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If it is his rotator cuff, I can sympathize. I injured my rotator cuff 2 months ago and still have TONS of pain raising my arm above my head, putting my arm behind my back and across my body. I have an MRI scheduled next week.

Unfortunately, "what it takes" is a mostly healthy roster, and there's nothing anyone can do to guarantee that.

But he isn't tough enough to play this week.

That’s one way to look at it without losing faith but there’s nothing connected to the Browns history in the last 20 years that support your theory. In fact the opposite is what we have witnessed with Berry and Stefanski at the wheel.

It’s always easy to find excuses but there must be a time limit for how long we can underachieve without consequences for those two who steers this ship. I personally have seen enough of controversies, bad leadership and failed results to come to the conclusion that we needs changes but I admire your belief.

“What it takes” to win a Super Bowl with current leadership is probably a miracle.

especially since all the teams other than us in our division deal with injuries and just keep finding a way to win.. its a poor excuse and an even bigger flag for the coaching and GM

The Bengals started pretty bad with a banged up QB.


When looking at Super Bowl winners in the last 20 years, I wouldn't really be looking at Browns' history, would I? I feel like your focused in way too narrowly on Cleveland and missing the broader context. Here's a PDF of a journal article that shows the correlation between injury rates and winning percentages: link

There are internal and external controversies. I haven't seen any indication of the team having been lost. To me, it seems most of the "controversy" is coming from the outside. Hopefully the team is better at ignoring it than I am.

Well said Bone.

Mr Bone, just to clear up a couple of things - you don't know me so all that you have wrote is just opinionated garbage. If you don't agree with my post that is your prerogative but everything else you wrote is purely speculative and a personal attack on someone whose opinion you happen to disagree with. I thought you were better than that.

That aside, you said and I quote, "Any negative cap angle. Any number he can find that proves his case. Guess what? Every team has that. But for steve it is only the Browns. Belichick, Payton, Tomlin, McVay, Harbough, what have they done the last couple years. Are their teams mismanaged? If they are judged according to steve. They are no different than the Browns. What have they done lately?"

It's comical that you would try to compare organizations that have ups and downs as every club does with the Browns. More importantly though are how many winning seasons has Belichick, Payton, Tomlin, McVay, and Harbough had the last 15 years? What about the Browns? Heck, how many losing seasons has Tomlin had with Pittsburgh the last 15 years? In all those years, all 15, how many times did those teams draft before the Browns? Yet those teams continue to win, have better drafts, able to sign FA's the Browns could only dream of, play through injuries and all are considered successful franchises. If you want to get educated on the salary cap a bit, maybe you should read this article:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/...broncos-miami-dolphins-arizona-cardinals

A couple of key points that I have trying to stress (also detailed in the article) of the problems the Browns are looking at in the future.

1) The three teams that ranked at the top of the All In-dex last August 2022—the Rams, Broncos, and Browns—all missed the playoffs.

2) The Cleveland Browns are the most all-in team for 2023.

3) Neither of the two teams that reached the Super Bowl were all in. The NFC champion Philadelphia Eagles were 21st in our rankings before the start of last season. The Kansas City Chiefs, even with a high-priced quarterback, were 24th. Last offseason, Kansas City traded away All-Pro receiver Tyreek Hill for draft picks, clearly choosing to prioritize Patrick Mahomes’s next decade over the next season. Then the Chiefs, with a team filled with one of the most rookie-heavy rosters in the NFL, won the Super Bowl anyway. While they were planning to have their cake later, they ate it too.

4) Being “all in” does not equal “wanting to win really badly”! This might be true in some cases, but it certainly is not for every team at the top of the All In-dex board.

5) The Rams are spending 30 percent of their 2023 budget on four players who are no longer on the team (Allen Robinson II, Bobby Wagner, Jalen Ramsey, and Leonard Floyd). L.A. is dedicating more of its budget to those four former Rams than it’s spending on its entire defense this year. Like a field that has been sapped of nutrients, the Rams are being forced to let their roster lie fallow.

6) All of this puts the Browns in a precarious spot as they face down the gauntlet that is the AFC North. Ending this season without a playoff win would be an abject failure. A season without a playoff appearance would be a catastrophe.

A loss this week to the 49ers coupled with a Bengals win would put the Browns in last place in the AFC North after 6 weeks of the NFL season complete (33%). Tell me again why Berry and Stefanski shouldn't be criticized.

