second time in three years Tuesday, giving them the No. 1 pick for the June 27 draft.
Gilbert, owner Dan Gilbert's bowtie-wearing son, was on stage for another the victory. After he won it in 2011, the Cavs used the pick to take eventual Rookie of the Year Kyrie Irving.
The Orlando Magic fell back one spot to No. 2, while the Washington Wizards vaulted from the No. 8 spot to third.
Ten years after winning the lottery that landed them LeBron James, the Cavaliers picked up another opportunity to help speed up the rebuilding process since his departure to Miami in 2010.
The potential No. 1 pick this year, Kentucky freshman Nerlens Noel, is no James. But he could be a nice addition for the Cavs once he's recovered from a torn ACL -- if they keep the pick.
Dan Gilbert and the rest of the Cavs entourage -- all wearing bowties as well -- celebrated their latest victory, which came with 15.6 percent odds after they finished with the NBA's third-worst record at 24-58.
"For everyone in Cleveland who has supported us through these three years, I think this is for them," Dan Giblert said. "Is that right, Nick?"
"It feels good," Nick said.
Dan Gilbert called Nick, born with Neurofibromatosis (NF), a nerve disorder that causes tumors to grow anywhere in the body at any time, his "hero" after the 2011 win.
Nick, who wears thick glasses, charmed viewers before that one, responding to a question about being there by saying: "What's not to like?"
He wore a stern look this time, saying he expected he was done coming here and that he believed the Cavs would be in the playoffs next season.
They got a nice jump on that goal.
Not even having four-time winner Pat Williams on stage and 25 percent odds could get the No. 1 pick for the Magic. The team with the best odds hasn't won since 2004, when Orlando won for the third time with Williams representing them and drafted Dwight Howard.
Even heading back to their Hornets name couldn't change the luck of the Bobcats, who were lottery losers for the second straight year. Hours after owner Michael Jordan announced they were planning to get back the original nickname of the Charlotte franchise, the Bobcats fell from No. 2 to the fourth spot.
Last year, Charlotte had the best odds of winning after the worst season in NBA history but fell back one spot to second.
The lottery sets the top three teams, and the remainder of the 14 teams finish in inverse order of their record.
I'd say we have to go after Noel, don't we? We've already got a starting PG, PF and SG in the last two drafts, why not grab the best Center in the draft ... and maybe grab whatever SF pops up in free agency next year?
Noel is a little light on the offensive side, but we were absolutely bullied in the interior without Andy in there. Noel should help a ton in that aspect. Thompson is going to be our offensive interior guy, and even Andy seems to be a pretty good off-ball mover on the offensive end. I think we'll get plenty of points there. Heck, we could move Andy back to PF and have a pretty formidable interior if we need some defense.
As I said in the other thread, it's either Noel, Otto, or McLemore. The consensus will be Noel because of his defensive presence and size/athletic ability, but I wouldn't be so quick to draft him if I were the Cavs. He's very raw and needs a lot of work. Time will tell.
I'm far from a guru, but from what I know, it just makes sense for us to grab Noel. He's a defensive guy, and Brown is a defensive guy.
I am hoping that other teams needs allow for Porter to drop to the 7-9 range, and maybe the Cavaliers can trade the rest (19, 31, 32) for a pick to grab Porter. With this draft, who knows? Heck, maybe the Cavaliers might be able to even get back to 5 or 6 .... given the overall fairly flat, yet deep aspect of this draft.
I don't know. I see Noel as topping out as a Dikembe Matumbo or Larry Nance. Nice player but a number 1 overall? I would not be surpeised if we draft Porter or trade out of the #1 spot. Especially in light of his injury.
If we go Noel we probably follow up with Tony Mitchell SF out of North Texas. If we go Porter we are looking at someone like Withey C Kansas.
I don't think Noel is much better than Withey. I just don't think Noel is strong enough to anchor the middle against some of these big strong centers. Whichever way we go we probably use one of our 2nd round picks to move up from 19 to make sure we get who we are targeting with that 2nd pick.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Yes, the Cavs grabbed the No. 1 pick in the NBA lottery, but it's a lousy draft.
OK, it is a lousy draft ... so would you rather have the No. 6 pick in a bad draft? That was the worst the Cavs could have finished in this lottery. Nope, if you're a fan, you should be thrilled that your team has the top pick.
Maybe they will end up taking Nerlens Noel, the 6-11 shot-blocking machine from Kentucky. Noel also is a thin 206 pounds, coming off knee surgery that may keep him out of action until Christmas.
His offense is so raw, some scouts would say, "He could spend an hour in the gym by himself and he lucky to score 20 points ... if he wasn't allowed to dunk."
The player best suited in terms of need is Georgetown small forward Otto Porter. He's projected as a top three pick. Is there a way the Cavs can trade with No. 2 Orlando, and still grab Porter while adding a future first rounder? You can be sure that will be discussed.
Or perhaps the Cavs will think big. Real big. Huge as in the No. 1 pick and a player on the roster for a veteran forward who can score. They have the salary cap room to make that kind of move.
At this point, I'm not sure what the Cavs should do.
There is a certain appeal to Noel because he won't be 20 until next April. He can gain weight and strength and may keep growing. New coach Mike Brown wants defense, and Noel can deliver that because of his shot-blocking and leaping ability.
But I'm positive the Cavs also are thinking trade. They have long liked Minnesota's Kevin Love. Golden State may have David Lee available, although his defense is "challenged," to be nice about it. Nonetheless, he can score.
Even in a supposed bad draft, there are good players available. Remember, the Cavs also have the 19th, 31st and 33rd picks.
Owner Dan Gilbert is proud of his son, Nick, but he wants this to be the last year that the young man in the bow tie is a lottery star. Maybe he can rent Nick to another lottery team next season after snaring the top pick in two of the last three years.
Now, the pressure is on Chris Grant. The GM has the top pick, more than $20 million in salary cap room and the coach he wanted in Brown. After three of the most dismal seasons in franchise history, it's time to win some games.
Yes, Noel can help them do that, although probably not immediately. In 31 minutes a game, he averaged 9.5 rebounds and 4.4 blocks. Check his tape on draftexpress.com. You can see the raw athleticism, along with all the issues on offense.
There is a certain appeal to a front line of Anderson Varejao, Tristan Thompson, Tyler Zeller and Noel. That would give the Cavs three big men under the age of 25, along with Varejao. The fact Varejao has played only 81 games in the last three seasons puts the exclamation point on adding another big man, someone with far more upside than Mo Speights, who has a player option for next season.
But I sense the Cavs are going to aggressively market the top pick, that they know the opportunity to add immediate help doesn't come along that often. So yes, if I had to guess what the Cavs will do -- I'd bet on a trade.
Just as I wrote last week that they had the picks to trade up, the top pick now allows them to bring in talent that will finally allow them to put these lottery days in the rear-view mirror for a few years.
•His ability to pass •His ability to steal •His ability to defend the P&R •His ability to block shots at an elite level •His motor •His character •His rebounding •His toughness •His athleticism •His high basketball IQ •His ability to score in transition
I see a lot of good about him .... and I think that he can really develop over time. I see no reason why he can't add 25-30#. Hell, he might even continue to grow a little bit. His defense is already upper NBA level ready.
I look at his offensive game more as being inexperienced than limited. I see room for him to develop. I think that Z could do a lot working with him.
His injury is a concern. However, ACLs are really commonplace these days. Players return from ACLs in record time. As long as there's no complications, I see no reason he won't return on schedule.
Hmm, A trade for K-Love would be interesting ... putting Uncle Drew and Uncle Wes on the floor together. KL makes around $13M a year for a couple more years, so he'd eat a bit of our cap space, but wouldn't exactly kill it either. We could probably still sign another max contract next off-season if some sort of opportunity were to arise then.
Love has some of his own injury concerns, but at least we'd have a polished commodity. We'd have a scoring option, and easily the best rebounding tandem in the league (with Andy). He's not the best defender though.
fair enough. someone still needs to tell me how Noel is going to help our interior defense other than weakside blocks. way to thin, skinny and I worry about him trying to add weight/strength coming off an ACL injury.
he could be great, but he's likely 4-5 years away. I wonder who might be interested in trading up for him.
•His ability to pass •His ability to steal •His ability to defend the P&R •His ability to block shots at an elite level •His motor •His character •His rebounding •His toughness •His athleticism •His high basketball IQ •His ability to score in transition
Things I hate about Nerlens:
•His weight •His horrible offense •His injury
I don't know squat about basketball, but I'd take this kid and not look back. If he's not even 20 (or just barely 20), he still has growing left to do. Lots of it. Offense can be learned, and if he does all of that other stuff well, that's a gold mine.
Get him, and say some certain guy from a really warm climate comes back in a year and joins this roster..... I think that combined with the other guys on this team would be more than enough offense to tide things over until Noel learns it.
I like the idea of having Zeller, Tristan, Andy, and Noel in a rotation. I know that Noel might take a while to get back to 100%, but I think that he can get in the gym working on his upper body strength in the meanwhile. I also think that a guy like Z can help him develop his shooting.
On the other hand ...... if we could trade a few picks for a guy like Love ...... then slide Tristan to Center ...... with Zeller as the backup ..... maybe use Andy as the backup to both C and PF ..... or move him if we can ......
Imagine having a team of Kyrie, Waiters, Love, and Thompson, with a spot just waiting for a certain SF free agent .........
That would be a championship level team right there, and young/inexpensive enough to allow us to keep our depth intact.
OK, it's a dream ..... but it is plausible ..... at least to some small extent. It's not likely ..... but hey ... it could happen .....
I read that Noel has lost some weight due to inactivity from his injury. I think he played at 220 during the college season. Either way he has to put some a good amount of weight on.
Quote: I'd say we have to go after Noel, don't we? We've already got a starting PG, PF and SG in the last two drafts, why not grab the best Center in the draft ... and maybe grab whatever SF pops up in free agency next year?
Noel is a little light on the offensive side, but we were absolutely bullied in the interior without Andy in there. Noel should help a ton in that aspect. Thompson is going to be our offensive interior guy, and even Andy seems to be a pretty good off-ball mover on the offensive end. I think we'll get plenty of points there. Heck, we could move Andy back to PF and have a pretty formidable interior if we need some defense.
I think it has to be Noel, assuming the ACL turns out ok. I'd then do everything in my power (within reason) to trade #19, #31, and #33, (and maybe include next year's 1 if needed - they have potentially 2 with Sacramento's pick, as well as 3 2nd rounders) to move up into the top 5 to take Otto Porter.
Unless of course we make some sort of trade. But with the trade rules, we'd need to give up salary too. For Love, we'd need to give up something like 10m in salaries to make it work. That means Andy has to go, plus either Miles or Gee (assuming we don't want to trade a recent draft pick). I think it'd cost us #1, Andy and Gee, and maybe a future pick for Love.
Regardless of what happens, we have very few players left on the team (I think 7 not including draftees) and we'll have upwards of $30m in cap room.
Quote: Unless of course we make some sort of trade. But with the trade rules, we'd need to give up salary too. For Love, we'd need to give up something like 10m in salaries to make it work. That means Andy has to go, plus either Miles or Gee (assuming we don't want to trade a recent draft pick). I think it'd cost us #1, Andy and Gee, and maybe a future pick for Love.
Don't the Cavs have a ton of cap room? They could pretty much absorb any players salary without having to match it.
This draft is different though, in that there really aren't superstars. There are solid players, and a team in need of several solid players might be willing to make a move down to 19 to add 3 solid players in place of one solid player.
It may not be possible, but if it is possible in any year, this year might be the one.
