Browns need to be proactive or risk losing three offensive linemen
Free agency does not start for six weeks, but the Cleveland Browns can do some work in the short-term that might help them avoid having to rebuild their offensive line.
Three key and effective starters either will be a free agent, could be a free agent, or might want to be free.
Mitchell Schwartz's contract is up. Alex Mack could opt out of the final three seasons of his deal. And Joe Thomas was so distraught at the end of the season that he left open the possibility that he might not want to return.
Rebuilding a losing team is tough.
Rebuilding while creating extra needs is tougher still.
The Browns did that a year ago when they let CB Buster Skrine, DE Jabaal Sheard, DT Ahtyba Rubin and TE Jordan Cameron walk without barely making an offer. The team was able to replace Cameron with Gary Barnidge, but the defense missed every player that departed.
If the Browns let three offensive linemen go, they'll be creating needs that don't currently exist. They'll be saying goodbye to a future Hall of Famer, two Pro Bowlers and an underrated right tackle.
Compounding the problem is the Browns lack the depth to replace one tackle, let alone two. Cameron Erving was supposed to be the versatile backup last season, but his poor footwork and lack of strength were glaring as a rookie. The Browns can't count on him to replace anyone at this point.
Schwartz is the most underrated of the three. He's a good player who has more respect around the league than he does in Cleveland.
Midway through the season ProFootballFocus.com had Schwartz the top-rated right tackle in the league. He dropped off a little bit the rest of the season, but still had a good season.
He's not the most nimble tackle, but he plays with leverage, positioning and angles. He's smart, knows how to prepare and knows the league.
Former Pro Bowl lineman LeCharles Bentley now assesses and coaches offensive line play for a living. His take on Schwartz: "Contrary to popular opinion, consistent and durable offensive linemen aren't falling off trees. You know exactly what you're going to get with Schwartz. He's works hard. There's no drama. He's durable. And a good player. The draft isn't a sure thing; see Cam Erving. There may be one free agent right tackle better than him. Mitch is legit."
The Browns have no replacement on the roster.
Mack rebounded from a slow start to regain his Pro Bowl form as the season went on. His slow start was understandable given he was coming back form a broken ankle that sidelined him for 11 games in 2014. That he made the Pro Bowl shows the respect he has around the league.
He can become a free agent because of a mistake made when Mack was a free agent two years ago. The Browns could have franchised Mack, which essentially would have kept him with the Browns. Instead, they chose to save $1 million (when they had tens of millions in cap room) and gave him the transition tag.
Mack signed a five-year deal with Jacksonville that the Browns matched, but it gives Mack the right to become a free agent in March. The choice is his, purely. He said late in the season nothing was certain, and he would be giving up $8 million the next three seasons to test the waters, but Mack could leave the losing and go to a better team, if he so chooses.
His replacement: Erving.
Thomas is a whole different level.
He's a perennial Pro Bowler and All-Pro, and had one of his best seasons at age 31.
ProFootballFocus.com named him its best offensive lineman, and its best pass blocker. Thomas talked about the science of the position, the angles. He's aware of nuance and opponents. He's at a different level than other left tackles.
But Thomas also was distraught at the thought of more change with the Browns, and left open the possibility he might not want to be back on the day the 2015 season ended. It was a shocking admission from a guy who always had said he wanted to play only in Cleveland.
There is no obvious replacement on the roster.
The Browns are not innocent bystanders regarding these players. They can negotiate with and talk to their players before free agency starts.
It might be wise to be proactive when it comes to these three linemen.
If the Browns want to draft and develop a QB, it is best to put that QB behind a veteran OLine.
But, because we have new management, there is no way to know if they will put a high priority on keeping this OLine together.
One hope I have is that Hue Jackson is a good enough salesman to convince them to hang in there. I also look at the arrogance of a Ray Farmer as a stumbling block to success with retaining players. I don't think anyone on the team believed him anymore. Him being Gone I look at as a plus.
I'm sure money won't be a problem. Sashi Brown doesn't strike me as a guy that will play chicken with these guys over a few hundred thousand.
Those are the things I'm hanging onto.
There is the theory that putting a trade together for Thomas would net us a lot of picks/players etc.
I don't really like the idea of trading thomas but if they somehow (and I don't know how) happen to improve us, then so be it. But the day they trade him, I'll probably go berserk LOL
I'm sure each and every reboot is not a welcomed situation to anyone and nobody has seen more than Joe Thomas.
But all these articles seem miss leading unless I missed the quote or something. Cause what I read in quotes from Joe Thomas on this.
1. It was right after the firing depression at its highest and after he and several veterans asked to not have Pet fired.
2. I think it was also because that sealed the fate of his good friend Mack to not stay unless Hue can talk him into staying???
3. But what I read was him stating if the Browns look to shop him he might think about accepting that fate and move on - something he never even hinted about.
4. But the over all articles I read from writers is that JOE THOMAS requested a trade...that I have not read as of yet from Thomas.
5. Erving will make it. Also I liked Paztor - Erving or Greco moves to Center. Joe Thomas will be back in action. IF for some reason he is really pursuant on getting traded - We should get a late first rounder and more and I can assure you that would mean our overall #2 pick will probably be a Left Tackle.
6. No matter what happens you have to move on and make lemonade.
What nobody has mentioned as a possibility - if Titans go Bosa. We go and get the BPA of the draft who would be LT...who would be playing RT for the next 3 years and ready himself to take over for Joe Thomas when he retires. We probably won't get a shot (hopefully) this early in the draft to pick and get a stud Left Tackle.
So that would make our OL.
Thomas - Bitonio - Erving - Greco - Overall #2 pick Note if they sign Paztor who I hope we do - we can shake up that Center/RG between the 3 candidates. Greco at Center Paztor at RG?
jmho and what I would do especially if Bosa goes #1. I'm sure it will go over well on this board...lol
If we draft an offensive linemen #2 overall this franchise deserves the misery and suckitude it has brought upon itself. It will prove that they will NEVER learn and so do the fans that keep on insisting we spend high draft picks on offensive line.
There were a lot of posters ragging on the OL this year. I'm going to love listening to their takes next year should we lose two or three of these guys.
If we draft an offensive linemen #2 overall this franchise deserves the misery and suckitude it has brought upon itself. It will prove that they will NEVER learn and so do the fans that keep on insisting we spend high draft picks on offensive line.
Why???the last time we took an OL man from the top 5 hes been in the Pro Bowl for 9 seasons. We got an excellent pick with MACK. Last year at 19??? Wasn't an instant gratification of pick I understand but what does that have to do with possibly taking the BPA of the draft?
JT's not going anywhere. It sounds like Farmer went to the Joe Banner school of FA's. I think Farmer saw JT's age coming up and pulled a Banner on getting rid of older players. Farmer also was not interested in sitting down and hammering out a deal with our other FA's. Almost got the feeling if he had to try and talk them into re-signing then they weren't worth it. I hope SB has a better manner towards our players. Maybe he can talk Mack into staying for another year. I think they get MS to re-sign, one less problem on the OL.
I think you punched a serious problem, Damanshot. We have enough to do with the roster without O-line issues mucking it up badly. I do believe that job one is to require HueJ to have a real talk and listen to what they want to say and need too get off their chests. Keep these three if possible. Time to cater to the Big Uglies and get as many locked in as possible. This O-line group deserves some props after the nonsense they have endured. Our new coach needs to convince them there is a new sheriff in town that will respect them, help them on offense with play calling and design, and let them enjoy some success that has been often promised and seldom realized. Boils down to start with "What do you believe in?" IMO. This group has been beaten on while being handcuffed to play calling that kept the the box overloaded most of the game in most games. I think the group needs hope, pure and simple, for something effective.
And don't snub them and insult them either. Prioritize getting it communicated that they are something special here. And pay them. Or make an offer that will work.
If the Browns want to draft and develop a QB, it is best to put that QB behind a veteran OLine.
But, because we have new management, there is no way to know if they will put a high priority on keeping this OLine together.
Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that given this line, that new management would treat any of them with indifference because they aren't "their guys". It's consistently rated as a top group, it does well at pass protection, and has shown it can be really good at run blocking.
Having said that, it will take a huge leap of faith particularly on the part of JoeT and Mack to stay here. But if JoeT asks to get traded, I have no doubt we'll squeeze everything we can out of that trade. I know some people were freaking out about possibly trading him last season, and the fear that analytics will direct us to trade him. I don't think that is necessarily so. I think it's one thing to trade away a WR, RB, or defensive player at their high point because those are positions you can generally predict a sharp decrease in production at some point. On the flip side, if you're QB is having a good run over a few seasons, you generally don't just up and trade him for a bunch of picks because the stability at that position has a lot of value in it's own right. I see the LT position pretty much the same way.
I really like the Paztor fella. I think the difference was near night and day when he replaced Erving. I hope we keep him and if it were up to me in regards to Erving, I'd have him focus on either the exterior or interior line positions... not the whole line. Let him get proficient at one area before putting him elsewhere.
Keeping this O line together is going to be a huge test for Hue and for this new FO structure.
It makes you hope Hue Jackson has a silver tongue. I'd love to keep Thomas unless we do get a Hershel Walker blockbuster trade. We don't have a replacement for Mack or Schwartz, and we still need a QB. JFF has proven himself to be too much of a prima donna that is more interested in himself than the team. I honestly don't think he'll ever be much better than what we saw last year, either in playing or practice effort. To top it off, we get a huge question mark back in Gordon this year. This team is set up to be completely overturned right now.
I agree. In Erving's case, he needs to get stronger, first priority. I have never cared about how a guy can play so many positions as a plus. If he plays mediocre at all of them, not a positive, and Erving was a real liability too often. The idea is a good one if he is inside or outside and learning fewer things. Always time for him to go with a must make do situation later. But get him beefed up first and work on his feet. Then he may be more playable in a pinch in more spots.
Paztor could actually beat out Greco if they all stayed. In Hue's system there are a lot of plays with pulling guards, centers and tackles. That is what Paztor does best. Bitonio should do well in that area as well and same with Mack and Thomas. Schwartz will probably not be asked to pull much. It's not what he does best.
Paztor could actually beat out Greco if they all stayed. In Hue's system there are a lot of plays with pulling guards, centers and tackles. That is what Paztor does best. Bitonio should do well in that area as well and same with Mack and Thomas. Schwartz will probably not be asked to pull much. It's not what he does best.
Greco should probably be put into a reserve roll as a backup OC / OG
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
No I really like Greco. I'm just talking about fit in the system. He still is a road grader and therefore valuable to have in a power based scheme.
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
And to me this will be a true test of how much analytics will play in our roster. I believe how our players are handled during this off season will be a big clue in who runs the show here.
i remember Vers and myself not happy about Sheard going last year voice more by Vers and also Rubin although myself I thought Rubin had seen better day and still think that. Now that he has played well for the PATS so many have different views on him then 10 months ago.
Greco been a fan since he came over from the RAMS. One season I was not hot on him when he was paying LG..but I thought he grew into the role and got better and better each season including this one.
I see him as a starter with us 100%.
Need that OC and Run coordinator to get that OL Coach. I thought we were to have our GM by the end of last week?
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
I was probably the 1st Greco fan on this board. (gotta root for the guy from my alma mater, Boardman High)
That said, I really liked this Pasztur kid, and the way he was able to pull effectively. I wonder, out of him, Bitonio, and Greco, who would be our best Guard duo? However, depending on what happens with the OL as the off-season goes on, maybe we'll need all 3 of those guys.
I thought we were to have our GM by the end of last week?
Not sure I heard that. I thought they said they would begin the search immediately. That's all I heard.
Keep in mind, they want Jackson to sit in on the interviews for the GM, so they had to get him hired and in before the interviews could start. But even more importantly than that, when developing the list of qualities they want in the person, I'd think that since they want Jackson in on the interviews, they'd want his input on those qualities.
I'm sure that's done, I'm sure a list has been compiled and I'm sure calls to determine interest have been made.
It won't be long now.
I do wonder a little, could they just be happy with Bill Kuharick. He's a guy that has a boat load of experience. If he's not totally tied to Farmer, I'm sure he could be a candidate. How strong, I don't know.
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
I was probably the 1st Greco fan on this board. (gotta root for the guy from my alma mater, Boardman High)
That said, I really liked this Pasztur kid, and the way he was able to pull effectively. I wonder, out of him, Bitonio, and Greco, who would be our best Guard duo? However, depending on what happens with the OL as the off-season goes on, maybe we'll need all 3 of those guys.
I could see a mix of the 3. Bitonio and Paztur pull better, but Greco just mauls guys.
I wonder if I am Grecco's only fan on this board? People talk about Schwartz being underrated, but I think Grecco is severely under appreciated. He is strong enough at the point of attack, but perhaps a bit tall for RG. He pulls well. He area blocks well. He plays w/a lot of intelligence. I think he is a very good player.
I hope we keep the OL together. They are much better than some posters give them credit for.
I thought pretty much everyone on here was a fan of both Greco and Bitonio.
Stud: Our Bruce Matthews award winner for best lineman in the league, Joe Thomas has never let his high standard drop. This year was no exception.
Dud: First-round pick Cameron Erving had a rough time of things. He looked monumentally out of his depth in his 429 snaps.
Summary: The tackles were the highlight of the line, with both Thomas and Mitchell Schwartz playing extremely well. The interior play prevented this line from being any higher on the list, though both guards were far from disappointing, and Alex Mack never a liability. We’ve just seen them all play better, with it not coming together this year.
I haven't been reading or posting on here very much lately, so please forgive me if this has been posted before (it's an in depth look at Shon Coleman by LeCharles Bentley).
I haven't been reading or posting on here very much lately, so please forgive me if this has been posted before (it's an in depth look at Shon Coleman by LeCharles Bentley).
I haven't been reading or posting on here very much lately, so please forgive me if this has been posted before (it's an in depth look at Shon Coleman by LeCharles Bentley).
He probably just forgot to add it. Here is one article by Bentley on Coleman:
Quote:
OLP - Block Report - Steelers The newest member of the Cleveland Browns, Shon Coleman, could be a tremendous value pick in the third-round. Shon Coleman has all of the prerequisite tools to qualify himself as a first-round NFL draft selection. When you hear of teams “checking the boxes”, there aren’t many boxes he’s going to leave unmarked. This kid is smart, tough, hardworking, and will represent what the Cleveland Browns used to be, and are working to reclaim. This organization, just as many others, has missed on drafts picks. Shon Coleman in the third-round was a smart pick with the potential to be a brilliant one.
