I know we have the Shurmur/Heckert thread, but I thought this deserved it's own. Lot of good info in here.
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&post_id=9761Quote:
By Tony Grossi
The Morning Kickoff …
The lowdown: These are the latest rumblings I’ve heard from NFL – and college – sources concerning the inevitable shake-up in Browns football operations being considered by CEO Joe Banner.
For the record, owner Jimmy Haslam and Banner recently have declined all meaningful interviews regarding the future configuration of their organization. They have pledged to not make any decisions until after the season.
But it is commonly believed that GM Tom Heckert and coach Pat Shurmur will not be back. Heckert, my sources say, knew it the day Banner reported to work in October as Haslam’s CEO. Shurmur surely knows it now, after that coaching debacle against Washington on Sunday.
The Lombardi Factor: Banner has diagramed an organization chart that calls for football operations to report to him. That means Heckert’s position will be replaced by a glorified player personnel director who will work closely with Banner. He may win some battles but ultimately he will have no real authority to establish a vision, pick players or make trades. Banner will set the agenda.
So who would accept these restrictions? Someone who has been out of the league for five years – Mike Lombardi.
The smooth-talking NFL Network analyst has fostered a relationship with Banner since working for the Philadelphia Eagles in 1997-98. Lombardi, who was Bill Belichick’s first lieutenant in Cleveland after GM Ernie Accorsi left in 1992, was not invited by Art Modell to join the Ravens organization in Baltimore.
Former Eagles coach Ray Rhodes rescued Lombardi with a job in 1997. This was a dream opportunity for Lombardi, who was from the Philadelphia area, but it was lost when the Eagles named Tom Modrak director of football operations. There is a story that on Modrak’s first day on the job, he marched into Lombardi’s office still wearing his overcoat and told Lombardi to pack his belongings. That was the third of Lombardi’s four firings from NFL clubs.
Nevertheless, Lombardi maintained a relationship with Banner, who has risen to positions of enormous power with the Eagles and now the Browns.
According to one source in the loop, the only other name associated in NFL circles with the soon-to-be-vacant position with the Browns is Tom Gamble. Gamble is director of player personnel with the San Francisco 49ers and is considered a viable candidate for several general manager positions expected to open in the NFL.
But because the position Banner has created is on a same plane with the job Gamble currently holds in San Francisco, Gamble would not give the Browns’ job a second thought.
Banner effectively has created a position that only Lombardi would accept.
The coaching candidates: Over the years, Lombardi has forged relationships in the agent business. One that Lombardi has maintained is with Jimmy Sexton. Sexton happens to be Alabama coach Nick Saban’s agent. This relationship partially explains the Saban-to-Cleveland rumors.
Independently, Saban, who has built a national powerhouse at Alabama, is believed to be Haslam’s first choice to coach the Browns. Lombardi is well aware of that, of course. According to a source, Lombardi has gained traction with Haslam by attaching himself to Saban’s coattails.
I have now have had three credible sources – two in the NFL and one in the college ranks – swear to me that Saban has no attraction whatsoever to Lombardi. One insisted Saban wouldn’t work with Lombardi “in a thousand years.” Another on Monday said there is “zero chance” Saban would leave Alabama to work alongside Lombardi in Cleveland.
There is one rumor that Haslam is prepared to offer Saban a $100 million deal over 10 years to coach the Browns.
Two sources who know Saban have told me that Saban is leaning toward staying at Alabama and if he ever sought to scratch that NFL itch again, it would not be in Cleveland. Once Saban left Michigan State in East Lansing, Mich., said one source, he has never traveled north of Tennessee.
Sexton and Lombardi could be scratching each other’s backs on the Saban rumors, said one source. The theory is that Lombardi gains stature with the Browns by forwarding this tall tale, and Saban inevitably will gain a new deal with Alabama.
The Crimson Tide could and would re-up whatever it takes to keep him, said a source.
If not Saban, then who?: In his many media platforms, Lombardi frequently talks up Oregon’s Chip Kelly as a quality NFL coaching candidate. In fact, Lombardi formed a relationship with Kelly several years ago. Lombardi may have introduced Kelly to Belichick, who has incorporated some of Kelly’s fast-paced offensive concepts into the Patriots’ scheme.
Kelly, however, would not be a candidate in Cleveland, said a source, because he has the ego and stature at this time to demand total control of football operatios. And that is something only Saban could wrestle from Banner in Cleveland.
Kelly will get full control somewhere in the NFL. One source predicts it will be Kelly’s demise as an NFL coach, given his total unfamiliarity of the league.
So what does that leave the Browns as head coach? Lombardi’s third choice is Canton-native Josh McDaniels, who failed as Denver Broncos coach but has risen form the ashes in his second stint as Tom Brady’s personal coach with the Patriots.
McDaniels, 36, was 11-17 as Denver Broncos coach in 2009-10 after a 6-0 start. His hiring would likely enable the Browns to retain Dick Jauron as defensive coordinator and much of the current defensive staff.
There are other possibilities of how the Browns’ new direction will unfold, but a Banner-Lombardi-McDaniels triumvirate is currently seen as the most realistic.
One source remarked of the Cleveland situation, “From a distance, I’m fascinated with how it turns out.”
Interesting read. Where there's smoke there's usually fire. I'm certainly curious to see how it turns out.
But, this is a silly season, just like before the draft. We all remember the rumors of Cowher buying a house in Cleveland, of how Gruden was a sure thing to become the Browns' next HC. And look how those turned out.
And, I just generally have a distrust of Grossi. I can't point to any one thing, really. Just don't like the guy.
JMHO
I think this is all very plausible. Probably likely.
Honestly, I'd be ok with McDaniels. I am intrigued this time around by him.
Banner/Lombardi scare the crap out of me. Banner will probably trade Joe Thomas in the offseason because of his contract.
For a supposedly awesome business man, Haslam is in over his head and has been snowballed by a weasel just so he can own an NFL team.
This Banner and Lombardi thing just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen....
I'm not a huge Saban fan, but if it meant these guys weren't calling the shots then maybe it's not such a bad thing....
Kelley should stay in college.... its like Steve Spurrier all over again, that kind of play just isn't going to work in the NFL. Think we throw the ball too much now, not even close to what Oregon does- talk about tiring out your own defense!!!
McDaniels does have an offensive mind, give him credit for that. He also single handedly blew up the Broncos....
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For a supposedly awesome business man, Haslam is in over his head and has been snowballed by a weasel just so he can own an NFL team.
Can you explain that?
You know, you can just tell by his body of work...you know, the last 2 months
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I
The Lombardi Factor: Banner has diagramed an organization chart that calls for football operations to report to him. That means Heckert’s position will be replaced by a glorified player personnel director who will work closely with Banner. He may win some battles but ultimately he will have no real authority to establish a vision, pick players or make trades. Banner will set the agenda.
So who would accept these restrictions? Someone who has been out of the league for five years – Mike Lombardi.
I hope a certain Frog is happy now....it's at least been reported now what I saw happening the day I heard Banner open his mouth...not that this could have been seen coming months ago 
Banner = new Mangini "the I'm so smart GM version"
McDaniels = Mangini "the I'm so smart HC version"
Lombardi = new Kokinis
Haslam = new dumb owner getting fooled by double tongues
Lombardi drafted hacks his entire career
Banner has no clue about football "but watches some clips of possible late rounders that scouts like between draft-day nights" lol (he actually said that, I'm not making this up)
McDaniels drafted Tebow in round 1 and spent a 2nd and 1st on CB Alphonso Smith, both are no longer Broncos
Haslam is a fan who thinks he knows football
How does it sound having those 4 men in your war room at draft day making the calls? 
On top, probable switch to the 3-4, new Offense scheme and here we go again Cleveland, have fun with the next 5 year plan
I hope Heckert stays!
all it is saying is how Lombardi wants things. i'm confused as why you automatically assume that it's how Banner/Haslam would agree to it.
it's even noted that this all could be Lombardi/Sexton "scratching each other's backs"
and the bombshell (which really isn't because it's the same thing we all know since Lombardi is a hack):
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I have now have had three credible sources – two in the NFL and one in the college ranks – swear to me that Saban has no attraction whatsoever to Lombardi. One insisted Saban wouldn’t work with Lombardi “in a thousand years.”
J/C
I think I'm going to be sick!
I hope much of this does fall into the "Cowher bought a house in Clevleand" category!
Heckert is probably as good as gone. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he leaves "of his own accord" and winds up in Carolina. Just a gut feeling (and we all know how those turn out around here!)
If Heckert "leaves of his own accord" then I'm assuming he would forfeit the remainder of his contract.
Funny how all of a sudden with this piece Grossi isn't the bumbling fool that everyone constantly says he is.
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Funny how all of a sudden with this piece Grossi isn't the bumbling fool that everyone constantly says he is.
I still say he's a bumbling fool. I'm hoping this is all b.s., but it's the Browns, so the glass is probably going to be half empty - on a good day!
I'm still not buying it....
I don't see how there is really any 'smoke' yet. Just seems like speculation.
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all it is saying is how Lombardi wants things. i'm confused as why you automatically assume that it's how Banner/Haslam would agree to it.
Actually the article is more about how Banner wants things and how Lombardi is one of the few, if not the only, guy that would be willing to work under those circumstances....
The rumors swirling around Banner are troubling indeed.
Bring in anyone who has a sound knowledge of how to run a SUCCESSFUL offense, whether it be NFL or college, and I'm happy.
naw, Lombardi is just a bigger fool
This the kind of stuff that makes me gag. The thought of Lombardi who has failed at every level and the guy who thought Tim Tebow could play quarterback is just to much to handle. Back that up with having Banner the accountant as head of all football decisions and you have a recipe for disaster.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add Brandon Weeden is still the quarterback.
Will the light of day ever shine on the Browns?
Astounding to me how billionaires and experienced football minds come up with such trash. You would think someone could figure out that to win consistently you have to have a championship caliber quarterback and a head coach who knows how to prepare a game plan, provide leadership and motivation.
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experienced football minds
I don't think Haslam or Banner qualify. Even being in the NFL as long as he has doesn't necessarily make Banner a football mind.
If it's not Saban, it's because Haslam and Banner won't give Saban the authority he wants.
Saban will be back in the NFL next year with someone, and he will have final say over their roster.
Let's see ...... we currently have the best personnel guy we have had in decades ....... and that includes the guy supposedly under consideration to be the "new guy" ......
and we know that it takes talent in the NFL to win .......
And the Browns are seen as having an up and coming level of talent ............
So let's tear it all up and start over with a guy who has failed in the past.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
My personal favorite is Banner.
I started a thread asking for the connection to Haslam. Two pages and not a single poster on here could come up with one.
What are his FOOTBALL qualifications? Apparently he was great with managing the cap and negotiating contracts. Cool. What are his FOOTBALL qualifications?
This smells like the NFL pulling some type of favor for Banner and getting Haslam to go along with it. Shame on Haslam. He's the one that ponied up a billion bucks but doesn't have the sack to say no to that crap. Get ready for some fun ownership. Almost makes me miss Lerner. At least with Lerner we'd get to see this team grow next year.
Our draft room might consist of Haslam, a truck stop owner, Banner, a bean counter, Lombardi, a 3 or 4 time failed personnel man who was one of a few people not asked by Modell to join them in Baltimore, and McDaniels, the coach who traded up for Tebow.
Color me excited.
And make no mistake...this ALL starts with Haslam. He's the head honcho.
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And make no mistake...this ALL starts with Haslam. He's the head honcho.
No doubt! I keep trying to remind myself not to get upset since nothing has actually happened yet, but it sure seems like signs are pointing to a very inept front office here.
theres another college HC I like with West Virginia.. Dana Holgorsen. He's only been w/ them a couple years, but offensively he has done well.
I'd delete that post, before you get ripped apart for how bad of a choice he'd be.
He might get fired from WVU, and you want him in the NFL?
i could care less if I get bashed for posting my opinion. lol.
Mangini got fired.. and we still brought him in..
j/K
If Lombardi is our GM, I'm done with football,
If Lombardi is our GM we will be headed backwards again.
If Lombardi is our GM It will conferm to me, we have a Owner who is a lier and only says things to sell tickets.
If lombardi is our GM I will lose all respect & faith in our new owner,
Needless to say I'm tired of all this endless empty faith, just how long can we Browns fans "JUST BE PATIENT" or "WERE BATTELING HARD" talk time is over, dont believe it anymore.
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There are other possibilities of how the Browns’ new direction will unfold, but a Banner-Lombardi-McDaniels triumvirate is currently seen as the most realistic.
I've got no qualms with Banner, but bringing Lombardi and McDaniels here is enough to make me want to cut my heart out.
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This smells like the NFL pulling some type of favor for Banner and getting Haslam to go along with it.
Why in the Hell would the NFL owe Banner anything? 
Now you're just looking for reasons.
Haslam wanted a businessman to help run his organization. How is that an unrealistic expectation for a guy who hasn't owned a professional sports franchise?
Here's a note from Philly.com:
web page
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[banner] But in his role as the team’s salary cap wizard and chief contract negotiator, Banner had a great deal of influence over many of those personnel decisions.
I think Banner had more say in personnel than people know. Does that mean he's totally qualified to do it here? We just don't know, but what I do believe is that he was far more than just a pencil-pusher in Philly.
That doesn't mean I'm good with Dumbardi and the dope that drafted Tim freakin' Tebow in the 1st round.
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There are other possibilities of how the Browns’ new direction will unfold, but a Banner-Lombardi-McDaniels triumvirate is currently seen as the most realistic.
I've got no qualms with Banner, but bringing Lombardi and McDaniels here is enough to make me want to cut my heart out...
If Lombardi comes here - even for a latte and a chat - I'll have a LOT of qualms with Banner.
honestly, if Saban makes the jump back to the NFL this offseason and the Browns cannot have him, then I'm rooting for him to go to Carolina.
for one, he gets to stay in the South.
but, the fun part is that he'd be coaching the last QB that owned his squad: Cam Newton. Auburn fans would be up in arms
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but a Banner-Lombardi-McDaniels triumvirate is currently seen as the most realistic
Also one of the most terrifying. I'd rather have Shurmur, The Walrus, and Heckert instead of these three buffoons.
Hey Tony, stop reading our boards. Come up with your own fancy words!
of the college spread systems, I agree that Holgorsen's (same one that Weeden ran w/ him and then w/o him at OkieState) is the one that seems the most ready to make the jump to the NFL level.
I'm hoping Lombardi is just a smokescreen. Maybe their guy is working in another organization as a player/personnel guy and this was just a bone thrown by Jimmy and Banner to keep attention away from the real guy.
Have Lombardi and Banner worked together before? Where is this connection?
All i can say is i hope that article is a joke because if Lombardi and/or McDaniels are brought in i may just give up NFL football after 46 years.
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Have Lombardi and Banner worked together before? Where is this connection?