I dread the thought of taking a project with the first pick. Better a sure thing with less upside than a huge miss on a project that MIGHT someday be a real player.... Sure do wish a Brad Daugherty was there for us. We don't need flashy, just a good solid big man in the paint. Put a guy like that on this squad and we could have a team that might last a while like the Price/Daugherty one did back in the day....I could live with that even if they don't make it all the way. Better than dealing with the Lebron circus was.
Quote: I like the idea of having Zeller, Tristan, Andy, and Noel in a rotation. I know that Noel might take a while to get back to 100%, but I think that he can get in the gym working on his upper body strength in the meanwhile. I also think that a guy like Z can help him develop his shooting.
On the other hand ...... if we could trade a few picks for a guy like Love ...... then slide Tristan to Center ...... with Zeller as the backup ..... maybe use Andy as the backup to both C and PF ..... or move him if we can ......
Imagine having a team of Kyrie, Waiters, Love, and Thompson, with a spot just waiting for a certain SF free agent .........
That would be a championship level team right there, and young/inexpensive enough to allow us to keep our depth intact.
OK, it's a dream ..... but it is plausible ..... at least to some small extent. It's not likely ..... but hey ... it could happen .....
It's gotta be Noel.
What's it take to land Love?
Love/Noel/Thompson could be dominating and would ease the pressure on Irving and Waiters defensively. With Zeller and Speights that's an impressive 5 deep down low.
Does everyone see why we tank now? We were a coin flip away last year from getting Anthony Davis. Now someone needs to try and convince me how winning a few meaningless games would be better than a big 3 of Kyrie, Anthony and Nerlens.
I get what you're saying, but this combo would be lucky to get you 55 points a night.
I agree, we already have a PF who is a rebounder, and defensive presence, but not much a scorer. I want a scorer, a finisher at SF. A guy who can move without the ball and be a beneficiary of Kyrie assists.
1) We could trade straight up for Love with just draft picks if we wanted to. There's no need to match salaries, because we are $20M below the cap.
2) The NBA draft pick values are NOTHING like the NFL draft. Draft talent and potential drops off considerably the further into the first you go. Think of the first 10 picks as the NFL's "first round", picks 11-20 as the "second round", 21-30 as the third round, and then the picks in the NBA second round as 4th-7th rounders.
3) Keep that in mind when coming up with these trade scenarios. I don't think a team is going to be willing to trade a #5 pick (an first round NFL pick) for what would be in NFL terms ... a late second rounder and two fourths (#19, #31, #33)
4) How desperate is Minnesota to unload K-Love? I didn't think they were in dire straights yet. I think it's going to take a lot more than #19, #31, #33 and some bench players. It's likely going to be a choice between Noel (#1 pick plus more) and K-Love. I don't see how we get both
Admittedly I don't know much about football when compared to others on this board, but I do know basketball much better. From my perspective I would be VERY wary of drafting Noel as opposed to McLemore or Porter. As I said earlier, Noel isn't going to give us much, if anything, offensively for at least 2-3 years. He isn't polished at all and is very weak in the post. While he is athletic and will run the floor, he will struggle in the paint against anyone of substance in the NBA. I'm not saying I'm 100% opposed to drafting him, I just think it's a big risk to take.
Quote: Unless of course we make some sort of trade. But with the trade rules, we'd need to give up salary too. For Love, we'd need to give up something like 10m in salaries to make it work. That means Andy has to go, plus either Miles or Gee (assuming we don't want to trade a recent draft pick). I think it'd cost us #1, Andy and Gee, and maybe a future pick for Love.
Don't the Cavs have a ton of cap room? They could pretty much absorb any players salary without having to match it.
Ya know, I forgot about trade exceptions. That does give more flexibility. My bad.
Quote: Ya know, I forgot about trade exceptions. That does give more flexibility. My bad.
As far as I remember ... our trade exceptions are all expired. It doesn't matter anyway, as we have $20 million in cap room. We can trade for $20M worth of contracts and don't have to match salaries on any of it.
Just wanted to say this; if Kevin Love is available you trade anything besides Kyrie Irving to get him. He does only have two years left on his contract.
Quote: Just wanted to say this; if Kevin Love is available you trade anything besides Kyrie Irving to get him. He does only have two years left on his contract.
Would 100% be all for trading that pick and other assets for Love. Could we somehow get an extension with it? Can you do that with 2 years left? I don't even know.
The Wolves are coming out and saying that Love is not going to be traded. I don't believe them one bit. I think the Cavs at the very least could make them really sweat out a deal like the one they could put together.
I really want to see what kind of magic Chris Grant can put together over the next few months.
I do like that Dan Gilbert's whole theme of the lottery last night, and leading up to it, was that he and everyone else are tired of being there.
People can say whatever they want about the guy, and some of it is probably warranted, and some not, but I know that guy is going to put his money where his mouth is when that time comes.
I say let someone else have Noel. I think he's to much of a risk to take # 1. I'd see if one of the other top 5 teams in the draft wants the pick then select between Porter, McLemore, Len.
Browns fans think we should trade down with that top pick, but if you trade down with one of the later round picks, it's the end of the world, and everyone should be fired.
Dallas wants out of the 1st round to have more cap space to go after Dwight. Also, Marion is on their books for $9.3mil next year (last year of contract) and will be 36yo.
I would love to help out the Mavs:
#13 + Marion ($9.3mil - 1yr) for #31,33, Sacramento Pick (and all the cap space)
We get the best 2 players in the deal, but it works for Dallas because they can stash those 2nd rounders in Europe without a cap hit (1st rounders carry a cap hit regardless) or they can get cheaper useful players there to fill out their roster (Franklin, Green, etc.). All while going after a Dwight/Dirk frontcourt monster.
At that point, we could turn around and shop #13+19 to get back into the top10 for Shabazz (and draft Noel #1 --- scoring SF in Shabazz, defensive in Marion + defensive center and lots of assets to try to trade for a veteran)
Under ordinary circumstances, I would agree with your comparison. However, just as the NFL draft was rather flat, so is this NBA draft. Both have a handful of really good players ..... then a whole bunch of guys who are pretty good ..... but there's not a ton of separation between say 10 and 20 like there normally would be.
I really don't see us being capable of grabbing Love .... but maybe we could trade back up for Porter after drafting Noel 1st overall.
Now bear with me here. We own a 1st round pick from the Kings ..... someday. Maybe. (From the JJ Hickson trade) Let's say that Porter falls to 7 where the Kings pick. We call up the Kings and say "Look, we'd really like to make an offer that could help us both out. You give us the 7th pick, and we'll return the future pick you owe us, and we'll send you picks 19, 31, and 32, I think that they would, at least, listen. The Kings need lots of pieces, and they could add a lot of pieces in a hurry with a deal like that. Would there be a drop-off from 7 to 19? Of course. Is it as huge a drop as in previous seasons? I don't think so. They might say no. Then again, they might just decide that it makes sense to infuse the team with a lot of young talent they can sell to the city of Sacramento, now that the team is staying put. They need a lot of help, and new bodies They have a couple of nice pieces, but man they still do have a lot of gaping holes.
Hell, last year we managed to trade up to 17 from 24 for that 24th pick, plus 33 and 34. I think that this year is weaker, but flatter. OKC at 12 might be a possible target as well, if a player we like drops. Maybe Dallas at 13. They might like a few non-guaranteed contracts. I really think that there are possibilities in this draft .... and I suspect that Grant will work them all really hard.
Quote: Can one of you guys explain how the pick we got from Memphis works?
In 2015 or 2016, if the Grizzlies' first-rounder falls between picks 6-14, the pick goes to the Cavs. Starting in 2017, if the Grizzlies' pick falls outside the top five, the Cavs then get the selection. In 2019, the pick becomes unprotected.
Quote: Can one of you guys explain how the pick we got from Memphis works?
In 2015 or 2016, if the Grizzlies' first-rounder falls between picks 6-14, the pick goes to the Cavs. Starting in 2017, if the Grizzlies' pick falls outside the top five, the Cavs then get the selection. In 2019, the pick becomes unprotected.
Can we offer a max deal this year, and then still have a max deal left for next year? I'm not sure how far under we are?
Can we do it if we get rid of Varejao's contract for an expiring in there?
Well according to this ... http://www.hoopsworld.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary ... we're in extremely good shape. The salary cap figure is supposed to be $70 million-ish this year, which gives us $28 million to play with THIS year. I don't know all the rules on how much you can offer for a max contract, as it depends on years of service with your current team and number of years total ... but it's usually in the neighborhood of $15-$20M. That gives us plenty of room to sign a guy to a max deal.
That said, we're should have $40 million in cap-space next off-season (provided we don't sign all $28 mil of our cap-space this season) ... which should be PLENTY of room to sign another guy to a max deal. We also have a number of guys that have team options, so if we need to clear further room for some reason, we could do so by not renewing those.
Quote: Who would you want to offer a max deal for this year?
Not sure that I would (Howard/Paul are worth it, but it won't be here).
I think you have to step back if you are the Cavs, and figure who is on the "championship contending team 3 years from now" - those players are - in order:
Irving Noel Waiters Thompson ?
And Thompson becomes a question mark, because he doesn't fit alongside Noel (who I think is the guy you have to take here). We need a PF/C with some offensive capabilities to put alongside Noel. There are some FAs who fit the bill pretty well:
Jefferson/Bynum/Millsap? / Maybe Josh Smith, though he's a SF?
And then you can try to trade Thompson + Varejao for a SF?
Of course, you definitely don't want to disrupt your ability to get a top 5 guy in 2014, so if you can't do that, don't worry about it.
Quote: How did we get the Grizzlies pick? Or are we still talking about the Sacramento pick?
It was supposed to be a salary cap dump for Memphis ... instead:
"Memphis sent big man Marreese Speights, guards Wayne Ellington and Josh Selby, and a future first-round draft pick to the Cavs for forward Jon Leuer."
Quote: I think you have to step back if you are the Cavs, and figure who is on the "championship contending team 3 years from now" - those players are - in order:
Irving Noel Waiters Thompson ?
Or:
Irving Waiters Thompson Porter
I am not sold that Noel is definitely the way to go.
I think that we will pick up a top notch FA in the off season (if one is available and wants to sign with us). I would love a scoring small forward. Who do you guys think that would fit that would be available?
As an aside I would love to keep Speise, Livingston, and Ellington.
It wasn't quite Bosh-esque. He actually got fouled pretty well, but it was the convulsing and head-grabbing afterwards that made you think you were watching the WWF.
that is one of my biggest worries with Noel. between his ACL injury, lack of size, and lack of offensive game, we are not likely to redeem rewards from him until that season.
that is one of my biggest worries with Noel. between his ACL injury, lack of size, and lack of offensive game, we are not likely to redeem rewards from him until that season.
We're talking weight, not production.
He'll still be a very productive player in seasons one and two, he just may not be dominant until year 3.
This is a VERY young team. The Cavs have time on their side.
I think if your goal is to win NBA championships (and not just to be a team that makes the second round of the playoffs) - then you have to take risks in order to maybe acquire superstars.
Noel is the only guy with super-star potential in this draft.
You are going to build your team around Irving, Noel, and a Max 2014 FA (James, Bosh, Anthony). Waiters is a possible 4th star, but probably not one of the big three in a championship team
You are going to part Thompson and Varejao for another player who fits with those three above.
Noel also gives us a decent chance of being in the lottery next year (especially if we dump Varejao) and improving our team one last time.
Quote: Noel is the only guy with super-star potential in this draft.
I disagree. I think McLemore and Shabazz both have superstar potential. All these guys have much more risk than usual though.
On the above point from Nas, I think he will not be a productive offensive player in the early goings as well and that is an issue as well as the fact he won't be able to guard the stronger 5's.