The Caveat
With any draft pick, there has to be a plan in place addressing the flaws. Every player selected is carrying a bag full of issues that can affect their development in the NFL. The players selected higher in the draft are thought to have less, while the lower drafted players appear to have more. Well, it’s not the quantity of flaws, it’s the type of flaws seperating the flame out first-round pick versus the undrafted player that has a great career. The Browns haven’t displayed the propensity to develop a proactive plan in addressing these issues. Johnny Manziel, Cam Erving, Josh Gordon, and Justin Gilbert are examples. I understand each of the players were selected by multiple regimes, but the point stands. The people in the 2016 draft room aren’t all innocent bystanders.
It’s my understanding the current plan for Shon Coleman is to play him on the right side. In theory, it addresses a need. In reality, it’s a poor idea, unless there’s a plan in place to address his flaws. Shon Coleman is a project, he’s not a plug and play draft pick. If he’s expected to be the “answer,” without the organization giving him an answer key, this will be another wasted draft pick and Browns fans will be singing the same old tune.
Related: Wiring Your Body for Optimal Performance
Overall
Shon Coleman is a lesser version of Greg Robinson. I don’t say this solely because of their Auburn roots, but that’s part of the equation. Athletes like Greg Robinson playing offensive line are rare gems. Shon Coleman doesn’t quite have the tool box Greg Robinson has, but he’s not too far outside of the conversation. Shon plays the game with a physical demeanor. When he’s “on,” Shon plays the game with a throwback mentality. The problem with him being “on,” is the fact he’s not always “on.” There are times when he appears to be disconnected to what’s going on. This is surely a cause for alarm, but it’s not inconsistent behavior with extremely physically gifted offensive linemen. Offensive linemen like Shon possess wide receiver like personality traits. This is what I mean. The gifted receivers often shut down when it’s not a “big game,” or they know the ball isn’t coming their way. It’s the same deal with offensive linemen like Shon. When it’s a big game (Texas A&M), they show up. When the opponent or stage isn’t conducive to bringing out their best, they look disconnected. The problem with offensive linemen like this in the NFL, they struggle adjusting to the constant high level competition. Truly special players will fight you in a parking lot, they don’t need the lights of Monday Night Football.
Areas of Improvement
Shon Coleman, like most physically gifted offensive linemen are high level compensators. They are able to cover up mechanical or physical deficiencies by relying on their natural tools. Offensive line in the NFL doesn’t require high level athletic prowess. It’s a position of movement mastery. Shon Coleman will not be able to “get by” with his born ability anymore.
Ankle Immobility – People say Shon plays too high. You would too if your ankles were as stiff as his. If this is not addressed, he will continue to have knee issues and play with poor pad level.
Poor Hip Extension – Shon does not play “through his hips”. He struggles extending himself in the run game, thus playing too stiff legged and wide. This can easily be missed because he wasn’t asked to play in a 3-point stance in college. When he puts his hand in the dirt, can’t hide it there.
Weak Lower Back/Glutes – Typically, when the front (anterior) is tight, the back (posterior) “turns off”. There’s loads of untapped power in his game, but it will not show up until his hips are addressed. Until then, he’s more susceptible to low back, knee, and back injury.
Spread Offense – I won’t mince my words here. Offensive linemen aren’t developed in the spread. There will be an adjustment to the mental and physical demands placed upon him. A simple example, more frequently playing in a 3-point stance. How will he adjust? Related: Top 3 Ways To Improve Pad Level
Moving to Right Tackle
This is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. You ever try writing with your left hand, when you’re right handed? That same uncoordinated feeling is what it’s like to switch sides of the line. Also, what happens with the “areas of improvement” mentioned above, they become functional defaults. This means your brain/body has learned how to make the conditions work for you, albeit not optimal, but functional. When you attempt to reverse those engrained firing patterns by flipping sides, it can get costly to performance. Imagine this, putting your dominate hand in a cast for a year. You’ll get pretty decent at working with your non-dominant hand. The brain will adjust for survival. At the end of a year, we remove the cast from what used to be your dominant hand. Your writing with this hand will be very sloppy until the brain rewires itself to become more proficient with the formerly casted hand. This takes time. It takes more time when trying to learn a new playbook, adapt to the NFL game, and learning new surroundings are all taking place at the same time. Will this be an easy transition, not at all. Is it impossible, absolutely not. Will it all happen prior to your quarterback being placed on injured reserve because a defender blew by your right tackle and decapitated him, I hope so.
I’m sure the Browns organization knows all of this and will adjust. If not, they know now. It’s on them to help him and not throw him under the bus if he doesn’t pan out.
Well he is a 3rd rounder in his rookie season... 1. he is not being given the RT job he will have to earn it.
2. Was he in Bently's camp...if not then he has made this evaluation on film. Which is hard to tell what he will do in the 3 point stance. Like all coming up it is one of many things he will have to overcome.
3. I agree on what he has stated about spread offenses...it is so hard to evaluate a lot of positions because of the offense.
4. I don't ever remember a 3rd round pick OL taken as an automatic plug and play...just cause he is being said by even Bently that he has 1st round qualities - nobody said he will be plug and play. If he plays its because the others are not competent and might as well throw him into the fire. Kid from Dallas who played RT...struggled his first 6 games...even bust was thought of by some (fans). Then he just caught on and next season switching back to the left side. LT in college RT first season and then LT second season.
Not quite like hand writing...but never the less a transition that has to be worked on.
I will be happy and surprised if he wins the RT job. We'll see his prospects 3 years from now look very good assuming he develops.
All of that except the left to right side thing is insignificant.
The stiff ankle comment had me laughing hard. (what are NFL players freaking FRANKENSTEIN!
You guys keep arguing over the mechanics of the golf swing, but tell me Who's on the leaderboard.
Which means, I don't care what his hips do, just make the flippin Block! And can we get 5-8 guys to play in a spot and GEL side by side with the man to their left and right and have the TE and back pick up a rush! Maybe his lack of being a hothead will benefit his team player status.
""" really special players will fight you in a parking lot."""
Ya! That's NUTS, and true in a different way.
Really special players, Terelle Owens, will do sit ups in driveways for reporters, ehh Really special players (Rickey Williams) will miss half a career to enjoy the wonders of marijuana.
Really special players, Hernandez, New England, will be in the courts on murder charges Really special players, Randy Moss, will get publicity for arguing with metermaids.
Really special players, Josh Gordon will miss about 2 seasons on drug test suspensions.
The only one I really liked was Moss,... and Gordon, (get well soon).
But really special players don't probably make up the right ingredient to be the cogs in the wheel to create the type of offensive line that is going to , (1 RUN BLOCK!!!), going to be an asset of a team that earns a winning record. Maybe I'm sayin the Oline needs to be a group not a place for individuals, or premadonnas
I'm sure it's of Utmost importance who's on ones left to right side.
Player x can be a 10 level o-lineman, but can play at 11-12, or as bad as 6-7 based on if he has a Sieve or Experienced competence on either side of him.
As long as we move our feet and don't Lean on our blocks we will be OK. We don't have bums.
I got be honest I cannot predict Bailey at RT...without looking at him (preseason will be my first opportunity) I expect him to be darn good in the run blocking schemes and don't know about his pass blocking...we might have to chip block. With JT on the other side that gives us the opportunity to help him out.
+1, no bums, we should have good competition for slots- young competition...we'll know something when real hitting starts and Hue will put first string thru their paces during exhibition games.....Go Browns!!!! PS like the fact several lineman best in their conferences...shouldn't be slugs.
Looks like the stats are showing what was pretty obvious last year... McCown was getting hit pretty quickly despite getting the ball out relatively well. Gotta feel bad for Alex Smith... he wasn't holding the ball much but getting hit twice every eleven pass plays.
Code:
PLAYER AGE CONTACT % AVG. TIME BEFORE THROW
Tyrod Taylor 27 22.8 2.82
Russell Wilson 27 21.9 2.67
Cam Newton 27 21.7 2.61
C. Kaepernick 28 18.7 2.56
Alex Smith 32 18.4 2.32
T. Bridgewater 23 15.9 2.81
Josh McCown 37 15.5 2.49
Marcus Mariota 22 15.4 2.55
Andrew Luck 26 15.2 2.67
I'm more worried about our OL's run blocking than pass blocking, but who knows how we'll look without Mack or Schwartz
Lots of good young competition for line spots this year. They loaded up with bodies with some talent. Can they be the guys that fill the holes? not sure, but we'll see.
Looks like the stats are showing what was pretty obvious last year... McCown was getting hit pretty quickly despite getting the ball out relatively well. Gotta feel bad for Alex Smith... he wasn't holding the ball much but getting hit twice every eleven pass plays.
Code:
PLAYER AGE CONTACT % AVG. TIME BEFORE THROW
Tyrod Taylor 27 22.8 2.82
Russell Wilson 27 21.9 2.67
Cam Newton 27 21.7 2.61
C. Kaepernick 28 18.7 2.56
Alex Smith 32 18.4 2.32
T. Bridgewater 23 15.9 2.81
Josh McCown 37 15.5 2.49
Marcus Mariota 22 15.4 2.55
Andrew Luck 26 15.2 2.67
Source: ESPN Stats & Information
Too bad it doesn't say which QBs got it out the quickest. I've been looking for that stat for awhile.
Looks like the stats are showing what was pretty obvious last year... McCown was getting hit pretty quickly despite getting the ball out relatively well. Gotta feel bad for Alex Smith... he wasn't holding the ball much but getting hit twice every eleven pass plays.
Code:
PLAYER AGE CONTACT % AVG. TIME BEFORE THROW
Tyrod Taylor 27 22.8 2.82
Russell Wilson 27 21.9 2.67
Cam Newton 27 21.7 2.61
C. Kaepernick 28 18.7 2.56
Alex Smith 32 18.4 2.32
T. Bridgewater 23 15.9 2.81
Josh McCown 37 15.5 2.49
Marcus Mariota 22 15.4 2.55
Andrew Luck 26 15.2 2.67
Source: ESPN Stats & Information
Too bad it doesn't say which QBs got it out the quickest. I've been looking for that stat for awhile.
Profootball focus had time of release numbers for QBs. But they don't publish them to the public anymore but if you Google search you can find previous seasons.
Profootball focus had time of release numbers for QBs. But they don't publish them to the public anymore but if you Google search you can find previous seasons.
clevesteve- good article/ link
Want to respond further but on cell phone
Yeah, I knew they used to provide that information. Now it is unavailable to the public.
I think Rodgers is amazing. It seems like he is able to get rid of it the quickest when he wants to. His time goes up because he does scramble around and buys so much time when his first couple of guys aren't open.
I think Rodgers is amazing. It seems like he is able to get rid of it the quickest when he wants to. His time goes up because he does scramble around and buys so much time when his first couple of guys aren't open.
I think he's the best pocket manipulator in the game ... and maybe the best ever. He's so aware, innate, and subtle.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
You got a link or a video saying Pasztor is the starter? I think they are rotating there? Not doubting you just curious to see it.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
You got a link or a video saying Pasztor is the starter? I think they are rotating there? Not doubting you just curious to see it.
I think he may just be basing it off of Hue's comments about him being solid and the fact that he keeps showing up with the 1's
Browns sticking with Austin Pasztor at RT, Rannell Hall out for the season, 'high expectations' for run game
Browns sticking with Austin Pasztor at right tackle
The Browns seem to have found some stability at right tackle on their new-look offensive line, as Jackson said they’ll stick with Austin Pasztor.
“I thought Austin battled, I thought he battled hard for his first time under the gun,” he said. “I thought he competed extremely hard and I think he’s only going to get better.”
Pasztor, the fifth-year player from who started four games for Cleveland in 2015, joins Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio, Cameron Erving and John Greco on the Browns first-team unit.
Jackson also made it clear that he thinks the offensive line is capable of playing better and such improvement should come as the group gels together.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
You got a link or a video saying Pasztor is the starter? I think they are rotating there? Not doubting you just curious to see it.
I think he may just be basing it off of Hue's comments about him being solid and the fact that he keeps showing up with the 1's
Okay, got it then. Just that the last I heard the position was in flux and they were going to be moving guys around to see who the best player was at the position. I really don't care who plays RT as long as they are not a complete turnstile.
Browns sticking with Austin Pasztor at RT, Rannell Hall out for the season, 'high expectations' for run game
Browns sticking with Austin Pasztor at right tackle
The Browns seem to have found some stability at right tackle on their new-look offensive line, as Jackson said they’ll stick with Austin Pasztor.
“I thought Austin battled, I thought he battled hard for his first time under the gun,” he said. “I thought he competed extremely hard and I think he’s only going to get better.”
Pasztor, the fifth-year player from who started four games for Cleveland in 2015, joins Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio, Cameron Erving and John Greco on the Browns first-team unit.
Jackson also made it clear that he thinks the offensive line is capable of playing better and such improvement should come as the group gels together.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
You got a link or a video saying Pasztor is the starter? I think they are rotating there? Not doubting you just curious to see it.
I think he may just be basing it off of Hue's comments about him being solid and the fact that he keeps showing up with the 1's
Joe Thomas also mentioned that he thought Pasztor should be the starting right tackle.
Greco and Paz need really start working together because those two allowed miscommunication to result in to many negatives. ERving had one bad play also but that right side was tripping over one another.
Looks like Pastzor will get the starting position at RT. Not sure where that leaves Bailey....will they keep him or focus on getting Drango and Colemon up to speed or release a rookie?
Glad the competition for the position is over so the line can now work together. Hopefully we can see some improvement as quick as pre-season game 2 vs ATL.
You got a link or a video saying Pasztor is the starter? I think they are rotating there? Not doubting you just curious to see it.
I think he may just be basing it off of Hue's comments about him being solid and the fact that he keeps showing up with the 1's
Joe Thomas also mentioned that he thought Pasztor should be the starting right tackle.
Listened to whole thing, didn't hear what you heard, Hue stated we need to get better, he competed..blah, blah,...heard mix and match....first preseason game, JMHO, I expect he'll rotated guys in and out at RT...seems our C has been picked....GO Browns!!!
ERving had one bad play also but that right side was tripping over one another.
I saw two bad plays by Erving. One he blocked the guy to his left and let a guy on his right run past him untouched on his way to the QB. That could have been Grecco's guy but I don't see Grecco making that mistake. The other one he simply got beat. I think that's the one RG completed a short pass to Barnage before getting hit. I also saw, at least once, Erving get to the second level for a good block after clearing out the guy in front of him, passing him off to Bitonio. All-in-all, a lot of good teaching points for the coaches.
I saw two bad plays by Erving. One he blocked the guy to his left and let a guy on his right run past him untouched on his way to the QB. That could have been Grecco's guy but I don't see Grecco making that mistake. The other one he simply got beat. I think that's the one RG completed a short pass to Barnage before getting hit. I also saw, at least once, Erving get to the second level for a good block after clearing out the guy in front of him, passing him off to Bitonio. All-in-all, a lot of good teaching points for the coaches.