From the article above: 
The smooth-talking NFL Network analyst has fostered a relationship with Banner since working for the Philadelphia Eagles in 1997-98. Lombardi, who was Bill Belichick’s first lieutenant in Cleveland after GM Ernie Accorsi left in 1992, was not invited by Art Modell to join the Ravens organization in Baltimore.
Former Eagles coach Ray Rhodes rescued Lombardi with a job in 1997. This was a dream opportunity for Lombardi, who was from the Philadelphia area, but it was lost when the Eagles named Tom Modrak director of football operations. There is a story that on Modrak’s first day on the job, he marched into Lombardi’s office still wearing his overcoat and told Lombardi to pack his belongings. That was the third of Lombardi’s four firings from NFL clubs.
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And make no mistake...this ALL starts with Haslam. He's the head honcho.
No doubt! I keep trying to remind myself not to get upset since nothing has actually happened yet, but it sure seems like signs are pointing to a very inept front office here.
x10
It took Lerner 8 years to finally fix the FO it may take Haslam 1 year to mess it up.
Shurmur was probably the biggest mistake Holmgren make and sadly us Browns fans may end up paying for that mistake for years.
I hope Haslam and Banner realise that new life long die hard fans of the Browns are probably on average older then them. The Browns have lost almost 2 decades of fan growth due to poor play and weak front office personal.
Both my kids are in their 20's and their interest in the Browns is fleeting at best and they dont waste any time on sundays watching the Browns except if someone has them on TV.
Personally I hope Grossi is wrong as usual.
I've heard Grossi on WKNR a few times over the last couple of weeks, and he seems like he is making this seem true, because he has nothing else to go on. I don't think he has any inside with these new guys.
I'm not saying Lombardi can't happen, because we don't really know anything about Jimmy Haslam as an owner yet, but I just don't think this has as much legs as Grossi is making it out to be.
J/C
It's a pity really.
Since Al died,the Browns have been owned by the sons of self made billionaires,not by the guys that know how to make sound decisions.
Oh well,maybe in another 10 years the new buffoon will be selling the franchise.
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J/C
It's a pity really.
Since Al died,the Browns have been owned by the sons of self made billionaires,not by the guys that know how to make sound decisions.
Oh well,maybe in another 10 years the new buffoon will be selling the franchise.
I could be wrong, but wasn't his dad's company somewhat small, and his son actually turned it into the multi billion dollar company it is now? I know he was responsible for them merging in the past.
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J/C
It's a pity really.
Since Al died,the Browns have been owned by the sons of self made billionaires,not by the guys that know how to make sound decisions.
Oh well,maybe in another 10 years the new buffoon will be selling the franchise.
I could be wrong, but wasn't his dad's company somewhat small, and his son actually turned it into the multi billion dollar company it is now? I know he was responsible for them merging in the past.
You are very correct.
This son made the billions.... but, he started with millions.
In either case, he is striking me as a college football fan that wants to bring his college fandom to the NFL.
Granted, the beat writers have nothing else to go on but their own speculation at this point, so that is a lot of what we are getting.... but there is an awful LOT of smoke around this one for there to not be a fire, somewhere. I find it to be really disconcerting and I'm getting a very strong feeling that we're about to get mired in crap yet again.
Stand by for the next Decade of Sadness. 
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J/C
It's a pity really.
Since Al died,the Browns have been owned by the sons of self made billionaires,not by the guys that know how to make sound decisions.
Oh well,maybe in another 10 years the new buffoon will be selling the franchise.
Al didn't know his football ass from a hole-in-the-ground either.
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J/C
It's a pity really.
Since Al died,the Browns have been owned by the sons of self made billionaires,not by the guys that know how to make sound decisions.
Oh well,maybe in another 10 years the new buffoon will be selling the franchise.
Al didn't know his football ass from a hole-in-the-ground either.
Which is very true but if a blind squirrel can find a nut what are the odds of a 2nd blind squirrel in the same yard also finding a nut, and on the first day no less?
I said when I first heard about Banner coming here I didnt like the idea and nothing has changed my mind, esp the more rumors point to the possible changes coming.
J/C
not pointing at anyone in particular, but the knee jerk over reacting going on in this thread is comical.
How many owners actually do?
Haslam+Banner+Lombardi=championship
My math skills suck,but man that equation don't look right to me.
Apparently Grossi is on WKNR right now throwing Tom Cable's name out there too? If its true that he is (I'm not listening right now, maybe someone here is), I think it's safe to say that he's at best throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, and at worst he's just trolling the fan base.
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How many owners actually do?
Haslam+Banner+Lombardi=championship
My math skills suck,but man that equation don't look right to me.
hmm, well, since the NFL championship is often referred to as a Lombardi (due to the trophy being the Lombardi trophy), you have to adjust your equation.
Haslam+ Banner = Lombardi
Haslam + Banner - Lombardi = Lombardi - Lombardi
Haslam + Banner - Lombardi = 0
So, Haslam and Banner are proven to be nothing without Lombardi. I expect this logic to be in tomorrow's PFT columns and reported as being a "source."
will y + mx + b get rid of Lombardi?
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How many owners actually do?
Haslam+Banner+Lombardi=championship
My math skills suck,but man that equation don't look right to me.
hmm, well, since the NFL championship is often referred to as a Lombardi (due to the trophy being the Lombardi trophy), you have to adjust your equation.
Haslam+ Banner = Lombardi
Haslam + Banner - Lombardi = Lombardi - Lombardi
Haslam + Banner - Lombardi = 0
So, Haslam and Banner are proven to be nothing without Lombardi. I expect this logic to be in tomorrow's PFT columns and reported as being a "source."
You made a math error.
Haslam + Banner + Lombardi = championship, where championship = Lombardi
Substituting in, we get
Haslam + Banner + Lombardi = Lombardi
so,
Haslam + Banner = Lombardi - Lombardi = 0
Therefore, Haslam = -Banner
Obviously then, Banner is Haslam's evil twin, hellbent on world domination.
Why would Saban want to return to the NFL? He's got a dream job now. He tried the NFL and left of his own accord.
Banner and Haslam can do whatever they want. I wont be holding my breath waiting for the wins to roll in lol. The fans with the big mouth and low IQ have what they wanted.
I really want to be Leslie Nielsen via Airplane, coming into Jimmy's office every 5 minutes saying that we are all counting on him.
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J/C
not pointing at anyone in particular, but the knee jerk over reacting going on in this thread is comical.
I was thinking this on the drive back to my house: If all this about Dumbardi and McDaniels turns out to be false, Grossi might as well find a new city to move to because he'll have officially fallen into the Roger Brown category...
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Why would Saban want to return to the NFL? He's got a dream job now. He tried the NFL and left of his own accord.
Because he has absolutely nothing left to accomplish in the college game.
He left because he didn't have the QB needed to win big in the NFL, after Dolphins team doctors told him no to Drew Brees.
When he agrees to coach an NFL team, it'll be one of two situations.
1. A team with a top 5 draft pick, and there's a QB coming out that he thinks is an NFL quality QB.
2. A team with a QB already in place. Does he think Weeden is that guy? Who knows.
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When he agrees to coach an NFL team, it'll be one of two situations.
1. A team with a top 5 draft pick, and there's a QB coming out that he thinks is an NFL quality QB.
2. A team with a QB already in place. Does he think Weeden is that guy? Who knows.
I think there's a #3: He gets complete control over the roster.
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I was thinking this on the drive back to my house: If all this about Dumbardi and McDaniels turns out to be false, Grossi might as well find a new city to move to because he'll have officially fallen into the Roger Brown category...
Awesome, the immature nicknames have already started. Other than that I agree with your post.
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I was thinking this on the drive back to my house: If all this about Dumbardi and McDaniels turns out to be false, Grossi might as well find a new city to move to because he'll have officially fallen into the Roger Brown category...
Awesome, the immature nicknames have already started. Other than that I agree with your post.
You expected anything less from the guy who said Banner wouldnt be in control of personal yet now is being linked to a GM who will be his puppet and have no control over personal? 
The person who said Haslam and Banner are heads and tails above the previous 2 people in those positions and will turn the Browns into an instant crediable org and team?
While I agree with Grossi becoming the new Rodger Brown I still stand by what I said when I 1st heard about the sale. Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.
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Stand by for the next Decade of Sadness.
Shoot me now.
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The Lombardi Factor: Banner has diagramed an organization chart that calls for football operations to report to him. That means Heckert’s position will be replaced by a glorified player personnel director who will work closely with Banner. He may win some battles but ultimately he will have no real authority to establish a vision, pick players or make trades. Banner will set the agenda.
So who would accept these restrictions? Someone who has been out of the league for five years – Mike Lombardi.
jc..
So Banner wants a puppet so he can have more control over the football operations, without appearing to have more control over the football operations? Kind of sounds like Banner wants to insulate himself in the case of failure.
When I first heard that Banner would be taking over as Pres/CEO, I was concerned that Banner's history with Philly would follow him here and limit the Browns chances at hiring top shelf talent. Looks like my concerns were warranted.
Banner has never been in charge of the football side of a franchise, yet he is demanding control over the football side of the franchise with "everyone" reporting to him.
Folks, Nick Saban would never work under Joe Banner...#1, Banner is a rookie and a HC such as Saban is not going to report to someone who is as inexperienced as Banner is ...#2, Banner has a history that follows him to Cleveland...a history of creating conflict within a franchise over the issue of power..an issue of control.
Finding "quality" management and coaching willing to work under Banner is going to be a problem. As of now, it looks like the Browns can do no better for the GM position, than someone who went 5 yrs without a job offer...hardly a hot commodity.
This is all on Haslam and Banner...the foundation for this team was built when they took over and now it is up to them to finish the job...no excuses !
I'm still hoping for the best in all of this but if Banner is such a liability and Haslem did so much research meeting with other Owners, etc.. how did he end up deciding on Banner?
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I'm still hoping for the best in all of this but if Banner is such a liability and Haslem did so much research meeting with other Owners, etc.. how did he end up deciding on Banner?
Perhaps because Banner is a business guy, and good with the numbers to make things profitable?
Perhaps they're looking at how much crap we perennially put up with and STILL keep coming back and spending money and are taking it for granted?
Perhaps he's just a guy with a boatload of money and needed a new toy to get into a very elite circle of billionaires and this team was his Golden Ticket?
Mike Brown made tons of money fielding a perennial loser in Cinci for what... two decades?
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Perhaps because Banner is a business guy, and good with the numbers to make things profitable?
If that's the case and that's the part of the job he does, then all of these rumors are wrong and I'm ok with that.
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Perhaps they're looking at how much crap we perennially put up with and STILL keep coming back and spending money and are taking it for granted?
Haslem knows that truckers will stop for gas when they need gas even at crappy truck stops, but they will stop more if the truck stop is nice. I'm assuming he knows the same thing about football, profits go up when you win, the value of your franchise goes up when you win... he's not going to make a little just because he can when he could win and make a lot more.
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Perhaps he's just a guy with a boatload of money and needed a new toy to get into a very elite circle of billionaires and this team was his Golden Ticket?
Who Banner? Haslem doesn't need Banners money and you're talking about Haslem and he just wanted a new toy, why would you put a guy in charge that might break your toy?
I don't believe one word of this bull$#!% and wont until I see it. Lombardi? Really? Banner and Haslam would both have to be complete and utter fools to have anything to do with him. Grossi has an axe to grind with Lombardi, (not that he doesn't have reason,) so anything he can do to stir the pot to dissuade Lombardi's consideration is certainly within Grossi's wheelhouse.
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I don't believe one word of this bull$#!% and wont until I see it. Lombardi? Really? Banner and Haslam would both have to be complete and utter fools to have anything to do with him. Grossi has an axe to grind with Lombardi, (not that he doesn't have reason,) so anything he can do to stir the pot to dissuade Lombardi's consideration is certainly within Grossi's wheelhouse.
Not really Cal, they may, as the article eludes to, just want a puppet.. That's just a flat out mistake, but I can see it if that's what they want.
I think the poster you are referring to keeps jumping to that "go wild" square
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I don't believe one word of this bull$#!% and wont until I see it. Lombardi? Really? Banner and Haslam would both have to be complete and utter fools to have anything to do with him. Grossi has an axe to grind with Lombardi, (not that he doesn't have reason,) so anything he can do to stir the pot to dissuade Lombardi's consideration is certainly within Grossi's wheelhouse.
Not really Cal, they may, as the article eludes to, just want a puppet.. That's just a flat out mistake, but I can see it if that's what they want.
As I stated, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm erring on the side of Grossiness. Or is it Grossicitude?
After the news of the new president being hired, Grossi looks like a major buffon. Casting Banner as a guy who no one wants to work for. Meanwhile, one of the brightest young executives in the business is probably on his way to Cleveland to accept the job as president the same day this article is published.
[image]https://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/view.php?file=eggonface.jpg[/image]
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I don't believe one word of this bull$#!% and wont until I see it. Lombardi? Really? Banner and Haslam would both have to be complete and utter fools to have anything to do with him. Grossi has an axe to grind with Lombardi, (not that he doesn't have reason,) so anything he can do to stir the pot to dissuade Lombardi's consideration is certainly within Grossi's wheelhouse.
Not really Cal, they may, as the article eludes to, just want a puppet.. That's just a flat out mistake, but I can see it if that's what they want.
As I stated, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm erring on the side of Grossiness. Or is it Grossicitude?
LOL Gotcha
I prefer Grossism
How about Grossineptitude?
Too "on the nose".
J/C
Haslam and Banner have done nothing except hire a new president, but yet all the geniuses who post on this message board know all the mistakes they are going to make. I mean everything is looked at as wrong.
I can almost gaurantee that no one on these boards truly knows what Banner actually did for Philly. Also those bashing Haslam and calling him a baffoon are idiots. They know nothing about this guy. He was a partial owner of the Steelers for god's sake, I'm sure he is not the fool he is being made out to be here.
There is so much pessimism towards any and everything done with this team, I sometimes wonder if many really would enjoy winning, as they are so happy just bashing everything and everyone who touches this team.
They call this the greatest fanbase, but who are they? The fanbase themselves? It is no wonder many refuse to work for the Browns, before they even start many of the fans spend most of their time putting them down. Nobody gets a fair chance with this fanbase, it is immediate success, or down the road they want you. No wonder this team continues to flounder, the karma from the fans is pitiful.
I myself will wait and see what Haslam does before I make up immature nicknames for him and anybody who he hires. Many here talk as if they could step in and run this organization, it is hilarious. This ain't fantasy, it is real. Haslam has been associated with some of the best while being part owner of the Steelers. I'm sure he is qualified and has way more understanding of how to do it then those jackaholes on here who bash him and call him assinine names.
Banner was successful in Philly whether many like him or not. So I will trust him more than some fool on a message board who thinks they know him and what he will do.