In the end, we might gamble on his upside. Pretty much a gamble all-around in this draft. Hopefully, our FO makes the correct choice.
Hmm....how about Andy, Tyler Zeller + #19 for Cousins (and the ever-elusive softening of restrictions on the pick they owe us). Another situation where we could draft Noel and he would only affect depth (at first).
Also, surround Cousins with Tristan, Nerlens, and Mike Brown and that might be one of his better chances at straightening himself out and playing some defense. If not, he's a lost cause.
My biggest, and most massive problem with Nerlens is his weight. I'm not too scared of his ACL. We've seen guys come back from bad injuries and become absolute monsters: Adrian Peterson and Blake Griffin. His lack of offense is meh. If Nerlens bulked up and gained serious muscle, I don't see why he can't be like Dwight Howard who has jack squat in terms of post moves.
Hmm....how about Andy, Tyler Zeller + #19 for Cousins (and the ever-elusive softening of restrictions on the pick they owe us). Another situation where we could draft Noel and he would only affect depth (at first).
Also, surround Cousins with Tristan, Nerlens, and Mike Brown and that might be one of his better chances at straightening himself out and playing some defense. If not, he's a lost cause.
Don't think that trade is close to getting Cousins -- he's much improved this last year.
Maybe Thompson + 19th + giving back their 2014 pick + Andy (through a third team)? for Cousins
I would take Noel #1 barring any problems with the knee or a team blowing the Cavs away with an offer.
Don't overthink this one. The last two drafts we passed on Jonas and Drummond. Now we have a situation where the best talent in the draft happens to be a center and fills a big need. This pick has been gift-wrapped to the Cavs... take him and don't look back.
Indy just doesn't have that guy with the needed assertiveness on offense to say, "This is a good look for me. I got this when it counts." Their best shot might be David West. That just doesn't bode well for this series for them.
But their defense (outside of being way to slow to get back a couple times) is damn pretty, though. Bring back the era of hand-checking, damnit!
Their help defense is phenomenal. THey wll lose this series in 5 games, but they play superb team defense. It's just that they don't have enough firepower on offense to ever win a title.
Quote: Their help defense is phenomenal. THey wll lose this series in 5 games, but they play superb team defense. It's just that they don't have enough firepower on offense to ever win a title.
Frank Vogel is a genuine idiot. My mind is absolutely blown away right now. He took out Hibbert twice and what happens? LEBRON DRIVES RIGHT TO THE BASKET.
I went to sleep before the 4th quarter last night and after watching the highlights of the end of the game I'm glad I did. What an idiotic coaching move and what terrible defense from the league's best defensive team. Heat will run through this series now; the Pacers' confidence will be shot.
I think it's Noel but he has a long road ahead of him. It's being reported (loosely used, of course) that he won't even be ready to play until the end of December. The guy could stand to add some weight and learn to add to his offensive repertoire. The last part will only come with time and games played, much like Tristan Thompson. Overall, as a front court defender, he's probably exactly what Mike Brown wants. Barring any catastrophic medical reports over the next few weeks or a trade the blows the Cavaliers out of the water, I'm fairly certain he will be the guy.
The more interesting thing for me is what happens to the other three draft picks (#'s 19, 31, 33) coupled with the $20 million in cap space we have. I think this is where we will see some activity. First off, I don't see the Cavaliers drafting four guys to be on the roster next year. There is just no way unless they're euro guys who continue to play overseas and we have some sort of deferred contract with them. So....
1. We do a deal like the Zeller trade last year. Trade our remaining picks with a team for a player we target.
2. Because the exponentially increased luxury tax kicks in this year, teams may have to unload veteran contracts of high caliber talent in order to not get taxed so much. Much like what Memphis did with Rudy Gay, and to a lesser extent, the deal they did with us, we could target a very good vet player with our cap space and make a deal to add a key piece leading a bunch of 2-3 year year guys- Irving, Thompson, Waiters, Zeller.
So in summation, if I had to guess now......it would be either:
1. Noel and a draft day move up to get a college player we like. 2. Noel and trading our remaining picks to get a very good veteran player, hopefully a SF.
Quote: Take the best scorer. Figure the rest out later.
so you want Shabazz or McLemore
The best scorer or the best overall player?
For me it's the best overall player. This team has recently drafted scorers in Irving and Waiters. I like them both immensely and what they bring to the table offensively, but they play NO defense whatsoever. There is only so much scoring to go around IMO when it comes to your starters and if you draft #1, obviously you draft with the intent to have this person start at some point. Waiters averaged 15pts as a rookie even though missing time to injury. Kyrie is, well, Kyrie and will get his 20+ points a game. Tristan averages a double-double and Varejao comes back.
Noel's defensive presence down low will be an added asset to a team that had no "punch" inside the paint. It will take some time, but I think Noel can work into the job of being a dominant defensive center first and have offensive significance. I think he has the best ceiling and is a perfect fit for Cleveland as they wind down Varejao's career here and aren't really sure what they have in Zeller, if anything.
i'm trying to figure out how to fit Noel on the team in the short term as I don't think he can guard 5's. Thompson was terrible guarding 5s as well. Zeller was a little better, but not a whole bunch (he has the bulk, but needs the strength - maybe he can come back stronger?).
So, if we draft Noel, then we really need Andy IMO. He and Noel can pair up and TT and Zeller can pair up. Otherwise, we have some issues matching up against any team that has a halfway decent center.
I think Waiters has shown he has the basketball abilities to become one of the most prolific offensive players moving into the future. And this is a guy that came off the bench at Syracuse. He could easily be the biggest offensive threat over Kyrie IMO. If fact, I hope that's the case. It will lessen the chances Kyrie possibly gets injured by driving to the hole so many times..Kyrie can focus on being the facilitator and taking his established mid-to-long range shots.
If Waiters ends up being a stud, Chris Grant will be deemed a GM genius....taking Thompson when no one thought he'd go that high, along with Waiters in that similar mind set. In fact Chris Grant was largely ridiculed for both picks.
Some people on this board would call him "Reach Grant"
Quote: So, if we draft Noel, then we really need Andy IMO. He and Noel can pair up and TT and Zeller can pair up. Otherwise, we have some issues matching up against any team that has a halfway decent center.
Well, if it's any consolation ... Miami seems to be doing okay with Bosh at Center, and he's not much bigger than Noel.
Quote: So, if we draft Noel, then we really need Andy IMO. He and Noel can pair up and TT and Zeller can pair up. Otherwise, we have some issues matching up against any team that has a halfway decent center.
Well, if it's any consolation ... Miami seems to be doing okay with Bosh at Center, and he's not much bigger than Noel.
well, it certainly helps that he can hit a jump shot, no?
Quote: So, if we draft Noel, then we really need Andy IMO. He and Noel can pair up and TT and Zeller can pair up. Otherwise, we have some issues matching up against any team that has a halfway decent center.
Well, if it's any consolation ... Miami seems to be doing okay with Bosh at Center, and he's not much bigger than Noel.
Bosh can score more than 5 feet out, and plays alongside two future HoFers.
Quote: So, if we draft Noel, then we really need Andy IMO. He and Noel can pair up and TT and Zeller can pair up. Otherwise, we have some issues matching up against any team that has a halfway decent center.
JMO
If we do draft Noel, he won't play for a few months due to his injury. Once he does, my guess is he comes off the bench. Varejao/ Thompson are the starting front court. Zeller and Noel battle to see who is more deserving to spell Varejao first. Zeller gets the nod because he's played, but Noel will get his chance.
2014-2015 season is when we see Noel progress if we draft him.
Maybe Noel can start out as a defensive substitute at both C and PF. He could come in and exercise his defensive prowess and contribute at important parts of the game.
Quote: If we do draft Noel, he won't play for a few months due to his injury
Couldn't that be a good thing for a rookie that didn't play a full college season? Meaning, most rookies hit a wall because they are going from 30+ games with limited travel to around 80 with cross-country travel. It would be like calling him up midseason.
Quote: Is there any realistic scenario where we could end up with Porter and Cody Zeller?
that one's not too hard to envision.
draft Porter #1 overall. maybe trade down with Orlando to get something extra, but I'm not sure they would want to do it (I think they want Burke as much or more than Noel).
trade with Dallas to obtain #13 (they want cap savings to go after Dwight - we might be able to get back Marion as well if they want more room, but our #31/33 should be enough straight-up for #13 because of their situation).
Cody should be going top10, but likely later top10. Use #13+19 to obtain Cody Zeller (conceivably, he could fall to #13, but not best to risk it if that is your goal).
Quote: If we do draft Noel, he won't play for a few months due to his injury
Couldn't that be a good thing for a rookie that didn't play a full college season? Meaning, most rookies hit a wall because they are going from 30+ games with limited travel to around 80 with cross-country travel. It would be like calling him up midseason.
I think Cody Zeller is one of the most overrated players I have ever witnessed.
I also don't like Mclemore. The guy has talent, but did you watch him in the tournament? Sorry...............don't like gaggers.
The NBA really sucks right now. The games suck. Even the playoff games. It's diluted. It's contrived. It's fake. It's more about being cool than being fundamental. It's more about show than substance.
Freaking guys can jump out of the gym, but don't know to put your ball side foot up when you are playing opposite of the ball. Guys know how to dance pre-game, but don't know how to block out. Guys know how to self promote and talk smack, but they don't know how to jump stop and get in triple threat position on the catch.
Pretty freaking lame if you ask me, but hey...................we love our highlights and the NBA is the KING OF HIGHLIGHTS! Oh my goodness............did you see that...he jumped over a car????
This is the best the NBA has been since the late-80s/early-90s. Even since the 2004-2005 Suns came and gave the game the kick in the ass it needed, the NBA has been in a new Golden Age IMO.
The team unity, efficiency, speed, wings, and guards of the today's NBA are just so much more watchable than the pounding of the post and rugged defense of the late-90s/early-2000s.
I know these statements are controversial to "hardcore" fans, but whatever. I've been watching basketball my entire life and I'm not afraid to admit that I prefer the playing styles of Denver, Golden State, or San Antonio (who is as "fundamentally-sound" as any team in the league) to teams like, say — Chicago or New York.
If they take a 209 pound Center that has NO shooting ability whatsoever they are CRAZY. I can't believe all the love for an injured, stick figure. You don't gamble with the first pick. Certainly not a guy that skinny.
I don't watch a lot of NBA, but I can tell you it's a million times better than the state of college basketball. At least there's non-stop action in the NBA. In the college game, you've got teams scoring under 20 points in a half regularly. They pass the ball in a mindless, random pattern for 30 seconds and then shoot a 3. Give me the NBA in a heartbeat over that junk (and of course, the NCAA officials rejected a reduction in the 35 sec shot clock because they didn't think it was needed).
I know the NBA has a too much ISO-basketball, or look-at-me-as-I-try-to-get-on-ESPNs-top-plays type of basketball, but at least they're trying to put on a show.
I admit, I didn't watch much basketball after Lebron left. I was ticked off. After he flamed out against Dallas I started watching again. I was okay he won a title, though it still rubbed the Cleveland in me the wrong way. I watched a lot of this years playoffs and they have felt fun. Golden State had a nice run with Curry becoming a star, it was interesting to watch the Thunder revert into the Lebron Cavs (one star trying to carry a team), Memphis playing great, the Clippers being the Clippers, Nate Robinson throwing up as Derrick Rose was 90% and fighting through "mental rust" and how great the Atlanta Hawks played in their series (okay, the last one was a complete joke).
The NBA is FANtastic. Okay, too much. It's more entertaining that anything else on (that's not the NHL playoffs).
Quote: If they take a 209 pound Center that has NO shooting ability whatsoever they are CRAZY. I can't believe all the love for an injured, stick figure. You don't gamble with the first pick. Certainly not a guy that skinny.
