Taking the totality of a college player's stats is the opposite of taking a complete picture.
How did the player develop? Did he improve from year to year? Did he become more capable as he developed?
Just my $0.0000000213562514232 worth, and replying to no one in particular.
You're exactly right. The hard thing with this kid is that Oklahoma's offense was so good, he has too small of a sample size.
Under 40 yards he averaged about 15 attempts/year and had 75%, 92%, 86%, then 94% his senior year
Extra points he averaged about 78 attempts/year and had 97%, 97%, 100%, then 99% his senior year
Over 40 yards he average 4.5 attempts/year and had 83% then 0%, then 67% then 50% his senior year.
I just hope lack of opportunities (1 every 2-3 games) was the reason that he isn't very good beyond 40. His leg is supposed to be a cannon, so distance isn't it.
So what, now your trying to say that you don't know exactly what you meant when you made that statement? And I'm not upset but after seeing both guys kick in College Gonzalez was clearly the better prospect. FYI Gonzalez went 7/9 for Arizona last year after he healed with both misses being from 50+ yds.
So what, now your trying to say that you don't know exactly what you meant when you made that statement? And I'm not upset but after seeing both guys kick in College Gonzalez was clearly the better prospect. FYI Gonzalez went 7/9 for Arizona last year after he healed with both misses being from 50+ yds.
Gonzoles failed in Cleveland as a pro, and that is far more relevant. He was not very good the year before. I hope he does well, but he was terrible in Cleveland.
The jury is out on Joseph, and there is no data on Siebert.
OU fan here. I don't know whether he was a good pick in the 5th or not, but I'll point out a few things.
I think the problem many posters here are having (given that they are only reading a few lines of stats with no other context), such as Dawg66, is that they are only considering the sum total of his 4 years kicking, freshman to senior year. Now it's not completely unreasonable to consider how consistent someone was over 4 years and how good they've been going back to age 18, but how a player developed and how good they ultimately were during their last season is pretty important, if not what is most important. For instance, Mayfield had a lot of turnovers his freshman year at Texas Tech, but did anyone care? No, because everyone rightfully assumed he grew and improved over his college career. Some players don't even play their freshman or even sophomore years.
Now since people are wanting to compare the college careers of Gonzalez and Seibert, take a look at this stat: In his junior year and senior year combined, Zane Gonzalez was 49 of 59. That's 83%. Austin Seibert in his junior and senior year combined was 34 of 40, or 85%.
Something happened in his Sophomore year, he started missing on FGs midway through the season, including some shanks and knuckle balls. It seemed very psychological and thankfully didn't last long. Notice he was 68% that season. A lot of OU fans started calling him SIGH-bert online. But, he was only 19 or so and it was probably a good learning experience on keeping his head in the right place. Seibert was very clutch later in his career. Also, I wouldn't really question his leg strength, as it seemed that virtually every kickoff went out of the back of the endzone.
People are going to have a difference of opinion and some will demean that opinion for one's own agenda. That's just the way it works around here...
My thoughts align with yours on Gonzalez. I do not think he "failed" here. He was fine his rookie season. Last year we released him after two games and then it came out that he was injured. There are less place kickers in the league than quarterbacks, if you've nailed down a job you're going to do whatever it takes to keep that job, even if that means kicking injured.
2 years ago we went with Patrick Murray as our kicker. He also was injured after 2 games and we went in a different direction. He never caught on anywhere else. He might have kicked the entire season here, but the injury cost him his opportunity. Gonzalez caught on with the Cardinals a few games after we released him and he did fine.
I think Gonzalez will have a fine a career. I also think we'll find our kicker whether it's Siebert or Joseph or whomever. I think it's hard to judge a kicker after 1 or 2 seasons. It's also an adjustment coming to the NFL. Phil Dawson pretty much sucked his first 3-4 years for us and I recall many people wanted to get rid of him. I don't think he even attempted a 50 yd FG until his 4th season. Dawson probably could have gone the way of Murray or some other kicker who played 2 years and was done, but we just stayed with him. And now everyone thinks he's one of the greatest kicker's we've ever had.