Reading many of the posts here only remind me of why some of the better posters that used to inhabit this board are long gone. Much of the conversation here now is regurgitated crap spewed from self proclaimed know-it-alls.
I'm done, sorry for the rant.
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J/C
Haslam and Banner have done nothing except hire a new president, but yet all the geniuses who post on this message board know all the mistakes they are going to make. I mean everything is looked at as wrong.
I can almost gaurantee that no one on these boards truly knows what Banner actually did for Philly. Also those bashing Haslam and calling him a baffoon are idiots. They know nothing about this guy. He was a partial owner of the Steelers for god's sake, I'm sure he is not the fool he is being made out to be here.
There is so much pessimism towards any and everything done with this team, I sometimes wonder if many really would enjoy winning, as they are so happy just bashing everything and everyone who touches this team.
They call this the greatest fanbase, but who are they? The fanbase themselves? It is no wonder many refuse to work for the Browns, before they even start many of the fans spend most of their time putting them down. Nobody gets a fair chance with this fanbase, it is immediate success, or down the road they want you. No wonder this team continues to flounder, the karma from the fans is pitiful.
I myself will wait and see what Haslam does before I make up immature nicknames for him and anybody who he hires. Many here talk as if they could step in and run this organization, it is hilarious. This ain't fantasy, it is real. Haslam has been associated with some of the best while being part owner of the Steelers. I'm sure he is qualified and has way more understanding of how to do it then those jackaholes on here who bash him and call him assinine names.
Banner was successful in Philly whether many like him or not. So I will trust him more than some fool on a message board who thinks they know him and what he will do.
Reading many of the posts here only remind me of why some of the better posters that used to inhabit this board are long gone. Much of the conversation here now is regurgitated crap spewed from self proclaimed know-it-alls.
I'm done, sorry for the rant.
Ranting or venting is fine but many of us have seen good FO stuff and finally see good things happening then we see much of the same we have watched for the past decade and we now can see a road we dont want to once again travel down.
You just said why dont others give the new a chance and I say why dont we give the current a chance to continue down the path of what looks like success?
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Haslam and Banner have done nothing except hire a new president, but yet all the geniuses who post on this message board know all the mistakes they are going to make. I mean everything is looked at as wrong.
No, everything is not looked at as wrong. What alarms people, and should alarm you, is what looks like his next course of action. Namely, forcing out Heckert and hiring Lombardi as his "yes" man.
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They call this the greatest fanbase, but who are they? The fanbase themselves? It is no wonder many refuse to work for the Browns, before they even start many of the fans spend most of their time putting them down. Nobody gets a fair chance with this fanbase, it is immediate success, or down the road they want you. No wonder this team continues to flounder, the karma from the fans is pitiful.
Yes, it's the fan's fault that the team has sucked for the last decade plus.... Honestly, that has to qualify as one of the 5 dumbest statements made on this board in the last 10 years. Seriously, if it weren't for all us karma-challenged fans you'd probably be rooting for the Los Angeles Browns....Because if JH didn't think us idiot fans would help him recoup his $1 billion investment you can be sure that he either wouldn't have bought the team or it would be headed out of town on the next express train west.
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Reading many of the posts here only remind me of why some of the better posters that used to inhabit this board are long gone. Much of the conversation here now is regurgitated crap spewed from self proclaimed know-it-alls.
Actually, almost to a man those hallowed posters that you worship left because people stopped groveling at their feet and starting questioning their logic. While some may miss their points of view I doubt many miss their condescending tone(s).
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What alarms people, and should alarm you, is what looks like his next course of action. Namely, forcing out Heckert and hiring Lombardi as his "yes" man.
Just thinking out loud here. If Banner is as power hungry as is being claimed on this board, why hire a yes man GM at all? Why not just do the job himself and save the organization some $. I mean, Jerry Jones in Dallas has said he'll be the GM. Why doesn't Banner do the same thing? Is it because he might not actually be planning to be the guy who does the GM's job? Or is that wrong because it doesn't jive with the board pessimists?
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Haslam and Banner have done nothing except hire a new president, but yet all the geniuses who post on this message board know all the mistakes they are going to make.
Same thing happens during all elections.
In my case, I'm only talking about what Banner has said. he said, he's bias towards the HC being the final say. That to me sounds like Heckert is gone. Not what I want.
But let me say this, depending on who the HC is, it might be just fine.
I don't understand the hiring of this guy as president, but then, I'm sure they have a plan. if it's more as a CAPologist, then ok,, whatever. I don't think this guy had much to do with talent on the field so I don't think I really care about him at all.
Not sure if this should go here or in the Weeden thread, but it's mostly rehash about the grossi article... with one little extra tidbit.
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Will Josh McDaniels be Cleveland bound?
By Greg A. Bedard, Globe Staff
On Dec. 9, after speaking to two influential NFL sources, I wrote that NFL Network analyst Michael Lombardi was a serious candidate to be the next general manager of the Browns should owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner decide to part ways with Tom Heckert and coach Pat Shurmur.
And if Lombardi was hired, Alabama coach Nick Saban would be the top target followed by Oregon coach Chip Kelly and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels.
With the hiring of Alec Scheiner as Browns president on Tuesday, it looks like we're a step closer to everything becoming reality.
From long-time Browns beat writer Tony Grossi:
Banner will oversee football operations and, we’ve been told by sources, will name Lombardi to a glorified player personnel director position.
As far as the coaching front once that happens, Grossi names the targets: Saban (long shot), Kelly (long shot because he can demand personnel control if he wants) and McDaniels.
Independently, Saban, who has built a national powerhouse at Alabama, is believed to be Haslam’s first choice to coach the Browns. ... There is one rumor that Haslam is prepared to offer Saban a $100 million deal over 10 years to coach the Browns. ....Two sources who know Saban have told me that Saban is leaning toward staying at Alabama and if he ever sought to scratch that NFL itch again, it would not be in Cleveland.
In my job, I don't really care what happens with Saban and Kelly, but the McDaniels situation is certainly interesting.
Would he leave after just one season? Yes, if it was the right situation. A Banner-Lombardi-McDaniels trio, McDaniels being a born-and-bred Ohioan, and a chance to rebuild where the Bill Belichick tree was first planted, would be factors that would likely get a blessing from Belichick.
What would the Patriots do at offensive coordinator? Wide receivers coach Chad O'Shea is the only viable candidate currently on the staff, and now three years into his Patriots tenure, the former college quarterback should be ready.
An outside (and probably long shot) candidate could be former tight ends coach Brian Ferentz, who spent last season as the offensive line coach for his father, Kirk, at Iowa.
One more log to throw on the fire: those two initial sources said that if Lombardi and McDaniels indeed team up in Cleveland, the chances are good that they will attempt to trade for Patriots backup quarterback Ryan Mallett and install him as the franchise quarterback. Brandon Weeden would be out, or in a backup role.
web page
That's a new one to me. Not sure how I feel about it either.
Ugh. Very hopeful that it's just more poo flinging.
Lombardi as GM
McDaniels as HC
Mallet as QB
Ugh. Double, no Triple-Ugh.
Obviously McDaniels knows Mallet.
And Lombardi probably fell in love w him while doing research on walterfootball...
My LORD, how on EARTH are these scenarios concocted?????
I think it's worth pointing out that Lombardi has been very critical of Heckert and the Weeden pick.
That could have been just posturing for a job too.
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Banner not confirming or denying anything. Will move 'quickly' once season ends.
My guess, within the week after the season ends, the entire coaching staff will be gone as well as Heckert. I know, really taking a leap there.
New line of thinking: Which teams will have GM openings? Carolina, San Diego, & Kansas City spring to mind.
Not sure if someone can find out, but what if Heckert won't be granted the level of power he wants ANYWHERE?
Which team has new fan openings? I sure as hell wont be rooting for an ass like McDaniels and a bigger ass in Lombardi. We will have Mangenius and Kokopuffs 2.0
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New line of thinking: Which teams will have GM openings? Carolina, San Diego, & Kansas City spring to mind.
My money is on Carolina. Just a rumbling here or there and a "gut feeling" lead me to that speculation.
Except Mangini had no one to keep him in check. He had full control over everything. McDaniels, if hired, would have an owner, CEO, and GM above him to keep him in check.
How is that like Mangini and Kokinis?
It is a REALLY bad mental picture, Mourg...
Would each one of them bring a big-board to the war room? Would coin flips and darts be involved?
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I think it's worth pointing out that Lombardi has been very critical of Heckert and the Weeden pick.
That could have been just posturing for a job too.
Everyone who evaluates drafts must be posturing for a job with us because pretty much everyone hated that pick.
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New line of thinking: Which teams will have GM openings? Carolina, San Diego, & Kansas City spring to mind.
My money is on Carolina. Just a rumbling here or there and a "gut feeling" lead me to that speculation.
ok, so what if Heckert goes to Carolina to be GM, Mangini takes the HC job there and brings Romeo in to be his DC. He keeps Chud OC but brings in Daboll for a lower level position coach.
Derek Anderson is already the backup QB, so then they just need to sign Braylon, Hillis, Quinn (for QB3) and a smattering of defensive ex-Browns and they will be on their way to the Superbowl!!!
I might be able to deal with McDaniels as a head coach if he had someone like Heckert watching over, or I might be O.K. with Lombardi if we had a strong head coach that called the shots ala Bellicheck(sp). But I do not like Mcdaniels or Lombardi as a unit . They cannot draft and seem clueless relating to personell moves.
At least Lombardi would have prior experience working under an evil overlord (Al Davis), so he will be ready for Banner.
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At least Lombardi would have prior experience working under an evil overlord (Al Davis), so he will be ready for Banner.
Is that you, Mac?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...p-at-browns-jobJosh McDaniels would reportedly jump at Browns jobThe Cleveland Browns are an improved team this season, but that improvement might not be enough to save the jobs of coach Pat Shurmur and general manager Tom Heckert.
New Browns CEO Joe Banner said Tuesday he would act swiftly in deciding the fate of both men after the season ends.
"I don't want to say if it's one day or two days or three days but I think it will be quickly," Banner said on a conference call to announce the hiring of Alec Scheiner as team president.
The million-dollar question is what comes next in Cleveland if the Shurmur and Heckert duo -- 9-22 over two seasons -- are jettisoned.
The Boston Globe reported this week that Alabama head coach Nick Saban, Oregon's Chip Kelly and New England Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels are on the radar. A source told The Plain Dealer that McDaniels, fired as coach of the Denver Broncos in 2010, would "jump at the chance" to coach the Browns.With men in place in Cleveland still trying to do their jobs and win games, much of this chatter is premature. Banner isn't talking about tomorrow, not yet.
"I'm going to stick with the same answer," Banner said. "Starting to go down the path of speculating on these things is not going to be helpful at this point. We're still going to decide at the end of the season on the people that are here and that will lead to whatever the next steps are at that point."
If any of these rumors turn out to be true, the Haslam and Banner have some loose lips in the organization, which isn't a good thing at all!
j/c
In no way, shape or form do I want McDaniels here in any capacity.
Ryan Mallett on the other hand I think would be a great pick up. I wanted him in the 2011 draft.
The 12th man could always use more supporters!
Wasn't Mallet the guy who reminded people of DA?
Brady is an amazing QB, but he will be 36 when next season starts. I would think that a really good backuop becomes more important as he gets older. I would think that it's easier to get injured at 36 than it is at 26.
I would also think that the Patriots could make a compelling case with Mallett (when his contract is up) to keep him if they really like him. wWho wouldn't want to take over the perfect offense with a coach renowned for being able to tailor his schemes to his talent?
We are also already missing our 2nd round pick next year, and I would assume that a former 1st rounder who hasn't been "dinged" ould still demand a 1st plus in a trade. How much should we give up?
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Wasn't Mallet the guy who reminded people of DA?
yes, in college he threw full speed no matter how close the WR was to the LOS or how open he was. that WR knew the pass was coming in at 100mph.
He was also a bit of a knucklehead, wasn't he?
Mallet was a third round pick.
Saban is still option #1 for Haslam.
Might not get done. Saban might want more power than he'd get here, but he's option #1.
I am not thrilled by the possible Lombardi/McDaniels hire. I expect that within 2 years the roster would be completely revamped (again) with considerably less talent and us being excited to eek out a 4-12 season while looking forward to "next year".
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I think this is all very plausible. Probably likely.
Honestly, I'd be ok with McDaniels. I am intrigued this time around by him.
Banner/Lombardi scare the crap out of me. Banner will probably trade Joe Thomas in the offseason because of his contract.
For a supposedly awesome business man, Haslam is in over his head and has been snowballed by a weasel just so he can own an NFL team.
Ugh.
Not interested in Mallet at all. I remember hearing rumblings that he might not even make the Pats roster this year. He was AWFUL in preseason.
I watched him quite a bit in college. He had moments of brilliance but too many "shake your head" moments to go along with it.
Take the bowl game against OSU. He led a great comeback and then threw a terrible pick in the redzone when it was pressure time. Game, set, match.
No thanks.
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I mean, Jerry Jones in Dallas has said he'll be the GM. Why doesn't Banner do the same thing? Is it because he might not actually be planning to be the guy who does the GM's job? Or is that wrong because it doesn't jive with the board pessimists?
Or maybe he wants someone to take the brunt of the blame if the personnel decisions he makes stink. I believe that's called a patsy.
Look, I'd love to be optimistic about what I see coming up. I was looking forward to the season immensely after the draft in April. I was very optimistic when Haslam was rumored to be buying the team. This was tempered drastically when Banner was hired. But I still felt things were going in the right direction.
Then Lombardi's name came up. Followed by Banner's non-denial denials about Lombardi's chances at a job here. Then the stories speculating about all manner of scenarios where the team is blown up again.
Now individually these stories may be all flash with no substance. But all of them put together with what I see so far from the FO gives me a very queasy feeling. There's way too much smoke for there not to be a fire in the foreseeable future. I think the entire coaching staff will be fired along with Tom Heckert by the kickoff of the first playoff game. And I don't like that at all. That will lead to a total revamping of the roster and......here we go again.
I'm tired of being embarrassed when I wear my Browns gear. And all the moves that I believe may very well be less than a month away will only add to that.
I hope I'm wrong. I'm willing to wait a little while to see what happens between now and next Spring. (Do I really have a choice?). But I'm not getting that warm and fuzzy feeling. If that makes me a pessimist, so be it.
Couldn;t have been that awful if they let go of their other QB to clear Mallett to be number 2.
The guy performed in the toughest defensive division in college football. That has to be worth something. I'm not saying I'm ready to ditch Weeden but if for some reason we did get our hands on Mallett, I'd be very interested to see what he could do.
ALL that being said, I hope we stick with Weeden for this next yeat at least. Despite all grumblings, our offense has looked better under him than it has in years. And really, there's no real slam dunks coming out at QB this year as Barkley's stock plummeted this season.