Thanks for a lengthy reply bonefish!

I will start by giving my standard answer when discussing right, wrong and why. Results don’t lie! Read that again my friend. Results don’t lie, especially when we talk about a span that cover more than 3 seasons in a row. It’s from that viewpoint I form my thoughts and opinion.

At the top of such a “complex business organization” (your own words) we have a Chief strategist, a GM and a HC who’re responsible for almost everything connected to the results. Drafts. FA. Contracts. Strategy. Training methods. Tactics. Play calling. You name it, but, they’re also responsible for creating a healthy culture inside their organization.

I apologize to you and others that I use so much space to tell obvious “facts” that you probably already know but I don’t do it to lecture, especially not to you, but to give my thoughts and opinions some contexts.

Every organization has injuries, internal conflicts and a bunch of daily/monthly/yearly problems to deal with. The difference between the more and less successful teams is how they deal with all these things. That takes me to the Cleveland Browns because that’s the team I follow most closely.

Since Berry and Stefanski’s arrival our results has since 2020 gone downhill. That’s a fact. According to probably the majority of this forum has our roster more talented players today then we had 2020. Especially our QB position is heavily upgraded if I listen to all the “experts”. Still our results don’t improve. Why’s that?

I’m by no means a expert on American football, I have stated that since my first time on this board but I’m learning season by season watching RedZone, full games and analytic tapes on YT. But what I can say with confidence is that I have 30 years+ of business management and working with executive-level employees. Both as an owner, co owner and a board member. The experience that I gathered in all these years had made me comfortable to share my opinions and thoughts inside this area.

Without having more inside knowledge and information than anyone else it’s obvious from the outside that the Browns isn’t exactly a stable organization. Too many decisions has been enough questionable to give the media and supporters plenty of strong arguments to heavily criticize our management and asking what’s going on. That’s another indicator to be worried about when evaluating how smoothly this organization runs.

It’s also telling when the GM and HC having public conflicts with several players that creates headlines. The Baker conflict was school book example of how you shouldn’t handle a situation when you want to move on. Talking in riddles when discussing the future, public lies about intentions, create a uncomfortable atmosphere when our HC publicly trying to let the player hang out to dry by not protecting his well being and health. Without taking side with Baker, because his part has lot to criticize, it’s a sign of a questionable leadership.

All in all there’s too much drama around the Browns that strongly indicates that the culture inside Berea has big potential to get much better. To put it mildly.

You can easily dismiss everything I say, that’s cool and your choice, but our results the last two seasons and a half don’t indicate success. That’s a fact that’s hard to walk around even if you dislike my thoughts.

Who were and how were their QB's playing again? How does that compare to the Browns? I won't even bother posting the list of twenty something QB names involved.

How has Belichick and Sean Payton looked since they lost Brady and Brees?

People always want to bring up the QB thing when talking about winning teams and those losing. I ask how those teams got those QB's? Did the Browns have equal opportunity to get those guys? How many times did the Browns have to draft Brady before the Pats did in the 6th round in 2000? Brady was the 199th pick yet the Browns took Courtney Brown #1 overall. They also drafted WR Northcutt 32nd, RB Prentice 63rd, WR Dawson 79th, DB Sanders 95th, TE Shea 110th, DB Malbrough 130th, DB Chapman 146th, and QB Wynn 183rd all of whom were drafted before Brady that the Browns had a chance at getting Brady. This constant whining about not having an elite QB when it can be pointed out over the decades the Browns had every opportunity to draft any number of elite QB's but chose other players. Shall I go on,,,,,,,,

2004 Roethlisberger draft 11th overall by PIT - Browns selected TE Winslow 6th overall
2005 Rodgers was drafted 24th overall by the GBP - Browns selected WR Edwards 3rd overall
2012 Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round 75th by SEA - the Browns drafted RB Richardson 3rd overall, QB Weeden 22nd, T Schwartz 37th
2016 Prescott was drafted in the 4th round 135th by DAL - the Browns drafted WR Coleman 15th overall, DE Obgah 32nd, DE Nassib 65th, T Coleman 76th, QB Kessler 93rd, LB Schobert 99th, WR Lewis 114th, and S Kindred 129th.
2017 the Browns drafted Garrett #1 overall and has been a great selection, but that selection also meant that the Browns passed on Mahomes 10th and Watson 12th that same draft - so was it the right pick?
In 2018 the Browns drafted Mayfield #1 overall and Ward 4th overall - with those picks, the Browns passed on Allen 7th and Jackson 32nd with either one of those 1st round picks.