It sounds like you equating him to Shaun Bradley or Manute Bol. While they all might have the same general body type, NN has a way more athletic game. I'm not saying he's the obvious choice, but if he can put on weight, he could be the best player in the draft (and that's ultimately what you want, the best player you can take when you're selecting).
Yeah, there isn't any "special" talent in this draft ..... and more of the upper tier players still have major questions about them. I think that Noel has some elite level potential defensively, and with a defensive head coach, he could develop into a real stopper in the middle. With scorers at PG and SG, and a developing TT at PF, if we can find a solid contributor at SF, we can make it work very well with a C who is more defensively oriented. Plus, he can score down low. He has room to develop there. Maybe in time he also develops a little short jumper or hook shot. If he could develop a hook shot he could be unstoppable down low. With his height, and those long arms, combined with his overall athletic ability, I think that he can add a decent amount of good weight and still be highly effective. I also think that he could be potentially deadly as a pick and roll partner for Irving or Waiters.
In short, I think that Noel is the best potential player for us. He's not a finished product. He needs a professional strength coach. He needs to work on his offensive game. However, I think that he can be a highly effective defensive presence as soon as he's able to get on the court, and can contribute with a decent offensive game down low.
Quote: In short, I think that Noel is the best potential player for us. He's not a finished product. He needs a professional strength coach. He needs to work on his offensive game. However, I think that he can be a highly effective defensive presence as soon as he's able to get on the court, and can contribute with a decent offensive game down low.
I can't believe some of u guys questioning Noel. The kids gonna play in the 240 range. Jeezuz.
Noel's a lighter version of Dwight Howard. ALL of his shots are slams. He swats away everything. He's a rebounding machine. He SUCKS at the FT Line. Carbon copy. And he's a shorter version of "Z". Without the outside shot.
There are no Shaq's in the NBA anymore. One piece we're lacking is an inside presence. And we're staring him in the face and people want to pass? CRAZY.
Quote: If they take a 209 pound Center that has NO shooting ability whatsoever they are CRAZY. I can't believe all the love for an injured, stick figure. You don't gamble with the first pick. Certainly not a guy that skinny.
You don't settle for lesser talent either.
Who cares if he can't shoot? Shaq, Dwight and Bynum have done fine.
I hope Noel's the defensive monster you guys are making him out to be, because if we take him we're still lacking a legit second or third scorer (depending on how Waiters develops). We gave up 101 ppg last season. We'll need to slash that number by about 10 points because we probably won't be scoring more than 92-93 ppg.
Barring some shocking free agent signing or a big trade this summer, this will be the first time Mike Brown coaches a team without a big time, top-level, mega superstar.
We all love Kyrie and think he could maybe be a superstar one day, but he's not there now, and he's never going to be at Lebron or Kobe's level. Regardless, he's not there yet. He has a lot to prove.
I'm just really curious to see what it looks like. I also like that Brown is being handed young, offensive-minded players, instead of one trick ponies or offensive players in or past their prime who never played a lick of defense (here's looking at you Wally)
Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Zeller + #1, plus maybe another decent player out of the rest of the picks we have this summer. Those guys are still young and can be shaped into good defensive players.
I hope Noel's the defensive monster you guys are making him out to be, because if we take him we're still lacking a legit second or third scorer (depending on how Waiters develops). We gave up 101 ppg last season. We'll need to slash that number by about 10 points because we probably won't be scoring more than 92-93 ppg.
If Waiters doesn't develop it's all moot point. He needs to become an at least 18 PPG efficient % scorer. If Nerlens can become a shot blocking monster and average 4-5 blocks a game that will dramatically cut down the amount of points against us.
Quote: I'm just really curious to see what it looks like. I also like that Brown is being handed young, offensive-minded players, instead of one trick ponies or offensive players in or past their prime who never played a lick of defense (here's looking at you Wally).
Yes, I'm interested in this too. This is sort of the situation Pops had when he started coaching, with Tim Duncan coming out of college. He had a team he could coach a system to and get them to buy into it 100%.
Quote: I'm just really curious to see what it looks like. I also like that Brown is being handed young, offensive-minded players, instead of one trick ponies or offensive players in or past their prime who never played a lick of defense (here's looking at you Wally).
Yes, I'm interested in this too. This is sort of the situation Pops had when he started coaching, with Tim Duncan coming out of college. He had a team he could coach a system to and get them to buy into it 100%.
I hope Mike Brown does work with Alonzo Gee. Kyrie and Dion remind me of Manu and Parker. Problem is that we don't have a Duncan offensively. Nerlens ceiling on defense is Duncan defensively.
Did you watch the end of the season (when Gasol was healthy)? He was a triple double machine. On top of that D'Antoni was horrible and didn't know how to use him. If I could get him for less than the 1st overall pick I would do it. And his contract expires at the end of the season so he is a tradeable asset.
Anybody have thoughts on Anthony Bennett forward UNLV? I haven't seen much of him but hear he is a potential top 5 pick. Can he play SF or is he strictly a PF? How is his outside shot?
Quote: Anybody have thoughts on Anthony Bennett forward UNLV? I haven't seen much of him but hear he is a potential top 5 pick. Can he play SF or is he strictly a PF? How is his outside shot?
Quote: Anybody have thoughts on Anthony Bennett forward UNLV? I haven't seen much of him but hear he is a potential top 5 pick. Can he play SF or is he strictly a PF? How is his outside shot?
Quote: Anybody have thoughts on Anthony Bennett forward UNLV? I haven't seen much of him but hear he is a potential top 5 pick. Can he play SF or is he strictly a PF? How is his outside shot?
Saric/Muhammad (though I'm wishy-washy on Muhammad). Saric is worth the risk.
and if you stay at 19 you look at:
Rice Jr/Karasev/Crabbe/Hardaway Jr
Get a shooter who can come in and score points off the bench (a future sixth man) - and also space the floor. Rice Jr gets a bump over the others because he's a superior defender.
I'm with you. Noel #1. He is the BPA in this draft. Anyone else is just a big of a bust with a lower ceiling. If we can trade for quality Vet as well then do it and then next year go after one of the Big FA's and give them a Max deal.
I'm not an expert but I think Noel's athleticism makes him a better NBA prospect. That and every Mock draft I spent 2 minuets looking at had Gobert going past Lottery selections.
Athleticism and timing. Noel is sensation at both, Gobert struggles. e.g. Gobert's vertical is measured at 29 inches.
Gobert at #19 might be worth it (even with Noel at 1) -- he can sit in Europe for a year or two, and maybe will be decent trade bait later (or could be a 3rd key big)
Quote: I'm not an expert but I think Noel's athleticism makes him a better NBA prospect. That and every Mock draft I spent 2 minuets looking at had Gobert going past Lottery selections.
that's what I'm questioning. Noel is shorter with nearly 6" less in reach and Gobert's main draws are that he is extremely fast, agile, and overall athletic with a frame that can add significant strength on his already 240lb figure.
the only thing I can find is that people question Euroleague competition (and rightfully so but it's not like 1/2 season of college ball, an ACL injury, and a slight frame w/ only 206lbs right now aren't also significant).
Noel went to Kentucky..... I'm dead serious, if Noel was coming out of Arkansas and had never had all of that high school hype, he might not be a lottery pick consideration.
It's no secret Dallas wants Dwight. I've heard & read they want to trade Marion for cap space. I wonder if we can offer 19 and both 2nd rounders for Marion and 13?
Quote: It's no secret Dallas wants Dwight. I've heard & read they want to trade Marion for cap space. I wonder if we can offer 19 and both 2nd rounders for Marion and 13?
I think both 2nd rounders and the Sacramento or Memphis pick would be more appealing to them. Less "hard" money on their cap this offseason.
Quote: It's no secret Dallas wants Dwight. I've heard & read they want to trade Marion for cap space. I wonder if we can offer 19 and both 2nd rounders for Marion and 13?
Marion expires at the end of this year right?
In that case it's a pretty reasonable deal for both sides.
Quote: It's no secret Dallas wants Dwight. I've heard & read they want to trade Marion for cap space. I wonder if we can offer 19 and both 2nd rounders for Marion and 13?
Marion expires at the end of this year right?
In that case it's a pretty reasonable deal for both sides.
Marion is owed $9.3mil next season, the last year of his deal.
Honestly, I think we're giving up almost too much in that deal -- taking 9.3M off of somebodies books is a pretty big deal, and we're one of the few teams that can do it.
This is also thought of as a weak class - so I wouldn't want to offer a future 1st round pick (that we'll probably eventually get in the 10-15 range) for a 13 pick now.
I'd say 31 for Marion + 13 might be enough straight up. Not sure which other teams could beat that deal?
there is also the speculation that the Lakers want to unload Pau Gasol for 2nd rounders and something in the frontcourt. So, Andy + 33 might end up being Pau Gasol.
because we have 19,31, and 33, we could end up being able to play Dallas and LAL against each other in their bids to free up cap space for Dwight. of course, that means he's likely to go to GS or Houston.
Quote: there is also the speculation that the Lakers want to unload Pau Gasol for 2nd rounders and something in the frontcourt. So, Andy + 33 might end up being Pau Gasol.
because we have 19,31, and 33, we could end up being able to play Dallas and LAL against each other in their bids to free up cap space for Dwight. of course, that means he's likely to go to GS or Houston.
Why do we want Gasol on this team? One more year on the contract, he's old, he won't be any good at a point we compete, he's overpriced.
In the previous deal, Marion was the cost to get a #13. That makes sense to me....not sure why Gasol could be a benefit.
Quote: there is also the speculation that the Lakers want to unload Pau Gasol for 2nd rounders and something in the frontcourt. So, Andy + 33 might end up being Pau Gasol.
because we have 19,31, and 33, we could end up being able to play Dallas and LAL against each other in their bids to free up cap space for Dwight. of course, that means he's likely to go to GS or Houston.
Why do we want Gasol on this team? One more year on the contract, he's old, he won't be any good at a point we compete, he's overpriced.
In the previous deal, Marion was the cost to get a #13. That makes sense to me....not sure why Gasol could be a benefit.
Have to weigh his age and figure out if last season was more the LAL situation or his deteriorating skills.
If we think LAL situation, then he's an under-rated defender who can also play the stretch-4 position. Allows us to draft a Noel or Gobert as a help defender while he guards the more physical centers. On offense, he's an excellent facilitator while also being a gifted shooter and finisher.
He only has 1 year left. But, I'd take a chance on him for a 2nd round pick + the 1 year left we have with Andy (last year of his contract too).
The Washington Post reports that the Cavaliers are considering bucking expected top pick options Ben McLemore and Nerlens Noel to select Georgetown forward Otto Porter:
But there is a possibility that Porter, arguably the most NBA-ready player among the top prospects, might not be around when the Wizards pick third. A source with knowledge of the Cavaliers' thinking said Porter is under consideration to go No. 1.
“I definitely see myself up there,” Porter said last week in Chicago, adding that he believes he can flourish at the next level. “My versatility. I think that's definitely going to show when I get to the NBA. My ability to rebound, bring it up the court, make something happen or set up the play. Anything that it has in store for me, I think my versatility is going to carry over.”
via Wizards move up but could still miss out on Otto Porter Jr.
The Cavaliers won the lottery earlier this week and have their pick of the top prospects. Noel gives them a legit big man to pair with Tristan Thompson (and allow them to move him to power forward). McLemore gives them a scoring wing, which means they can move Dion Waiters to small forward. And Porter immediately slots in at small forward, a position of need, and can help them defensively and on the glass along with that versatility he talked about.
Cleveland's also reportedly open to trading the pick. They have a number of options, which is good. But sometimes having options only means more opportunities to make a mistake. In a weak draft that they need to hit, the Cavs have to be careful with what they do with that No. 1 pick.