This draft was a weak one, there was some value in round 2 but that’s about it. I think us taking a kicker, 1. Tells us what we already know, we were walking on eggshells with Joseph and lost too many games on easy-ish kicks and 2. This draft sucked and it was the perfect draft to give up our 17 pick.
I think the problem many posters here are having (given that they are only reading a few lines of stats with no other context)
Quote:
Now since people are wanting to compare the college careers of Gonzalez and Seibert, take a look at this stat: In his junior year and senior year combined, Zane Gonzalez was 49 of 59. That's 83%. Austin Seibert in his junior and senior year combined was 34 of 40, or 85%.
Exactly what you are doing , you compared their stats for their Junior and Senior years yet you failed to take into account that Seibert hardly kicked anything longer then 39 yards because when he did he stunk. Even on kicks less then 40 yds Gonzalez was the more accurate kicker 92% to 87%.
100% on extra points these days is a very rare thing. I think Tucker is the best at this, but even the best kickers in the league miss extra points... let's look...
I think the problem many posters here are having (given that they are only reading a few lines of stats with no other context)
Quote:
Now since people are wanting to compare the college careers of Gonzalez and Seibert, take a look at this stat: In his junior year and senior year combined, Zane Gonzalez was 49 of 59. That's 83%. Austin Seibert in his junior and senior year combined was 34 of 40, or 85%.
Exactly what you are doing , you compared their stats for their Junior and Senior years yet you failed to take into account that Seibert hardly kicked anything longer then 39 yards because when he did he stunk. Even on kicks less then 40 yds Gonzalez was the more accurate kicker 92% to 87%.
...who cares? College was college. Gonzalez had some bad shanks and lost his confidence here. He didn't seem to be able to shake it. Even when healthy since leaving us, he's missed some chippies.
I'm all for bringing in a winner. Get all the losing stink away from the team that we can.
Joseph did okay for us results-wise, but I always held my breath. He had some ugly kicks. He missed one in week 17 in a game we lost by 2.
Supposedly, Seibert is good at getting height on his kicks at the line, so we shouldn't have low kicks getting blocked, and he has a smooth, consistent operation.
We have a new special teams coach. It seems he might have wanted a new kicker. Having a bigger legged kicker for kickoffs might be nice as we might try to kick high and pin people deep. Joseph really seemed to have to drive the ball low to get distance, and if I recall correctly had a couple trickle out of bounds before the end zone.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Even when healthy since leaving us, he's missed some chippies.
No he didn't, he went 7/9 with Arizona last year with both misses being from 50+ yds. The dude hit 75% of his kicks his rookie year which is better then what Phil Dawson did with us his first season.
People are going to have a difference of opinion and some will demean that opinion for one's own agenda. That's just the way it works around here...
My thoughts align with yours on Gonzalez. I do not think he "failed" here. He was fine his rookie season. Last year we released him after two games and then it came out that he was injured. There are less place kickers in the league than quarterbacks, if you've nailed down a job you're going to do whatever it takes to keep that job, even if that means kicking injured.
2 years ago we went with Patrick Murray as our kicker. He also was injured after 2 games and we went in a different direction. He never caught on anywhere else. He might have kicked the entire season here, but the injury cost him his opportunity. Gonzalez caught on with the Cardinals a few games after we released him and he did fine.
I think Gonzalez will have a fine a career. I also think we'll find our kicker whether it's Siebert or Joseph or whomever. I think it's hard to judge a kicker after 1 or 2 seasons. It's also an adjustment coming to the NFL. Phil Dawson pretty much sucked his first 3-4 years for us and I recall many people wanted to get rid of him. I don't think he even attempted a 50 yd FG until his 4th season. Dawson probably could have gone the way of Murray or some other kicker who played 2 years and was done, but we just stayed with him. And now everyone thinks he's one of the greatest kicker's we've ever had.
Just my $0.0000000213562514232 worth.
You can make stuff up, but that does not make it true. Gonzales failed. He was not good and had to be replaced.
Rationalize all you want, but the truth remains, and history doesn’t change.
What makes you say that Gonzalez failed? Most kickers struggle a little bit their 1st year or 2 in the league. By your reasoning we should have cut Phil Dawson after his first year with us.