Anyway, this complaint about this team and that team only being good because they have an elite QB when the Browns have had no less than 16 times the last 23 years to have any number of those elite QB's is just an wore out excuse ridden claim by disgruntled fans.

You ask: "How has Belichick and Sean Payton looked since they lost Brady and Brees?" I'm not sure I can answer that since they don't have the same 23-year record of misses in the draft and free agency. The point is the Browns had an equal opportunity to get every one of the QB's listed above and they passed. Quit blaming other teams good fortunes on the Browns inability to scout elite talent.

I totally agree with you that an elite QB is a necessity to achieve sustainable success.

That leads me into my questioning of the decision to “pay whatever it takes” to get Watson. From my probably amateurish perspective that was a high risk/high reward move that at the time didn’t make sense because of all the off field problem that followed the former Texans star. If it was one thing that was obvious from the outside was that the Browns needed stability and therefore going after DSW was contrary to that belief.

When I started to follow the Browns in 2017 it was a carousel of incoming and outgoing GM’s and head coaches. When we got Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski I had high hopes of a culture change and pro active improvements on and off the field.

Our new GM started well with improving diversity and trying to install a more stable environment inside the organization. In one of his first public appearances he gave a well educated and professional impression with thoughtful views that gave me hopes. The first impression I had with Stefanski was similar with a low profile approach and it was refreshing to see a new HC with less attitude when entering a new unknown challenge.

So when the Browns decided to move on from Baker it didn’t come as a shock, the signs was on the wall since the results started to go south after his injury, but the way it was handled came as a negative surprise. Both Berry and Stefanski showed stunningly immaturity and their lack of experience how to handle a situation like this highly contributed to the public brakedown with Baker. With that in mind then it was a strange move to go after such a controversial figure like Watson and then offering him 230M guaranteed. This was a huge gamble when none of them knew the outcome of his court cases. Another bi product was all the negative media that surrounded the organization and when they presented their new QB in Mars 2022 it ended with a PR fiasco, there’s no other way to describe it.

When the Haslams and Berry authorized such a costly project they raked the arena for Stefanski's future departure. Anything short of success would probably be perceived as failure. That decision appears to have been made without regard to who they were dealing with. Watson's history in Houston should have sent warning signals of caution and therefore the 230M guaranteed money was completely disproportionate to the risks that were available for all to see.

So here we’re without even discussing Stefanski’s talent as a tactician and play caller. That’s another huge issue with question marks around his ability to progress and learn.

I purposely left out all the talk about the culture because as you mentioned none of us doesn’t really knows all the details but from the outside that also looks questionable from my perspective.

So there you have three reasons I’m not sure that Berry and Stefanski is the right duo to take us forward.

Steve it's because of what I've posted 2 or 3 times; since our return we've done a lousy job drafting in the 1st round with the exception of Myles, Joe Thomas and Alex Mack and in 3 of those drafts we've had multiple picks and still screwed it up. That's why I wasn't upset about trading 3 1st rounders to Houston, as long as DW turned out to be really good for us. So far......

The only one with a campaign would appear to be you.

First you act like the Browns never had a chance for an elite QB like other teams yet when someone points that out that fallacy it's an agenda.

It was you that said success of the other coaches has been linked to them getting elite QB's, if true, what the Browns have just been unlucky?

What have you done lately refers to all teams but lately becomes more important for some than it does for others.

McVay can be criticized for last year (LOL, no break for having an injured QB there) but their lately would include a 2021 season Super Bowl win.

Belichick has been suspect lately but they did make the playoffs without Brady in 2021 and prior to that 11 out of 12 years - maybe a pass on the lately.

Payton only missed the playoffs 1 time in the last 5 years coached in New Orleans, so I'd be good with that record.

Contrary to what you have talked yourself into believing, I'm not bent on proving a negative for the Browns. What I am passionate about is watching a franchise that has been given an opportunity to be successful and continually screwing up.