The first play you mentioned was supposed to be a screen. The timing was off all around. If Crow had been where he was supposed to be (not necessarily his fault that he wasn't) the play looked like it was set up to get pretty good yardage. Hopefully, Hue works out the kinks. The ability to run a screen effectively some day would be nice.
The OL will be MONEYBALLS shining example of why it WON'T WORK ...
- we had/have TONS of space under the cap .. - we had/have NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVES to C and RT (Safety is going to be another SHINING EXAMPLE) .. - yet they WALKED with not even a SQUIRMISH much less a fight ...
So MONEYBALL says there WORTH X ... We won't pay more and they leave .... Even though we have TONS OF CASH AND NO REPLACEMENTS IN SITE ...
The folks that think analytics and money ball is a stroke of genius and making up all the Bull to justify it ... Well they can't RECTIFY/JUSTIFY this one .. No matter how hard they try and point the fingers in other places .. For those w/o blinders on .. THAT ONES A NO-BRAINER!!!
It makes ZERO SENSE and is in no way anything close to the formula on building a winning football team ...
U throw the safety in and not only were these guys WAY BETTER THAN anything we had/have .. THEY WERE YOUNG ...
If your NOT GOING TO SPEND MONEY ON YOUR OWN YOUNG TALENT WHO THE HELL U GONNA SPEND IT ON???
What some call MONEYBALL and analytics .. I call COMMON SENSE ...
One of the menzas in the packer forum said analytics proved its worth cause of all the potential of the young guys ... Well if u need someone with a computer and a spreadsheet to tell u the more picks u make the better the odds are statistically U hit on more numbers wise then u got way bigger problems ... Once again COMMON SENSE ..
But u know what else is COMMON SENSE ... Not letting your good young players walk when u HAVE TONS OF CASH UNDER THE CAP AND NO VIABLE REPLACDEMENTS AND 17 OR WO OTHER HOLES TO FILL ...
Crap ... Even if EVERY DRAFT PICK WORKED OUT THIS year .. We'd still have a dozen holes to fill ...
It just blows my mind when u look at our entire picture and look at the pieces we have and how many pieces we need and the fact we let these guys walk ..
We created more holes in a SIEVE .... Hmmm ... Wonder if these guys come from GOVERMENT .. *L* ...
Oh well .. Here's to what we got .. We'll see what Hue and staff can do with the pups ...
Funny thing is .. When were 2 - 9 .. We'll be calming everyone down ... *LOL* ..
Like I said before ..
HC = Lombardi OC = Walsh DC = Bilicheck
You'd still be lucky to win 4 games .. And I mean LUUUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKYYYYYYYY ..
This was a re-build and for some reason we let part of it walk .... Only winner here seems to be Jimmy and Dee's pocket book ..
I dont think its a stroke of genius to overpay someone bc u are desperate either.
Give these guys (whoever is named starter) time to gel, and they'll get better with time.
It is also assuming that both Scwwartz and Mack have no role in their not being here.
Wow .. So u guys are saying it's just a coincidence? .. Same with Gipson ... *LOL* ..
OK ..
And did we not make Schwartz and Gipson offers? ..
And overpaying .. Really? .. Do me a favor and go get me a list of FA's that have been UNDERPAID on the market .. That'll be a short short short list ..
Overpaying for ANY FA is a given ...
Ummm .. Also kinda curious as to how one can over pay when we have MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS JUST SITTING THERE doing nothing but EXPIRING before we spend it ..
U guys can sprin it any way u want ... If it looks like a duck .. Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ..
But hey .. We all need hope ... Some folks are just a little slower coming to reality than others ..
That would make me want to leave. It's a bit insulting. Especially when the team has more pressing needs.
I bet Mack is beyond happy to be out of this mess. I think Quinn is going to be a short lived HC, but no one rivals the dysfunction of the Browns. No. One.
I thought he played well enough last year at guard. I'm interested to see what he does at RT. Especially, if we want to run more. I am rather upset that Coleman and Drango didn't beat them out. I understand Shon is coming off of surgery, but dang. You'd expect better from the presumed future starting LT.
pit...you are right, no one wants listen about how cheap the Browns have been. Constantly being near the top of the NFL in cap space available, yet the Browns refuse to sign their own free agents...
...it makes no sense!
Pit, below is your signature...and Sashi Brown was 100% correct when he made that comment...but Sashi Brown has a boss by the name of Haslam.
Sashi Brown, "It's important that we keep our own. It sends the right message to the locker room when you reward guys who do it the right way ..."
IMO, the Browns ownership IS NOT ALL IN, committed to winning...being one of the leaders in cap space available every year is a good indication that the Browns owners are simply "cheap", imo.
The Browns currently rank #2 in cap space available...and that makes "no sense"!
He might be, but Greco is a darn good RG. We have an opening at RT, so that's where Pazstur is competing.
I agree that Greco is a good RG but I'm not sure this scheme is the best fit for him. Last year I felt like he struggled more than in 2014 under Shanahan and the zone blocking scheme. I think that scheme was far better suited for him. That doesn't mean he can't be effective, just not as impactful in the way he was in 2014.
We'll see.
This is an article that fits with my line of thinking. I'm not saying this writer or myself is correct ...just that we view the player in the same way. And to be fair, I've disagreed with this writer on many other issues and the title of the article is a bit over-the-top. Also, I've not followed interviews or videos from as much has I have in the past about this line or coaching so far to know if gap scheme is what we're doing. I've heard it early on when Hue was hired and know Flip used it last year. __________
Cleveland Browns: John Greco’s Future in Flux
With the hire of Hue Jackson as Cleveland Browns head coach, there are going to be some major philosophical changes in how the team plays.
Some of those changes are not apparent yet, but everything suggests a substantial emphasis on gap scheme blocking. That being the case, the future of John Greco in a Cleveland Browns uniform appears doubtful.
Two years ago, Greco had his best season as a Brown under Kyle Shanahan as offensive coordinator. Shanahan’s zone scheme was a perfect fit for the skills that Greco brought to the table and the Browns excelled in the running game until Alex Mack suffered a broken fibula. Greco had a legitimately great year.
This past year, when John DeFilippo introduced more gap scheme elements to the offense, Greco was not as effective. Certainly, Greco was adequate for the task, but it was clear he was somewhat miscast for the role. Adequate, sure, but not all that good.
Zone scheme blocking is more reliant on guys who can win with body position, athleticism and sealing off angles whereas gap scheme blocking is more about brute force and being able to hold up in tighter quarters.
Jackson’s history has been a guy who loves to use gap scheme blocking and bully opponents up front. Greco is not going to embarrass himself, but it is difficult to imagine he will excel.
Jackson could see Greco’s versatility and value as a backup and keep him on the roster. Greco can legitimately play all 3 interior line spots and as shown in 2014, that is important.
The cost is nothing. When Greco signed his contract extension through 2017, his contract was frontloaded and in each of 2016 and 2017 Greco makes under $1 million per year. Financially speaking, Greco is a worthwhile commodity.
The Browns are so good with the cap, however, the money may not mean nearly as much as the roster spot does. It is increasingly apparent that NFL teams cannot get enough talented offensive lineman bodies on their roster and some teams, smartly, hoard them.
The Browns have a number of needs to address and they have to pick their spots on in some respects. If they opt to attack the trenches, they may well release Greco to add youth to develop on the offensive line.
If they want to attack some of the other issues on the team, which could include quarterback, running back, wide receiver, tight end, linebacker, and safety, Greco might be a Godsend and someone that Jackson and the Browns are happy they can rely on to take up a roster spot.
From Greco’s point of view, he might be ready to leave Cleveland. As much as he is a hometown guy, being from Ravenna, attending Boardman High School in Youngstown, going to the University of Toledo, and now playing for the Browns, it makes financial sense for him to want out of his contract.
With two years and less than a million in each year of his contract and being 30 now, he might have one chance at a nice contract before the end of his career. For teams that run more of a zone scheme running game, which could include the Atlanta Falcons (where Kyle Shanahan is now); Greco could warrant a lucrative short term contract, where he would make more money than he did in his entire career in Cleveland.
Greco has been a valuable [censored] on the Browns offense. Combining that with Alex Mack’s looming decision on his own contract, it is not a small issue. This is all assuming the Browns aren’t stupid enough to let Mitchell Schwartz get away in free agency.
Obviously, the Browns drafted Cameron Erving last year and they have to hope he can start at center if Mack opts to go elsewhere. It would go a long way in helping Erving in that transition if he has Joel Bitonio flanking his left but also has a talented player on his right.
The Browns did add Austin Pasztor last year and he is more suited to gap scheme blocking. After both Bitonio and Greco ended up on injured reserve, Pasztor did a nice job at left guard as a fill in starter. Certainly not to the level of Bitonio, but he was effective as a puller, acting as the lead blocker, pulling to the right on power calls, which sprung Isaiah Crowell and Duke Johnson to a few big runs at the end of last year. Pasztor might be more suited to be a backup, but he gives them another option at right guard.
I'm not sure how that changes someone's opinion of a player heading into this season. Zero reg. season games have been played between then and now.
memp...last I looked, Greco didn't get traded and is listed as the starting RG.
The worst case scenario outlined by the author did occur...
"Greco has been a valuable [censored] on the Browns offense. Combining that with Alex Mack’s looming decision on his own contract, it is not a small issue. This is all assuming the Browns aren’t stupid enough to let Mitchell Schwartz get away in free agency."
...the Browns management/owners were THAT STUPID allowing both Mack and Schwartz to leave in free agency, therefore the chances of Greco moving on dropped to about 0%.
But I do thank you for posting a story questioning the Browns management.
I'm not sure how that changes someone's opinion of a player heading into this season. Zero reg. season games have been played between then and now.
memp...last I looked, Greco didn't get traded and is listed as the starting RG.
The worst case scenario outlined by the author did occur...
"Greco has been a valuable [censored] on the Browns offense. Combining that with Alex Mack’s looming decision on his own contract, it is not a small issue. This is all assuming the Browns aren’t stupid enough to let Mitchell Schwartz get away in free agency."
...the Browns management/owners were THAT STUPID allowing both Mack and Schwartz to leave in free agency, therefore the chances of Greco moving on dropped to about 0%.
But I do thank you for posting a story questioning the Browns management.
The purpose for posting that article was to reference a similar viewpoint I had with the writer regarding John Greco playing in a zone scheme as opposed to a gap scheme. Yes, there were other components in the article (including available guards in the 2016 draft) but I assumed most posters would look to the beginning of the article discussing Greco in relation to my post than the secondary points towards the end in the article.
Yes, the writer hoped Schwartz would be retained. Yes, he suggested Pacztor as an option at RT. All of that is there too.
Furthermore, the article doesn't even say he is bad. It just discusses the comparison between the two schemes, his cost effectiveness since most of his money was paid upfront, yet speculates (which is a point I disagree with) about his longevity in Cleveland.
I don't think Greco should go anywhere and do want him as the starting RG (which is perhaps a point I should have clarified earlier). It's just about what Greco is best at and if it will effect him at all in 2016. An opinion piece...nothing more.
I think Greco is one of--if not thee--most underrated players on the team. I think he is a fine technician that does his job very well....week--in and week--out.
A few weeks ago, ed posted PFF's grade for each of the Brown's offensive starters. Greco had the highest grade other than Joe Thomas. Again, I think he is an underappreciated guy.
I think Greco is one of--if not thee--most underrated players on the team. I think he is a fine technician that does his job very well....week--in and week--out.
A few weeks ago, ed posted PFF's grade for each of the Brown's offensive starters. Greco had the highest grade other than Joe Thomas. Again, I think he is an underappreciated guy.
I'd agree. He's certainly not the problem. Possibly the best thing to come from Pat Shurmur, lol.
I was just thinking of how I wish a guy like Hank Fraley would open up for us to grab. That worked out for us like no other when the Eagles let him go (I think we got him for a 7th?)
Last year, Greco did his job pretty well. This season remains to be seen. I think he is just knocking the rust off, but I wasn't impressed against the Packers with him. Greco's not the most physically talented O-Lineman, so hopefully his injuries don't linger.
Maybe, but let's give them more than one live game before we panic
Agreed. We are in the preseason. That is what this time is for. Fixing the kinks and mistakes and growing together as a unit in preparation to the season
Maybe, but let's give them more than one live game before we panic
Agreed. We are in the preseason. That is what this time is for. Fixing the kinks and mistakes and growing together as a unit in preparation to the season
Being unpowered and manhandled isn't exactly a "kink" that can get worked out. There will definitely be improvement throughout the remainder of the preseason, but the line is something I'm definitely having to panic over.
We got him for a conditional 7th rounder. I'm not sure how better that could've turned out for us. He's a quality starter and he can play above average at multiple positions.
Greco is one of the few Pat Shurmur Era highlights that we can smile and be positive about. I clapped when I first heard we extended him five years.
We got him for a conditional 7th rounder. I'm not sure how better that could've turned out for us. He's a quality starter and he can play above average at multiple positions.
Greco is one of the few Pat Shurmur Era highlights that we can smile and be positive about. I clapped when I first heard we extended him five years.
Thanks, I thought so ... maybe one of the few good things that regime did
Being unpowered and manhandled isn't exactly a "kink" that can get worked out. There will definitely be improvement throughout the remainder of the preseason, but the line is something I'm definitely having to panic over.
Technique applies just as much as strength though. Maybe part of it is that.
I just think that it's a bit early to start panicking about this unit. Only one preseason game. Not that many reps. Just shedding some rust.
Maybe concern is warranted, but panic? I dunno. Hopefully, if it's that bad, the coaches will let the FO know and we'll start looking at bringing in a Center or RT. But at least for me, I can't get that worried after one single preseason game with just a few snaps for the 1st offense
Vers ... Settle down big fella ... Let it go with DaMan .. WHO CARES? ... U hate Trump but in a lot of ways your a lot like him ...
Just say this and then move on like a big boy instead of going all Trump on him and defending yourself and acting like a 3 year old when there's no reason for it ..
On top of that .. Is DaMan worth the time? .. Come on bro ..
And I only say this cause there's a lot of BS in this thread between you two that no one CARES ABOUT .. Take it to PM ..
I'd say SUMPTIN to him ... But unlike u, I simply ignore those that don't meet a certain posting level in a few areas ...
So please bro ... Don't take this the wrong way ... Just trying to help the board out ...
All u have to do to end this one and MOVE ON (don't be the Donald bro ... .... )
Ask RG3 how much time he spent in the hot tub after playing one quarter and dropping back I believe a total of 8 times against a DL that rushed 4 and didn't stunt at all ... It doesn't get any EASIER THAN THAT ... And does anyone know if they took their first team DL out after 1 series and the 2nd teamers WHOOPED our 1st teams asses? ...
