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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
Hour and a half trying to get out of the parking garage.

What was this?!? Same here. My buddy was in a different parking location and took him well over an hour to get out as well. Literally not moving at all. Never had this experience before.

I was losing my mind.

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Should have went to the W 150th street and caught the RTA!


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j/c

Jacksonville, who is arguably the worst team in the NFL, is the only team with fewer takeaways than the Browns defense.


But the QB.....

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I said that too during the game … It took me a while to even remember a take away from this year


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I tend to agree with the people who were actually at the game and those who do not have access to the All 22. Since his rookie year, one of the biggest knocks on Baler was being a one read QB that has issues going through his progressions and not seeing open receives. Now in Year 4, Baker may have improved some but no where near what he should be. He rarely ever looks at OBJ unless he is first read, which rarely ever happens anyways. I said it a few weeks ago, it appears as if the gameplan is to keep him as healthy as possible for tradebait before the trade deadline or after the year.

The offense has turned very bland and predictable. Just stack the box and force Baker to beat you with his arm seems to be the way to easily beat the Browns. If you do get in a shootout, the Defense will allow you to impose your will on them. We run an extremely conservative Offense and Defense. Outside of the Chicago game the Defensive scheme pretty much blows. Bottom of the League in turnovers. Garrett will get his token sack but the Garrett/Clowney combo hasn't lived up to its hype and they haven't "taken over games" or allowed others to rack up sacks, cause fumbles and interceptions.

What happened to all the great playaction fakes and designed rollouts like in the first 2 games? What happened to the creativity like reverses, Landry/OBJ throwing the ball, Chubb and Hunt in the backfield together...just a new wrinkle or something.


All this adds up to an average team with a .500 record.

Last edited by DaveyD; 10/31/21 09:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
Had great seats and was able to finally get a view of the whole field during plays. IMO, Baker does not see the field. OBJ was beating his man all day. He was behind the defense at least twice and Baker never looked his way. Baker again overthrowing, and throwing behind open recievers. I was always in his corner, but seeing him live changed my mind. He is a middle of the pack game manager. This team will never win a championship with him at QB.

I don't know if I'd go so far as saying "never" win a championship. But he's certainly not going to LEAD you to one. Give him a dominant running game, OLine, receivers and defense and he'll look good (who wouldn't?) and he's good enough to be squarely league average. League average QBs occasionally do win Super Bowls when the stars align.

He definitely doesn't see the whole field though. Not just when it comes to OBJ either. How many times has he tried to force a down-field throw, or taken a sack, or scrambled...when there's a guy wide freaking open 5-10 yards in front of him? It's literally happened multiple times every game. Sometimes those throws wouldn't have resulted in a first down anyway, but sometimes they would have. It's a massive issue, and it's a knock that he's had since college.

His eyes are slow. It's not that he doesn't have the will or the work-ethic. It's not that he doesn't have the leadership or the toughness. It's not the he doesn't have the arm strength, talent or accuracy (when his footwork and mechanics are sound at least). It's literally his inability to see things with his eyes and rapidly (important) go through his progressions to find the open man. When given lots of time, he's gotten better at working through his progressions since becoming a pro, but NFL QBs have to be able to do that el rapido against good defenses. It's why he's so bad under pressure.


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Originally Posted by Westy15
So Landry is our best receiver? And one of the best slot in the NFL?
He has 182 yards and 0 touchdowns on the year and we are halfway thru the season!

I mean, you DO realize he was literally injured on the first drive of the 2nd game of the season and was DNP while on IR for weeks 3-6 right?

So he has 182 yards and 0 TD in 3 games (and 1 drive) with Baker Mayfield at QB (and one of those 3 games was with Case Keenum).

Yes, he's still one of the best slot receivers in the NFL, even if he was very very bad today.

Last edited by GraffZ06; 10/31/21 09:50 PM.

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It's maddening. He doesn't "feel" pressure, he looks at it. Once he is moved off his spot, it is as if he has no idea where his receivers are going to be. Sometimes I really think his height is a problem. Just a game or two ago, when he ran when there was an open RB, can't remember who, clearly within five or ten yards of him. If you look at the replay, I don't think he even saw him. How many times are guys crossing the middle with a step on the defender, and his throw is late or off target. I truly believe he can't see them.

I'm not a coach or a professional analyst, but my eyes were opened today. When under pressure, I believe he has trouble figuring out where his receivers are , due to not being able to see them, or not being able to remember once pressured.