Come on man, you're a smart guy. How do you have the highest spend in the NFL this year and 3rd highest last year and not have an adequate backup QB behind your 230M investment?
.
How do you have the highest spend in the NFL and not have an adequate RB backup for Chubb when the NFL guideline is to "Plan for RBs to miss 1-3 Games per season." Especially for a team that focuses so much on the run and play action - yet no adequate backup plan?

I get that all teams make mistakes, it's part of the culture but the Browns are looking at over 2 décades of mistakes much greater than successes and the group we have right now have not turned that trend.

The doormat of the NFL has arguably been the Detroit Lions the last decade or more, yet they have even passed the Browns at this point and without a top 5 elite QB according to your standards.

The Browns are close, but the window is closing and with Berry and Stefanski in charge they are shooting for that one single season of glory and it's not looking promising at this point - thus the criticism and rightfully so IMHO.

You did a great job of showing how many teams overlooked those same QB's. Sometimes over and over again. Then you tried to frame it as though it was Browns specific. It wasn't.

That's not the point. If you're going to bitch about not having an elite QB like other teams (stating that's the only reason they won) but you had no less than 16 opportunities in the last couple of decades to right that ship is an excuse driven agenda. Of course, other teams have passed on the greats but we're not talking about other teams - we're talking about the Browns. I could give a sh_t if the Bears don't have an elite QB or WAS, LVR, or TEN. Those teams had opportunities too but who cares - the Browns have blown it for decades and that's who I care about. That's before we even get into the other 1st round selections that were subject picks when made.

The Chiefs won the Super Bowl last year with more rookies on their roster that any other team. What makes them so special that they can do that, but our management team can't. "I react very badly when mediocrity throws a tantrum of entitlement", Lee Siegel.

I pointed out the FACT that that the Browns didn't have a true franchise QB. I didn't bitch about it. You do understand that facts do not form an agenda, right?



If we wish to get into "Of courses" it seems to me that you're trying to complicate the picture by including the QB situation over decades to the current state of affairs at the position. Which actually has nothing to do with our current situation nor the current FO that created this situation. I find it hard to see how that is relevant to the topic at hand in any way.

And I certainly understand why you would wish to avoid admitting that many other teams passed on these same QB's during that same time period. Because if you wish to bring up agendas, ignoring that supports yours. But you did admit one thing that I find interesting. When I pointed out how many other teams passed on these same QB's, your response was "I don't care". I understand that you don't care about actual facts that don't align with your argument.


Patrick Mahomes.


I react very badly when people throw a tantrum while ignoring a factual explanation as they admit that it makes no difference to them.

Factual explanations is only valid if the team is temporarily underachieving, otherwise these “explanations’ is the norm, not the anomaly.


Not once is it fair to say that Berry or Stefanski has overachieved with all the talent they have had to their disposal regarding result. Injuries is part of the game for every GM and HC so that’s not a valid excuse when we talk about three years they been in charge. Giving away valuable draft picks and paying record breaking money without knowing if your 230M quarterback is able to play in 2022 is a comical incompetence and almost a sackable offense if it would have happened somewhere else except in Cleveland. All of this is only bad decision making outside the playing field.

Then we have Stefanski’s tactical ability and his play calling. Nobody connected to the Browns can say with a straight face that they’re impressed with what they have seen so far. In fact the opposite. Kevin has several times admitted that he and his team has being schooled by other play callers. What does these shortcomings tell us?

Then we have all the drama around Watson. His first six game in 2022 was underwhelming. OK, he’s rusty and needs time but is it really worth 44M (or whatever it was) and a lost season?

Then we enter 2023.

Against the Cheif he had 50% completion, 92 yards and 1 TD. It’s not shockingly bad but it isn’t good either. First game of the season so I give him a free ride without to much complaints.
Against the Bengals he had a 16/29 completion, 154 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT. Regarding the circumstances it was an acceptable performance if you ask me. Anyway in the end we won.
Against the Steelers he had a 22/40 completion, 235 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT. In that game he was bad and his childish attitude and poor impulse control was maybe a reminder what’s waiting if things go south.
Against the Titans he had a 27/33 completion, 289 yards and 2 TD. His best game by far with us. For the first time since he arrived he looked like a franchise QB. Well done.
He didn’t start against the Ravens and he will according to reports not play against the Niners.

So 1 game out of 12 has been good to very good. Maybe 2 or 3 have been acceptable with short stints of good plays and the rest (8 or 9 games) is nothing to write home about, especially when we know we’re obligated to pay him fully 230 M guaranteed and get 10-15% value back.