I don't see that much difference between Weeden , and Mallett, other than age. Both have cannons for arms, both have zero mobility, and both have low completion %, and will take plenty of risks. Other than Mallett, playing in that system, not sure if he's much of an upgrade.
You know what's about to happen,I know what's about to happen,anyone with half a brain can see what's about to transpire.
While I do like McDaniels,that's only because I know his old man,Banner and Lombardi calling the shots on draft day will be a disaster.
Oh well,in a few short years the Browns can become the Knoxville Knockedups.That will make the hillbillies happy.
I'm not totally dismissing McDaniel just because he failed in Denver. A lot of young guys got it wrong on the first shot and then became great coaches, and he's worked under the best. If he loves Mallet, that says a lot, although he's the dope who picked Tebow.
What worries me is Banner. All this talk is obviously coming from him, and it gives the impression he is running roughshod over Haslam. If I were Haslam, I would have already heard enough. Banner clearly wants to settle some sort of old score with Heckert, he was never considering keeping Shurmur and he is allowing - even fostering - rumors that his GM choice is a guy who has never drafted a single solid player from what I can tell. A guy who has been fired four times and no one likes. This is what Banner has contributed so far. Haslam should fire HIM.
J/C
If Tom Heckert is let go, I will not be renewing my season tickets. From how this looks right now, there is no plan in place, there is no clear decision maker, and we may end up with a businessman having a say in draft decisions. Jimmy Haslam has already made his biggest mistake: Letting Holmgren leave and hiring Banner.
Is there anybody in the world that would rather see a football organization run by the likes of Banner and his cronies than Holmgren and Tom Heckert?
Don't fool yourselves guys, this is a complete disaster. Mark my words: Banner and every guy he hires will all be fired within 3 years. I'm 100% sure of it.
Rooting for the Browns has turned out to be a huge waste of time and money. I cannot believe these idiots are going to get rid of Heckert to bring in the likes of Lombardi and McDaniels.
A complete disaster.
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J/C
If Tom Heckert is let go, I will not be renewing my season tickets. From how this looks right now, there is no plan in place, there is no clear decision maker, and we may end up with a businessman having a say in draft decisions. Jimmy Haslam has already made his biggest mistake: Letting Holmgren leave and hiring Banner.
Is there anybody in the world that would rather see a football organization run by the likes of Banner and his cronies than Holmgren and Tom Heckert?
Don't fool yourselves guys, this is a complete disaster. Mark my words: Banner and every guy he hires will all be fired within 3 years. I'm 100% sure of it.
Rooting for the Browns has turned out to be a huge waste of time and money. I cannot believe these idiots are going to get rid of Heckert to bring in the likes of Lombardi and McDaniels.
A complete disaster.
That's frustration talking.. what if they hire what you feel is a solid GM and HC and Coaching Staff? Will you keep your Season ticks then?
By the way, I get your frustration.. I think we mostly all are frustrated and tired of all the changing and not allowing these kids to grow together with consistent leadership.
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From how this looks right now
Muni, I too feel your frustration. The key is in what you said - how it looks NOW. With all the smoke there's usually fire, but I'm going to wait these next few weeks to see what happens. Being an optimist (maybe an idiot as a Browns fan!), I'm going to continue to wait to see what the decision makers - whomever they may be - actually do moving forward.
Right now it's all speculation.
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J/C
If Tom Heckert is let go, I will not be renewing my season tickets. From how this looks right now, there is no plan in place, there is no clear decision maker, and we may end up with a businessman having a say in draft decisions. Jimmy Haslam has already made his biggest mistake: Letting Holmgren leave and hiring Banner.
Is there anybody in the world that would rather see a football organization run by the likes of Banner and his cronies than Holmgren and Tom Heckert?
Don't fool yourselves guys, this is a complete disaster. Mark my words: Banner and every guy he hires will all be fired within 3 years. I'm 100% sure of it.
Rooting for the Browns has turned out to be a huge waste of time and money. I cannot believe these idiots are going to get rid of Heckert to bring in the likes of Lombardi and McDaniels.
A complete disaster.
While I understand what you're saying, I just don't see why you and so many other people are ready to quit be a fan or stop going to games over a front office decision.
Need I remind you, the record under MH and TH is terrible. There's no guarantee this team even gets better next year if they were staying. And even if the whole front office and coaching staff is new, that doesn't mean we'll be worse.....again, we have been "turrible" for quite a while.
And one more thing, if a guy spends the kind of money JHaslam has spent, he should be allowed to hire or fire anyone he wants.
I'm along for the ride regardless. The Browns are my team and they'll always be. And really, it's just professional football.....about as meaningless as anything can be. I just don't see why so many are on here recently proclaiming the end of their fandom.
Well, maybe you'd feel differently if you were the one plunking down $900+ to watch this mess year-after-year.
I don't think most will stop being fans. They'll just stay home and watch on TV (if there's nothing better to do at least...
) However, I don't blame anybody who decides they've had enough and aren't willing to directly pay for yet another rebuild.
I may be one of those people. I almost didn't renew THIS season. If things look like they're going to get blown up badly enough, I may take the advice of a poster on this board: save my money and buy the best HD TV I can afford and watch from the comfort of my family room.
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save my money and buy the best HD TV I can afford and watch from the comfort of my family room.
I did this 2 years ago and never looked back
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Well, maybe you'd feel differently if you were the one plunking down $900+ to watch this mess year-after-year.
Well, I'm shelling out close to $2,500 on two Bears season tickets and parking. And while the Bears record has been a lot better, they've been almost as disappointing as the Browns (7-1 start this year then going 1-5 which will cost the a playoff spot - AND essentially doing the same thing last year).
At least for me, I can sell my tickets above or at face.
Then you get my point. I have a hard time GIVING away Browns tickets.
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f Tom Heckert is let go, I will not be renewing my season tickets.
I think that TH has done a nice job as our GM. I would like him to stay but if he leaves it is not the end of the world. He is not the only GM who can help turn the Browns into a winning franchise. And he might not be a good fit with the new HC.
I think we can be safe in saying Shurmur is gone. Presuming that is true, what happens if we bring in a HC who runs a 3-4 defense? TH is absolutely wonderful at finding players for the 4-3 defense but he is significantly less proficient at doing that for a 3-4.
Another issue is the ability to identify QB talent. He has never demonstrated a knack for finding Qb's. In Philly, how much was he involved in the Vick signing? He certainly was high on Kolb. Then here we have McCoy and Weeden. How much of these picks were on Holmgren? Who knows. And there was the lack of trading up for RGIII. How much of that was on him vs Holmgren? Again, we will never know. And until we get a good QB that fits the offensive system we run, we will never be perennial winners. I do have some question as to whether or not Heckert is the guy to do that.
Now if we fire TH and replace him with Lombardi then I will support you 100% in the selling of your season tickets.
And one more thought on the Lombardi coming to Cleveland rumor. People keep saying "Where there is smoke there is fire". But in the internet age you need to be careful. Is there really that much smoke? There was one report that "2 credible NFL sources" said that Lombardi is a GM candidate for the Browns. Then there were what 10 other similar stories all citing this same original story. Just a bunch of media guys parroting one of their colleagues. It spreads because the rumor involves a talking head from NFL network that most football recognize. And it is an easy story to write. No research to do. You just re-write what everyone else is writing and sign your name at the bottom. Lazy journalism.
Wasn't Lombardi's mentioned before Heckert was hired too?
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Wasn't Lombardi's mentioned before Heckert was hired too?
Honestly, I don't remember that at all
Thank you! I've been thinking (and hoping) since this rumor started that who would be the most likely source in the media of such a rumor? Hmmm? Who would have lots of contacts through out the league but not much actual leverage? Hmmmmmm? Who would know a large number of sports journalists and could easily get just such a rumor ball rolling? Hmmmmmmmm? Who's name keeps coming up around the league for various GM jobs over the years despite the repeated contention that he's unemployable by most professional standards? Where COULD this rumor be coming from? Hmmm... you get the idea.
Yea this could all be Lombardi and his media cronies pumping him up to help him get his name in consideration for a job. I mean he is on NFLN and ESPN and he has also been doing the Showtime circuit as well.
Banner made it worse by leaving the door open for the speculation with the comments of thats just someone taking a shot in the dark and there may or may not be any truth to it. What the hell kind of answer is that, especially if you are wanting to defend the guys in place?
I just hope Haslam appreciates the strides this group of kids have made and if Shurmur has to go he promotes Jauron, Rhodes or Chilly. I havent agreed with Heckert on many decisions but he has done very well in each of his drafts.
Another solid draft and a year's experience and I think we are competing for the divisional if not conference title next year. We lost to the Ravens twice and both were nail bitters final play type games, split with the Bengals and in position to possibly sweep the Steelers. We have taken huge strides this year with a roster full of kids.
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And one more thing, if a guy spends the kind of money JHaslam has spent, he should be allowed to hire or fire anyone he wants.
Very true. But that doesn't mean I have to willingly hand over my hard earned cash to watch the coming clusterbomb up close and personal.
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I'm along for the ride regardless. The Browns are my team and they'll always be. And really, it's just professional football.....about as meaningless as anything can be. I just don't see why so many are on here recently proclaiming the end of their fandom.
And if it's as meaningless as you proclaim why do you care what anyone else does? I've said a couple of times that if they start from scratch I'm done with this team. Now as time passes I might change my mind. But if I do it will probably be more a factor of my inability to sell my PSL's than it will be anything the Browns' front office will do to calm my fears of the impending crap storm.
Sorry, "meaningless" was a poor choice of words.
This is entertainment. Good or bad, it's still entertainment. Heck, not every movie or story has a happy ending, just like your average Browns season.
I'm trying to view the Browns, and Bears for that matter, like a movie that I don't know if it's a drama, comedy, thriller or depressing chick flick. And just go with it. Good or bad, I paid the money to see football....and I got a show.
Now, if you're only interested in watching "movies" where the good guy wins....sure, I understand your frustration and I have no problem with your decision to no renew your season tickets. Fair decision.
In my original statement, I said not renewing OR making proclimations of being 100% done with the team too. That's the part I'm not getting. We're Browns fans, we've watched a crappy team play crappy even under this regime and we haven't left before Haslam bought the team....so why would we leave now? How much more crappy can they be from here on out?
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How much more crappy can they be from here on out?
That's what I've asked myself after every season since 2005 (my first year as a season ticket holder). Yet, with one noteable exception, they've never failed to dissapoint. Miserably.
Like I said, I was born a Browns fan. I will always BE a Browns fan. However, it's getting harder and harder to justify the expense (and, increasingly, the hassle) of going to CBS. We'll see... I'll let JimmyJoe do their evaluations and make the changes they're going to make. Then I'll do MY evaluation of THEIR evaluations and decide if I'm going to pony up the cash for tickets going forward.
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I'll let JimmyJoe do their evaluations and make the changes they're going to make. Then I'll do MY evaluation of THEIR evaluations and decide if I'm going to pony up the cash for tickets going forward.
I think that is the best way to go about it. Maybe a little too reasonable for a message board but indeed the best way to proceed.
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That will make the hillbillies happy.
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Calling them hillbillies, to me , is the same as using the N word if they were black. 
I wish you guys would stop.
Haslam is a billionaire, a self built one at that, and was a minority owner of the team that annually is a winner. He also was very quickly approved as an owner. You make him sound like Cooter from the dukes of hazzard 
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Calling them hillbillies, to me , is the same as using the N word if they were black.
I don't think they were shouted that as their wives were raped, beaten to death, tied to a tree, and all the other horrible things. You may be reaching a bit with that...
I still don't want any of the mentioned candidates. Keep Heckert and Shurmur.
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Honestly, I'd be ok with McDaniels. I am intrigued this time around by him.
I'm having a hard time getting past any professional NFL shot-caller who not only thought Tebow was a 1st round QB, but had the twisted mind to go ahead and pull the trigger on that idea.
That's the guy that intrigues you, eh? Call me cynical, but I think most any OC would come up with a winning game-plan with Tom Brady back there at QB. Afterall, when I hear that Banner seemingly prefer's that the head coach has final say over the roster, and considering McDaniels as the HC would have that power, then adding in that McDaniel's really thought Tebow was going to be the man...That gives me more heart palpatations than the thought of a semi-puppet GM in Dumbardi coming here...
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Honestly, I'd be ok with McDaniels. I am intrigued this time around by him.
I'm having a hard time getting past any professional NFL shot-caller who not only thought Tebow was a 1st round QB, but had the twisted mind to go ahead and pull the trigger on that idea.
That's the guy that intrigues you, eh? Call me cynical, but I think most any OC would come up with a winning game-plan with Tom Brady back there at QB. Afterall, when I hear that Banner seemingly prefer's that the head coach has final say over the roster, and considering McDaniels as the HC would have that power, then adding in that McDaniel's really thought Tebow was going to be the man...That gives me more heart palpatations than the thought of a semi-puppet GM in Dumbardi coming here...
Not sure which word applys scary or dis-heartning. Either would do but each has a level of Crap why us again.
Sometimes smart people crave a challenge. I think he saw Tebow...a guy who has so many pluses and thought be could adapt an offense to him. Tebow is a winner and is very good at everything except throwing a consistently accurate pass into a tight window.
But get him into a spread option situation that creates wide windows and dynamic speed at WR and that's a SuperBowl winning formula.
Look at what Washington and now San Fran are doing. It's here.
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Call me cynical, but I think most any OC would come up with a winning game-plan with Tom Brady back there at QB. Afterall, when I hear that Banner seemingly prefer's that the head coach has final say over the roster, and considering McDaniels as the HC would have that power, then adding in that McDaniel's really thought Tebow was going to be the man...That gives me more heart palpatations than the thought of a semi-puppet GM in Dumbardi coming here...
This^
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I just don't see why so many are on here recently proclaiming the end of their fandom.
Because it appears to be a massive step backward that it will take 5 years to recover from.
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That will make the hillbillies happy.
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Calling them hillbillies, to me , is the same as using the N word if they were black.
I wish you guys would stop.
Haslam is a billionaire, a self built one at that, and was a minority owner of the team that annually is a winner. He also was very quickly approved as an owner. You make him sound like Cooter from the dukes of hazzard
Nah, we're good with it. I once had a fellow at a business meeting derisively call me a "redneck". I smiled and corrected him by telling the proper term was hillbilly. The look on his face was priceless, you would have thought someone just walked over his grave. The term associated with blacks was a way of keeping them down. Hillbillies really don't need anyone to keep them down because nobody has much use for us anyway.
You know what will make this hillbilly happy? Seeing a front office that doesn't go off and shoot itself in the foot. Hiring Lombardi would pretty much be a shotgun blast to the toes. For now I'm content to watch the team finish out the season because they're really not that bad. I hate it when a football team turns into a bunch of crybabies at the end of a bad season.
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That will make the hillbillies happy.
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Calling them hillbillies, to me , is the same as using the N word if they were black.