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Cooper Rush for Baker, who says no?

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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
It's maddening. He doesn't "feel" pressure, he looks at it. Once he is moved off his spot, it is as if he has no idea where his receivers are going to be. Sometimes I really think his height is a problem. Just a game or two ago, when he ran when there was an open RB, can't remember who, clearly within five or ten yards of him. If you look at the replay, I don't think he even saw him. How many times are guys crossing the middle with a step on the defender, and his throw is late or off target. I truly believe he can't see them.

I'm not a coach or a professional analyst, but my eyes were opened today. When under pressure, I believe he has trouble figuring out where his receivers are , due to not being able to see them, or not being able to remember once pressured.

I believe it was Felton who was literally standing 5 yards in front of him wide open and Baker never saw him. That relates my previous post.

Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

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Most of Baker's peers have gotten better while he's regressed. Feels like something destined to happen to Cleveland. So discouraging.

I have zero excitement for the rest of the season. I was concerned when Baker was average in training camp. Most of the beat writers wrote it off as he's always been a better game player than practice player. I accepted that as probable. Looks like it's carried over to the games.

The observation of Baker doesn't feel pressure, he stares at it, is an excellent one. Watch Allen and Burrow feel pressure and slightly shift the pocket left or right. Its why Burrow even with his noodle arm is playing well. Baker never does this. He just seems completely lost.

Its year 4. It's probably not getting any better. And don't know where you even go from here. We are the Minnesota vikings.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
We are the Minnesota vikings.

Or worse, a Jeff Fisher Titans team.

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You go all in on Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers.

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Originally Posted by DaveyD
Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

I think Stefanski has to bear some responsibility for Baker's failures. Baker doesn't do anything well anymore.

The Browns season is over. You can't win with this kind of incompetence at the head coach and QB positions. Here's what I would do for next season ...

1. Trade or release OBJ. It's not working and I think it's making things worse for Baker.

2. Turn over playcalling duties to AVP. We need a CEO coach, not someone who only pays attention to one side of the ball.

3. Let Baker and AVP tweak the offense. I would prefer we ran something closer to Cincy and Buffalo where the QB is the focal point.

4. Hire an experienced DC.

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A major part of the problem is that Baker is essentially a pocket passer. Very few planned rollouts with him these days as the shoulder is of concern.

The WR’s are showing to be less than average. And I am being nice.

Nothing beyond 20 yards, the Browns are predictable and easy to defend.


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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by DaveyD
Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

I think Stefanski has to bear some responsibility for Baker's failures. Baker doesn't do anything well anymore.

The Browns season is over. You can't win with this kind of incompetence at the head coach and QB positions. Here's what I would do for next season ...

1. Trade or release OBJ. It's not working and I think it's making things worse for Baker.

2. Turn over playcalling duties to AVP. We need a CEO coach, not someone who only pays attention to one side of the ball.

3. Let Baker and AVP tweak the offense. I would prefer we ran something closer to Cincy and Buffalo where the QB is the focal point.

4. Hire an experienced DC.

This all seems like a tremendous overreaction to one game (except for the OBJ part). Stefanski was hired to run his offense. We were in the position to win against a good defense if it were not individual failures.

I don’t know what you mean by an experienced coordinator but Joe Woods was a successful coordinator for two years with Denver.

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Cooper Rush for Baker, who says no?

Likely Dallas. Why would they want to overpay for a backup QB? They'd likely want some significant draft picks to even consider that deal.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by Rishuz
We are the Minnesota vikings.

Or worse, a Jeff Fisher Titans team.

Yep this is a definite worry. We're good enough to never get a top pick to get the talent we really need, yet not good enough to actually make/win playoff games (minus a fluke it's looking like last year). The proverbial no mans land. Terrible place to be.


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You guys ragging Baker do realize he playing with a broken upper arm and a torn labrum in his shoulder right? He shouldn't even be playing but is playing his heart out in spite of a season ending injury. Give the guy a freaking break!!!

Now if you want to criticize our HC for letting him play then feel free. Just how bad is our back QB that Baker is still out there with the severe injuries that he is suffering from right now. Throwing deep should not even be in the playbook right now.

We have a lot of guys who are playing hurt so it's going to be ugly like this for a while. I just hope we are in a spot to fight for a wild card spot after we finally get a bye week at the end of the season.


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To be clear, I was joking about Baker. I think it’s pretty obvious the injury is limiting him.