NO ONE and I mean NO ONE can feel good about our OL ... DaMan may not be panicking and neither should U or I .. But everyone in the building should be figuring out how to keep our QB'S upright with a less than stellar OL .. They can't panick but there certainly SCARED as hell and they best be designing things to keep our QB'S healthy ..
And Vers .. U and I didn't need Friday night to know that .. The OL is in trouble and anyone not wearing brown and orange colored glasses knew it long before Friday nights debacle ...
The funny part to me Vers is the fact folks keep saying it'll get better .. WELL NO KIDDING .. Not sure it gets worse than it was Friday night ...
And once again .. This was against VANILLA and more than likely for 1 series the BACK UP DL ...
As per our "unofficial depth chart" released today and posted on CB.com - Alvin Bailey has slipped to 3rd.
Anyone think Matthews has a chance to make the team? I really like the kid, his heart and soul is in this but, he has a big hurdle to overcome given his size and weight.
As per our "unofficial depth chart" released today and posted on CB.com - Alvin Bailey has slipped to 3rd.
Anyone think Matthews has a chance to make the team? I really like the kid, his heart and soul is in this but, he has a big hurdle to overcome given his size and weight.
As per our "unofficial depth chart" released today and posted on CB.com - Alvin Bailey has slipped to 3rd.
Anyone think Matthews has a chance to make the team? I really like the kid, his heart and soul is in this but, he has a big hurdle to overcome given his size and weight.
He's our third string center and he doesn't play any other positions. I'd say he's one of the first cuts.
Please keep in mind Erving preached about his technique all offseason and supposedly worked on it and got in better shape. Granted, first preseason game/first looks and etc, but he just looks completely lacking of strength and power.
This alone, imo, is reason for panic. Not concern, panic. IMO anyway. If he's going to be our center, playing as is, it won't matter who's at RT, our qbs are going to get crushed when our center cannot provide any sort of anchoring or protection.
I hope you're right and I'm dead wrong, but Erving alone is reason to believe RGIII better not have forgotten how to scramble for his life.
My bet is that Jackson will have a pretty tight leash with players who are not performing up to snuff. If Erving stinks, he will be yanked and replaced. The problem is that his backup is Greco, so if we move Greco over the right guard becomes a problem.
Rookie offensive linemen are often bad. We have two of them in contention for playing time (Drango and Coleman).
If Erving stinks, he will be yanked and replaced. The problem is that his backup is Greco, so if we move Greco over the right guard becomes a problem.
Not if we keep Bailey and he slots in as RG.
Bailey, the guy who is currently getting beat out by two mid round rookies and was not tendered a cheap contract by the Seahawks (who have holes all along their offensive line).
Bailey, the guy who is currently getting beat out by two mid round rookies and was not tendered a cheap contract by the Seahawks (who have holes all along their offensive line).
But, beaten out as RT not as RG and as somebody posted above...he is a RG and it is foolish to play him as RT. Not arguing just pointing out that if Erving is yanked then we do have a viable option to play at RG if Greco shifts to center.
Bailey, the guy who is currently getting beat out by two mid round rookies and was not tendered a cheap contract by the Seahawks (who have holes all along their offensive line).
But, beaten out as RT not as RG and as somebody posted above...he is a RG and it is foolish to play him as RT. Not arguing just pointing out that if Erving is yanked then we do have a viable option to play at RG if Greco shifts to center.
Bailey is not a viable option. He is bad. Again, he was not tendered a contract by the Seahawks when they could have kept him for very cheap.
How many OLinemen are we going to keep on the 53 man roster?
- Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, and Pasztor are locks, - Erving, Gerhart, Drango should make the squad leaving, - Coleman and Bailey fighting for #8 (if we keep that many). - Goodbye and best wishes to the rest...
How many OLinemen are we going to keep on the 53 man roster?
- Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, and Pasztor are locks, - Erving, Gerhart, Drango should make the squad leaving, - Coleman and Bailey fighting for #8 (if we keep that many). - Goodbye and best wishes to the rest...
Drango and Coleman are locks too. Teams don't cut draft picks that quick, especially when they are competing for starting positions.
I'd say we keep Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, Erving, Coleman, Drango, and Bailey. With one of Drango or Coleman being inactive on gameday.
As per our "unofficial depth chart" released today and posted on CB.com - Alvin Bailey has slipped to 3rd.
Anyone think Matthews has a chance to make the team? I really like the kid, his heart and soul is in this but, he has a big hurdle to overcome given his size and weight.
Bailey slipping isn't a good sign ... and Matthews will have to perform well the next two games IMO
As per our "unofficial depth chart" released today and posted on CB.com - Alvin Bailey has slipped to 3rd.
Anyone think Matthews has a chance to make the team? I really like the kid, his heart and soul is in this but, he has a big hurdle to overcome given his size and weight.
Bailey slipping isn't a good sign ... and Matthews will have to perform well the next two games IMO
The only thing keeping Bailey on the roster is his versatility and experience.
How many OLinemen are we going to keep on the 53 man roster?
- Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, and Pasztor are locks, - Erving, Gerhart, Drango should make the squad leaving, - Coleman and Bailey fighting for #8 (if we keep that many). - Goodbye and best wishes to the rest...
Drango and Coleman are locks too. Teams don't cut draft picks that quick, especially when they are competing for starting positions.
I'd say we keep Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, Erving, Coleman, Drango, and Bailey. With one of Drango or Coleman being inactive on gameday.
You forgot Pasztor from your keepers.
Other than that I agree with you. I think Coleman is most likely to be inactive as Drango has been showing more versatility.
Our OL was worse last year in our first preseason game than it was this year lol. just the nature of practice limitations. Its 4 or 5 weeks before u know what you have in an offensive line.
If Erving stinks, he will be yanked and replaced. The problem is that his backup is Greco
I realise some things need to play out, but at this point is not Gerhart the backup OC? IIRC, he played with the second string against the 'Pack...
I'd imagine if Erving is bad that Greco would slide over. You could be right though.
After watching some film with RGIII at QB, I saw Erving playing pretty good. Didn't look like he was overwhelmed. I did see his man get to the QB on a play that he tied him up for a sec then the MLB came in and Erving let his guy go for some reason and blocked the MLB. He'll need to fix that, but it's hard to block two. IMO He'll be ok.
Its 4 or 5 weeks before u know what you have in an offensive line.
I don't know how long it will take, Mourg', but I do believe (my opinion of course) we will improve as the season progresses. By the start of this season, I expect them to have developed a passable level of competence and cohesiveness. Given time and good health, I feel this group can be an above average O/Line...
If Erving stinks, he will be yanked and replaced. The problem is that his backup is Greco
I realise some things need to play out, but at this point is not Gerhart the backup OC? IIRC, he played with the second string against the 'Pack...
I'd imagine if Erving is bad that Greco would slide over. You could be right though.
After watching some film with RGIII at QB, I saw Erving playing pretty good. Didn't look like he was overwhelmed. I did see his man get to the QB on a play that he tied him up for a sec then the MLB came in and Erving let his guy go for some reason and blocked the MLB. He'll need to fix that, but it's hard to block two. IMO He'll be ok.
Greco and Paz was blocking the same man, on that play. Erving may have made a bad line call but Erving letting his man go to stop the backer running free probably saved RG3's life.
It wasn't his safety, I mean c'mon... the guy went completely untouched and unblocked by the opposing oline on that play. Tank Carder should have gotten more credit.
Meder earned that because he looks meaner, more aggressive and etc than Shelton. No knocking Danny, but it is what it is. Jamie moves very well for a big guy.
It wasn't his safety, I mean c'mon... the guy went completely untouched and unblocked by the opposing oline on that play. Tank Carder should have gotten more credit.
Meder earned that because he looks meaner, more aggressive and etc than Shelton. No knocking Danny, but it is what it is. Jamie moves very well for a big guy.
He was getting reps at DE not NT. I'm guessing they weren't impressed with the run stopping on that first series.
It wasn't his safety, I mean c'mon... the guy went completely untouched and unblocked by the opposing oline on that play. Tank Carder should have gotten more credit.
Meder earned that because he looks meaner, more aggressive and etc than Shelton. No knocking Danny, but it is what it is. Jamie moves very well for a big guy.
He was getting reps at DE not NT. I'm guessing they weren't impressed with the run stopping on that first series.
Go back and rewatch. The safety, he was lined up at NT. Ogbah and Nassib lined up on opposite sides, and they were in their base 3-4. Johnson and I think it was Mingo on that play at LB.
But I would assume the second half of what you said as being true. I don't think Shelton was double teamed a single time, and getting pushed back on single one on one. Ouch...
*EDIT*
Oh you meant reps at practice at DE, I'm guessing? That I didn't know.
Well Nick Hayden was terrible. A little surprised the DE reps are going to Meder over Ogbah and Nassib but Hayden has to go in terms of starting lineup.
Well Nick Hayden was terrible. A little surprised the DE reps are going to Meder over Ogbah and Nassib but Hayden has to go in terms of starting lineup.
I usually agree w/you and steve, but I think Hayden makes the team. He is a reliable guy. I didn't concentrate on him the other night, but I saw he made one real nice play early in the game.
Oh............and Hughes has been gone for a long time.
Well Nick Hayden was terrible. A little surprised the DE reps are going to Meder over Ogbah and Nassib but Hayden has to go in terms of starting lineup.
I read the coaches were disappointed in Hayden's play and were pleased with Ogbah and Nassib.
Well Nick Hayden was terrible. A little surprised the DE reps are going to Meder over Ogbah and Nassib but Hayden has to go in terms of starting lineup.
I read the coaches were disappointed in Hayden's play and were pleased with Ogbah and Nassib.
I was pleasantly surprised by both. I questioned those two picks, but they proved me wrong .. at least for now
I usually agree w/you and steve, but I think Hayden makes the team. He is a reliable guy. I didn't concentrate on him the other night, but I saw he made one real nice play early in the game.
Oh............and Hughes has been gone for a long time.
Hayden was wearing Shelton's old number and playing left end and was getting totally blown off the ball. In that first drive where GB ran all over the Browns he was getting his butt kicked. Cooper in my opinion was the most stout of our linemen on that first drive, which is a scary tohught, even for a Cooper booster like me.
D4Life...good stuff, not only of JT, but the work of the entire offensive line. Our OTs looked like book ends in many of these video clips and the interior did a good job of holding their ground, not getting shoved backwards into the pocket.
Wow... He got tossed into the guard who fell down.
I'm not an o-line expert, but what does one clip like this actually mean? It's easy to watch this and say he's gotta go, or is it just something that he's gotta not let happen again?
I do worry that Pasztur is a solid G, but a below average RT. We'll see as tie goes on, and the season progresses ..... but I just have this feeling that he will not be starting at RT come week 7 or 8.
that's a pretty damning clip. never good to get knocked into another OL and then on your butt
It's the prime example of about the worst thing that could happen to an offensive linemen. Effecting your other fellow linemen and getting put on your butt.
that's a pretty damning clip. never good to get knocked into another OL and then on your butt
It's the prime example of about the worst thing that could happen to an offensive linemen. Effecting your other fellow linemen and getting put on your butt.
This is what happens when you are too cheap to keep your good players. Pasztur is a guard, but is being forced to play RT. The biggest difference between the two spots is footwork.
Ummmmm, I honestly think Greco got abused worse than Pasztor on the play. Fletcher Cox had Greco on skates and was walking him straight backwards. Why Erving doubled the other way is another question.
The wide 9 is tough on tackles when they have their ears pinned back. The Defensive Ends get a running start and are coming from a shallower angle than a traditional 4-3. That angle makes the Tackle turn more, so they can't very well see what the guard beside them is doing. Yes, Pasztor tripped over Greco, but trying to stop a 270 pound end instantly to a dead stop after he has time to accelerate just isn't going to happen. Just the physics of the situation make it really hard to exert force. The tackle's momentum is moving backwards at the snap, the DE's is moving forward the entire time. There is the whole an object in motion tends to stay in motion part of Newton's law of inertia.
I'm not sure why we didn't have the TEs chip more before going on routes. It's not like they were really being productive in the passing game anyways.
I'm not trying to say that Pasztor is a great tackle, but he held up pretty well most of the game, and wasn't in a good situation to begin with on this particular play.
You can't let those (good) ends get that head of steam at that angle. Traps, counters, etc will exploit them big time ... if you can have the ball w/a close game or the lead
One on one with Fletcher Cox isn't a good place to be for just about any guard.
RG3's lack of awareness re: the rush/focus on being a pocket QB (which seems to be more sit in the pocket holding the ball too long than real "pocket QBing") also doesn't help. As soon as he saw the end do the inside move and Greco getting steamrolled by Cox, he should have rolled right rather than waiting two beats longer.
Yeah, I figured that was your intent because you identified that one particular play. I was just putting that out there for the fast-reading folks who might think Greco struggled all game.
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
So what side of the fence are you guys on now?
The level of OLine play you are seeing should have been expected. All of us got to watch Pasztor and Erving play last season and should not have expected a miracle that would transform them into something they are not..Paz is a guard, not a RT..and Erving is still trying to learn to be a center.
...where are the guys the front office brought in to take over Schwartz position...the free agent from Seattle, Bailey..and where are the two rookies the front office drafted?
...yea, not resigning Schwartz was one of the good moves this front office made..if you want continue to be a loser!!!!
This is what happens when you are too cheap to keep your good players. Pasztur is a guard, but is being forced to play RT. The biggest difference between the two spots is footwork.
I agree with parts of this. It sucks that Schwartz is gone, though there are conflicting versions of events as to why that is the case. Being cheap doesn't seem to be one of the versions, but overly prideful may be one. Pasztor had way more tackle experience in the NFL than guard when he got here, but he wasn't good there for JAX. But yes his footwork was terrible especially in that he ended up basically straight up and down to where he couldn't generate an ounce of force to fight back against the bull rush. Just tipping him over at that point as he couldn't push back with his legs.
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
Not I.
I was pretty adamant that we should re-sign Schwartz and/or Mack.
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
Not I.
I was pretty adamant that we should re-sign Schwartz and/or Mack.
So were Sashi and Depo ... that's why they offered them more money than any other team.
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
Not I.
I was pretty adamant that we should re-sign Schwartz and/or Mack.
So were Sashi and Depo ... that's why they offered them more money than any other team.
And why Mack is part of the beat down on the "Harvard Boys" as Mac likes to call them, is beyond me.
There was NOTHING they could do to keep Mack,,, He clearly wanted out and he got his wish.