The Post reports the Wizards are also interested in Porter at No. 3.
I can see the Cavs trying to use this as a smokescreen; however, I also would question the intelligence of such a move. The NBA Draft is not like the NFL Draft. In other words, let's say the Cavs can acquire a 2nd Round pick for a move back to #3. A 2nd Round pick is basically peanuts in the NBA and would probably not be worth such a big gamble. In the NBA you have to get the stars that you want as early as possible. If they fall in love with someone who would be a top 5 pick, just take him at #1.
Really impressed with the way Indiana kept their composure after the loss on Wednesday and blowing the 13-point lead tonight. They're looking totally gassed by the ends of these games though...I hope they can keep it up for three or four more.
Quote: Really impressed with the way Indiana kept their composure after the loss on Wednesday and blowing the 13-point lead tonight. They're looking totally gassed by the ends of these games though...I hope they can keep it up for three or four more.
Quote: Yep. I just worry about the way Miami was able to clamp down on defense and hold Indiana scoreless for 4 or 5 straight minutes in the fourth quarter.
You're correct and it terrifies me. San Antonio is the only team in the playoffs left that can score, but I worry about them defensively.
Something that has really stood out to me in the Pacers series. Battier is a dirty player that fouls every time down the floor. He can't guard David West or Hibbert in the post WITHOUT fouling. He couldn't guard Boozer down there either without fouling, flopping and every other dirty trick in the book. He's not getting away with it this series.
Battier is outmatched in this series, which is why he found himself on the bench last night down the stretch. He has the ability to hit an open 3 point shot and can guard a slower, more deliberate guard. But anyone with too much size or quickness is trouble for him.
Game 3 is going to be incredibly tough. Indiana needs to lock down and hold strong at home. If Indiana magically goes up 3-1 Miami will collapse in game 5. It amazed me how calm Indiana was when lebron came out and played like a freaking animal.
Fine, you guys convinced me. Noel's the guy. Should be hilarious to watch. Can't WAIT to see him try to bang bodies with guys that outweigh him by 50 or more pounds. The MINUTE we select him we better start pumping him full of Steroids and HGH.
Quote: McLemore gives them a scoring wing, which means they can move Dion Waiters to small forward.
That's legitimately asinine.
Don't shoot the messenger.
I agree. I want Waiters right where he is.
I wonder if the Magic might want to trade up to #1?
Porter would seem to fill the biggest need on this team. He is a legitimate SF, and one of very few in this draft. He has solid size at 6'8", and can do a little of everything. Maybe then we look at a big at 19 ..... and maybe see if we can trade our 2 second round picks for something. Who knows? One think I do know if that Chris Grant is as likely to do something completely unexpected, as he is to do what people think that he'll do.
No I know. I'm just saying...Waiters is 6'4" in tennis shoes. I can't see him defending any small forward down low let alone LeBron in the post.
And as to Noel vs. Porter.
I think Porter is a perfect fit as the third best player on a championship caliber team. I like everything he does. Seems like a willing defender too. I mentioned it before but I think he's a rich man's Kawhi Leonard.
You know who Noel reminds me of most? A straight out of high school Kevin Garnett. 6'11" 215 lbs. Can he ever develop into a KG. I would lean no but it's not out of the question to me.
I honestly don't know who I'd take right now. I think Porter will be a guy that helps good teams win championships. And I think Noel has a higher, superstar level ceiling.
I would lean towards Porter if I were the Cavs. He's an all-around player, more polished, and would also be a position of need. I think he's the safest player in the draft.
He's listed as 6'8 205. I agree he will need about 20 more pounds, but that is not nearly as big of a deal as Noel's body at this point. Their positions and style of play are so different.
But in all honesty I'm not "down" on Noel because of his weight. I'm more or less looking at it from strictly a basketball perspective. He'll have to improve his skill set greatly whereas Porter won't.
Quote: Fine, you guys convinced me. Noel's the guy. Should be hilarious to watch. Can't WAIT to see him try to bang bodies with guys that outweigh him by 50 or more pounds. The MINUTE we select him we better start pumping him full of Steroids and HGH.
Well, neither the NFL nor the NBA even test for HGH, so that shouldn't be much of a problem. That's probably best saved for another thread though.
Anyway...
I'm really impressed by the Pacers team and organization. They have assembled a really nice team and have done it in a small market and without tanking. They have kept their cool despite some really dirty shots and unbelievably bad calls. If they could just a point guard with some handles that would be great
I inexplicably missed the first 2 games of Spurs/Grizzlies.. turning game 3 on now....
Quote: I would lean towards Porter if I were the Cavs. He's an all-around player, more polished, and would also be a position of need. I think he's the safest player in the draft.
If you want to win championships in the NBA you need 2-3 superstars. You have to hit homeruns - I agree that Porter is a safer double, but Noel is much more likely to be a superstar.
Quote: I would lean towards Porter if I were the Cavs. He's an all-around player, more polished, and would also be a position of need. I think he's the safest player in the draft.
If you want to win championships in the NBA you need 2-3 superstars. You have to hit homeruns - I agree that Porter is a safer double, but Noel is much more likely to be a superstar.
That's what it comes down to for me. Give me a potential superstar over a "safe pick."
That one was a little different. Oden was a dominating force in college that led his team to a championship game. His only concern and unltimate demise was his health.
Quote: i would see if another top 5 team wants to make a trade.
This is like the NFL draft this past year but worse. How many teams do you think feel the same way we do? There is a consensus that this is a weak draft, but people think we can trade down. I don't get it.
Quote: i would see if another top 5 team wants to make a trade.
This is like the NFL draft this past year but worse. How many teams do you think feel the same way we do? There is a consensus that this is a weak draft, but people think we can trade down. I don't get it.
I'm not saying that it can be done but i would sure try. Maybe another team likes Noel a lot.
Indiana has nothing but scrubs off their bench. They need to keep Granger and have him as a 6th man next year. Seriously Young, Hansbrough and Mahimi? They have a strong starting 5 though.
Easiest money I have ever made when it comes to gambling. The media was hyping the Pacers up for two straight days. While they do (usually) play great half court defense, they have zero chance to beat the Heat in a series.
Quote: Who has home court advantage in the finals? Eastern or Western conference? Does it matter which teams make the finals?
Heat have it if they make it.
I really hate the 2-3-2 format. I know they are trying to cut down on possible cross-country flights, but there is so much time between these finals games that it doesn't matter. 2-2-1-1-1 is the best and only format that should be used.
NBA Free Agency: Cleveland Cavaliers have options at small forward beyond drafting Otto Porter By David Zavac on May 27 2013, 8:00a @davidzavac 95
Jesse Johnson-USA TODAY Sports
The Cavaliers have two first round draft choices in the upcoming NBA draft, and at least $15 million worth of room under the salary cap. Cleveland was one of the worst teams in the league last year, so the flexibility is important. An upgrade at small forward is necessary. If the Cavs choose to use free agency to improve, who is available?
There are many, many Cleveland Cavaliers fans that spent the NCAA basketball season falling in love with Otto Porter of Georgetown. It makes sense. He is a smart and young player that showed tremendous improvement from his freshman to sophomore season, particularly in his three point shooting, has great length, can pass, and doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective. Given the Cavaliers woes at small forward, Porter seemed like he would be a perfect fit for a team likely picking between three and eight in the lottery. Well, we all know now that the Cavaliers won the lottery and now have the ability to Nerlens Noel, another player who fits a position of need and likely has a lot more upside. But if the Cavaliers don't draft Porter, who will start at small forward next season? While people have spent time denigrating the 2013 free agent class, there are some pretty good options.
First, though, we should take a look at who we are trying to replace, and why we are trying to replace him. Alonzo Gee holds a special place in the hearts of many Cavaliers' fans that have hung in there over the past three seasons. He was a developmental league cast-off that came to Cleveland, made the most of his opportunity, and got himself a guaranteed contract. He is now a millionaire. After giving serious minutes to at least a dozen fringe NBA guys, Gee is the only player who made had both the talent and drive to make it. Unfortunately, a guy that deserves a bench role at best played the second most minutes of any Cavalier last season. This is a recipe for sadness. Gee played 2500 minutes, shot 31.5% from three point range, rebounded poorly for his position, was a disaster (a hilarious disaster) in transition, and showed a lack of understanding of fundamental defensive concepts. It was fun watching him use his length to slow down point guards and shooting guards, and he was our best option guarding small forwards, but the Cavaliers simply can't give that many minutes to a small forward who can't shoot from distance and finishes with a Player Efficiency Rating of 10.5.
And this leads into the point I have made time and time again. The Cavs don't need a small forward with a PER of 20. They just need to stop giving so many minutes to guys who aren't even close to league average. Here are a few guys who would represent major upgrades to Gee, and will likely be free agents this summer.
Tempting, but probably not
Andre Iguodala - Iguodala has a player option for next season worth over $16 million, but he will still likely opt out. Look for him to get a three year extension, around $40 million. Denver likely wants him back, and has the ability to re-sign him for that type of a deal, but teams like the San Antonio Spurs will be after him as well. I am not sure he would consider Cleveland, but he instantly becomes the team's best perimeter defender. While he is getting a little older, a lot of his defensive prowess comes from a really high basketball IQ, and I think he does have 3-4 years left of top quality defense. He is an excellent passer, but struggles to shoot from distance. He is a good fit, but not a perfect fit. Would hurt Cavs financial flexibility moving forward.
Paul Pierce - Bob Finnan is reporting that Pierce's contract will probably be bought out and Chris Grant will make inquiries about bringing him in. As a veteran who is still an alright defender and can shoot a bit from distance, it isn't the worst idea. I can't imagine Pierce not going to a contender, though.
Andrei Kirilenko - Also likely to opt out of his option next year, would probably get a deal of 3 years and $30 million or so. Great passer, defender, and can't shoot from three. He is now 31 years old. A huge upgrade from Gee, but not a perfect fit for Cleveland.
Alright, now we are getting somewhere
Chase Budinger - He just turned 25, is a tremendous athlete, is coming off of an injury and could probably be had for a pretty cheap deal that preserves financial flexibility, Budinger is a fringe NBA starter. In his third season in Houston it looked as though he might have turned the proverbial corner. He shot 40% from three, rebounded well for his position, and was a solid perimeter defender. He has never averaged more than 22 minutes a game, so minutes at the 3 position would still be available for Gee and CJ Miles, but if he plays well (he has never played with a point guard like Kyrie Irving) he could warrant a larger role. The question is whether his three point shooting from his age 23 season was a fluke or not, but I feel he represents an upgrade over Gee regardless.
Dorell Wright - 27 years old, and coming off a tough season in Philadelphia, Wright is a guy who is both a solid shooter and defender. He might be one of the most underrated players in the NBA, as even through Philly's troubles, he finished the season with a PER of 16. In his last four seasons, he has yet to finish a season with a PER of under 14.5. Conrad was ahead of the curve on Wright, and frankly, he looks to be a perfect fit. You can add Wright an maintain financial flexibilty.
Martell Webster - 26 years old and coming off of his best season in the NBA, he is a guy that I would urge some caution on. His three point shooting the last four years, starting with the most recent one: 42%, 34%, 42%, 37%. Pretty darn good, with some relatively serious fluctuation going on. He is a very good defender, helping Washington as a team to have a top 10 defense in the NBA, impressive for any lottery team. He is a better rebounder for his position than Gee, though he is not elite by any stretch. I expect him to be much more expensive than Wright, and I am not sure the pay-off will be that much better.
Others: Corey Brewer (can't shoot from distance (though decent from the corner)), Matt Barnes (don't believe he has a good relationship with Mike Brown), Mike Dunleavy (I would like to guard the perimeter at some point).