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Originally Posted by waterdawg
Wow , you folks are brutal today .. Maybe should ask Ski to return his Coach of the year Trophy .. Lol

Maybe the Browns will not win another game all year!


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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by DaveyD
Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

I think Stefanski has to bear some responsibility for Baker's failures. Baker doesn't do anything well anymore.

The Browns season is over. You can't win with this kind of incompetence at the head coach and QB positions. Here's what I would do for next season ...

1. Trade or release OBJ. It's not working and I think it's making things worse for Baker.

2. Turn over playcalling duties to AVP. We need a CEO coach, not someone who only pays attention to one side of the ball.

3. Let Baker and AVP tweak the offense. I would prefer we ran something closer to Cincy and Buffalo where the QB is the focal point.

4. Hire an experienced DC.

This all seems like a tremendous overreaction to one game (except for the OBJ part).

It is NOT an overreaction to One Game!!!
It is an overreaction to EIGHT GAMES!!! and a visible probability that the remaining 9 games are only going to be similarly bad, based on the patterns.


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Originally Posted by DaveyD
I tend to agree with the people who were actually at the game and those who do not have access to the All 22. Since his rookie year, one of the biggest knocks on Baler was being a one read QB that has issues going through his progressions and not seeing open receives. Now in Year 4, Baker may have improved some but no where near what he should be. He rarely ever looks at OBJ unless he is first read, which rarely ever happens anyways. I said it a few weeks ago, it appears as if the gameplan is to keep him as healthy as possible for tradebait before the trade deadline or after the year.

The offense has turned very bland and predictable. Just stack the box and force Baker to beat you with his arm seems to be the way to easily beat the Browns. If you do get in a shootout, the Defense will allow you to impose your will on them. We run an extremely conservative Offense and Defense. Outside of the Chicago game the Defensive scheme pretty much blows. Bottom of the League in turnovers. Garrett will get his token sack but the Garrett/Clowney combo hasn't lived up to its hype and they haven't "taken over games" or allowed others to rack up sacks, cause fumbles and interceptions.

What happened to all the great playaction fakes and designed rollouts like in the first 2 games? What happened to the creativity like reverses, Landry/OBJ throwing the ball, Chubb and Hunt in the backfield together...just a new wrinkle or something.


All this adds up to an average team with a .500 record.

For the most part I agree. Especially about the defense being conservative. Last season woods , out of all defensive coordinators, was 2nd to last in blitzes called. As I have said before, he tries to run a glorified version of a prevent defense. Now, could it be that stefanski is the one telling him to run that glorified prevent defense? That I dont know. However whoever it is, I hope they realize that it's not working. All the money and talent we added to the defense is being wasted, and we are running out of time. Its gotten to the point that we pretty much have to win all or most of our remaining games. 12 it 13 wins will give us a decent chance at a wildcard at least. However, we are up against it. Another two or three losses and that is probably that, as in the end of our playoff Hope's. it's a uphill battle, I dont like our chances, but I still havent given up hope of making the playoffs yet


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Kinda just looking at the scores … it appears that we stink.

Chargers looked unstoppable against us and have lost ever since
Texans are a dumpster fire
Bears are the most “meh” team in the NFL
Vikings just lost to Cooper Rush in primetime
Denver is the next most “meh” team in the NFL
Steelers are incredibly offensively challenged
Chiefs are under .500


We don’t belong in the same sentence as the Bills, Ravens, Titans, Rams, etc


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different game than some of you. Tom Brady could be our QB and Landry would still have fumbled the ball, OBJ would still have stopped his route to watch the ball sail over his head and they both would still drop passes. We should probably address the problem before we start calling Baker average. We could go "all in on Rodgers or Wilson" (which is actually the silliest thing you'll read on here all day) but we'd still have the same issues we have today.

As Browns fans we'd still be here complaining that Wilson missed that open receiver or he's too short to play quarterback for the Browns. It'll never end. Anyone who thinks Baker is an "average" quarterback should be relegated to 2016-2017.

We pay OBJ and Landry a really nice salary, each, but there isn't a team of the remaining 31 that would swap us receivers even if we paid half their salaries. More teams would take Baker and pay him 30 million than take either one of our supposed top 2 WR at their current salary. But the narrative will remain.... Landry had a bad game and Baker needs to go.

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Huge disappointment.

Hard to believe that this team lost to that team at home.

However, that is what happens when one team makes plays and doesn't make mistakes.

And the other team does not plays that are there and makes mistakes.