If you want to blame a front office for the Mack thing, you gotta go back to Farmer.. He couldn't get it done.
daman....what did the Browns offer Mack after exercised the opt out clause that the Browns agreed to, when they matched the Jaguars offer?
Clearly Mack used that clause to test the market which meant the Browns were going to have to bid for Mack's services, if they wanted him to stay in Cleveland. That's the way the business works when an elite player like Mack is allowed to reach the "auction block" aka free agency.
daman....what did the Browns offer Mack after exercised the opt out clause that the Browns agreed to, when they matched the Jaguars offer?
Clearly Mack used that clause to test the market which meant the Browns were going to have to bid for Mack's services, if they wanted him to stay in Cleveland. That's the way the business works when an elite player like Mack is allowed to reach the "auction block" aka free agency.
So, what did the Browns do to retain Mack?
Well, I wasn't in the room when the offer was made, but if memory serves me correctly, the money was higher than what he signed for, but not as much guaranteed.
But that's meaningless. The problem started when Mack was mishandled 3 years ago by Farmer. Had Farmer handled it smarter, Mack could very well be here right now.
Mack showed his true colors 3 years ago (or was it 2, damn time flies)
I thought then and I still do, that Mack wanted out and nobody could do a thing about it.
To his credit, Farmer went out and drafted another Center to replace Mack should he leave. But he drafted poorly with Erving.
I know this won't satisfy you because it doesn't blame the "Harvard Boys".
Since when is it a bad thing to have graduated from Harvard by the way?
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
Not I.
I was pretty adamant that we should re-sign Schwartz and/or Mack.
So were Sashi and Depo ... that's why they offered them more money than any other team.
And why Mack is part of the beat down on the "Harvard Boys" as Mac likes to call them, is beyond me.
There was NOTHING they could do to keep Mack,,, He clearly wanted out and he got his wish.
If you want to blame a front office for the Mack thing, you gotta go back to Farmer.. He couldn't get it done.
I recently made this same point. It was pointed out to me (I can't remember by whom) that it was Lombardi who failed to renegotiate an extension to Mack's contract, leaving Farmer to place the transition tag on Mack to keep him.
...all you guys suddenly concerned about the play of our offensive line are the same ones that were cheering the Harvard Boys and Haslam for not spending the money to resign Schwartz and Mack.
OK, against my better judgement, I'll take the bait.
Who was applauding the Browns for not re-signing Schwartz and Mack?
Not I.
I was pretty adamant that we should re-sign Schwartz and/or Mack.
So were Sashi and Depo ... that's why they offered them more money than any other team.
And why Mack is part of the beat down on the "Harvard Boys" as Mac likes to call them, is beyond me.
There was NOTHING they could do to keep Mack,,, He clearly wanted out and he got his wish.
If you want to blame a front office for the Mack thing, you gotta go back to Farmer.. He couldn't get it done.
I recently made this same point. It was pointed out to me (I can't remember by whom) that it was Lombardi who failed to renegotiate an extension to Mack's contract, leaving Farmer to place the transition tag on Mack to keep him.
I don't remember it that way, but OK,, the point is, it doesn't land on Sashi Brown and Paul Depodesta. The damage was done before they were in control. Which by the way, is all I was trying to point out.
To his credit, Farmer went out and drafted another Center to replace Mack should he leave. But he drafted poorly with Erving.
I don't know if we can say he drafted poorly with Erving. On other players he definitely whiffed (Manziel, Gilbert), but Erving was thrown into a pretty jacked up situation. He played LT and C in college and we primarily played him at G in games after having him practice everywhere and never really getting reps with the ones until injuries hit. Plus, his OL coach had been dismissed early on.
Outside of the high snaps, Erving has looked much better this year. (Not a very high bar was set, but still)
Can we try to focus this thread on the people we have here instead of going down the Schwartz/Mack rabbit hole again?
Anyone have any idea what Hue was thinking on the playcall in the play cfrs embedded? We had 3 TE's in the formation, and not a single one touched a defender as he left the line. There was no RB, so effectively there was no threat of a run.
Leaving Greco one on one with Cox and Pasztor one on one with Graham seems like a recipe for disaster in an obvious passing situation.
I wish I could see what the CB to RG3s right was doing because it definitely looked like he had a lot of space in that direction. It does make me question his processing speed both pre and post-snap or perhaps it's his overall awareness. Or maybe the CB was out there waiting.
that it was Lombardi who failed to renegotiate an extension to Mack's contract, leaving Farmer to place the transition tag on Mack to keep him.
I believe that was me. Yes, whether it was Banner or Lombardi (my money is on Banner) th past FO not being able to extend Mack, for whatever reason, one year before is eligible FA (TJ Ward falls into this too) Farmer was cornered into tagging one of them....he chose Mack. Could Farmer have not agreed to the contract Mack accepted as part of the transition tag? Sure, but we would not have had him for the last two years. Could Farmer just franchise tagged him in 2014? Sure, but we probably would have had him for only one year and tagging him for two consecutive years would have made zero financial sense.
To be fair, however, Farmer did the same thing that Banner did only w/ Schwartz and others. Thus, I'm of the same opinion now with the current FO as I was when Farmer took over in 2014. A very small window to get things done. Farmer chose to tag a FA, this new FO did not. However I think many here felt that with the players entering FA this year, tagging would not have made sense for many of them.
I'm going to ask the question again...what did Sashi do to retain Mack after Mack exercised the opt out option?
What did the Browns do?
We know what the Falcons did...they wanted Mack bad.
What did the Browns do?
They moved on. Something that others refuse to do.
It's water under the bridge. There is no way Mack was going to remain a Brown. Everyone knew this during the 2015 season that Mack was leaving in FA and he wouldn't except any deal from our FO. Everyone knew that. Besides he wasn't 100% all season long and it would have been a gamble to break the bank on him anyways. Where the heck were you?
I'm going to ask the question again...what did Sashi do to retain Mack after Mack exercised the opt out option?
What did the Browns do?
We know what the Falcons did...they wanted Mack bad.
What did the Browns do?
Sashi: Hello, Alex. This is Sashi. I know you are going to opt out of your contract but we'd really like to sit down with you and discuss any way to keep you in a Browns uniform.
Alex: Thanks but no thanks. I've been waiting to get out of town for the past two years. I want to go to a winner and it's clear this is going to be a rebuiling year(s). There probably isn't any amount of $, that will realistically be offered from you that will get me to stay. Best of luck.
Sashi: ........
See? I can make wild, one-sided speculative arguments too.
Not sure if this would under wild speculation or not?
Quote:
Alex Mack could stay with the Browns and 3 other takeaways from the NFL Combine
INDIANAPOLIS -- Browns center Alex Mack is serious enough about wanting to remain with the team that he flew to Cleveland last week to meet with Executive Vice President Sashi Brown, coach Hue Jackson and others.
Mack can opt out of his contract by March 4 and stands to hit paydirt. But his roots in Cleveland run deep, and I'm told he'd love to stay.
The Browns can make it happen by making Mack an offer he accepts by March 4. Brown indicated Thursday here that it's not out of the question.
"My estimation would be if he's going to be in Cleveland, we'll get to a deal before his opt-out date,'' Brown said in small-group interview after his podium appearance here.
Mack, one of the few centers on the market, stands to become the first $10 million a year center. Will the Browns be willing to go that high? They certainly have the cap room to do it.
If they don't, they'll likely have to rely on 2015 No. 19 overall pick Cam Erving to anchor the middle. He might not be ready.
The Browns have one of the best centers in the game, and he wants to stay. Seems like a smart way to spend some some of that cash.
"We had good discussions, both Hue and I separately with Alex about how we go about winning in Cleveland and also what his role would be in that,'' said Brown. "He also spent some time with (offensive line coach) Hal Hunter to understand what day-to-day will be like in that O-line room and at practice what will be expected of him. Alex obviously is a very talented center, been a stalwart on our offensive line for a long time. We'll see kind of what his decision ends up being.''
Failure to recognize mistakes leads to repeating the same dumb mistakes over and over.
Just look at the Browns ownership since they have returned. Fire this guy. Fire that guy. Blow up the roster each time you fire guys. Always starting over. Lose more. Do the same damn things over and over and over.
Failure to recognize mistakes leads to repeating the same dumb mistakes over and over.
Just look at the Browns ownership since they have returned. Fire this guy. Fire that guy. Blow up the roster each time you fire guys. Always starting over. Lose more. Do the same damn things over and over and over.
Actually the biggest problem with the Brown's since the return has been in the draft. This draft could get more people fired but it's too early to tell. We'll see
Just as others will ignore the fact that Mack was considering staying in Cleveland.
Yeah how I remember the reporting of everything playing out is once Schwartz's agent came back to the Browns and said "we want that deal we turned down earlier" the Browns said "no", Schwartz got all mad and signed with KC. It was reported at that time that Mack would have stayed if Schwartz stayed, but once Schwartz moved on Mack did, too.
1. Mitchell Schwartz: The Browns made Schwartz an offer shortly before the NFL Combine that was far below what he felt he could get on the open market. Sources said it was somewhere in the $7 million-a-year range. His agent, Deryk Gilmore, told the Browns that the former second-round pick would test free agency. Schwartz' goal was about $8 million to $10 million a year, taking into account the growing importance of the position against the Von Millers of the world. When Schwartz opted to test the market, the Browns assumed he was gone and turned their attention to other players.
But Gilmore told cleveland.com Thursday that Schwartz wanted to return to Cleveland and wishes he could've stayed. His fiancee is from here, he purchased a house here and he's entrenched in the community. After testing the market, which wasn't good for right tackles, Schwartz went back to the Browns in the hours before free agency and ultimately planned to accept their pre-combine offer. But they were informed by Cleveland that the offer no longer stood, at least not at $7 million a year. It may have been posturing on the Browns' part, but any hopes of reaching a deal were apparently dashed when NFL Network reported Wednesday morning that the Browns had pulled their offer.
The 'nonsense' Mitchell Schwartz endured en route to new deal The 'nonsense' Mitchell Schwartz endured en route to new deal Mitchell Schwartz wanted to return to the Browns, but the club rescinded its offer Wednesday, which was believed to be about $7.5 million a year.
Feeling Cleveland was no longer an option, Schwartz opted to sign a five-year, $33 million deal with the Chiefs, including about $15 million guaranteed. His brother, Geoff Schwartz, congratulated him on the deal after the "nonsense'' he endured during the day, presumably from the Browns. NFL Network's Mike Silver reported that the Browns didn't negotiate in good faith.
In the end, the Browns had moved on before Wednesday when Schwartz opted to test the market without engaging with their $7 million offer. For Schwartz' part, it's common for a player to shop a team's number in hopes of making more.
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Ultimately, he didn't, at least not in terms of yearly average. The $6.6 million a year average makes him the second-highest paid right tackle in the NFL, but it's short of the payday he was hoping for. The Browns now have to hope that Austin Pasztor can step in, or they need to find a replacement. Bottom line: It didn't have to come to this. The Browns were willing to pay Schwartz $7 million a year, more than he's getting from the Chiefs. His $15 million guaranteed from Kansas City is more than what the Browns were offering, but a deal could've been struck had things not gotten ugly on Wednesday. It's unfortunate for both sides.
No, I don't know that. And I never said they didn't make an attempt. Hell, I posted an article that referenced that they did make an attempt, at least on the surface.
It's a bottom line business. The guys are either here or they are not.
You seem to have a problem seeing both sides of a debate. It's like you gotta win. Hell, you asked me about mac and I admitted that he would ignore it. I also referenced the other side. That wasn't good enough for you and you felt compelled to take another cheap shot.
Mac would be happy to read that the Browns did something to try and retain Alex Mack then?
memp...vers...I knew about Mack coming to Cleveland to meet Hue and the new OL coach and about Sashi talking about wanted to getting a deal done before the opt out date...but the deal didn't get done and the rest is history.
I thought my question was specific, asking what the Browns offered Mack and what the front office did to retain Mack once he opted out.
No one wants to say it, but it doesn't look like the Browns did anything to keep Mack once he opted out.
I believe the Browns were determined to hand the center job over to Erving and were not going to bid for Mack's services if he opted out.
No, I don't know that. And I never said they didn't make an attempt. Hell, I posted an article that referenced that they did make an attempt, at least on the surface.
It's a bottom line business. The guys are either here or they are not.
You seem to have a problem seeing both sides of a debate. It's like you gotta win. Hell, you asked me about mac and I admitted that he would ignore it. I also referenced the other side. That wasn't good enough for you and you felt compelled to take another cheap shot.
Congrats!
Where do I have a problem at looking at both sides of the debate?
mac, I posted that article because a lot of people keep saying there was no way that Mack would re-sign here and the FO had no chance of retaining him. I think the article refutes those numerous claims by posters, unless they want to call Mack and the FO liars.
I did acknowledge that you probably would ignore the fact that the FO di make an attempt to keep him because you seem as stubborn as the other side.
It would be nice if we could all just really try and find the truth rather than championing some ridiculous cause.
I believe the Browns were determined to hand the center job over to Erving and were not going to bid for Mack's services if he opted out.
I have no clue if that's true with this new FO. I will say that it seemed, in drafting Erving, that the Browns knew that Mack wasn't planning on coming back and Farmer wanted his replacement. At least at the time, Erving was expected to be drafted around that area, so it certainly wasn't a surprise to me he was picked where he was, not necessarily that it was the Browns making the selection.
That said, what Farmer did and what the new FO attempted to accomplish were two different things.
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. But no, that is not how I mean it. They obviously made an attempt. It's right there in black and white. Same w/Schwartz. They had an offer on the table.
Again, I am a bottom line type of guy. They either retained them or they didn't.
Seriously, there could be a plethora of reasons. We have already discussed a couple of them, but there are others, such as:
--players sick of the Browns changing regimes again
--the constant losing
--the direction of the new FO
--players not wanting to have to go through another rebuild
I don't know the answers. I just think there are a lot of possibilities that could factor into what really happened and I have a hard time w/people stating things [on either side] as factual.
All I know is that those guys are gone and we regressed as a football team because of it.
Note: I should say that I was not in favor of re-signing Benjamin. He had a good year, but it was his only good year and it was in a contract year. I was fine w/the Browns letting him walk. LOL.......sorry, had to get that in there.
They obviously made an attempt. It's right there in black and white. Same w/Schwartz. They had an offer on the table.
Again, I am a bottom line type of guy. They either retained them or they didn't.
Seriously, there could be a plethora of reasons. We have already discussed a couple of them, but there are others, such as:
--players sick of the Browns changing regimes again
--the constant losing
--the direction of the new FO
--players not wanting to have to go through another rebuild
I don't know the answers. I just think there are a lot of possibilities that could factor into what really happened and I have a hard time w/people stating things [on either side] as factual.