I know I didn't get to all the guys who are available, and there are of course trade targets as well. But keep in mind that Otto Porter is going to be a rookie next season, and we know firsthand how hard that can be. I am pretty confident all of the guys I wrote about here will be better than Porter next season. Moving forward, that likely won't be the case, but you can bring in a guy like Wright or Budinger who can help get Cleveland to the playoffs next year, all while allowing Nerlens Noel, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, and Kyrie Irving to develop. There is no need, yet, to take the safe option in a draft. Number one picks don't come along that often. Upgrades to Alonzo Gee are all over the place.
Would not consider any of the three bigger names at all. None are a fit for this team right now, in my mind. Budinger doesn't interest me that much. Wright intrigues me greatly though.
Will there ever be a small market team that replicates the same success as San Antonio? They play boring non iso basketball, the superstars they have lack personality and they play in a boring city, but they win. It's kind of incredible how their success has had a greater stretch than any other team.
Really hope San Antonio finishes this and the other series goes 7 games. Give the Spurs Big 3 as much rest as humanly possible. Hopefully the Pacers just beat the hell out of Lebron.
I agree I'd like the Spurs to win tonight, but I'm afraid the Heat series will not go past 6 games, and possibly 5. They broke the Pacers' confidence last night.
Quote: Will there ever be a small market team that replicates the same success as San Antonio? They play boring non iso basketball, the superstars they have lack personality and they play in a boring city, but they win. It's kind of incredible how their success has had a greater stretch than any other team.
OKC has a chance if their two superstars play at a high level well into their thirties. Westbrook will have to re-invent himself later in his career in order to that, though, as the athleticism he so heavily relies on will eventually start to fail him.
But yeah, San Antonio's run is incredible. I really admire the way Popovich and their three stars all transformed their style to ensure success. They've gone from a slow-ball, post-play reliant style of play to an up-tempo, three point shot reliant style of play.
Oh, and I know casual fans who don't think San Antonio's current style of play is boring at all, but then they might have a little more patience than even the average "casual fan." I'm not sure.
Quote: They've gone from a slow-ball, post-play reliant style of play to an up-tempo, three point shot reliant style of play.
Honestly this part is what amazes me the most. Most people assume older = slower. However Pop has made the offense run through Parker. That says a lot about Timmy too. Dude is a 4 time champion and the GOAT PF but is unselfish. Manu is a future HOF but will still come off the bench.
It's going to be a sad day when these guys call it quits. For the record I find the basketball they play sexy. They are a LOT more run and gun than in years past.
I hope people got to see Duncan on D right there. He gave Randolph the baseline to basically dig his own grave. I hate to just over praise guys. However this is the difference of basketball IQ between a Tim Duncan and a Blake Griffin. It's not some overused cliché. Blake let Z Bo go to work where he wanted to go early and it would be over. Blake thought he could guard Randolph 1 on 1 once he got the ball. I'll take Randolph 9/10 in that scenario. Timmy or someone else has dictated where Z Bo goes.
Quote: Honestly this part is what amazes me the most. Most people assume older = slower. However Pop has made the offense run through Parker. That says a lot about Timmy too. Dude is a 4 time champion and the GOAT PF but is unselfish. Manu is a future HOF but will still come off the bench. .
Unfamiliar with the term GOAT PF, can you explain?
Quote: It's amazing when you look back at Duncan's career, and how he's avoided the big injury. That's incredible for a big man.
20&11 guy for his career with 4 rings (and a good chance at 5) who played great defense.
agreed.. and his consistency has been incredible as well. Granted his minutes have been reduced in recent years, but if you look at his per 36, they are pretty much the same for the last 15 years or so. He's also one of the most unselfish NBA players I've ever seen. You see it on the court but he has also been underpaid relative to other NBA stars for a long time and has never made a stink about it.
Hopefully the Spurs can pull it off. I had kind of figured that the Heat would breeze through the East, and I still think that will happen, and that the West champs would be beaten and battered. The Spurs kind of lucked into a relatively easy run with the Kobe-less Lakers (don't think they would have been much of a problem even with Kobe), and Westbrook going down before they could have potentially met in the WCF. Rest those vets up... they are going to need it.
You're right. Timmy and Kawhi are going to need a lot of rest. Hopefully Timmy can just turn back the clock 4/7 times and destroy Miami inside. Tony Parker will get his, but I'm really worried about Wade in that series.
Yeah Wade is interesting. Just when you think the guy is done and only good for making a fool of himself in press conferences and the occasional flying elbow, he goes off and reminds everyone that he's actually one of the best SGs ever. Battier is scrappy and dirty as hell. Andersen is shooting 100% this series... wtf?? I know he gets a ton of good looks if not open dunks playing on the Heat but a lot of those shots are contested by Hibbert and co. I'm not a conspiracy guy by any stretch but Stern and the NBA LOVE the Heat... just saying. There is just so much that can go wrong when playing vs Miami... and I haven't even mentioned Bosh or Lebron yet.
Quote: You know who Noel reminds me of most? A straight out of high school Kevin Garnett. 6'11" 215 lbs. Can he ever develop into a KG. I would lean no but it's not out of the question to me.
I get the comparison but KG was light years ahead of Noel offensively... KG averaged over 25 ppg in high school and Noel, even with all of his physical advantages, averaged about 12.5 ppg...
Quote: You know who Noel reminds me of most? A straight out of high school Kevin Garnett. 6'11" 215 lbs. Can he ever develop into a KG. I would lean no but it's not out of the question to me.
I get the comparison but KG was light years ahead of Noel offensively... KG averaged over 25 ppg in high school and Noel, even with all of his physical advantages, averaged about 12.5 ppg...
KG always had a jump shot and some unstoppable post moves when he was young. KG is also the GOAT at defending the P&R. Nerlens might become as good as him defensively but it's asking too much to be like him offensively as well.
Wouldn't Serge Ibaka be a little bit more fair a comparison?
I like Noel a lot, I think he has more potential coming out then Ibaka does, but I agree that I think his game is limited.
I think the Cavs have to factor in their FA plans into this.
If they think they have a more than good chance at getting Lebron back, or some other big time free agent, I think this is a good move.
If they don't think so, or are unsure, I think they need to look at another guy who can hover around 20 ppg, but also has some size. They are small all over the floor.
I wouldn't want to be Chris Grant right now. Tough job on this one.
If I had to bet, I think they just take Noel because he's the best talent, and worry about any issues later. It's the safer move, because you're just going by the book. People get fired for not taking the best guy available.
Plus, they are kind of flexible with all these other picks. I love hearing how deep this draft is. That makes me happy when I realize we have another 1.
Quote: I think they just take Noel because he's the best talent,
That's the thing, he's not the best talent. He's the best athlete so people are hoping he can become the best talent.... which is far from a given.
Quote: It's the safer move, because you're just going by the book. People get fired for not taking the best guy available.
I agree that if he busts you can at least say that you went with the prevailing opinion... but that's not what GMs get paid to do. So from a CYA perspective he might be the safest pick, but from a "Who is the best player 5 years from now" perspective, he is far from the safest pick.
Quote: I wouldn't want to be Chris Grant right now. Tough job on this one.
It is, it is also a golden opportunity. You have a young team with some decent young talent on it, you have 4 picks in the top 32 including #1 overall, you have a ton of cap room space... Whatever this team is 3 or 4 years from now, people will look back at this offseason as the primary reason... (good or bad)
Quote: I think a more important question is, "would you draft Serge Ibaka first overall?"
If he's the best player in the draft? Then yes.
I assume you're trying to say Ibaka isn't worthy of the #1 overall. But if there are only Darko's and Kwame Brown's below him, you take the best player and move on.
This is why the Pacer's aren't a legit Championship threat. Why in god's name are they shooting jumpshots from the baseline right now? WADE HAS TWO FREAKING FOULS RIGHT NOW! ATTACK HIM YOU IDIOTS! Honestly, this is why Miami will always cruise through the east. There are too many stupid teams in the east.
Ugh. It's semi-frustrating watching them. Like they go through these stretches where they're just crashing the boards, feeding the monster inside (Hibbert's looked angrily confident- I tuned in about mid 3rd), and being savvy. Those Pacers make me think they can steal the series.
Then there's the rapid fire fouls, sketchy officiating (shot clock violation was hilarious), and the stagnation.
And Wade can't stay at 25% from the floor.
One fun fact. Lebron has never shot higher than 80% from the foul line for a season of his career.
Joey Crawford needs to seriously consider hanging it up. He's just old and missing obvious things. It's just getting worse and worse the last few years.
I go hope that the Pacers are somehow able to knock off the Heat. I would love to see 2 actual teams, rather than a superstar driven vehicle, play in the finals.
Quote: I go hope that the Pacers are somehow able to knock off the Heat. I would love to see 2 actual teams, rather than a superstar driven vehicle, play in the finals.
Duncan is the "Big Name" but Parker has played like a superstar.
I am admittedly a conspiracy theorist when it comes to professional sports, but it seemed to me like the refs were blatantly giving Indiana calls down the stretch. With the WCF already over, the NBA needs something to be happening until June 6. Why not make it a series but have the Heat still win.
Quote: I am admittedly a conspiracy theorist when it comes to professional sports, but it seemed to me like the refs were blatantly giving Indiana calls down the stretch. With the WCF already over, the NBA needs something to be happening until June 6. Why not make it a series but have the Heat still win.
there were alot of shaky calls down the stretch, but they were going both ways. there's no way that ball hit West, for instance.
the foul calls were horrendous (both ways again). ticky-tack on some, then muggings allowed on others. the 5th foul call on LeBron was probably the worst call of the night (the "moving" pick when Stephenson just got caught moving in the wrong direction).
I saw a lot of bad calls last night. The shot clock violation against Indy after the ball clearly hit the rim was the worst, but they got some good calls themselves down the stretch.
Quote: I am admittedly a conspiracy theorist when it comes to professional sports, but it seemed to me like the refs were blatantly giving Indiana calls down the stretch. With the WCF already over, the NBA needs something to be happening until June 6. Why not make it a series but have the Heat still win.
there were alot of shaky calls down the stretch, but they were going both ways. there's no way that ball hit West, for instance.
the foul calls were horrendous (both ways again). ticky-tack on some, then muggings allowed on others. the 5th foul call on LeBron was probably the worst call of the night (the "moving" pick when Stephenson just got caught moving in the wrong direction).
That missed call on the 24 second clock not being reset was horrible. The ball flat out clanked off the rim, it wasn't even like it grazed it. How do you miss that call?
How is Joey Crawford assigned to a conference final game?
INDIANAPOLIS -- Lo and behold, everyone wants the referees to be perfect now. In playoff games that are so close, so poised to turn on one play, everyone demands perfection when it matters most.
GAME 4 RECAP Pacers 99, Heat 92 The Pacers wanted Joe Crawford to get the call right on a 24-second violation in the fourth quarter when Roy Hibbert's shot clearly hit the rim. Crawford got it wrong; everyone saw it.
LeBron James wanted the benefit of the doubt on his sixth personal foul when he was called for an illegal screen against Lance Stephenson with 56 seconds left in a four-point game. He wanted it when he was called for a reach-in on Roy Hibbert earlier in the fourth quarter. He wanted the officials to appreciate that he had gone straight up to contest Paul George's driving layup with 5:38 left -- his fourth foul.
Guess what, everybody on both sides? If you're so concerned about the officials getting it right when it matters, why are you spending so much time trying to trick them into getting it wrong?
Why are you doing this?
In this otherwise compelling and wonderful Eastern Conference finals between the Heat and Pacers -- which goes back to Miami tied at 2 after the Pacers' 99-92 victory in Game 4 on Tuesday night -- we've got ourselves a theme.