That pretty much sums it up.

Penalty's, drops, fumble. And a guy makes a great play for a TD. Doesn't take much more to lose in the NFL.

Faulting Baker for the lose is absurd. But that is what we get around here.


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Here’s the troubling thing: WE are the team making the mistakes this year, whereas last year it was the opposite. Think back to our losses … WE are the ones turning it over, making dumb penalties, dropping passes, etc.


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by DaveyD
Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

I think Stefanski has to bear some responsibility for Baker's failures. Baker doesn't do anything well anymore.

The Browns season is over. You can't win with this kind of incompetence at the head coach and QB positions. Here's what I would do for next season ...

1. Trade or release OBJ. It's not working and I think it's making things worse for Baker.

2. Turn over playcalling duties to AVP. We need a CEO coach, not someone who only pays attention to one side of the ball.

3. Let Baker and AVP tweak the offense. I would prefer we ran something closer to Cincy and Buffalo where the QB is the focal point.

4. Hire an experienced DC.

This all seems like a tremendous overreaction to one game (except for the OBJ part). Stefanski was hired to run his offense. We were in the position to win against a good defense if it were not individual failures.

I don’t know what you mean by an experienced coordinator but Joe Woods was a successful coordinator for two years with Denver.

Joe Woods - if he was a successful D coordinator for Denver, how or why did he end up as being a D-Backs coach in his next gig? I can't speak for anyone else but I am still highly concerned - and the Pit offense is anemic, Ben is a shell of himself, and while allowing 15 points against good teams might be considered a success - it really felt like whatever we did on offense yesterday, Pit would have found a way to score more points on our D. And that's without a Kicker who could have certainly kicked at least a couple FG's if he had been healthy.

Stefanski's offense is sometimes excellent. We seemingly always have a first drive that looks like we are going to stomp the other team and then it goes sideways . . . . it appears to me to be one dimensional plan that once the other team makes adjustments - we simply struggle. Now ... we are certainly hamstrung with injuries and have real WR woes right now. But I don't think it's just the injuries. I see other teams doing more with less and finding ways to adjust to adversity ... we seem to shrink and go into a predictable pattern when facing adversity. And when either tackle or starting OG goes down, it seems like we completely abandon what the gameplan might be ... I still think KS is the right man for the job, I just think he gets into much too predictable a pattern and everything is too same-ish. . . . If part of that is an injured Baker - If an injured Baker is still better than a healthy Case - we still need to let Baker heal for the long term good.

I do think that mixing things up for a half - with play calls by AVP would help mix things up and prevent the practicability. If he did it for a game and KS could see areas for him to change or improve, i'd be all for that too.

As for the OP comment that Baker doesn't do anything good? Well I agree with the many posters who have highlighted the loss to Pit has little to do with Baker, he had a couple slightly off throws, we had receivers (hurt) drop balls they shouldn't have. And while I wasn't at the game this week - the comments about OBJ getting open [1] when I was at the game, he was getting open by free lancing after the route was covered. Not within the structure of the play design [2] When he has been thrown the ball and it's hit his hands, he has dropped the ball A LOT ... wonder what his PFF grade is for the season?

Bottom line - any QB in the NFL from Brady to Rodgers to Allen and Lamar ... playing with a broken bone and torn labrum is going to be struggling in all aspects of their game. Labeling Baker 'average' while playing with this injury seems more like contrived commentary than serious take.

Last edited by mgh888; 11/01/21 07:22 AM.

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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
Here’s the troubling thing: WE are the team making the mistakes this year, whereas last year it was the opposite. Think back to our losses … WE are the ones turning it over, making dumb penalties, dropping passes, etc.

Yes - I guess I have not been paying attention enough to the penalties. We are close to the lead in penalty yards in the entire NFL .... that is coaching and that is BAD.


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I agree w/our offense. It’s so weird that we can look like the first drive against Denver .. and then it just disappears for long stretches.

I don’t get why we get away from the heavy PA game against base defenses until it’s too late. That seems to be our bread and butter.


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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At some point. questions have to be answered about this staff...all the way up to Berry. The more this season goes on, I'm not sure outside of Callahan we have the coaching that matches our "talent" same thing for years, square pegs into round holes. Usually if you have bad coaching teams will regress year to year as other teams get better that have better coaching.. We are seeing that right now. Stefanski at minimum should not call plays anymore. I would start there, its a small change that might spark the offense.