All I know is that those guys are gone and we regressed as a football team because of it.
Note: I should say that I was not in favor of re-signing Benjamin. He had a good year, but it was his only good year and it was in a contract year. I was fine w/the Browns letting him walk. LOL.......sorry, had to get that in there. wink
This is progress. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
The RT position...the front office created this problem and now the entire offense will suffer with the problem, until a solution is found.
None of these solutions have worked out very well... ...FA Bailey at RT. ...drafted Colman, OT ...drafted Drango, OT/OG ...Pasztor at RT...for now, Pasztor is considered the solution at RT. Pasz was a backup OG for the Browns last season.
The OC needs to make some adjustments, giving Pasz some help by keeping someone in to double team or at least chip Pasz's man.
Hopefully one of the young guys will improve enough to take over the RT spot.
Last I looked it's not Mack's, Shwartz or gipsons job to MAKE THE BROWNS BETTER ,..
That task falls squarely on the shoulders of the HARVARD BOYS ...
Mack, Gipson ... Not sure the HB's had a shot with them .. SHWARTZ THOUGH ... Are u kidding me?? ..
He came back to accept the initial offer and the HB's decided to stick there noses in the air like those from H tend to do and tell him ... NAAAAA ... That offers no good anymore .. They tried to SAVE A FEW BUCKS and now we have a COMPLETE AND UTTER MESS ..
WE HAD NO BACK UP PLAN and they lost Shwartz cause they decided to DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND ,,
The RT mess is 100% ON THEM ... And I see no gray area there ..
Shwartz is playing on a 1-0 team and we have NO RIGHT TACKLE!!!!
and Shwartz took less from KC after the FO told him there initial offer was no longer valid .. This one is very BANNERESQUE in that they exhibited ZERO basic knowledge of the situation ....
We have no VIABLE RT OPTION ... We have 50 BILLION IN CAP SPACE ... But hey .. LETS DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND cause we got him where we want him ..
Last I looked it's not Mack's, Shwartz or gipsons job to MAKE THE BROWNS BETTER ,..
That task falls squarely on the shoulders of the HARVARD BOYS ...
Mack, Gipson ... Not sure the HB's had a shot with them .. SHWARTZ THOUGH ... Are u kidding me?? ..
He came back to accept the initial offer and the HB's decided to stick there noses in the air like those from H tend to do and tell him ... NAAAAA ... That offers no good anymore .. They tried to SAVE A FEW BUCKS and now we have a COMPLETE AND UTTER MESS ..
WE HAD NO BACK UP PLAN and they lost Shwartz cause they decided to DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND ,,
The RT mess is 100% ON THEM ... And I see no gray area there ..
Shwartz is playing on a 1-0 team and we have NO RIGHT TACKLE!!!!
and Shwartz took less from KC after the FO told him there initial offer was no longer valid .. This one is very BANNERESQUE in that they exhibited ZERO basic knowledge of the situation ....
We have no VIABLE RT OPTION ... We have 50 BILLION IN CAP SPACE ... But hey .. LETS DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND cause we got him where we want him ..
NICE JOB GUYS ..
And this has MONEYBALL WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!!!!
KC looked like a hot mess until Keenan Allen blew out his knee and the Chargers players felt their season was effectively over.
We signed Bailey and drafted two tackles. It sounds like we had 3 back up plans to Schwartz. We didn't lose because of our RT.
Most Harvard people have their noses too into books or whatever their focus is to have time to put their noses in the air.
Sadly the funniest part of your post to me was the "Now we have a complete and utter mess" part. We've had pretty much an utter mess since '99.
I have as much hope for the future now as I have had in recent memory. That's not really saying much, and there is plenty of time for it to go away.
We lost an over 30 center, a solid RT, and an oft injured safety. Could we use them this season? Most likely we'd be improved. Would we win more games this season with them? One, maybe two, but I still don't think we'd see the playoffs. We'd probably be over paying them, and have an inordinately large portion of our salary cap tied up in the OL. I'm also not sure Mitchell is the best fit in a power running scheme.
Your post is full of more holes than his, and his had plenty.
Quote:
KC looked like a hot mess until Keenan Allen blew out his knee and the Chargers players felt their season was effectively over.
What does this have to do w/the Browns?
Quote:
We signed Bailey and drafted two tackles. It sounds like we had 3 back up plans to Schwartz. We didn't lose because of our RT.
All 3 got beat out by a back-up guard.
And where did he say we lost because of our RT. I got on you about that earlier and you just did it again. Lame.
Quote:
Most Harvard people have their noses too into books or whatever their focus is to have time to put their noses in the air.
I take it you haven't talked to too many intellectuals.
Quote:
We lost an over 30 center, a solid RT, and an oft injured safety.
Mack will play for several more years.
Schwartz is better than any RT we have.
Gipson is 26 and you are exaggerating his injury history. Btw.......Jax loves him.
Quote:
ould we win more games this season with them? One, maybe two, but I still don't think we'd see the playoffs. We'd probably be over paying them, and have an inordinately large portion of our salary cap tied up in the OL.
Absurd logic. It's not just about this year. It's about keeping your good players and building on your strengths. Get rid of the garbage and keep the good players. I am so sick of hearing that dumb argument.
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I'm also not sure Mitchell is the best fit in a power running scheme.
Neither is Joe Thomas. Heck, even Bitonio isn't.
Did you see a power running scheme last week? LMAO
And why in the hell would we want to switch to that anyway? The best we had was w/Shanny and his ZBS. It utilized the strengths of our offensive linemen. God forbid we develop a scheme that fits the talent we have. Shoot............that would take creativity and good coaching. Why do that when you can just say............"we gotta do it my way!"
I'm not gonna quote because it becomes a giant mess with multiple quotings.
He mentioned Schwartz being on a 1-0 team. For 3/4s of the game they looked as inept as we did. He brought up KC, so I responded to that idea.
Re no back-up plan True they are behind a guy who was a backup guard, but that doesn't mean there was no back-up plan. They strike me as planners.
He constantly "screamed" we have NO RT. I took that to mean he thought RT was a reason we lost. I didn't notice Pasztor for most of the game, which is a good thing for a lineman.
I've talked to plenty of intellectuals and got along just fine. I suppose I could see how one would feel like they were being looked down on as the conversation went over their heads. (Possibly unnecessary, but being called dumb and lame makes me grouchy)
For someone who claims not to stereotype people, you seem to be pigeon holing "intellectuals."
Mack will play for several more years? Perhaps, but at a level commensurate with his contract?
Schwartz is better than any RT we have here? Probably, but i don't think $5.5 million per year better, and I think Coleman has the potential to be a better run blocker.
Gibson and my exaggerating his injury history? He played all 16 games once out of four years.
My logic is absurd? You don't think we'd have more wins if we had those players? You also don't think we'd have the most money tied into our O-Line if we had signed those players? Where's the absurdity?
Re the power blocking scheme Hal Hunter coached a power blocking system while he was in San Diego. Hue liked to run power with Jeremy Hill.
Hue quote-"The preseason is all about hardening our knuckles as an offense because we don't get a lot of time to bang on our own guys in practice," he said. "It'll be an opportunity to go out and play some real live football and establish our identity as a power running team with the threat of making big plays downfield." link
I saw a mess on the field, but that doesn't mean power running isn't a part of the plan and that fact may have impacted our FA decisions.
And Grimm............it's comments like this that make me dislike you as a person:
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I've talked to plenty of intellectuals and got along just fine. I suppose I could see how one would feel like they were being looked down on as the conversation went over their heads
Your insults do not make you more intelligent than I am. I do not insult your intelligence, but when you insult mine......later.
Your insults do not make you more intelligent than I am. I do not insult your intelligence, but when you insult mine......later.
You called me Lame, absurd, and dumb. I responded with a toned down response not even directed at any particular person and qualified it with the parenthesis after. If you felt the shoe fit, I'm really not that sorry about it.
You attack people and then claim complete innocence. It's why I blocked you in the first place. You make things personal and then wonder why people respond angrily.
If you could stick to football, you'd be my favorite poster. You just can't seem to do that for long.
Again mac, we really don't know if they created the problem or not.
I think they failed w/Mack, Scwhartz, and Gipson.........but, it's wrong to assign all the blame to one party.
You get that, right?
vers...the responsibility for not signing our free agents can be spread over many and over years.
Given the Browns history of re-signing free agents over the last 5yrs, I would say this problem is rooted deeply within the franchise.
The problem of keeping talent that is drafted by the Browns, developed by the Browns seems to occur regardless of who is working in the front office.
But when a new front office explains how important it is to send the right message to the locker room, to re-sign our own guys when we get to free agency, and then none of those free agents are re-signed by that front office...who is responsible?
The one common denominator that stretches across all of the different front office personnel, is the owner..the man who holds the purse strings.
vers, I'm not about to stop telling the truth about those attempting to run this franchise.
Look, I agree w/you that the FO failed to get the job done when it comes to Mack, Schwartz, and Gipson. However, there are more than likely several factors that contributed to them all leaving and none of us really know the exact reason[s] why and/or if is the same w/each guy.
Bottom line is the FO failed there, but that does not mean the FO sucks. I am hoping that they get at least 3-4 years here. I am so sick of changing regimes and constantly revamping the roster.
Bottom line is the FO failed there, but that does not mean the FO sucks. I am hoping that they get at least 3-4 years here. I am so sick of changing regimes and constantly revamping the roster.
vers...concerning the present front office management team...I've never claimed that all their moves sucked and have complimented some of the moves.
I've never called for a front office/regime change or said that The Harvard Boys should be fired.
BUT, I'm not one of those who simply dismissed the weaknesses in their resumes because they happen to have a Harvard degree.
If anything, I have tried to highlight their weaknesses, pointing out that Sash and Depo lack in "football experience" and IMO, need help.
It's my opinion that this front office needs someone with a strong background in football added to their staff.
I realize, for that to happen, some in this franchise would need to check their ego and admit that they have some weaknesses in their resumes..and be willing to add someone to their management team.
For what it's worth...I was watching an HBO show called 'Ballers' last night. One of the agents told a player in the draft (paraphrased) "It could be worse, it could be the Cleveland Clowns. You don't want anything to do with that Factory of Sadness."
As we discuss the failure of the Browns to sign/retain free agents, it should be remembered how this team is viewed by the rest of the NFL. Players generally don't want to play here if they have a choice. Top FA don't want to sign here, and many of the good players we drafted want out. Until we can change that perception, whoever is in the FO will be at a disadvantage when it comes to signing/retaining FA talent.
Yeah, it's funny how people can even come close to upholding this FO on the Schwartz deal.
The popular line is that they had "moved on" in regards to Schwartz. Moved on to what? Who is this RT they had waiting in the wings?
When Schwartz went to sign the deal they had already offered, they decided to play hard ball rather than honor their own offer. That IS pulling the deal no matter what anyone says.
People can't seem to see that they decided to clean house and re-build. Schwartz was just a foolish part of that process.
Yeah, it's funny how people can even come close to upholding this FO on the Schwartz deal.
The popular line is that they had "moved on" in regards to Schwartz. Moved on to what? Who is this RT they had waiting in the wings?
When Schwartz went to sign the deal they had already offered, they decided to play hard ball rather than honor their own offer. That IS pulling the deal no matter what anyone says.
People can't seem to see that they decided to clean house and re-build. Schwartz was just a foolish part of that process.
100% on all counts Pit ...
I keep seeing "they moved on" .. I kept thinking ... Moved on .. Moved on to what? .. To the back up RG? .. That's what we moved onto ..
We moved onto a pile of CRAP is what we moved onto ..
If that's our definition of "moving on" we better not ever move on from another player again ...
And what are we going to do if our RG goes down? .. We have no back up RG right now .. ..
VERS - Please address ALL the holes in my post ... U can't throw that out and then just ignore it ..
those two fellas we moved on from are no longer here. we should be giving the two new rookies time to grow. Schwartz is on a 1-0 team sure but they were going to be 1-0 without him so not sure what the argument is there?
those two fellas we moved on from are no longer here. we should be giving the two new rookies time to grow. Schwartz is on a 1-0 team sure but they were going to be 1-0 without him so not sure what the argument is there?
101...I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense to turn to Pasztor to fill the RT spot when you've drafted two rookies, both who played OT in college...but you have to remember, one of Hue's major concerns going into the very first game had to be protecting RG3 with the best OL we had.
Hopefully one of the rookies will improve enough to take over at RT or Pasz improves his game enough to make us forget about the rookies.
The Browns are banking on Coleman at RT. He had surgery on his knee in the offseason which caused him to miss all the OTA's. They are easing him into the practice structure due to his knee. He has shown great improvement and is solidly in the equation for being a starter at some point this season. They know Pasztor is inconsistent and were never looking at him to be the long-term answer at RT.
I sure am glad that we pulled our offer to Schwartz.
Right now we could have Greco moved to C, Pasztur at RG, and Schwartz ar RT. That would be a really good Center right OL.
Yeah, but now that Erving is at his natural position, we have no worries there. All of his problems with technique, lack of strength and being out of shape are because we had him out of position.
The biggest problem Hue is starring at is the Loss of a whole season before it even gets off the ground ! No one believes that Cody is anywhere near ready ( that watched pre season) .. Many of us were scratching our heads at the draft pick to begin with .. Hogan just got here , so what are the REAL options ?? Chance to win some games with the schedule we have ? BLEAK ..
As usual we can start evaluating the College players we believe will becoming out , NEXT YEAR !
I think what keeps me from posting more is the excuses ( form poor performance year in and out ) that shows up on the board ..
Josh was getting destroyed out there. Gotta give it to him, he was under fire but he didn't quit.
Much respect. But dang, seeing him take a few of them hits, ouch. I think, and I won't get into it - but if we had a chance to keep Mitchell, we should've.
Had we had kept Scwartz, and not to beat a dead horse (although I know I already am) would enable us to play Patzor at guard, Greco at center and I think our protection with that personnel would be x2 better.
Erving should be benched. I hope he recovers but, sadly, I'm more encouraged by them having to shift around the line in his absence. I think Erving needs another offseason to improve before I'm ready to fully say get him outta here.
BEREA, Ohio – The Browns' new-look offensive line will have a new look on Sunday.
The latest shakeup comes in the wake of starting center Cameron Erving suffering a pulmonary contusion during Sunday's loss to the Ravens. Erving spent Sunday night in the hospital and was released on Monday morning. That means that right guard John Greco, who played some at center in 2014 after then-starter Alex Mack broke his leg, will slide over one spot.
"Greco will go over and play at center, and (Alvin) Bailey will go play guard," head coach Hue Jackson said on Monday. "I feel good about that combination. Greco has done it in games before so I think we will manage that part pretty well."