I wish you guys would stop.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
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That will make the hillbillies happy.
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Calling them hillbillies, to me , is the same as using the N word if they were black.
I wish you guys would stop.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
If'n you were a little closer by I'd offer you a sip from the mason jar I just got delivered. That would cheer you right up.
I am a Hillbilly, term has never bothered me at all. The media has always tried to take the worst of the worst and say here is your typical hillbilly. For me Hillbilly has always defined the independence that America was founded upon.
People came into the Appalachian mountains to get away from taxes and government rules. Most were German, Scottish, Irish and British and they loved their alcohol and loved making it. That part of being a Hillbilly is true. It is funny the people that tried to get away from the government authority are some of the most patriotic people you can find anywhere.
I think most are the friendliest people you will meet. By far the most religious tolerant people in the world. Just dont want to tick them off, cause you learn to shoot at a young age and Hillbilly justice does exist.
Another Hillbilly /redneck here I got your back bro
As Lynyrd Skynyrd sang:
"My hair's turning white, my neck's always been red, my collar's still blue"!
RE: Mike Lombardi
Bill Simmons aired a podcast with Mike Lombardi this week. If you want to know why people are against him as our GM just listen.
I don't know if I know of a professional pundit that's out there more who I disagree with more often than this guy. It's like he's on the wrong side of the argument consistently.
Ugh.....
Please just say no to Lombardi.
http://www.grantland.com/podcasts
charley casserly is bad too.. lol.
I like Casserly, we agree on alot.
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While I understand what you're saying, I just don't see why you and so many other people are ready to quit be a fan or stop going to games over a front office decision.
I believe there's a huge difference in "quit being a fan" and "refusing to financialy support something you believe to be destined to failure".
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Need I remind you, the record under MH and TH is terrible. There's no guarantee this team even gets better next year if they were staying.
Guarantee? No, nothing really is accept the love of your mom is it? But we can look at probability which is all anyone can do on anything dealing with human beings.
We did better this year with a crop of rookies than we have done in quite some time. Is the probability that rookies will actually get worse or is the probability that they will grow and gain some continuity? I would say the second of the two scenarios is most likely.
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And even if the whole front office and coaching staff is new, that doesn't mean we'll be worse.....again, we have been "turrible" for quite a while.
IF the scenario being bantered about actually happens. The dynamic duo of "McDaniels/Lombradi".... Have you actually looked at their draft record? Let's see, Tim Tebow a first round pick? Even most of the posters on this board thought that was a joke! And Lombardi has a very long record of utter failure in that department.
Would you consider someone's track record and background as anything of substance when hiring someone for a job? I always have.....
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And one more thing, if a guy spends the kind of money JHaslam has spent, he should be allowed to hire or fire anyone he wants.
Just as we have the right to spend our money any way we want. Supporting people we have witnessed to have complete and utter failure only encourages further mistakes. Sending a message financialy will actually get someones attention. So Banner has the right to spend his money on what he feels is right, but we as fans are excluded from that same right?
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I'm along for the ride regardless. The Browns are my team and they'll always be. And really, it's just professional football.....about as meaningless as anything can be.
Then why bother responding to a subject that seems to mean so much to so many if it's so meaningless to you?
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I just don't see why so many are on here recently proclaiming the end of their fandom.
Some may be. Some have simply decided to stop their financial support if they see totally idiotic moves being made. They look at the long track record of failure by Lombardi and McDaniels utter stupidity in drafting Tebow in round 1 and see these choices as obvious mistakes.
So if this happens and a reasonable person looks at the evidence, believes it's the absolutely wrong thing to do, it's your assertion that they should just blindly support it no matter what?
Maybe that's the biggest difference between you and some other posters on the board. While the Browns aren't more important than my family, they are pretty much my recreation. I don't drink, I don't to Church, I don't gamble and I don't follow any other sport to near the degree I follow the Browns.
So to me, it's not "as meaningless as anything can be."
So if it's your choice to simply support something blindly without question like sheep being led to slaughter, that's your perrogative. But please don't act as though those who refuse to support obvious silliness based on hard evidence as having some type of issue.
It may just mean that some have a much more vested interest than someone who finds it "meaningless". It could be just that simple........
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I am a Hillbilly, term has never bothered me at all. The media has always tried to take the worst of the worst and say here is your typical hillbilly. For me Hillbilly has always defined the independence that America was founded upon.
I couldn't agree more. Hillbilly or redneck doesn't bother me. Besides, if we call each other that, we don't set some kind of double standard claiming anyone other than us aren't allowed to say it. We actually believe if we can say it, anybody can say it. Last time I checked, all Americans had free speech and if it's okay for one group of Americans to say it, all Americans can say it.
It's pretty much all or none with us.
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People came into the Appalachian mountains to get away from taxes and government rules. Most were German, Scottish, Irish and British and they loved their alcohol and loved making it. That part f being a Hillbilly is true. It is funny the people that tried to get away from the government authority are some of the most patriotic people you can find anywhere.
Actually most were Scotch/Irish. A combination that had been persecuted everywhere they had been cast. They were on the low social level in Ireland and basicly kicked out of Ireland into Scotland. Both the Irish and Scottish had treated them very badly so it was based on those experiences that they wished to basicly escape society and rule themselves.
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I think most are the friendliest people you will meet.
I'd have to agree with you there.
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By far the most religious tolerant people in the world.
I guess you've never met my Aunt Opal. She's very religious and is very tolerant of you if you are religious and think just like her. Otherwise her tolerance goes WAY down! I think if you look at all of the dry counties throughout the south, tollerance isn't always their strong suit. Just depends on the individual like anything else...
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Just dont want to tick them off, cause you learn to shoot at a young age and Hillbilly justice does exist.
That's cause we're so tolerant, right?
People are just different to a great extent no matter where they are from. My uncles in the mountains are very easy going and laid back. My two aunts on the other hand are very stern and judgemental. And one thing yankees need to be aware of.... Southern women can say terrible things about other women as long as they butter it up at the end and close with a "God Bless her heart".
ie...." Did you see that sleezy looking dress Edda wore to Church? She probably just doesn't know any better. God Bless her heart."
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I like Casserly, we agree on alot.
I tend to like Casserly too. I haven't kept track of his hits or misses but taking Mario Williams over Reggie Bush was a ballsy move. I think it cost him his job but it was clearly the right choice.
And I enjoy listening to him talk on NFL Network.
Toad:
I totally agree with you on McDaniels regarding Tebow. However, I am unclear about how all that went down in Denver. Did McDaniels have final say on the draft?
Basically was it his decision or someone else and he had to coach the guy?
In any event McDaniels no matter how I look at him I get question marks?
I remember the whole Brandon Marshall thing. The appearance from outside looking in was a young coach who did not have a commanding presence and was unable to control a team of grown men.
McDaniels sideline antics make him appear to be a spoiled brat. I know that has nothing to do with whether he has what it takes as far as coaching goes but leadership qualities are often reflected in mannerisms.
On the other hand I respect Belichick. If you don't have the chops you will not remain as part of his staff.
Hopefully Haslam and Banner will find the right guy. Given what they have stated regarding continuity. Once they hire the next guy he will more than likely be the head coach for long time.
Doubtful about Saban or Sean Peyton. Have a hard time seeing them leave where they are.
Chip Kelly is getting plenty of press. Not sure about him. Banner in hiring Reid went to a guy who at the time was not considered a leading candidate for a HC job.
I am sure after reading at length all about Banner that he is a very detailed and thorough guy. He is going to bring in a head coach and a quarterback to compete with Weeden. He wants that combination to be along the lines of Brees and Peyton or Belichick and Brady. Intellectual equals that will work well together.
Maybe it will be Kyle Shanahan and Kirk Cousins.
McDaniels' legacy attached to Tim Tebow ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Forget Jay Cutler.
Josh McDaniels’ legacy in Denver -- and probably as an NFL head coach -- will rest on the boldest in a series of brash moves he has made since becoming the Broncos' coach 15 months ago.
On the day he turned 34, McDaniels rocked the NFL world by wheeling and dealing all night in a cascade of moves that culminated in taking Florida quarterback Tim Tebow with the 25th pick.
The story of the 2010 draft is in Denver.
NFL Draft 2010 Coverage
• Sando: Much riding on Bradford
• Seifert: Lions right to pick Suh
• Williamson: McDaniels' legacy is Tebow
• Yasinskas: McCoy big building block
• Graham: Spiller could pay off for Bills
• Walker: Browns fail to make splash
• Kuharsky: Jags may be right on Alualu
• Mosley: Cowboys happy with Bryant
• Clayton: Round 1 winners and losers
• Pasquarelli: Wait worth it for Tebow
• Wojciechowski: Bradford's journey
• NFL Nation Live: Draft discussion
• NFL Draft 2010 section
No player in recent memory has been as polarizing as Tebow. Some NFL scouts think the former Heisman Trophy winner has the right stuff to go with his Disney-esque will and character to become a standout NFL quarterback. Others in the league don’t think he has the right mechanical makeup to succeed, especially after an amateurish performance at the Senior Bowl. Others think he could be a solid H-back. Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said he couldn't get him on the field.
McDaniels?
Well, he has staked his career on Tebow, and traded three picks to draft him.
“He has all the traits you look for,” McDaniels said. “It’s a good pick.”
If Tebow becomes a standout quarterback under McDaniels’ tutelage, both will have long, wonderful careers in Denver. If Tebow fails to become mechanically sound and an acceptable NFL passer, he’ll begin his missionary life earlier than he had hoped and McDaniels will be the guy who was run out of Denver after making one too many risky moves.
Think McDaniels cares? Think again.
Remember, this is the guy who traded Cutler, a Pro Bowl quarterback, after a five-week spat. McDaniels shipped Cutler out of town without worrying about what people thought. He kicked Brandon Marshall out of town this month without worrying that his receiving group is a mess. Ironically, one of the picks acquired from Miami in the Marshall trade was part of the Tebow deal.
Now, he takes Tebow several picks higher than many people think he was worth. Tebow was the call despite Denver having glaring needs at other spots.
Again, McDaniels does it his own way.
He saw something in Tebow. He thinks he can win with him. He took Tebow over Notre Dame’s Jimmy Clausen. Clausen was likely higher than Tebow on at least 25 NFL boards. That doesn’t matter to McDaniels, who gushed about Tebow in his pre-draft press conference and who personally worked him out Monday.
Whether you question McDaniels’ methods or not, his ability to coach quarterbacks can’t be denied. Tom Brady broke records under his guidance. Matt Cassel owes a nice portion of his $40 million deal in Kansas City to McDaniels. Cassel went from a guy who hadn’t started since high school to starring under McDaniels in New England when Brady got hurt in 2008.
Journeyman Kyle Orton was solid under McDaniels last year. One of the reasons McDaniels was selected to replace Mike Shanahan at the age of 32 is because he convinced Denver owner Pat Bowen that he is a quarterback guru.
Tebow is his greatest project.
Don’t expect Tebow to start as a rookie although McDaniels said he will play when he’s ready. McDaniels also indicated there could be some packages made for Tebow right away and indicated he could play initially in a Wildcat (Wild Horse in Denver) formation.
Tebow is now McDaniels’ pet project. He is the guy he has been looking for since he came to Denver.
Tebow will be given the full attention of McDaniels beginning at next weekend’s rookie minicamp. Brady Quinn and Tom Brandstater? Thanks for coming.
This is Tebow’s show.
“We need players at that position to be very good players,” McDaniels said. “If we have the chance to make him special, that’s what we’re looking for.”
McDaniels got his man. Now, let’s see what he does with him.
Maybe we're looking at this McDaniels/Tebow thing wrong. McD made Tebow a playoff QB. Read that again, TEBOW a playoff QB.
If McD can turn that no armed hack into a playoff QB then maybe he's a genious. Just think what he could do with Weeden, or Colt, or any other walk on tryout player for that matter.
Look at other picks in that draft: Demaryius Thomas, Zane Beadles, J.D. Walton, and Eric Decker. All of those guys are starters for the Broncos right now (Walton is currently on injured reserve). Pretty good besides Tebow.
(Heckert just took a 29 year old QB in the first round by the way. I love Heckert, but when he goes to a different team I'm sure some of their fans will be worried about that pick.)
He can just blame Holmgren for Weeden wherever he goes . . . WAIT, no, he's not leaving. He's not leaving. He's not leaving. Say it with me . . .
I think that ship has sailed.
I'm a little unclear here. Tebow went to the playoffs last year with John Fox
Oops. My bad you're right. Fox turned Tebow into a playoff QB. That guy's a genious.
McD... Not so much.
OK then, case closed.
I suspected as much but I don't follow Denver. Sure didn't make Elway twitch even after they went to the playoffs and beat the Steelers. Timmy was sent packing.
Hopefully Banner and Haslam will not go the McDaniels road.
I have a feeling the new guy will be a surprise. You got any ideas or preference?
Banner might be a blind mole with a personality to match, but he's a master at not tipping his hand or letting public opinion influence him. I don't have any idea of who he might be looking at, or what system he might use.
I just know that the guy who thought Tebow was a 1st round pick at QB is a name I want nothing to do with as the guy who would potentially hold the final authority over the roster.
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OK then, case closed.
I suspected as much but I don't follow Denver. Sure didn't make Elway twitch even after they went to the playoffs and beat the Steelers. Timmy was sent packing.
Hopefully Banner and Haslam will not go the McDaniels road.
I have a feeling the new guy will be a surprise. You got any ideas or preference?
Everyone remembers Tebow beating the Steelers, but everyone forgets the absolute drubbing he got the next week in New England. Both Elway and Fox knew Tebow had taken them as far as he could. I applaud them for going out and getting better. Right now I think they have to be the odds on favorite to make the Super Bowl out of the AFC.
As far as my preference for a coach, I said in a different topic that I would probably favor David Shaw. I like Saban, I like Chip Kelly, but some of these current coordinators who will be hired as coaches just don't do anything for me.
I think you can hire Shaw but still keep some power. If you hire Saban, and probably Kelly, both guys will take most of the power.
I just don't understand how Jimmy can spend all that time in Pittsburgh only to do the complete opposite and give away power.
David Shaw just signed an extension with Stanford.
Link
I am watching Seattle and what a great young team they are. Carol did an excellent job drafting and adding quality FAs to fill the holes. That team should be good for a few years. Oh btw they had the same level of crappy talent we had when Pete took over.....at the same time H/H did.
There is no exercise for this team to be this bad three years after they began "rebuilding" the roster. I'll say it again I'm not saying I want Heckert gone, but I can understand if JJ decides to cans him. You simply don't get three years of being this bad anymore, and you have to be able to find quality FAs to fill holes......H/H couldn't do that (see Young).
Biggest difference between the 2 teams this year is that they found a rookie QB who could come in and produce at a high level and we didn't.
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Biggest difference between the 2 teams this year is that they found a rookie QB who could come in and produce at a high level and we didn't.