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I was wrong to say Baker is average. He's below average. The stats and eye test all back it up. There will be a ton of all 22 that comes out this week showing no ability to see the field or deliver tbe ball on time.

You guys act like I like saying this stuff or it brings me some perverse joy. I don't. I'd be over the moon if the Browns and Baker were great. I'm the opposite now. Very melancholy.

I'm commenting on what I see and think, particularly relative to other teams. What I see is a QB with a great arm and not much else. No dynamicness to his game. No ability to raise the play of his teammates. No making plays when the team needs them the most.

I thought Baker played decent yesterday and is not solely responsible for the loss. But the "superbowl bound" Browns are 4-4 and my commentary is intended to cover the entire season to date.

If I'm missing something and Baker is dynamic, raises the play of his teammates, and makes plays when the team needs them the most, I'm all ears and willing to listen. Point them out to me.

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no doubt I tend to lean your way as well. I actually thought Baker was good-ish yesterday and lay way more blame on the WRs … but I still don’t have confidence that he can raise the level around him.

Heck, I watched Cooper Rush last night … who’s in a VERY similar situation to Baker (great RBs, TE, OL, etc) and he went in and did the exact same thing Baker did in Minnesota.


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Welcome to your 2021 cleveland browns...average coach, average qb, average execution, terrible defensive coordinator.


To be fair, I didn't see Stefanski drop a couple of passes down close to the goal line and I didn't see Stefanski fumble any balls.. So I guess there's that!


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I still have to watch the game. Will prolly do that either late tonight or tomorrow, but I listened to the radio call live. We lost a slapfight to the Steelers. Still a lot of season left, but not sure how anyone can conjure much confidence about our chances coming out of this game. Conklin got hurt again, which sucks. Did Wills play?

The radio call described a VERY well organized disappointment from the O. Steelers were obviously keying on Chubb, and the passing game just couldn't get its head out of its butt. More dropped passes from our most highly-paid catchers. When Baker wasn't throwing high, the ball was clanging off hands. For me, Landry has built up a resume here where I'm confident he's gonna address and sort out whatever it was that happened yesterday. Hooper and OBJ, not so much. Hooper is SO sickeningly average. The OBJ issue is what it is. He might be getting over on the DB from time to time, but I don't buy the "he's running open all over the place... Boo Baker" narrative. I don't know what OBJ's issue is, but if he/we haven't ironed it out by now, I think it's best to just figure out a smaller role for him and allow DPJ to really eat into his snaps. IMO, Hooper and OBJ need to be moved to make room for the guys behind them (I've kinda done a 180 on Njoku... dude has been playing well despite such a small role... radio guys are screaming when Baker chucks the ball on 3rd and long when Njoku is sitting open).

add: we squandered a rare overall positive performance from the D... though they also chipped in with a couple brutal momentum killers.

Last edited by oobernoober; 11/01/21 08:33 AM.

There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by Woofurious
The fans in the stands SUCKED today.



Not sure why you say that, was at the game and the fans did a great job ! unfortunately after time it started to have the same feeling as in the past. I give a shout out to the fans !

I noticed no energy from the Offense or Defense, Can't place it on the fact that injured players struggling with pain and it's hard to get fired up from the pain or was it that the coaching staff did not have the team fired up against a rival opponent. Hopefully some healing will help step up the energy level.




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The browns defense is 3rd in yards allowed. 13th in points allowed, 3rd against the run, 7th against the pass.

Anybody whining about the defense needs to stop. Woods and the defense have done their part. This is all on the Offense.


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Does anyone know why D'Ernest Johnson didn't play? That's embarrassing and a trait of someone who has NO clue how to run an offense.


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Originally Posted by tastybrownies
Does anyone know why D'Ernest Johnson didn't play? That's embarrassing and a trait of someone who has NO clue how to run an offense.

He got some snaps. Oddly enough, was the only guy on O who scored a TD. Chubb showed up. But I was upset that Felton seemed to get more snaps than Johnson. And I’m not sure why.


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Things don't seem to add up do they Swish. Those D #'s are an example. We pushed KC around for most of the game but lost. We outgained the Chargers especially on the ground but lost. Yesterday was a game that felt like we should have won but again lost. The only game we got beat outright was the Arizona game and that was probably because of the injuries. Something just isn't right with this team and I really don't know what. We have a rushing attack with RB's and an O- line that is the envy of the league but it's not translating into wins like it should. What's wrong?

Last edited by Homewood Dog; 11/01/21 09:34 AM.
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