If you're concerned that maybe Greco isn't ready for this, he said back in August that playing center has always been in the back of his mind.
"It's always in the back of my mind because that's been our plan the last few years and until I get told otherwise, that's still my plan," Greco said during the team's joint practices in Tampa. "If it happens, I'll be ready."
Monday, it happened.
"Here it is," Greco said, "and I'm ready mentally. This week in practice, I'll get preparation with (quarterback) Cody (Kessler), get the snap timing and everything down and we'll get calls straight. We'll have meetings all week and everything. We'll be ready to go."
Greco, who says he regularly practices snaps with the quarterbacks, said the biggest adjustment for him will be who he's communicating with throughout the game.
"Playing next to the center my whole career and playing center, I'm dialed in mentally and I know what we have to do assignment-wise with the communication," Greco said. "It's just about getting everybody lined up. Instead of communicating with the center and right tackle, I'm communicating with both guard and both tackles. I'll be ready to do that."
As for the man who will take Greco's spot at guard, Bailey came over from Seattle during the offseason. He originally was competing for the starting job at right tackle, a job that eventually went to Austin Pasztor.
"I feel like, for me personally, I felt like this was the best opportunity for me, so that's why I made the decision to come here and be here," Bailey said at the beginning of training camp, "and I was excited that Hue Jackson was the new coach and things like that."
"Alvin's an awesome player," Greco said. "I played next to him in the spring and he and I had great chemistry. I have no doubt that he's going to come in and do an unbelievable job."
Perhaps the biggest benefit for Greco and Bailey is that they aren't being thrown into these positions and this pairing in a game. Bailey was asked to play just four snaps on Sunday against Baltimore after Erving left the game.
"When you're the backup at a position, there's times -- like Alvin didn't get a lot of reps last week at guard and he stepped in there and was able to play his butt off," Greco said. "...That's the thing, when you're the backup or you're the next guy in at a different position, you have to be ready, because they don't care. You can't say, 'I didn't get any reps there.' No one cares. It's just you've got to get the job done, and everyone has that in the back of their minds."
Browns guard Joel Bitonio placed on injured reserve, 'good chance' he's out for season with midfoot sprain
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com updated October 14, 2016 at 12:29 PM LINK
BEREA, Ohio - Joel Bitonio was placed on injured reserve Friday with his midfoot sprain, and Hue Jackson said he's most likely out for the season.
"There's a good chance,'' said Jackson.
Bitonio must miss at least the next games on IR, and can't return until Dec. 18 at Buffalo for the final three games of the season.
It's not yet known if Bitonio, a third-year pro, will undergo surgery. The Browns haven't specified if the injury is of the Lisfranc variety, which can be very serious.
The Browns filled the roster spot by signing running back Dan Vitale (6-1, 239), a rookie out of Northwestern. Vitale was originally drafted by the Bucs in the sixth round, and has spent the entire season on the Buccaneers' practice squad. As a senior, he led Northwestern in receptions (33), receiving yards (355) and receiving touchdowns (four).
Bitonio is the 11th Browns player placed on IR this season, and they can designate one to return.
Candidates include Robert Griffin III, Nate Orchard and running back Glenn Winston.
Bitonio is also about the sixth starter to be lost for an extended period of time this season. The others are Desmond Bryant (torn pectoral), Griffin (fractured shoulder), Josh McCown (broken collarbone), Corey Coleman (broken hand), Orchard (ankle), and Patrick Murray (knee). The Browns also lost promising center Austin Reiter for the year to a torn ACL.
Bitonio's injury coincides with center Cam Erving returning to action Sunday in Tennessee after missing three games with a bruised lung. That moves John Greco back to guard and brings Alvin Bailey back into the starting lineup.
"He's been playing really well,'' said left Joe Thomas, who sat out Wednesday and Thursday's practice with a sore knee. "Obviously, he's one of the best guards in the NFL, in my opinion. We lose that type of guy, he's tough to replace.''
Bitonio, who missed six games last season with an ankle injury, was having a Pro Bowl-caliber season. Profootballfocus had him ranked No. 9 among all NFL guards. Bitonio finished Sunday's 33-13 loss to the Patriots despite suffering the serious sprain.
"He's one tough guy,'' said coach Hue Jackson.
According to mangameslost.com, the Browns had 22 player games missed through Week 5 this season due to players listed as "out" on the NFL's weekly injury reports. That's tied for first in the league with the Steelers and Cowboys.
The Browns are sixth in the league in total injuries, which adds games missed by those "out" players with games missed by players on IR (37). That's 59 player games missed in total.
The top 5: Chargers (98), Ravens (83), Bears (76), Saints (72, Bills (70).
I can't believe the number of players the Browns have on IR..Bitonio makes 12.
I just did some quick checking of other teams...SD has 17 on IR and the Rats have 15 on IR.
Question....has the game become that fast and that powerful that we are seeing these many injuries? I honestly do not remember people being hurt this often but, when I was a kid I didn't follow it as thoroughly as I do now and, I understand the culture back then was to play through it. But, somebody help....as the speed of the game has increased has that created the many injuries we now see (in both practice and games)?
This is why a franchise QB is so important. They raise the level of play of the entire team. It's much easier to sustain success in the face of injuries.
The Browns have instead chosen to build a team that you can insert any QB into and be successful.
It makes little to no sense. Not if they've been paying attention to the NFL for the last 25 years.
Hue's ego is his biggest strength and weakness. I hope in the end his decisions are more positive than negative. I hope the start of this season has been a humbling experience for him.
I think he's a good coach and leader, but he's never dealt with a cesspool like the Cleveland Browns. It was his ego that let him choose the Browns. It was his ego that told him he could save rg3... which lead to the passing on Carson Wentz.
These injuries further drive home how important a franchise QB is.
The NFL's equipment is not keeping pace..helmets and shoulder pads..all the pads, need to be upgraded to better protect the players.
You can only put so much padding inside a helmet before you run out of space. The NFL already knows what will work to improve the helmets..they refuse to go back to what worked in the past.
The shoulder pads need to be redesigned with a somewhat rigid cage that does not collapse when a defensive player lands on top of a shoulder, driving the opposite shoulder into the ground. The rate of shoulder and collarbone injuries might be decreased if the shoulder pads supported the energy produced when a QB (for example) is tackled and driven into the turf/ground.
The NFL has done a terrible job of upgrading the equipment used by their players and they must bear the responsibility the equipment used.
The NFL's equipment is not keeping pace..helmets and shoulder pads..all the pads, need to be upgraded to better protect the players.
You can only put so much padding inside a helmet before you run out of space. The NFL already knows what will work to improve the helmets..they refuse to go back to what worked in the past.
The shoulder pads need to be redesigned with a somewhat rigid cage that does not collapse when a defensive player lands on top of a shoulder, driving the opposite shoulder into the ground. The rate of shoulder and collarbone injuries might be decreased if the shoulder pads supported the energy produced when a QB (for example) is tackled and driven into the turf/ground.
The NFL has done a terrible job of upgrading the equipment used by their players and they must bear the responsibility the equipment used.
Equipment upgrades would be nice, but until they institute a weight limit there is only so much that can be done. If the NFL really wants to limit injury, then a weight limit is the way to go. If you hit 300 you're out. 299 you're good. After five years knock that down to 280.
cupcake training camps is part of the issue in my opinion. They don't want to practice to hard and that leaves them more fragile in higher paced games. Obviously just my opinion but I think the increase in injuries correlates with the NFL/NFLPA agreements.
That's discrimination and the big fatties really aren't the guys who inflict the most injuries.
I agree with you that it's not the size of the players that's the main problems. I think that it's more the speed of the game than the size of players. I also think that today's players' bodies are wound so tightly that there are bound to be injuries.
Also, players today want to make "Sportscenter" plays, so they sometimes try to destroy players as opposed to just making the tackle. I think that a lot of guys are also less disciplines as far as tackling, and they get out of position, and are forced to reach for tackles, instead of squaring up and making fundamentally sound tackles.
There are a lot of factors in the injury equation.
One player who wasn't listed as questionable is starting left tackle Joe Thomas, but that's probably only because the Browns didn't run the final injury report by Thomas. If they had, they would've known that Thomas has a serious ailment: He's losing his hair. Thomas' hair injury is so serious that he let his Twitter followers know that he was going to add himself to the Browns injury report. View image on Twitter View image on Twitter Follow Joe Thomas ✔ @joethomas73 BREAKING NEWS: Joe Thomas questionable with a receding hairline. 4:54 AM - 14 Oct 2016 4,954 4,954 Retweets 8,674 8,674 likes
We have a 6'1 245 lb RB that is PURE MUSCLE and runs a 4.45 forty ... Going full speed running into a 6'0 225 lb safety who runs a SLOW 4.7 after each has a 7 yard run to build up a decent head of steam ...
Nd that's just one COLLISION combo ...
These guys are to BIG, STROND and FAST .... Some of these defenders at the point of contact look like there being shot out of a canon ... People with those physical attributes were not meant to COLLIDE with each other ...
And I believe IT WAS Y-TOWN THAT SAID IT .. Oooops on the caps .. There wound so tight .. They have Ike 4% body fat .. There like rubber bands stretched to the breaking point ..
And it's been this bad for the last 3 years ... At least .. Crap I think on Mon. Night NONE of the TB DLman that start played .. And they play a 4-3 ... ONE at MOST played ...
I've had several theories on why there are more injuries in this era. I think it is a combination of things. I've been wanting to start a thread about it. It could be interesting. Anyone think that is a good idea?
The NFL's equipment is not keeping pace..helmets and shoulder pads..all the pads, need to be upgraded to better protect the players.
You can only put so much padding inside a helmet before you run out of space. The NFL already knows what will work to improve the helmets..they refuse to go back to what worked in the past.
The shoulder pads need to be redesigned with a somewhat rigid cage that does not collapse when a defensive player lands on top of a shoulder, driving the opposite shoulder into the ground. The rate of shoulder and collarbone injuries might be decreased if the shoulder pads supported the energy produced when a QB (for example) is tackled and driven into the turf/ground.
The NFL has done a terrible job of upgrading the equipment used by their players and they must bear the responsibility the equipment used.
Equipment upgrades would be nice, but until they institute a weight limit there is only so much that can be done. If the NFL really wants to limit injury, then a weight limit is the way to go. If you hit 300 you're out. 299 you're good. After five years knock that down to 280.
I've had several theories on why there are more injuries in this era. I think it is a combination of things. I've been wanting to start a thread about it. It could be interesting. Anyone think that is a good idea?
9. Cleveland Browns (74.4) If the memory of Thursday night against the Ravens is still fresh in your mind, rest assured that the Browns’ offensive line has been better than that most of the season, despite being stressed significantly by the QBs it has been protecting. Cody Kessler has shown promise as a rookie, but holds the ball too long much of the time, and is the league’s most-pressured QB largely because of his own failings, and not those of the line. That being said, this is where the grades begin to fall off and O-lines look seriously flawed. C Cameron Erving has been a major disappointment as a center, struggling to run block or pass protect, while even LT Joe Thomas has shown signs of being mortal.
And as a backup, I don't have a real problem. He has some versitility making him ok to keep another season before cutting him loose. It doesn't make much sense to eat a chunk of money to sign someone else who isn't much better.
We really need one of Drango or Colemen to turn in to a good, solid player. We need to start building rather than simply shuffling bricks around.
And as a backup, I don't have a real problem. He has some versitility making him ok to keep another season before cutting him loose. It doesn't make much sense to eat a chunk of money to sign someone else who isn't much better.
In 2017, if the Browns draft an OLineman who performs better than Cam Erving, who will have 2yrs experience...the money should not be a factor.
If the goal is to build a winning team, most teams win with the best players...after all, it's not like the Browns are up against the cap.
We really need one of Drango or Colemen to turn in to a good, solid player. We need to start building rather than simply shuffling bricks around.
I'm sure the FO was HOPING that either one of them would show the ability to be a long term answer. I don't know much about Coleman, but based on early returns, Drango doesn't look the part.
Well as Shelton is proving to be a worthy pick. Erving seems to not be living up to his Status of the 2015 draft. Just remember these guys had nothing to do with that pick. He's a first rounder and they got to give him a shot.
The only thing I have seen him do well is PULL when he does and actually hits somebody they go down. But he plays on his Heels way to much and has slow feet. Can he grow into a Center??? I don't know he might get one more season (shot) but that would be it...if he doesn't stud out in 2017 I'm sure our FO and coaches will not invest more time in him. Note he's still better than Matthews and some other favorites.
The guy that probably will get Erving released is Austin Reiter...wish I had more games to view but I was impressed. But if Reiter beats Erving out in camp...Erving is history.
I didnt like Erving before the draft L'el Collins was the guy I wanted for OL in that draft. I know several on the board was stating Erving and I was against it. Like always as soon as they become a Brown I'm backing them and want them to have all the opportunities to show their prowess.
Drango doesn't look the part? Based on what? I think him moving around the line, he has played well. He still gives up some plays but they all do. I think another year and him and Coleman will develop, lets hope. No, I like Drango.
The guy that probably will get Erving released is Austin Reiter...wish I had more games to view but I was impressed. But if Reiter beats Erving out in camp...Erving is history.
eo...I was thinking the same thing, that Reiter would be a better center...BUT, the reality is, Reiter will be recovering from ACL surgery. No way to know how he comes out of that surgery or if it will be a concern in the future. His "durability" is a question mark.
Should the Browns simply pencil Reiter in and consider the position filled? I would draft a center who had the skill set to play OG also.
Drango doesn't look the part? Based on what? I think him moving around the line, he has played well. He still gives up some plays but they all do. I think another year and him and Coleman will develop, lets hope. No, I like Drango.
did you see the cement clips of him? Just based on that
He has also moved around and is a rookie. What don't you get about that?
no I get that. I also get the early grades on him. He's rated at 66 (cannot post link because it's paid site) and dragged our OL numbers way down sine week 8. Thomas ratings even went down with Durango at LG
9. Cleveland Browns (74.4) If the memory of Thursday night against the Ravens is still fresh in your mind, rest assured that the Browns’ offensive line has been better than that most of the season, despite being stressed significantly by the QBs it has been protecting. Cody Kessler has shown promise as a rookie, but holds the ball too long much of the time, and is the league’s most-pressured QB largely because of his own failings, and not those of the line. That being said, this is where the grades begin to fall off and O-lines look seriously flawed. C Cameron Erving has been a major disappointment as a center, struggling to run block or pass protect, while even LT Joe Thomas has shown signs of being mortal.
So...the C has been a major disappointment and our only God-like OL has been mortal...and our LG is out for the year...and our RG keeps shuffling to C...and our best C lasted 3/4 of one game. This assessment is incomplete without also mentioning the lack of quality/experienced WR options (at least until Coleman gets up to speed...as a Rookie)...AND the fact the CK holds the ball too long. Other than that though...