And they tailored their offenses to help the rookie QB perform at a high level.
........and Carol has built a dominate defense......and he signed an elite RB......and he signed/drafted quality WRs.......and he built a well rounded OL.
Sorry as much as I have bagged on Weeden he isn't the difference between them and us....talent overall is.
Their defensive backfield is better than ours (theirs is one of the best in the NFL). We have a pretty good Rb that we don't utilize, Oline, Wr, Dline and Lb's are equivalent.
Their rookie QB is performing at a high level and ours is not. I agree with YTown that a lot of that is their coaching staff structuring an offense to exploit the QB's strengths.
The other deference is the defensive philosophy on whole. We are a sit back read and react defense whereas they are an attacking in your face I am going to score defense. Again this is a coaching philosophy difference.
So 3 coaching philosophy differences - Qb, Rb, def. With the only real talent difference being with the defensive backfield
Great post. People just don't get it ...talent level overall is very similar amongst most NFL teams.
The difference is QB, coach, culture, and attitude. Thats it folks.
It sounds like Haslam is going to be the guy to fix the culture and attitude.
Let's hope he picks the right coach and QB.
I don't think its unfair to say that the experience Seattle has at the offensive skill positions (outside of QB) gives them a decided advantage when compared to ours. The talent level may be similar, but the level of experience is night and day. Outside of Ben Watson, we're marching out a bunch of rookies and first-year players.
You wann compare S.Rice to Gordon? or Lynch to TRich? lol
As good as Gordon's rook year has been, he's not an above AVG no1 yet, he has that ceiling, sure, but the route he took yesterday in the game near the GL was a good example that he's still extremely raw and still has to learn HOW to run routes and read coverages before we hail him king. If we had a Wayne or S.Rice running that route, that would have been an easy TD, as Weeden was throwing to the open spot in coverage but Gordon never read and adjusted to it and he had a bad game overall, Champ Bailey owned him all day
Can we please go back to the expectations thread BEFORE the season? Weeden had an all rook team to work with (4 rook starters at VERY important positions) and pretty much everyone on here said we'd gonna win 5 games max. Everybody laughed when Vegas put our O/U at 5.5 season wins, but they were spot on and considering HOW those W/L played out overall this season was a SUCCESS, but somehow those expectations took a leap for some during the season because the young talent "flashed"....it still takes time and experience for puppies to grow into dogs, you know?
The fickleness of this board is ashaming, yeah let's throw away our 1st round QB after 14.5 games, draft another one high, watch him see struggle through the same and call for his head in 12 months because he doesn't have a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and 7.5-8yds/PA and he makes "stupid mistakes" every now and then
Let's fire all our coaches that taught those same young guys HOW to be Pros in this league and kept the team together and fighting hard despite a rough and heartbreaking 0-5 start to the season. Hand them a new playbook, let them learn new terminology....I'm sure THAT will make them better
That's the kind of Xmas present every angry Brownsfan wants at this time of the year. Who doesn't see that this roster and team is different from past's, I guess I can't force them to, but I know what I see and that's a team and roster worth keeping together another season and work under the same systems (and most coaches) for another year. We're 5-5 in our last 10 and have a chance to sweep the Steelers for the 1st time in a long time
Merry Christmas to all Brownsfans
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I don't think its unfair to say that the experience Seattle has at the offensive skill positions (outside of QB) gives them a decided advantage when compared to ours. The talent level may be similar, but the level of experience is night and day. Outside of Ben Watson, we're marching out a bunch of rookies and first-year players.
I don't disagree about the experience thing, but the comment was about talent and not experience. Even talent needs time to mature. I understand that. I just really despise the "no talent" comment. It's an easy out to explain losses. It may have applied to many Browns teams since '99, but it doesn't apply to this one.
Dj, you are one of a few people on here who I count on to be objective and to learn from. You're starting to get with Weeden like Toad is with Richardson. You are becoming Toad.
For starters, when I wrote my comment about Haslam finding the right QB and coach, I wasn't automatically dismissing Weeden. You don't need to get your panties in a wad. My assumption is Weeden will be in the mix, but a decision WILL BE made on him. He's not a sure automatic. If Haslam and Banner think Weeden is the guy, then I hope they are right. I won't be heartbroken going into next year with Weeden. I'd like to see what we can do with a coach who plays to his players strengths and doesn't force a system on them.
As to the rest of your post, calm down buddy. It's the holidays.
You're 100% right. The talent level between NFL teams is close.
Sure teams have different talent levels, but it's not a wide gap as people like to think.
The difference comes from QB play and coaching.
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If Haslam and Banner think Weeden is the guy, then I hope they are right.
This is what makes me most uneasy about the direction the team seems to be taking; non-football guys - guys who don't know any more about player evaluation that some of the posters here - making football decisions.
How do you know who is going to be making the football decisions?
This doom and gloom, when we don't know anything yet is irritating.
First of all, I was responding to what Rish said about Haslam and Banner deciding on Weeden. Second, did you not hear Banner say he would have final say on personnel moves? I don't know that this will be the case, but it seems to be the direction. Haslam has a billion legitimate reasons to want to be involved, but ideally, there would be a qualified personnel guy making decisions on talent.
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Second, did you not hear Banner say he would have final say on personnel moves?
What I heard Banner say is that he favors the head coach having final say on personnel moves, but that could change depending on who is hired for what position.
I recall some people spreading doom-and-gloom over Banner being hired as Team President because of his lack of experience in that role...only to see Banner hire Sheiner as Team President.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I do know there's a ton of fear right now driving thoughts and decisions that aren't based on any facts whatsoever.
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Can we please go back to the expectations thread BEFORE the season? Weeden had an all rook team to work with (4 rook starters at VERY important positions) and pretty much everyone on here said we'd gonna win 5 games max. Everybody laughed when Vegas put our O/U at 5.5 season wins, but they were spot on and considering HOW those W/L played out overall this season was a SUCCESS, but somehow those expectations took a leap for some during the season because the young talent "flashed"....it still takes time and experience for puppies to grow into dogs, you know?
Sure, it's in the archive forum. But you're taking one single thing mentioned, Wins and Losses, and forgetting that thread has more than just W's an L's.
I do believe Weeden will get a reprieve simply do to the fact there is no Luck or RG3 in this draft and any high draft pick at the QB position wouldn't be any less of a gamble than moving forward with Weeden.
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The fickleness of this board is ashaming, yeah let's throw away our 1st round QB after 14.5 games, draft another one high, watch him see struggle through the same and call for his head in 12 months because he doesn't have a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and 7.5-8yds/PA and he makes "stupid mistakes" every now and then
Sometimes I agree with you about that. Like Toading saying "We don't have anything to base fear on". Yet Banner has a long history of not being willing to pay for high priced FA's or re-sign players to big contracts. He has that old school mentality in that department and you can look at Seattle and see just how critical their development was when adding key, experienced FA's. Of course you don't build a team with FA's but if you expect to win, you certainly plug in some good ones here and there to compete and win until you can fill those positions via the draft. But let's ignore all of his history and pretend it doesn't exist.
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Let's fire all our coaches that taught those same young guys HOW to be Pros in this league and kept the team together and fighting hard despite a rough and heartbreaking 0-5 start to the season. Hand them a new playbook, let them learn new terminology....I'm sure THAT will make them better
Most every time a new owner or FO takes over a team, there are wholesale changes. I'm not predicting that will happen, but the odds heavily favor that it will. It's simply the nature of the beast. I don't really have a horse in the race here as to who I would favor as a new HC, but let me pose this to you.
You just spendt 1 billion plus dollars on an NFL franchise. Now without giving excuses as to the youth he has to work with and just looking at Shurmer alone........... Based solely on game day coaching, playcalling and half time adjustments, tell us and show us the improvements Shurmer has made over his two seasons as HC here?
When you are an employer with a huge investment, you weigh out your decisions on your employees based on the pluses and minuses. I don't doubt that the youth he has had to work with will be one factor that has to be taken into consideration, but I feel Haslam will be looking for some signs of vast improvement over the course of Shurmers two years as HC, abilities as a leader and his development as a HC.
What are the things you can give us on the plus side in his progress over these two years as a HC? While I'm not one who would be kicking and screaming if they kept Shurmer, considering the fact I simply don't think this HC has really developed much, if at all on game day, I wouldn't be opposed to Haslam making a "positive change" there.
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That's the kind of Xmas present every angry Brownsfan wants at this time of the year. Who doesn't see that this roster and team is different from past's, I guess I can't force them to, but I know what I see and that's a team and roster worth keeping together another season and work under the same systems (and most coaches) for another year.
As far as the raw talent we have at WR and RB along with a fairly strong D overall, I agree that wholesale changes aren't really something we need to see when it comes to the roster. However, if you really buy into the hype that our G's ca run block, well, I feel for you in that department. We do however have enough needs and weaknesses that I could logicly see some turnover and a need for key changes.
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We're 5-5 in our last 10 and have a chance to sweep the Steelers for the 1st time in a long time
If you look at the Steelers, even last week against the Bengals, they are not the power house they were and most certainly not the offensive dynamo of years past. That's just a fact. Would I revel in the fact we swept the Steelers? Of course I would! But I would also do it with the understanding that we did not beat the Steelers of old, we beat the Steelers who are simply getting old and not producing to the level of years past.
We have gotten to the point we can beat some of the cellar dwellers, but usually in very close games and when we did beat the Steelers with their 3rd string QB. Let's be realistic here. They squeeked by KC in week 10 by 3 points and have been 1-5 since then. Considering the facts of the matter, not only do we have a shot of sweeping the Steelers, we SHOULD sweep the Steelers! Don't you think?
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Merry Christmas to all Brownsfans
I hope you have a Merry Christmas too. Oh and BTW- when you look at that prediction thread, look at how many people also mentioned the main thing most of us were looking for during the season was a "marked and gradual improvement" and tell us how that fits into what you're saying here. Because when you have such a young team, that's what you really expect to see. Not so much W's and L's.
I predicted 5 wins. But I predicted by the end of the season this team would be very much improved. And just because we squeeked by a few cellar dwellers late in the season and throttled KC with the great Brady Quinn at the helm, I don't really see that huge improvement over the course of the season I expected. Consistancy....
I do believe in continuity if I see growth. I am also a firm believer that if it is broke, fix it. If it's broke and you don't fix it, all you end up doing in creating redundancy in failure and calling it continuity.....
There is a stark contrast in the two.
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I am watching Seattle and what a great young team they are. Carol did an excellent job drafting and adding quality FAs to fill the holes. That team should be good for a few years.
Comparing the two teams this season...the biggest difference...the Browns have had a huge cloud of uncertainty hanging over the team, since Haslam bought controlling interest from Lerner.
Everyone in the organization knew they were working/playing for a team and owner who was likely going to rip the team apart with changes in the front office, coaching staff and down to the players themselves.
...from Aug 2nd forward, no one working for the Browns could be certain that they would be with the Browns after the 2012 season.
After Lerner and Haslam finalized the deal, Holmgren and Heckert made it clear they wanted to finished the 5yr rebuilding program that he and Heckert started in 2010.
But shortly after the NFL approved the sale of the Browns, Haslam announced that Holmgren was fired effective after the season and Banner would be taking over as President of the Browns and the football side of the team would be reporting to Banner.
Banner had a history that he himself created by his actions in his 19 yrs with Eagles and Banner "had never" been in charge of the football side of the Eagles while there. That move by Haslam was a head scratcher for many with knowledge of Banner's past but it also created a level of uncertainty for Browns that no other team in the NFL faced in 2012.
The Seattle Seahawks have not faced any of the negatives that come with this level of "change".
The 2012 season should have been a year of "positive, stable" development and progress for this very young, inexperienced Browns team. But the 2012 season turned into a year uncertainty, especially for the coaches and players.
Since 1999, the Browns franchise has been nothing more than "a toy" that rich billionaires play with for a while, never finishing anything they start.
Many believe change is good...but they are wrong !
No franchise can be successful with the level of change that the expansion Browns have faced since 1999.
In early August, Jimmy Haslam said he had identified "change" as one of the major reasons for the Browns lack of success since 1999. Haslam had done the math and found that the Browns change head coaches ever 2.8 yrs.
But, as we Browns fans know, it's not just the head coaching changes that have doomed the Browns. I did my own research and found that the Browns change GMs and President/CEO about as often as we change HCs. The changes in these leadership positions lead to front office changes, scouting dept changes, personnel changes, offensive and defensive coaching changes.
While Haslam was critical of those owners before him, he too is going step in and do exactly what previous owners have done...usher in a new round of changes for our Browns...kind of ironic...pot meet kettle.
Haslam said the one thing he learned in his three years as a minority owner with the Steelers is the importance of consistency in coaching, and how much it sets you back when you're always making a changes.
Haslam went on to say when a team changes coaches, it can be a three- or four-year deal to get back.
I seriously doubt that Browns fans are going to be patient for another 3 or 4 years.
Serious question, Mac: if you were Haslam would you keep Shurmur?
We have a team full of rookies making rookie mistakes and whenever it occurs, Shurmur takes the blame. If I am Haslam, I make no changes for 2013 and I allow Shurmur to finish his contract which was for 3 years.
Players wanting to bitch about playcalling is no reason to fire a head coach. Players have always bitched and moaned about playcalling and they always will.
My only fault with Shurmur is that he has allowed Cribbs and others to take shots in the press. He is a players coach and he has let it slide well not starting Richardson might have been a bit of a message to the team but I would not activate anyone running their mouth in the press and probably suspend them for a game.
You change coaches if the team lacks discipline, doesnt give effort, is no longer competitive, doesnt show improvement, if the coach is making really dumb mistakes.
This team is disciplined and they give great effort every week. WE have been competitive in all but one or two games. We have made consistent improvement. Shurmur not calling timeout in game 1 last year and punting in Indy are the only really dumb decisions to point out in 2 years.
Shurmur took over a Horrible offensive line, horrible QB play, no run game, worst receivers in the league, the defense was just as bad in that we couldnt stop the run and our secondary was a disaster.
Right now we have a top 3 pass blocking OL and at worst mid level run blocking. Gordon Little combo looks like something great for years to come and to not give these coaches credit for turning these kids around is just crazy. Run game will come. Weeden has had his ups and downs but we have seen improvement. Defense is almost there and I mean really, really close.
These kids improved because of this staff not in spite of them. We wanted improvement and we got it. It may not be fast enough for some but the foundation is laid. The team concept has been established and folks the attitude of this team needed as much of an overhaul as the talent.
Romeo's first year team went 7 and 9 and it was a 1 win caliber team. Bad players bad coaching but they got some lucky bounces. It was fools gold and few wanted to see it.
This team feels more like a wildcard caliber team. No we aint good enough to beat a Denver team hitting on all cylinders but I think we can hold our own against 3/4 of the league. Eliminate 2 or 3 rookie mistakes per game and we are fighting with the Bengals for a Wildcard spot this year. Not coaching mistakes just the rookie mistakes.