Several, actually, but they're all related.
Other than Miami's dominance in Game 3, the games have been nail-bitingly close. The outcome can swing on a single possession, a single free throw or a missed boxout.
GAME 4 GRADES Pacers B-minus, Heat D-plus, officials big fat F-minus It can swing on a whistle, too. So before anyone on either side wants to complain about calls not going their way, about the referees not giving them the benefit of the doubt, do yourselves a favor.
Stop trying to trick them.
You can't have it both ways.
"I don't believe it was an offensive foul," James said of his moving screen against Stephenson, on which he was trying to free Dwyane Wade for a clean look with Indiana leading 96-92. "I was going to set a screen and I felt like I was stationary. And D-Wade rejected the pick-and-roll. Lance actually ran into me."
I have mixed feelings about the call, because on one hand, James clearly stuck his left leg out to make sure he picked off Stephenson. That's an illegal screen, plain as day. On the other hand, Wade chose to go the other direction -- away from the screen -- so no advantage was gained. In that regard, it's a play-on situation.
But these are the same officials who've spent six weeks in this postseason trying to avoid getting duped by all manner of fake and exaggerated contact -- especially in this series, and especially in this game. You're expecting them to look the other way on an illegal screen because no advantage was gained? That's a lot to ask.
It's especially a lot to ask when coming from the league's best player, the transcendent basketball force of our time, when only 30 hours earlier he had said that flopping was "not even a bad thing," and added, "Any way you can get the advantage over an opponent to help your team win, then so be it."
What comes around goes around, is the way I look at it.
"I believe I was straight up-and-down on Paul George's drive -- the and-one," James said. "Hibbert, they reversed a call on Hibbert, called a foul on me on that one. And at the end of the third, they called a push off [against] David West.
"It was a couple of calls that I didn't feel like were fouls, personal fouls on me," James said. "That's how the game goes sometimes."
Indeed.
Let me make myself clear: This isn't just about James. His greatness is unquestioned, his talent otherworldly. It's also about West, who at one point coordinated with James in a game of synchronized flopping when both players ran into each other and flailed to the floor.
It's also about Stephenson, one of the heroes of the game for Indiana with that glorious 3-pointer from the corner at the third-quarter buzzer on a cross-court inbound pass from George Hill, not to mention some gritty defense on James. But in the first quarter, when Stephenson got tangled up with Ray Allen, he cocked his head back violently while pretending that Allen had elbowed him in the face -- which, of course, he had not.
So please, if you're devoting so much time and effort to duping the officials into getting calls wrong, don't whine when you've suddenly decided to play fair and they make a mistake.
"Last time LeBron fouled out of a playoff game was last year in Boston," Erik Spoelstra said. "So it doesn't happen very often."
That's true, by the way. It's only the second time James has fouled out a playoff game, and he managed to do it this time with four fouls in the fourth quarter.
"Dwyane was in foul trouble the whole game," Spoelstra said. "[Chris Bosh] was in foul trouble. You have to overcome a lot in the playoffs."
I know everybody hates the referees, and to be honest, this game was not a career highlight for Crawford, Rodney Mott and Derrick Stafford. But in these flop-tastic NBA playoff games, the officials have a lot to overcome, too. They have to overcome 47 minutes of players trying to trick them into getting calls wrong and then are expected to be perfect when it matters.
"We've just got to play ball," Stephenson said. "Don't worry about calls. Don't worry about fouls. Just attack and make buckets."
Can everyone involved listen to this unexpected wisdom from Lance Stephenson -- including Lance Stephenson -- and apply it for the rest of this series? Can all the floppers give us our game back?
We've had three games decided by a combined 12 points and two tactical masterpieces -- one by Miami in moving James into the post to dominate Game 3, and the response from Indiana in closing off his success down low in Game 4. On Tuesday night, we had two supporting players, Stephenson and Mario Chalmers -- each with 20 points -- playing crucial roles.
We had Hibbert putting up another brilliant performance with 23 points on 10-of-16 shooting with 12 rebounds -- and showing up in the interview room, God bless him, wearing a yellow T-shirt instead of some fashion experiment.
We had Allen and Stephenson hitting clock-beating 3-pointers, and James dueling with his understudy, George.
But we had something else that's detracting from the enjoyment of it all -- players trying to trick the referees and thousands of people chanting about flopping. Indiana fans not only know their basketball, but apparently they know how to use the Internet, too.
"He's a flop-per," the crowd chanted to James and Wade throughout the game.
Is this what we want? Doesn't the game deserve better?
It does. It's a best-of-3 series now between two teams that are very good at basketball and shouldn't need the fake stuff. Bad calls happen. Bad calls caused by players tricking the refs into making bad calls shouldn't happen.
And neither should whining when it all backfires. And that goes for everybody.
I saw a lot of bad calls last night. The shot clock violation against Indy after the ball clearly hit the rim was the worst, but they got some good calls themselves down the stretch.
he was putting the foot down though in order to make his frame bigger and Stephenson was clearly going in the wrong direction from the dribbler.
anyways, not nearly as blatant as Allen (i think it was him - maybe Wade?) bringing his knee up into the midsection of George Hill when he beat him on a drive (thankfully, that one was called correctly).
Back to Cavs Draft pick talk ... I'm noticing that more than a few mock Drafts have us taking either Porter or McLemore now, rather than Noel. A McLemore pick raises eyebrows, because we already drafted a SG last year ... but some seem to think he's the most NBA ready guy in the draft, and Dion would be better suited to come off the bench, like he did in college. Taking Porter would at least suit a need though.
I'm waiting to see what John Hollinger's "formula" has to say. He's created some sort of formula that takes college stats and uses them to predict if the player will have NBA success. While it's obviously not perfect, it's pretty cool to see the results. His formula predicted both Thompson and Waiters as "undervalued" according to their predicted draft value, and lo-and-behold, those are guys we ended up taking.
Quote: Back to Cavs Draft pick talk ... I'm noticing that more than a few mock Drafts have us taking either Porter or McLemore now, rather than Noel. A McLemore pick raises eyebrows, because we already drafted a SG last year ... but some seem to think he's the most NBA ready guy in the draft, and Dion would be better suited to come off the bench, like he did in college. Taking Porter would at least suit a need though.
I'm waiting to see what John Hollinger's "formula" has to say. He's created some sort of formula that takes college stats and uses them to predict if the player will have NBA success. While it's obviously not perfect, it's pretty cool to see the results. His formula predicted both Thompson and Waiters as "undervalued" according to their predicted draft value, and lo-and-behold, those are guys we ended up taking.
That doesn't surprise me. I'm not sure if it was here or somewhere else, but I read that Chris Grant uses something similar to what baseball does with sabermetrics.
Most of the analytics/draft projection stuff has Noel as the clear cut #1 and Porter as the clear cut #2. Since those also happen to be needs, I would be surprised if the Cavs pick anybody else. If his knee checks out I say the Cavs pick Noel #1 75%, Porter #1 15%, 10% every other scenario (trade or Cavs pick another player.)
I saw a lot of bad calls last night. The shot clock violation against Indy after the ball clearly hit the rim was the worst, but they got some good calls themselves down the stretch.
It was clearly a foul.. that said, if they called illegal screens every time they occur, every 4/5 player in the NBA would be fouled out by halftime. It seemed like an odd time to call it and I think the only reason they called it was because the defender almost went down from being undercut.. I don't care which way Wade went after that, it was advantage Heat.
9 times out of 10 screeners are moving with the defender in the NBA... I wish they would call it consistently and more often and force the players to fix it.
Quote: Most of the analytics/draft projection stuff has Noel as the clear cut #1 and Porter as the clear cut #2.
Your own site that you linked has McLemore as #2, as does many of the draft sites I've seen. I don't really see anyone as "clear-cut" #1 or #2. I see a few guys that are in the top 3 or 4 with a lot of question marks though.
Quote: 9 times out of 10 screeners are moving with the defender in the NBA
and add college to that one too. the last few years if the screener wasn't moving then it was a shock (credit Coach K and Stevens for abusing that method to the point that everyone else copied it).
Quote: Most of the analytics/draft projection stuff has Noel as the clear cut #1 and Porter as the clear cut #2.
Your own site that you linked has McLemore as #2, as does many of the draft sites I've seen. I don't really see anyone as "clear-cut" #1 or #2. I see a few guys that are in the top 3 or 4 with a lot of question marks though.
When I said Porter as #2 I meant based on specific stat based projection models. They ALL have Noel as #1 and most have Porter as #2. Lots of good info on the realcavsfans Noel thread (not linking here because I'm not sure if it's against the rules to link to another board?)
I'm not just a numbers guy, I believe in ALL sports some combination of classic scouting and analytics is best, but for the sake of talking about the latter, here is one of the better ones: http://shutupandjam.net/draft-rankings/
No doubt the Cavs have their own system, which is very likely better and more detailed, but it is based on the same principles. What I find interesting about these specific ratings is the precendent the last 2 years. http://shutupandjam.net/2013/05/24/draft-model-update/
Irving and Davis, respectively, were #1 by miles in the last 2 drafts. Last year it had Davis, Beal, Waiters as 1, 2, and 3. Thompson was 6th on this ranking in 2011 (Kawhi Leonard at 2 seems WAY out of place.... until you watch the Spurs play that is.)
I saw a lot of bad calls last night. The shot clock violation against Indy after the ball clearly hit the rim was the worst, but they got some good calls themselves down the stretch.
It was clearly a foul.. that said, if they called illegal screens every time they occur, every 4/5 player in the NBA would be fouled out by halftime. It seemed like an odd time to call it and I think the only reason they called it was because the defender almost went down from being undercut.. I don't care which way Wade went after that, it was advantage Heat.
9 times out of 10 screeners are moving with the defender in the NBA... I wish they would call it consistently and more often and force the players to fix it.
I admit that I was surprised the refs called it, but Lebron stepped on his foot while setting the screen. That should be a foul every time in my opinion.
Back to the draft a little ...... I wonder if the Cavaliers would work out a trade with the Kings for Cousins?
Imagine this ...... The Cavaliers return the 1st round pick the Kings owe them. They then trade the Kings the #1 overall pick as well. (or maybe the 19, and the 2 seconds instead, if that would somehow work, which I doubt)
Anyway, the Cavaliers would add a legitimate starting, scoring Center ....... who, granted, needs to mature emotionally. However, he would be a true scoring option down low. It would also give the Kings a net gain of 2 first round picks, including the 1st overall in this draft.
That would give us a starting 5 of Irving, Waiters, Cousins, Thompson ...... and someone. Yeah, there is still that "someone" aspect at SF. However, we would still have the other 3 picks to address that spot. Maybe we could take that kid from Russia who look sot have a nice shot to play SF. (Sergey Karasev) Maybe we take a kid like Alan Crabbe, and play him in a smaller lineup. He is a nice scoring option, and we could keep Gee as a defensive specialist. Who knows? However, having a starting 4 out of 5 consisting of Irving, Waiters, Cousins and Thompson would be quite good.
Chad Ford is reporting the Cavs are one of the teams interested in Cousins.
Of course, the Kings don't even have a GM and it's all conjecture at this point, but I would take a chance on him. Zach Randolph and Rasheed Wallace were bad seeds that needed some guidance to get on a good path too. Cousins is so talented that he is worth a chance.
I don't think Noel + their very protected 1st rounder is enough to get him though.
Quote: Chad Ford is reporting the Cavs are one of the teams interested in Cousins.
Of course, the Kings don't even have a GM and it's all conjecture at this point, but I would take a chance on him. Zach Randolph and Rasheed Wallace were bad seeds that needed some guidance to get on a good path too. Cousins is so talented that he is worth a chance.