We essentially gave up the 2022 and so far in 2023 it’s close to another underwhelming season. I haven’t totally giving up yet but it doesn’t look good if we lose against the Niners.

With all the above in concentration it’s hard to give Stefanski and Berry any more excuses why we should continue with them anothet season. Yes they have been unlucky with injuries to Chubb and lately Watson but that reality is part of their job description. They together with the Haslams took a chance and it seems to not go as planned, that’s a bitter truth. We can’t sack the owners so who’s going to be the scapegoat when the critic storm is coming?

Meanwhile Baker Mayfield is killing it in TB with a 101 GBR and a 87 QBR lifetime.

Only one note this time.

Why is the offense and Stefanski getting a pass on underperformance at this time, AT game number five we're about to see @uarterback number 3 ???

Why can't the city count on an organization that has its act together? ^

the talk, of ac@uiring even more, even more players from outside the org. from other parts of the NFL as being any kind of an answer is more proof that analytics is a nose diving airplane.

Plays a HC calls are considered great when they work. They're considered bad play calling when they don't. Execution of the plays which are called is the only difference. In his first season as the Browns HC he led what most consider an inferior roster compared to what he has been given this year to the playoffs. It appears most want to claim he forgot how to coach since then.

I have not and will not make excuses for Berry. I'm not actually making excuses for Stefanski. An injured Baker playing most of 2021 certainly didn't help. Having to play a backup QB for 11 games last season certainly didn't help. And as you yourself pointed out, watson playing even worse than the back up after his suspension was over didn't help. But then you turn around and somehow claim all of those issues rest on the shoulders of Stefanski.

That doesn't seem to be very solid math.

Browns have the number one defense in the LEAGUE despite turning the ball over ten times in five games
and being way negative in the turnover ratio on the year.

IN your previous posts you seem to be criticizing Berry. He was not GM when any of the above drafts you listed took place. Travis Prentiss instead of Brady. You are reaching man. You might want to call Dwight Clark on that one.

Yep, he managed to put up 6 points against a Detroit team missing most of its starting secondary.

Brad Stainbrook
@StainbrookNFL
·
58m
#Browns defense is ranked 1st in the NFL in efficiency. The offense is ranked 30th.

Agreed. I don't really want to discuss Baker. I wanted him to do well while he was here but it didn't work out. When we traded him I wished him well. IMO Baker has reached his peak. What we've seen since he's been in the league will be what he will always be. I don't think he will ever lead a team to a Super Bowl and our FO came to the same conclusion which is why the DW trade was made. On paper DW gives us a better chance. Again JMO

Well, I walked by the TV and saw Baker throw a pass right to a Dline outstretched hand that batted it to a teammate for an interception. Don't miss that at all.

Yep, he had an awful game Sunday. Meanwhile, he has outplayed every QB on our roster. Let the year play out, but by the end of the year I think we’ll regret shipping him for DW.

Maybe so.
Maybe not. Long way to go, as you alluded to.

He had a similarly bad game vs the Eagles. That offense is starting to establish a track record of looking fantastic against sub-par teams.

Brad Stainbrook
@StainbrookNFL
·
2m
#Browns week 7 power rankings:

ESPN: 8th
CBS Sports: 10th
Yahoo: 9th
USA Today: 11th
PFT: 12th

Believe it or not, I'm rooting for the guy. I just don't get it when people are trying to claim that he's been setting the league on fire or something. I believe he's on his 4th team now. At one point, he lost his job to Sam Darnold and then got cut after that. He had that amazing game with LA last year and then signed for peanuts (for a starting QB) for TB.

He's had really good looking stat lines... except for when he plays good teams. As an aside, I don't think I've been giving Watson any slack for his (overall) poor play this year. I'm disappointed but not so much that I'm trying to make weird comparisons to Baker.

Yea, it was determined that Baker is not a QB that can win a super bowl. Quite obvious now. That is why the Watson experiment has happened. He now has a few years to show us he can, or the FO will try again. Career wise he has shown much more ability than Baker. He has been to 3 pro bowls and was the passing leader of the NFL for a season. We have only seen 2 games of that Watson so far. Last year vs Washington and this year vs Tennessee. Hopefully once he is healthy, we see more of that Watson.

According to some who love to reference PFF or whatever, he's a JAG.