People are going to have a difference of opinion and some will demean that opinion for one's own agenda. That's just the way it works around here...
My thoughts align with yours on Gonzalez. I do not think he "failed" here. He was fine his rookie season. Last year we released him after two games and then it came out that he was injured. There are less place kickers in the league than quarterbacks, if you've nailed down a job you're going to do whatever it takes to keep that job, even if that means kicking injured.
2 years ago we went with Patrick Murray as our kicker. He also was injured after 2 games and we went in a different direction. He never caught on anywhere else. He might have kicked the entire season here, but the injury cost him his opportunity. Gonzalez caught on with the Cardinals a few games after we released him and he did fine.
I think Gonzalez will have a fine a career. I also think we'll find our kicker whether it's Siebert or Joseph or whomever. I think it's hard to judge a kicker after 1 or 2 seasons. It's also an adjustment coming to the NFL. Phil Dawson pretty much sucked his first 3-4 years for us and I recall many people wanted to get rid of him. I don't think he even attempted a 50 yd FG until his 4th season. Dawson probably could have gone the way of Murray or some other kicker who played 2 years and was done, but we just stayed with him. And now everyone thinks he's one of the greatest kicker's we've ever had.
Just my $0.0000000213562514232 worth.
You can make stuff up, but that does not make it true. Gonzales failed. He was not good and had to be replaced.
Rationalize all you want, but the truth remains, and history doesn’t change.
I'm not quite sure what you think is being made up.
We have a difference of opinion is all. You think he failed, I do not.
I would suggest knowing the facts yourself before accusing someone of "making stuff up." That happens far too often around here.
By himself lost us what 3 games last year? That is a failure.
Oh for sure... complete failure, especially since he only played 2 games for us last year. Maybe we could have won 3-4 more games if he actually played.
Even when healthy since leaving us, he's missed some chippies.
No he didn't, he went 7/9 with Arizona last year with both misses being from 50+ yds. The dude hit 75% of his kicks his rookie year which is better then what Phil Dawson did with us his first season.
I was thinking the extra points. Though, 2/3 I guess were while still with us and possibly injured.
He's gone now. Hard to hang on to an injured kicker.
Here's hoping Seibert can give us that prime Dawson consistency.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
"He's very, very competitive... I haven't sees a kicker that's as competitive as he is."
Not worried about kicking from distance... "He's got a canon".
After missing a FG that would have prevented an overtime (a game they won anyway)
"I let my teammates, my coaches and sooner nation down tonight," he wrote. "I want to thank all my teammates and coaches for battling through the adversity and getting the win. Everyone goes through adversity at some point in life. It's how you respond to the adversity that shows true character and I will not let this kick define me."
What makes you say that Gonzalez failed? Most kickers struggle a little bit their 1st year or 2 in the league. By your reasoning we should have cut Phil Dawson after his first year with us.
Evidence that he failed is that he was cut after a poor rookie season and a terrible start to last season.
He was not a good kicker for the Browns and cost them wins. I held my breath with every kick. I thought he was a good draft choice as well. But he was not reliable.
What makes you say that Gonzalez failed? Most kickers struggle a little bit their 1st year or 2 in the league. By your reasoning we should have cut Phil Dawson after his first year with us.
Evidence that he failed is that he was cut after a poor rookie season and a terrible start to last season.
He was not a good kicker for the Browns and cost them wins. I held my breath with every kick. I thought he was a good draft choice as well. But he was not reliable.
Hmmm.... like I said, everyone has their opinion.
He didn't have a "poor" rookie season. He hit on 25 of his 26 XP attempts. And he wasn't cut because he had a terrible start to the season. He was cut because he was injured. But don't let the facts get in the way.
Let me go on record now that I HATE this pick. I hope the kid goes on and lasts 15 to 18 years with the Browns and sets every record he can. BUT I don't think he will. IMO he won't even make the opening day roster.
With that being said GM it's likely that no matter who we pick in the 5th round is gonna make it. But it's highly more so that a kicker or punter taken in the 5th will make the team. IMO if you can get a starter in the 5th...you take it. This kicker is a starter.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
Taking the totality of a college player's stats is the opposite of taking a complete picture.