I don't think Noel + their very protected 1st rounder is enough to get him though.
Hell then make it a return of their pick, the 1st overall, plus the 2 second rounders. lol I would say to throw in Varejao, but I doubt that they would be interested. I would hate to give up Zeller, but maybe .......
I do think that Cousins is someone the Cavaliers will definitely look into though. He would be a nice add to the team.
I cannot see the Cavs being serious about Cousins. The guy is a headcase and cancer in the locker room. You need a strong, veteran personality to keep him in the game and his head on straight. I cannot see the Cavs having that personality added, and then still adding Cousins to that. He's talented, but he's still a huge risk.
Quote: If I'm the Kings, I don't make that trade without getting at least 2 lottery picks and Tristan Thompson.
If I'm the Cavs, I don't make that deal.
I would not trade Thompson. I would trade the 2 firsts as outlined, and the 2 seconds from this year's draft.
It's worth a shot to make the offer and see where it goes.
Most likely nowhere.
We had two high seconds last year, and moving them amounted to 7 slots in the middle first round of a weak draft class.
Look at the Kings roster. They would have to be insane to ship Cousins without getting back something in the front court. And a project player with no offensive game coming off injury isn't going to cut it.
Who's going to give up 16/10 a night for Nerlens Noel, a possible mid-first rounder and a few seconds?
I just don't see it.
I'd ship Zeller in a second, but if I'm the Kings I don't think I take that. I'd ask for Thompson.
Then again ... Grant's ripped some people off in trades.
Also ... I could be wrong on this, but can we give them their pick back and trade them a first from this year, or does that violate the Stepien Rule? If they fell below 12 next year, we'd have to give them what would be our pick, but we'd have trouble doing that if we'd already traded a first the year before, no? We might have to do a swap pick deal, which again, isn't enough for Cousins, IMO.
Quote: Back to Cavs Draft pick talk ... I'm noticing that more than a few mock Drafts have us taking either Porter or McLemore now, rather than Noel. A McLemore pick raises eyebrows, because we already drafted a SG last year ... but some seem to think he's the most NBA ready guy in the draft, and Dion would be better suited to come off the bench, like he did in college. Taking Porter would at least suit a need though.
I'm waiting to see what John Hollinger's "formula" has to say. He's created some sort of formula that takes college stats and uses them to predict if the player will have NBA success. While it's obviously not perfect, it's pretty cool to see the results. His formula predicted both Thompson and Waiters as "undervalued" according to their predicted draft value, and lo-and-behold, those are guys we ended up taking.
That doesn't surprise me. I'm not sure if it was here or somewhere else, but I read that Chris Grant uses something similar to what baseball does with sabermetrics.
Yeah, Thompson and Waiters both had great numbers in that regard.
Haven't seen anything definitive yet, but Ford and a few others have said that Noel will likely have the best numbers in that regard.
it depends on how you use the numbers. the generic ones will have Noel at the top, but his usage rate and area where he took shots was extremely limited. Otto Porter will be next on those lists, but Grant has also stated that he scouts extremely close to see how explosive the players are (Waiters last year - he had scouts at practice watching) and Otto doesn't pass that test IMO.
it's an interesting decision and the 'advanced' stats we see are only 1st level stats. the real interesting ones are the ones where they add all the variables. it'll be an interesting leadup for sure.
Quote: Otto Porter will be next on those lists, but Grant has also stated that he scouts extremely close to see how explosive the players are (Waiters last year - he had scouts at practice watching) and Otto doesn't pass that test IMO.
I agree. Porter was notably unathletic in the limited videos I saw of him. What immediately stood out to me with Noel was how springy he was. When it was time to jump he was up in the air high, and he was up in the air fast.
I'm not a college basketball guy at all, I only check out what is relevant to the Cavs, and an interest when I can catch a Buckeyes game. I just hope we're not missing out on a James Harden with Porter.
Quote: Otto Porter will be next on those lists, but Grant has also stated that he scouts extremely close to see how explosive the players are (Waiters last year - he had scouts at practice watching) and Otto doesn't pass that test IMO.
I agree. Porter was notably unathletic in the limited videos I saw of him. What immediately stood out to me with Noel was how springy he was. When it was time to jump he was up in the air high, and he was up in the air fast.
I'm not a college basketball guy at all, I only check out what is relevant to the Cavs, and an interest when I can catch a Buckeyes game. I just hope we're not missing out on a James Harden with Porter.
the part that I do love with Noel isn't just that he's in the air fast, but when he lands, he's either moving to his next target or jumping back into the air as fast as any prospect I have ever seen.
Quote: Also ... I could be wrong on this, but can we give them their pick back and trade them a first from this year, or does that violate the Stepien Rule? If they fell below 12 next year, we'd have to give them what would be our pick, but we'd have trouble doing that if we'd already traded a first the year before, no? We might have to do a swap pick deal, which again, isn't enough for Cousins, IMO.
Shouldn't violate the Stepien Rule. As far as I know, the rule only prohibits a team from trading it's own pick in consecutive years.
The question to ask if you're Sacramento is if you realistically believe that you'll be conveying the pick in the next 2-3 years.
ok, i've been overall negative on Noel, but I do think he's a decent prospect and a candidate for our pick (just not the slam dunk that alot of people think he is).
so, let's start today being more positive about Noel because he does have a bunch despite my worries that we will have to be patient with him and wait 3-4 years before really seeing what he can do. here are the things I like about him:
(1) Fast twitch reactions. He can react and move as quick as any big man that has come out recently. Great timing on his jump and he is either moving or back in the air for a 2nd jump once he lands.
(2) Work ethic. All have regarded him as an incredible worker and great kid going back to his high school days. I have seen nothing to counter it and Grant was at practices, so he knows firsthand if it is true.
(3) Finishing ability. I mentioned elsewhere the need for explosive finishing ability even if the result is not all dunks at the NBA level. Noel certainly has it.
(4) PnR defense. He's so quick with good instincts and with Andy as a tutor, he should be devastating as a PnR defender. He can switch to the guard when needed or step up on the screen and recover to the post.
(5) Fastbreak ability - goes with #3 above, but also he is fast and can get out on breaks and cause havoc. His ability to get steals and blocks can also setup fastbreaks for others (particularly if he hones his passing ability a bit more).
(6) Roster flexibility - it is pretty easy to devise a roster spot for him no matter what other players we pickup. If we pickup a big center, then he can guard PFs and provide help defense. If we pickup a stretch-4, then, in time, he'll be our center and guard the point of attack. If we pickup wings, then he can do a bit of both.
(7) Age - an important point as his youth means he has more time to grow and learn and develop.
Aside from the injury stuff, my biggest concern is if this guy can develop that 15-20 foot shot that keeps big men in the league forever. I have seen the guy only a few times.
I don't think that it's a given that a player can just put the work in and develop that. Some guys can and some guys never will.
Quote: he never will. think marcus camby (hopefully without the early career injury issues)
If that's the case, that's definitely fine, but I think you almost have to bank on being able to land someone in FA this summer or next summer. They need another really good player, and I just have this feeling that the worst case scenario for next year is that the Cavs barely miss the playoffs and get bad lottery odds.
Quote: just the cav's luck. they win the number #1 pick and no superstars in the draft this year.
yeah, we have had the 1st pick 3 times and, so far, only have gotten to pick LeBron and Kyrie
3 times in 10 years. That's amazing when you think about it. Never had the full favored odds to win it any of those times either (2003 was split odds with Denver)
Amazing enough I saw on Twitter that Lebron and Duncan are the only number one overall picks to win titles in the last 20 years. You have to factor in the dynasties and the rich staying rich in the NBA though.
It's not quite as surprising when you look at the list of players drafted first overall. Add to that the facts that #1 picks usually go to really bad teams and that its not that easy to turn around an NBA franchise.
Then again, the first overall pick in the first season beyond the 20-year cutoff date won four rings.
Quote: just the cav's luck. they win the number #1 pick and no superstars in the draft this year.
yeah, we have had the 1st pick 3 times and, so far, only have gotten to pick LeBron and Kyrie
3 times in 10 years. That's amazing when you think about it. Never had the full favored odds to win it any of those times either (2003 was split odds with Denver)
Amazing enough I saw on Twitter that Lebron and Duncan are the only number one overall picks to win titles in the last 20 years. You have to factor in the dynasties and the rich staying rich in the NBA though.
Not to nitpick but you must mean there haven't been any other number one picks, picked in the last 20 years, to win a title. Shaq, Robinson, and Olajuwon all won titles inside that window but were picked outside of it. It is still somewhat surprising, given how much 1 or 2 star players can impact a game.
Yeah that's what I meant. #1 draft picks of the last 20 years have no titles outside of Duncan and Lebron. There have been quite a few bums out of those picks though.
Quote: just the cav's luck. they win the number #1 pick and no superstars in the draft this year.
hey, I would have rather had the #1 pick last year with Davis or next year for that matter with Wiggins. The Cavs have gotten very lucky though in the lottery. Just look back to the 2011 draft. What a joke of a draft that was save for 1 player.. that is why we were able to get an unprotected lottery pick (!) for what amounted to a salary dump. That is unheard of. Oh and we jumped from 8 to 1 to get Irving. Don't believe everything you read. Williams was never a serious discussion, that pick was always going to be Irving whoever ended up with it.
This year I think Noel and Porter are both great fits and worthy of the #1 pick (Noel especially.) No they aren't at Kyrie or Anthony Davis level as prospects but still very good and both fit short and long-term needs. Seriously think about if we drew 3rd or worse and both were off the board... that would suck.
One thing about Noel that is highly underrated - he put up an absurd 1.19 PPP on the pick-and-roll at Kentucky. An Irving-Noel pick and roll combo could be deadly.
This series has a weird 2009 ECF type of vibe. Miami has zero answer for Indianas big guys (Howard and Lewis for Orlando). Indiana has a point forward that can shoot (Turk for Orlando). Although having Wade and Bosh help
I'm liking the aggression and confidence Hibbert is playing with. I mean, I look at the Pacers and get comfortable with the idea of a traditionally big team on the interior. With some good coaching up on the rotations and help defense, you can neutralize the advantage some of these teams have on the perimeter.
That said, I'm just not too hopeful the Pacers can knock off the Heat. I mean that last sequence on offense explains why. When they get stagnant on offense, don't move the ball, and blow layups while Miami is putzing around, too, they don't build up a lead like they should. That easily should have been a ten point advantage out of the game they should be trying to close the quarter with.
The fact that the Pacers right now have 29 points and they've all been scored by Paul George or Roy Hibbert speaks volumes.
Please please please let Andersen and Hansbrough duke it out.
Edit: If that doesn't prove which way the refs are leaning, nothing does. Andersen knocks Hansbrough to the ground and shoves him in the chest when he gets back up, and Hansbrough gets a tech? Come on, man.
Was that really a double-tech? And I almost feel bad for Hansborough. He was annoying at UNC, but now he's just the nerdy kid on the playground getting bullied at the base of the slide.
Didn't know jack about Paul George going into this series. I'm on the bandwagon now. Dude's hit some tough shots to bail the Pacers out of inept possessions.
The Heat will win this game by at least ten. Indiana really shot themselves in the foot in the first half with missed layups and now their turnovers are killing them. Just turned it off. Looks like Spurs/Heat
Yeah. They needed all those lost points. They are getting absolutely swarmed on and don't know how to respond. The ball handling has been nonexistent and they've allowed too many easy buckets.
And Spoelstra is just so mediocre. Why didn't he play Haslam more? He's a more athletic mid-big who's just so much more active. You can have Lebron or him guard 4's.
The Pacers are also just anything but built to come from behind.