Giving this staff one more year is not only the smart thing but it is the right thing.
History shows that just because someone wins a few games towards the end of a season (Mangini) that doesn't mean you should give them another year.
I think barring something outrageous, Shurmurs fate has been sealed since he punted in Indy.
5-11 is far from outrageous. Even if they did start 0-5.
We have talent here. Bring in the right guys and it shouldn't take 4 years to be competitive.
OK ... here's a theory I haven't seen floated before .......
Childress or Jauron could replace Shurmur - Canton, OH - CantonRep.com
http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x6562098...OBR+Newswire%29Three wise men? Three nice guys? Three blind mice?
Three key men on the bubble seem not to know exactly how Jimmy Haslam and his generals view them as the Browns’ season heads into the dark void.
Nearly everyone outside their bubble assumes at least Pat Shurmur will be gone, and that coordinators Brad Childress and Dick Jauron will be at the mercy of the next head coach, if they don’t choose to leave on their own.
The gravity of the situation was reflected in Childress’ response to how rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden’s season went.
“Just like the season, some good, some bad,” he said. “I wish I could tell you it ended on a real, real high note. I sure wouldn’t characterize what happened in our last game as a real high note ... for any of us.”
NFL life can be funny for men like Childress, in nonhumorous ways. In January of 2010, he was one play from being the head coach of the Minnesota Vikings in a Super Bowl against Peyton Manning’s Colts. As 2012 melts away, he is offensive coordinator on a team that fell to 5-10 with a blowout loss to Manning’s Broncos.
“We don’t even spend time worrying about it,” Childress said. “What’ll end up happening will end up happening.”
Dick Jauron could never quite get over the hump as head coach in Buffalo. His Bills were 7-9 in 2006, 7-9 in 2007 and 7-9 in 2008. Now he is defensive coordinator of a Browns team that must win at Pittsburgh to be 6-10.
“I wouldn’t say I don’t worry about the future,” Jauron said, “but my mom used to talk about worrying a great deal, and she always taught me that the worrying was not worth the effort.”
There is a wild-card possibility not talked about much, if only because it seems like such a long-shot. It’s not a long-shot if owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner see it as viable.
That would be dismissing Shurmur as an acknowledgment that his 9-22 record begs a response, but promoting either Childress or Jauron to the head coaching job based on a conclusion that a good foundation has been laid and requires continuity.
Childress, 56, might be less a long-shot because of his age and his flirtation with a Super Bowl as a head coach. He is two years older than Marvin Lewis, who has the Bengals in the postseason for the third time in four years.
As head coach of the Vikings, Childress was 6-10 in 2006, 8-8 in 2007, 10-6 in 2008 and 12-4 in 2009. He was fired 10 games into the 2010 season.
Jauron, 62, posted records of 6-10, 5-11, 13-3, 4-12 and 7-9 as head coach of the Bears from 1999-2003. He was 24-33 as head coach of the Bills when he was dismissed nine games into the 2009 season.
Nothing either Childress or Jauron has said has hinted even remotely that they thirst for Shurmur to be out of their way. Yet, one of them staying as head coach might be the only way either of them does.
“If things are able to stay static,” Childress said, “I think we can make a huge jump next year.”
But ...
“We’re in such an immediate-gratification world,” Childress said. “It’s hard to preach patience.
“It ends up being the owner’s choice ... how he wants to do things. He certainly has that prerogative.”
Jauron said “the good news” for the Browns’ defense is that it has a deep young roster of good players, which “should bode well for the future.”
“The bad news,” Jauron said, “is that there weren’t nearly as many wins as we would have liked.”
The defense has been better than the offense in Shurmur’s two years as head coach.
This year’s offense is ranked 27th in yards and 23rd in points. The defense is ranked 24th in yards allowed and 19th in points allowed.
There are long stories behind all of the numbers, but it boils down to Shurmur’s time being short to the extreme of the Pittsburgh game being his last.
Shurmur has made it clear he thinks he has advanced the team reasonably well in trying circumstances. Just as clearly, he understands he might be looking for work very soon.
“We came into a less than ideal situation,” he said. “I’m proud of the work the guys I hired did.
“We have not won enough football games, and I know that’s the way this thing works. But in our situation I see improvement.
“The rest of that is a discussion for after we play Pittsburgh.”
However this shakes out, it will be a lively discussion.
Childress had better success as a coach than people like to give him credit for. Not saying he's great, but his QB's were not anything special.
2006 : 6-10 w/ Brad Johnson/Tavaris Jackson
2007 : 8-8 w/ Tavaris Jackson/Brooks Bollinger/Kelly Holcomb
2008 : 10-6 w/ Gus Fereotte
2009 : 12-4 w/ Brett Favre
2010 : 3-7 before getting fired w/ Brett Favre
Given what he had to work with at the Quarterback position, it's not a TERRIBLE resume.
For the record, I can't see this even being a possibility. But I think the board, in general, would love the move it it happened.
It keeps the same group together, but gets rid of Shurmur and his terrible game day decisions.
Won't happen, but I can't say I'm against the idea.
I would guess that Childress could, at the very least, get an interview if Shurmur is dumped.
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I would guess that Childress could, at the very least, get an interview if Shurmur is dumped.
I agree with you there. I think they have to look at the people in the building first before going to outside people. As long as no one named Ryan gets an interview I guess I would be happy. 
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Childress had better success as a coach than people like to give him credit for. Not saying he's great, but his QB's were not anything special.
Didnt he have a pretty good running back?
In 2006, his running back was Chester Taylor.
2007, a rookie Adrian Peterson and won 8 games.
2008, won 10 games
2009, won 12 games.
I'm not saying he's great, but if you look at his 6 win teams roster, you'd be amazed.
It makes this roster look like a Pro-Bowl roster.
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In 2006, his running back was Chester Taylor.
2007, a rookie Adrian Peterson and won 8 games.
2008, won 10 games
2009, won 12 games.
Humm almost like............Never mind.
The article got me a llittle curious. I might be onboard with Childress depending on who the O-coordinator would be. But I also thought about who might fit the mold of what Banner looked for when he was a part of the Andy Reid hiring and also a guy who might not totally blow everything up.So looking at different teams that are having success this year I noticed Seattles OC Darrell Bevell who was also an OC under Childress. I know almost nothing about him but he would seem to be a guy that fit the mold ( at least age and experience wise) of what they looked for when Reid was hired. I am not saying I want this guy, just throwing it out there.
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Cleveland -- When Browns new owner Jimmy Haslam arrived this season and essentially replaced Mike Holmgren with former Eagles president Joe Banner as team CEO, the countdown to further change began in Cleveland. Next week, both head coach Pat Shurmur and general manager Tom Heckert are expected to depart, and there has been plenty of early speculation about their successors.
For weeks, the reported leading candidate for the Browns GM job has been Mike Lombardi, the former Raiders personnel executive and current NFL Network analyst. Lombardi was hired by Banner as a personnel consultant in Philadelphia in 1997, and once worked for the Browns personnel department in the team's Bill Belichick era in the early '90s.
League sources say Lombardi is definitely on Cleveland's short list, but may not be the lock for the position that some are assuming. The other half of the Lombardi candidacy could be tied to Josh McDaniels, the current Patriots offensive coordinator who is seen as a potential package deal with Lombardi, with Cleveland giving him a second shot at head coach after his failed tenure of less than two years in Denver (2009-2010).
McDaniels is an Ohio native and is said to be eager to erase the blemish of his Broncos firing. But he's also wary of choosing poorly in his second NFL head coaching opportunity, and is hesitant to go anywhere if he doesn't think he has a quarterback he can win with and build around. It is not thought McDaniels has had sufficient time yet to study Browns rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden's game, and if New England makes a deep playoff run, his availability might not jive with Cleveland's timetable.
There's also a chance New England gets proactive in an attempt to keep McDaniels around as an eventual replacement for head coach Bill Belichick, a move the Kraft family could dangle as enticement to stay put. Some sources say McDaniels' interest in the Browns has been overstated in the media, because he feels he already has the best assistant coaching job in the NFL, working with Tom Brady and Belichick, and knows continued success will bring other head coaching opportunities.
Beside McDaniels, the remaining buzz on the big-name head coaching front centers on Haslam trying to lure Alabama's Nick Saban to town. Saban, a former Browns assistant under Belichick, is not thought likely to leave the college game this year, but history tells us he can't be completely ruled out. Like McDaniels, Saban has made it clear to those close to him that he won't go to a team unless he's convinced he has a winning quarterback, and it's not known if he considers Weeden to be a proven commodity at this point of his career.
Lombardi and Saban worked together in Cleveland, but some within the NFL are skeptical that a front office structure that includes Banner, Lombardi and Saban could lead to coexistence and cooperation in terms of final personnel say. The same could be true if McDaniels is the Browns' choice as coach, with one executive from a competing NFL club saying: "That's a lot of headstrong people in one front office, with Banner, Lombardi and McDaniels working together. I'm not sure why he'd jump at a situation with a convoluted structure like that."
If there's another GM candidate to keep track of in Cleveland's search it's David Caldwell, the current Atlanta Falcons director of player personnel. Caldwell has a college scouting background with a strong track record in the draft, and he's seen as one of the most knowledgeable and experienced prospects in the GM-to-be ranks.
SI.com
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Didnt he have a pretty good running back?
Kind of an odd thing to say around here isn't it?
People claim you can't be a winner without a great QB. Yet now, someone tries to question someone who won 10 games without a great QB because they had a great RB?
Oh the irony.........
Caldwell would certainly help soften the blow if Heckert is sent packing. He uses a nice balance of the draft and FA's to improve things.
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Didnt he have a pretty good running back?
Kind of an odd thing to say around here isn't it?
People claim you can't be a winner without a great QB. Yet now, someone tries to question someone who won 10 games without a great QB because they had a great RB?
Oh the irony.........
No offense, but please answer me this .....
How many Super Bowls has Adrian Peterson won?
Played in?
Playoff games won?
How many playoff games has Peterson even played in during his 6 season career?
Who was the QB during the Peterson's best year record-wise?
That's not really the point. The point is, the Vikings FO has had years now to put a real QB with Peterson.
People have also said you can't even be a playoff team or win our division without a great QB.
Well 10-6 would put us in the playoffs. We truely would be only a player or two away from being in a SB.
Can you honestly say that having a HC that could take this team to 10-6 without a good QB wouldn't be a major move in the right direction? He only had one real offensive weapon and led his team to 10-6.
Realisticly speaking I can't think of ANY NFL HC that can take a team to the SB and win these days with one offensive weapon.
As a matter of fact, if there are any HC's in the NFL that can lead their team to a 10-6 record with only one real offensive weapon, that's a very short list.
That's what cracks me up around here. Who else do you think we could get as a HC that has shown they can do so much with so little on their resume'?
How can anyone even trust these 2 clowns if they even consider the likes of Lombardi, McDaniels and Saban...
at least it would be fun again, as all of them are as power hungry as Jimmy and Joe seem to be. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, doesn't it?
I'd trust a collection of draft nerds on this board more than those bums on draft weekend. McDaniels wasted 4 Top 50 picks and a high 3rd rounder combined on Tebow and CB Alphonso Smith
not even Madden lets you do dumb stuff like this...and Lombardi? Well, did he ever draft a player worth a damn at any time? Combine those clowns with an over-anxious owner who thinks he knows more about football than he does and a capologist that finally gets to pretend to be a football guy and pick players too and who is on record saying that sometimes an outside "gut shot" view on draft day is a good thing and that he watches some highlight vids of 3rd day picks that scouts recommend to form an opinion...who isn't excited by this collective of competency?
I see what you're sayin' DJ but I've seen at least one or two that somehow think at least Banner is great and seems excited!
But of course that will be spun away at some later date.
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and Lombardi? Well, did he ever draft a player worth a damn at any time?
Um, yeah. He took a kicker 17th overall.
You know, given enough time I could probably talk myself into any new coach, but Lombardi to me is the absolute worst case scenario. He's been fired 5 times, is mocked by real-live NFL front office types, and isn't even the best talent evaluator at NFL Network.
I live in the Lions market, so I got toe see Matt Millen at his finest. I don't need to see the same level of work from MIke Lombardi with the Browns.
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How can anyone even trust these 2 clowns if they even consider the likes of Lombardi, McDaniels and Saban...
Please tell me your thought process of putting Saban in the same category as McDaniels and Lombardi.
J/K
I hope for god sake they do this quickly and please dont drag this circus around town for 2-3 weeks or longer, So much Drama alomst seems like my 13 year old daughter is running the media side of this team....If a head coach isnt going to come after the Super Bowl..Say it, We've been thru that move before, we all know how it works...man just be upfront and honest, Im sure there are some things you cant let out but please once the seasons over lets move on and right this ship....So tired of the lip service
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How can anyone even trust these 2 clowns if they even consider the likes of Lombardi, McDaniels and Saban...
Please tell me your thought process of putting Saban in the same category as McDaniels and Lombardi.
I think Saban gets a bad rap for what happened on Miami.
He was seriously a Doctors note from signing Drew Brees (I don't believe ALL of the Katrina stories sucking Drew in, Miami could've offered him whatever he wanted) and its not like he had a horrible record over the two years there.
I just ink he figured out it wasn't going to work and got a (better) job at Alabama. Where he basically gets the cream of the crop. Part of the reason I never thought he'd leave.
If you brig in Saban. The GM position is nothing more than a nameplate. Find the best scouting guy that wants a bump in pay and have him find players for Saban.
In Drew Brees book, he mentions that he preferred Miami over New Orleans, and that the phone call with Saban was basically one of, "I wish I could sign you, but the doctors won't let me." and that's when he decided New Orleans was the only option for him.
From Drew Brees' book....
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So Brees picked up the phone and called Saban, who told him the Miami team doctors believed Brees had a 25 percent chance to come back and be the same quarterback, or better, that he’d been before the shoulder surgery.
According to the book, Brees said to Saban: “Coach, I know what your doctors believe about me. My question is, what do you believe?”
Wrote Brees: “Nick Saban paused. That was really all I needed to hear. His pause told me everything. ‘Well, Drew,’ he said, ‘I would still love to have you, but I have to trust what our medical people are saying …’ He went on from there, like he was reading from a script. But I was starting to tune out. By then I had all the information I needed. I had made my decision.”
Brees told Saban thanks, and he’d be going to New Orleans, even though telling Saban that might kill his negotiating position with the Saints.
As Brees told me, “The impression I get from the Dolphins was I should feel lucky they were even looking at me. It just wasn’t a welcoming feeling.”
Link
I don't know of anyone who has said that you can't get into the playoffs without a great QB. Every year it seems as though a team with so-so QB play makes the playoffs, and if they have a great run game and a great defense, they might even make it to the Conference Championship game.