How did the player develop? Did he improve from year to year? Did he become more capable as he developed?
Just my $0.0000000213562514232 worth, and replying to no one in particular.
You're exactly right. The hard thing with this kid is that Oklahoma's offense was so good, he has too small of a sample size.
Under 40 yards he averaged about 15 attempts/year and had 75%, 92%, 86%, then 94% his senior year
Extra points he averaged about 78 attempts/year and had 97%, 97%, 100%, then 99% his senior year
Over 40 yards he average 4.5 attempts/year and had 83% then 0%, then 67% then 50% his senior year.
I just hope lack of opportunities (1 every 2-3 games) was the reason that he isn't very good beyond 40. His leg is supposed to be a cannon, so distance isn't it.
He also lost supposedly the best long snapper before last season. Word around here is his focusing on just fg's has helped.
EO, I think I'm remaining fairly composed but basically. I said I didn't like the pick because I thought we could get the kicker later and address other needs. About the time that I was making this statement, I wrote a post saying the specific need I thought should be addressed. Then Purple wrote a post later asking what need I was talking about and if it were WR then that would show I wasn't credible. I wrote back and said it is a good idea to know what someone is saying before making assumptions and that I stated the needs in an earlier post. Then some of Purple's fanboys (not suggesting he put them up to it) took it upon themselves to chastise me because I shouldn't reply to the board "owner" as if he just a poster. They implied I owed him some special deference. Hell, I didn't even know he ran the board but my point is that that gives him no special exception from criticism. If he's claiming it, which he has not to my knowledge just tell me and I'll get off of "his" board.
That's it in a nutshell.
Yep, PPE saved this message board and kept it running all these years, it use to be the original board.
Props to him for that.
As for his football he has never used his Ownership as a crutch to lean on or special considerations.
Note, you have been here how long and you had no clue he was the GUY running things. Testimony to his ability to run things and not abuse his power.
next, he doesn't hold grudges you can spank him like any other poster. Just don't swear or break the rules against him or another...I know I have and got booted always thinking it was done so Unfairly...lol
So go ahead and have a debate with him - don't use his ownership as a change to your posting. Just don't break the rules in doing so. Anyone who said don't take a discussion to a degree cause he is the owner did him no service cause I don't think he holds that over anyone's head. Treat him like any other poster.
Anyways for a 5th round pick and one that we will be entering the realm of playoffs which year after year a good reliable kicker is an asset that is proven to be a difference maker in winning a ONE and Done game or not.
The Kid is a great asset and I for one have been scared of our present kicker in extra points and FGs and that was us in games getting us close to .500 What we got here is nothing I would be happy with in important close games.
This kid might end up the most important pick of this Draft for us
Its all about the team. Could we have gotten him in the 6th? Seriously, if we wanted him why take the chance.
This was not a strong draft class if the kid you wanted cannot make a dent in special teams, he won't be on this team. Siebert, makes a big time dent for us!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Yep, PPE saved this message board and kept it running all these years, it use to be the original board.
Props to him for that.
As for his football he has never used his Ownership as a crutch to lean on or special considerations.
I can personally attest to the fact that I have had disagreements with Purp in the past (before knowing he was upkeeping the board) and NEVER did he try to "flex" or pull "rank". We simply said our difference of opinion and went our way. I give him exceptional props for that.
And from what I can tell, I don't think believe he would want ANYONLE treating him with kid gloves because he "owns" the board. I think that would be disservice to the board and to himself.
And from what I can tell, I don't think believe he would want ANYONLE treating him with kid gloves because he "owns" the board. I think that would be disservice to the board and to himself.
I don't want to further derail this thread, but I do want to thank folks for the kind words. I suppose I'm doing something right these days; I can say with some embarassment that in the early days of the boards I had a few outburts on here that I've never been too proud of, but those were lessons.
Interesting side note: I got sober right around the time I started this site; so there was a wee bit of thin-skinned emotional, ego-driven idiocy from me early on, lol
I now return this to the discussion of us waiting too long to take a punter
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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