We don't know how this year will turn out yet, but with passing rules being opened up on a seemingly weekly basis, we can see how this impacts the Super Bowl. This year will probably see another pair of great QBs make it. In the previous 9, the QBs for both teams have been:
Tom Brady
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Ben Roethlisberger
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Jake Delhomme
There are some exceptions in there, like Grossman, but for the most part, great QBs drive their teams to the Super Bowl.
Can anyone even name any of the RBs for any of the teams in the past 8 or 9 Super Bowls? Go back more than a couple of years and I sure couldn't.
I don't want Saban, I don't want Lombardi and I don't want McD. All of them spell failure to me in one aspect or another. When the going gets tough, Saban's outta there, not Bobby Petrino gone, but close. Lombardi is just not good at the job he wants and McD is little Napoleon. A good coordinator, just don't let him have the reins.
Of course I didn't like Belichick when he was here (benched Bernie) and had I been a Pats fan I wouldn't have wanted him there, so take my opinion for what its worth...
I liked Belichick ...... but McDaniels isn't Belichick.
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Can anyone even name any of the RBs for any of the teams in the past 8 or 9 Super Bowls?
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Tom Brady: Dillon, Lawfirm, Woodhead
Eli Manning: Jackson, Bradshaw
Aaron Rodgers: Grant, Starks
Ben Roethlisberger: Fast Willie, Bettis, Mendenhall
Drew Brees: Bush, Thomas
Peyton Manning: Addai, Rhodes
Kurt Warner: Wells, Edge James
Rex Grossman: Thomas Jones, Benson
Matt Hasselbeck: Shuan Alexander (MVP)
Donovan McNabb: Westbrook
Jake Delhomme: Stewart, Williams
The only two I had to look up are Starks and Rhodes. I could remember THEM (kept putting down "Sparks") just not their names.
Saban sucked as a HC every bit as bad as McDaniels, probably worse. We need to stop picking fruit from the Billicheck tree. Chop it down and build a bum fire cause the only thing it has produced is freaking bums.
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Saban sucked as a HC every bit as bad as McDaniels, probably worse.
Someone forgot the purple font.
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Saban sucked as a HC every bit as bad as McDaniels, probably worse. We need to stop picking fruit from the Billicheck tree. Chop it down and build a bum fire cause the only thing it has produced is freaking bums.
Sucked? Really? He has more wins in two years than some of our HCs would have in 3.
Stewart and Williams were still in high school when the Panthers were in the Super Bowl.
Yeah.
Those were the DeShaun Foster and Stephen Davis days.
I only remember them cuz that was my Madden team back in the day, and I ran the ball about 60 times a game
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Saban sucked as a HC every bit as bad as McDaniels, probably worse. We need to stop picking fruit from the Billicheck tree. Chop it down and build a bum fire cause the only thing it has produced is freaking bums.
Sucked? Really? He has more wins in two years than some of our HCs would have in 3.
I honestly forgot how well he did... his second year he was killed by horrible QB play... and honestly if something as big as the Bama job didn't come calling I think he would have stayed at Miami and been pretty successful...
I'm ok with Saban, though don't think he's going anywhere... can't imagine he'd want to leave bama for cleveland unless he feels like he can't accomplish anything else in college and really wants to prove himself in the NFL.
I'm not a fan of McD at all... just comes across as a young punk to me.... maybe the Denver job has humbled him some... but again I think he'll get an opportunity in the NFL as a head coach, just not sure i want him in cleveland.
I want NO part of Lombardi... unless it's the trophy...
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Stewart and Williams were still in high school when the Panthers were in the Super Bowl.
Crap.
I remembered they had the two head RB combo. Just brain farted and threw in the names I remembered.
I remember think Foster was ganna break out when he signed with another team. Never did.
Are we really crediting Raider picks to Lombardi? Do you think Al Davis was really letting someone else make the picks for him?
So let's get this straight YTown.......
So you're saying a HC who is only given one real O weapon to work with, going 10-6 with a mediocre QB is a good thing or a bad thing?
That's the only point I tried to make. I feel he did quite a bit of good under those circumstances. Nowhere did I indicate that you could be a SB winner without a good QB which seems to be your bone of contention here.
My point is he took a team without a legit. QB to a 10-6 record and I simply asked what HC candidate is out therte, that would be willing to come here to HC the Browns.
Then somehow you seemed to steer away from that discussion?
I Frankly I don't care about whether or not a coach can make us "good". We could bring back Marty and probably win 10 games every year, and lose in the playoffs in the first round.
I want a coach who can make a team great. Now whether or not that's Childress, or any of the other potential candidates, I just don't know. I don't think that it's Shurmur ...... so I am more than willing to make a change there. Could Childress be the right guy for the job ... or would a guy like Bruce Arians be better ...... or Mike McCoy ..... or Kyle Shannahan ... or even a guy like Brad Seely? (Who I have a lot of respect for, and who I think would make an excellent head coach)
One other thing that no one has thought of is that we could easily keep the defensive staff, and maybe even Childress as OC, and bring in a guy like McDaniels to be the head coach. He's not a WCO guy, so this is probably less likely, but it could be done. Look at what the Steelers did with Tomlin, who was a 4-3 guy before coming to Pittsburgh.
Without knowing what Haslam and Banner truly think, it's hard to discount any possibility. They could like the staff that's in place and dislike Shurmur as head coach. They could decide to stay the course. They could promote Childress or Jauron. I have no clue what they're gonna do.
lol It's all speculation. When there's speculation, I sometimes like to play devil's advocate.
It keeps me from going nuts.
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Are we really crediting Raider picks to Lombardi? Do you think Al Davis was really letting someone else make the picks for him?
I call it a black mark on his record, yes. I can't say that I know for sure who made the final call, but he was the personnel director at the time. Best case is he is a patsy who holds zero value to the organization cause he just catered to what the owner wanted. Sorry, still not interested.
But say I completely take out the Janikowski pick comment, the other stuff still holds up. What has he ever done to benefit an organization?
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Best case is he is a patsy who holds zero value to the organization cause he just catered to what the owner wanted. Sorry, still not interested.
This is the argument against Lombardi with the Raiders. There is no way Al Davis allowed anyone else to make the picks for him. Like everyone else I don't want Lombardi, but I don't hold his Oakland tenure against him. A front office gig in the NFL is a hard thing to come by, I can't blame Lombardi for taking that job even though he had no power.
Also, a couple weeks back there was an interesting article on Lombardi in the Boston Globe, here is one of things I found most interesting:
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One other plus for Lombardi: Despite technically being out of the NFL for five years, it’s one of the worst-kept secrets that he has been consulting for Belichick during that time.
“He still puts the game plans together for Bill Belichick,” Brian Baldinger, Lombardi’s NFL Network colleague, told 92.3 The Fan in Cleveland Friday.
“I see the stuff being used week in, week out. There’s no question that Bill uses the advanced scouting Mike delivers to him.”
It’s arguable how much Lombardi is actually involved with Belichick, who bounces ideas of assorted people outside the building. It’s an effort to stave off the type of groupthink that can sometimes consume and paralyze coaching staffs and personnel departments.
I have to admit that my favorite realistic candidate is Bruce Arians. (I would love to see Brad Seely get a shot, but I think that the Brown want a guy with specific experience on one side of the ball or the other) I think that Arians is an exceptional coach, and I hope that the Browns pursue him. He's also got leadership galore, as he showed this year in Indy.
Nate Ulrich of the Beacon Journal agrees.
Nate Ulrich: Bruce Arians deserves shot as head coach, Browns would be wise to pursue - Browns - Ohio
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/nate-u...pursue-1.361241BEREA: If Browns owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner do what most people expect them to do, they’ll fire coach Pat Shurmur not long after the season finale Sunday against the Pittsburgh Steelers and begin the process of formally interviewing candidates next week.
In the past month, multiple national reports have linked University of Alabama coach Nick Saban, University of Oregon coach Chip Kelly and New England Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels to the Browns’ anticipated vacancy. The list of names to watch also should probably include former Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Oakland Raiders coach Jon Gruden, Cincinnati Bengals offensive coordinator Jay Gruden, Arizona Cardinals defensive coordinator Ray Horton, Denver Broncos offensive coordinator Mike McCoy, New York Giants defensive coordinator Perry Fewell, Washington Redskins offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, San Francisco 49ers offensive coordinator Greg Roman and Jacksonville Jaguars defensive coordinator Mel Tucker.
But of all the potential candidates, there might not be a hotter realistic option for the Browns than Indianapolis Colts offensive coordinator Bruce Arians.
After Colts coach Chuck Pagano was diagnosed with leukemia, the Colts announced Oct. 1 that Arians would serve as their interim coach. They were 1-2 coming off a bye and in danger of coming unglued, but Arians held them together despite their record of 2-14 last season and all the adversity they faced as Pagano began to fight for his life. Arians guided the Colts to a 9-3 record and a postseason berth in Pagano’s absence.
Banner has harped on how important it is for a head coach to possess desirable leadership qualities. Arians, 60, obviously isn’t lacking in that category, and now he has proof.
“You see what he does with offenses,” Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, who played for Arians while he was an assistant for the Steelers, said this week during a conference call. “You see what he can do with a team like the Colts. No disrespect to a lot of the Colts’ players, but they’ve got a lot of guys that people probably haven’t heard of. They’re playing obviously with some motivation for Coach Pagano. But [Arians] knows how to motivate guys, and they want to play for him and he’s a players’ coach. He listens to what the assistant coaches and the players have to say. He’s not an ego guy, so I think all those tangibles can make him a good head coach.”
During Peyton Manning’s first three NFL seasons (1998-2000), Arians tutored him as the quarterbacks coach of the Colts. He then became the offensive coordinator of the Browns and was fired by former coach Butch Davis after the team went 5-11 in 2003 following a playoff appearance the previous season.
Arians, a former head coach at Temple University, went on to become the wide receivers coach of the Steelers (2004-06) before serving as their offensive coordinator (2007-11). He was part of three Super Bowl appearances, including two wins. In his current job, he helps direct rookie quarterback Andrew Luck.
Haslam bought a minority stake in the Steelers in 2008, so he’s familiar with Arians. And Banner has strong ties to Colts General Manager Ryan Grigson because they worked together for nine years with the Philadelphia Eagles. Grigson told the Indianapolis Star that Arians is “a no-brainer” for Coach of the Year.
Arians will certainly have more than one suitor. Here’s hoping that the Browns aggressively pursue.
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How can anyone even trust these 2 clowns if they even consider the likes of Lombardi, McDaniels and Saban...
Please tell me your thought process of putting Saban in the same category as McDaniels and Lombardi.
Ask any Dolphins diehard, he'll tell you
The one I know hated Saban as much as I hated Mangini. He also was the same style of HC going all College HC on some grown up men. Some respond to that boot camp mentality but you'll also lose half the locker room. A good HC's job is to MANAGE different characters into a team concept, not be Napoleon who wants soldiers to bang heads for his post game glory.
Also, Saban is 100% a 3-4 guy, so all the work of the past 2-3 drafts to build a young, "ok" defense with upside would have been wasted. He'd be a terrible hire in every aspect and best compares to Butch Davis....
Right now there's not one name out there rumored that doesn't have me go
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Right now there's not one name out there rumored that doesn't have me go
So. You wanna keep Shurmur?
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Right now there's not one name out there rumored that doesn't have me go
So. You wanna keep Shurmur?
I'd rather keep him than bringing in even 1 of the 3 rumored. If Chan Gailey, Herm Edwards and Romeo got 3 years +, so can Shurm.
My fav plan would be to "sacrifice" Shurm and promote from within OR just replace the HC (and Chilly if need be) from outside (former WCO OC), keeping Heckert, Jauron and the WCO concept intact for another season....those are my best case scenarios, so I'm not enamoured with Shurm or Chilly, but would give them anotehr year as I think the coaching did a good job developing this young roster and keep them together and motivated, that's not to be undestimated...
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Best case is he is a patsy who holds zero value to the organization cause he just catered to what the owner wanted. Sorry, still not interested.
This is the argument against Lombardi with the Raiders. There is no way Al Davis allowed anyone else to make the picks for him. Like everyone else I don't want Lombardi, but I don't hold his Oakland tenure against him. A front office gig in the NFL is a hard thing to come by, I can't blame Lombardi for taking that job even though he had no power.
Also, a couple weeks back there was an interesting article on Lombardi in the Boston Globe, here is one of things I found most interesting:
Quote:
One other plus for Lombardi: Despite technically being out of the NFL for five years, it’s one of the worst-kept secrets that he has been consulting for Belichick during that time.
“He still puts the game plans together for Bill Belichick,” Brian Baldinger, Lombardi’s NFL Network colleague, told 92.3 The Fan in Cleveland Friday.
“I see the stuff being used week in, week out. There’s no question that Bill uses the advanced scouting Mike delivers to him.”
It’s arguable how much Lombardi is actually involved with Belichick, who bounces ideas of assorted people outside the building. It’s an effort to stave off the type of groupthink that can sometimes consume and paralyze coaching staffs and personnel departments.
Interesting. I did not see that. Thanks for sharing. I still don't like him even taking his Oakland stint out, but I get your point.
J/C
I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on Arians. I know the majority of the board thought Arians was an idiot circa 2003. The board (where ever we were at that point) said he was horrible and couldn't wait to see him go. He moved on to the Steelers and had success. But, he was forced into "retirement" after last season. They thought that Bruce was holding back Big Ben and the O. How has that worked out for them?
Anyway, one of the few jobs open was with the horrific Colts. Arians has done a good job there.
Personally, I would most like to see us get a defensive minded HC who brings in a good OC.
Nothing will improve until we get a legit NFL QB....We have weapons right now but no Qb who knows how to use them, or put them into position to use them to thier strenghts,
I'd be ok with Ariens as Head Coach, he knows offence and hopefully how to call plays to Weedens strenghts, if we keep Weeden.
Hopefully Ariens or our next head coach understands what Dick Jaron has done for our defence and keeps him around to bild upon what he started.
I have a hard time believing this regime wants a guy who all but retired to coach.
Also, Arians is 60 years old. Haven't they said they want a coach who is going to be around for awhile?
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Also, Arians is 60 years old. Haven't they said they want a coach who is going to be around for awhile?
Exactly.
We have youth on the field lets find a coach they hopefully grow old with!
Yeah the age thing is one of the many reasons I think the Saban/Browns rumors are crap as Nick is 61 yrs old. We are probably going to get an unknown guy who nobody has ever heard of.......just praying it isn't McDaniels.
It is so hard to know what rumors are true, and which others are completely off track.
They cannot all be true, because they conflict with one another. Rumors have us wanting McDaniels/Lombardi, yet not wanting a previously failed head coach. The latter would also rule out Nick Saban ....... so who knows what we're going to get?
Personally I am going to hope for Bruce Arians in combination with a high quality GM candidate.