Drango doesn't look the part? Based on what? I think him moving around the line, he has played well. He still gives up some plays but they all do. I think another year and him and Coleman will develop, lets hope. No, I like Drango.
I think Drango is one of those guys that would need the benefit of having two good to great guys to either side of him like Bitonio had. Having him next to Erving just isn't going to cut it.
Reiter looked awfully good at center, but we have to temper that with the fact that he only played 3/4 of a game. Still I don't think we'll invest a ton in the draft at Center. We'll probably roll with Reiter/Erving/Greco and a lower pick or UDFA.
Guard we are really deep at. Bitonio/Greco/Paztor and then Drango or Coleman as depth. Again we probably won't invest much here.
Tackle is where we'll need to invest. Not only the RT spot, but Joe is starting to look more human this year as well. We have to look at this like he might have two or three years left. I'd draft a RT with the hope that he can be a LT when Joe is done. I'd also like to get some more depth with a late pick.
Connor McDermitt, if he falls to one of our seconds, Dion Dawkins or Roderick Johnson may fit the bill earlier.
Julie'n Davenport is a guy that I like later in the draft.
I'm not very familiar with Davenport and McDermitt I'm not a huge Roderick Johnson fan
Some linemen available late 1st/early 2nd that are worth considering: (in no particular order)
Cam Robinson OT Alabama Ryan Ramczyk, OT, Wisconsin Quenton Nelson, G, Notre Dame Dion Dawkins, OT, Temple Dan Feeney, G, Indiana Adam Bisnowaty, OT, Pittsburgh Ethan Pocic, C/G, LSU Pat Elflein, C/G, Ohio State Mason Cole, C, Michigan
I was reading an article about the Pitt Qb. They attributed a lot of his success to how strong the Pitt oline has played this year. Bisnowaty is their top guy but I'm wondering if any of the other guys are coming out. They could make for a later round steal.
I'd draft a RT with the hope that he can be a LT when Joe is done.
That is a possibility and should not be overlooked. However, I do not know what their thinking is in this regard particularly as it pertains to Coleman and Drango. Other than that, we have decent depth across the line and have much greater need on our DLine and secondary. I would expect 3 out of the first 4 picks will/should go to the defence...
Tackle is where we'll need to invest. Not only the RT spot, but Joe is starting to look more human this year as well. We have to look at this like he might have two or three years left. I'd draft a RT with the hope that he can be a LT when Joe is done. I'd also like to get some more depth with a late pick.
I think the FO thinks they already drafted that guy in Coleman. He's been "slowed" by injury recovery and Pasztor has played well since the Miami game - the only game we truly almost won.
I think Pasztor is a fine G and is - at worst - the backup/depth T you mentioned. I think Erving becomes a backup - at best - next year and is a swing G/T (yuck). Remember that Drango was a T in college.
If we see Coleman sometime this year we should get a better gauge on him. He's behind Pasztor, which doesn't sound like a terrible thing anymore/lately.
Thomas-Bitonio-Reiter-Greco-Pastor/Coleman as starters; Coleman-Drango-Greco(C)-Erving-Bailey as backups. With the many needs on this team, I wouldn't use one of our first (5) or so picks on a T and I'm not sure I'd take an early-mid-round OL over an early-mid-round S or CB with that OL group and with our woeful D backfield.
If Coleman comes around and shows what they hoped when he was drafted, I doubt we go after a T unless one falls to us in a BPA situation. If Coleman looks to be a flop, my opinion changes drastically. Same if Bitonio can't recover from the dreaded Lisfranc surgery.
Again, I think "they" think they already did what you suggested they do...in last year's draft. If it looks like they failed on that one, I expect they will try again.
ACL injuries have a great rate of success in the NFL now a days. That injury is no longer career ending. I do agree he might have to have 6 more months to mend properly...I cannot remember ACL injuries from OL recently to draw any conclusions. I can expect him to be wearing a brace.
To an other post...Drango, I like him and think he is the best OL we drafted this year. that kid Shon Coleman...just haven't seen him to assess, on paper he should have been the best.
Talking of Centers I would like to see Drango train for that position. He's smart and its not a tough transition if you work on it all off season.
Problem is OL gets effected the most with the PANZY workout crap from the CBA...there is no statistics to show this woosy work ethic prevents injuries from happening!
ON the stud RT looking for them to transition to LT with a seemless passing of the baton...been saying that for 2 draft now. Still is a sound plan. Similar to how Dallas drafted the young kid from USC and had him start at RT...struggle his first 6 games then started to stud out...switching to LT the next season and Flip flopped Free to the RT position.
But sometimes O Coaches minimize the investments needed to build an OL. Took Jones how many years to figure it out in Dallas. LT forgot. Center from Wisc. then OG from Notre Dame sealed what is considered by far the best OL in football. Draft a kid like Zeke and he studs out. Did you all see the blocking assignments executed on that winning run by Zeke vs. Steelers just a thing of beauty...all Zeke did was run a straight line forward the timing everything brought a tear to this old OL coach... lol
Pazstor is a guard , and did a nice job filling in at left guard last season .. Speaking on that mater ; How many games has Bitonio play in three seasons?
Paztor is a backup who has been forced into starting due to injuries. I do believe he has made some improvement this year, but he is still backup quality OLine talent.
We need to spend big on OL in the next draft, our line is a suckfest. I can't wait to part ways with Cam Erving. He spent the whole game against the Steelers with his mouth gaped open sucking for air, unless that was just his "I'm lost" or stupid face expression.
I have tried not to get down this season but it's finally wearing on me.
I posted on another thread that it seems to come down to the o-line and another poster said no it doesn't. I don't care if someone disagrees with me I will respect another opinion but I really believe it begins with the O-line. We can't run, pass and our qb's are getting killed. What more is there to see?
Paztor is a backup who has been forced into starting due to injuries. I do believe he has made some improvement this year, but he is still backup quality OLine talent.
Pasztur started the year at RT because we allowed Schwartz to leave, and we had no one else ready to go there. I don't think that there was an injury that forced him into the lineup.
If I remember correctly, they tried Bailey there first, then Drango, then Pazstor. I don't think Coleman was ever considered because he was still not all the way back from his collegiate injury.
If I remember correctly, they tried Bailey there first, then Drango, then Pazstor. I don't think Coleman was ever considered because he was still not all the way back from his collegiate injury.
Yeah I think that's the order.
It's been an issue for basically all of 18 years now ... the right side just isn't good. Schwartz was good enough and Mack helped to hide a lot as well. Now we're just seeing the sieve open
I think Schwartz was good. He struggled in year two and we were able to give him help at times because Joe plays on an island, but he was a good player. Not keeping him and Mack was a huge fail.
Joe Thomas on Browns letting top linemen go: 'You've got to lie in the bed you've made'
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com November 20, 2016 at 8:44 PM link
CLEVELAND, Ohio - Browns future Hall-of-Fame left tackle Joe Thomas watched his good friends Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz walk in free agency in the offseason.
Now, he's watching Cody Kessler and Josh McCown get pummeled game after game, and his quarterbacks getting hurt on a regular basis.
Kessler and McCown were sacked four times each in Sunday's 24-9 loss to the Steelers, and Kessler left the game with his second concussion in eight starts. In his four years at USC, he never had a concussion.
"Well, we lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position,'' said Thomas. "But that was our strategy in the offseason. That's what we decided to do. You've got to lie in the bed that you've made, and I don't make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that's not something that I can concern myself with.
"For me, it's all about trying to do my job to the best of my ability and do everything I can to help our team win, and the guys that are making the personnel decisions, they're the experts on that, so they're the ones that have to make those decisions and look at those decisions when they're made."
In addition to linemen giving up sacks, running back Duke Johnson was overmatched trying to pick up the blitz, and tight end Randall Telfer gave up one of the sacks.
"It's the line getting on the guys we want to be on,'' Thomas said. "It's the running backs knowing who we're blocking and being on their right guys. It's the quarterbacks understanding how we're blocking, and readjusting the protection if it needs to be readjusted. We haven't been on the same page enough and of course it comes down to just winning the one-on-one matchups."
The Steelers overpowered the Browns largely with their inside linebackers Ryan Shazier and Lawrence Timmons, who combined on the play that resulted in Kessler's concussion. The Browns have also been hurt tremendously by the loss of premier left guard Joel Bitonio to foot surgery for the season. Rookie Spencer Drango is replacing him, and it's nowhere near the same.
"They've got four big guys that are good at rushing the passer, two outside 'backers, two inside guys and then their inside linebackers rush the passer a lot better than most inside guys,'' said Thomas. "When you've got five offensive linemen, you try to block their five best rushers, but with two inside guys that are really good like that you're always going to have sort of a mismatch a little bit when you have a running back blocking one of those guys and then trying to get the communication worked out a lot of times.
"Sometimes it's difficult to try to make sure that you are on the best matchups and to get the best possible guys blocking the best possible guys."
Is there anything that can be done to better protect QBs this year?
"We've just got to block better and we've got to find a better solution for keeping them upright,'' he said. "There's not any rocket science to it. It's trying to get the best hat on the best hat, winning the one-on-one matchup and trying to make sure that we're all on the same page with who's blocking who and where the quarterback's going to be."
It didn't help that the Browns couldn't run the ball and rushed only 13 times against 41 passes. Isaiah Crowell gained 10 yards on his 8 carries and was dropped for losses as many times as he went forward.
Jackson acknowledged how hard it is to watch his QBs gets creamed.
"It's tough. It is tough,'' he said. "I think we all know what we are doing and what we signed up for. It is football and you are going to get some of those hits. It is part of it. We will move forward."
He also offered no solution for how it can get better.
"I don't think it's from a lack of trying,'' he said. "Our guys are trying. I have to put them in better situations. It all starts and stems from the top. It starts with me so I have to put these guys in better situations. Today, I just thought as you looked out there as things were unfolding and happening, their team made more plays than we did.
"I don't want this group to go backwards any more than what we already have. I have to regroup with the guys and regroup with our coaches, and we have to keep pressing forward. We're not going to let the record and where we are dictate how we are feeling about this because the guys have done great.
"I will definitely plead to them, and I'm sure they will respond because that's the kind of group that they have been and that's who they are. They will walk back in here again on Wednesday when we get ready. We will get ready for New York, and they will come out here ready to play."
"It's the line getting on the guys we want to be on,'' Thomas said. "It's the running backs knowing who we're blocking and being on their right guys. It's the quarterbacks understanding how we're blocking, and readjusting the protection if it needs to be readjusted. We haven't been on the same page enough and of course it comes down to just winning the one-on-one matchups."
I think this was a big issue yesterday. Kessler did not audible out of plays when it was apparent that we didn't have the right alignment to block all their guys. He didn't make hot reads or sight adjustments. The backs misread things. And of course, Erving made some terrible line calls.
Quote:
"Well, we lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position,'' said Thomas. "But that was our strategy in the offseason. That's what we decided to do. You've got to lie in the bed that you've made, and I don't make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that's not something that I can concern myself with.
This has been a point of contention for some of us for a long time. We were told that we "only won 3 games w/those guys, so how good can they be?" Well, now you have your answer.
"Well, we lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position,'' said Thomas. "But that was our strategy in the offseason. That's what we decided to do. You've got to lie in the bed that you've made, and I don't make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that's not something that I can concern myself with.
I'm glad to hear Thomas speak up.
If Joe keeps telling the truth about the Browns management, he will get traded...how dare a player point the finger at the front office and say, this was their plan.
"Well, we lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position,'' said Thomas. "But that was our strategy in the offseason. That's what we decided to do. You've got to lie in the bed that you've made, and I don't make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that's not something that I can concern myself with.
I'm glad to hear Thomas speak up.
If Joe keeps telling the truth about the Browns management, he will get traded...how dare a player point the finger at the front office and say, this was their plan.
Your new dawgtalkers name is La Macforna.
Stir that pot stir. Hope you take a shower afterward.
CLEVELAND: Browns rookie quarterback Cody Kessler has started just eight NFL games, and he has already suffered two concussions. “You just never want that for anybody and especially a guy in his first year,” veteran quarterback Josh McCown said after Sunday’s 24-9 loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers at FirstEnergy Stadium. It’s a sobering fact about Kessler, and it’s why the Browns (0-11) are expected to change starting quarterbacks for the fifth time this season when they host the New York Giants (7-3) on Sunday. McCown will probably start because coach Hue Jackson spoke as if quarterback Robert Griffin III wouldn’t be ready in time as he attempts to return from injury. Nine-time Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas said the play that sidelined Kessler shouldn’t be permitted in the NFL. The Browns faced first-and-10 at their 25 with three seconds left in the third quarter when Kessler took a snap and was yanked down by inside linebacker Ryan Shazier a split-second after he threw a pass. As Shazier pulled Kessler, inside linebacker Lawrence Timmons launched and appeared to strike Kessler in the helmet with his right shoulder pad. “I just kind of caught the end of the play when I was looking up on the replay and to me when you have a quarterback scrambling, running out of the pocket and they get targeted with a shoulder or a forearm to the head, I know in college football they throw you out for something like that,” Thomas said. “Hopefully the legislation in the NFL is trying to eliminate that type of play ’cause quarterbacks get hurt when they’re getting hit like that, and that’s something that you don’t want to see in the game.” Kessler immediately left the game and was diagnosed with a concussion while McCown filled in. He suffered his first concussion of the season Oct. 23 against the Cincinnati Bengals and missed one game. Timmons insisted he whiffed instead of drilling Kessler in the helmet. If true, Kessler could have suffered the concussion when his head hit the ground. “I did miss him,’’ Timmons told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “He saw me coming as [Shazier] was pulling him down. I went right over top of him.” Thomas didn’t see it that way, though he stopped short of calling the play dirty. “Certainly hitting a quarterback late after he’s thrown the ball when he’s going down with a shoulder or a forearm to the head is not something that you want to see in the game ’cause if we did that to Big Ben [Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger], they’d be pretty upset,” Thomas said. Jackson said Kessler might be shut down for an extended period because he’s had two concussions in 29 days. “It is a possibility,” Jackson conceded. “We will see. I am definitely going to talk to our medical staff because this is about a young man’s career and future, so we have to do the right thing.” Griffin worked out on the field prior to Sunday’s game just like he did Nov. 10 before the Browns faced the Baltimore Ravens. He ran several sprints and threw passes. On Friday, Jackson said Griffin would return to practice this week after missing 10 games with a fractured coracoid bone in his left shoulder. Jackson also said Griffin needs to pass one more medical test to be cleared for contact. But on Sunday, Jackson sounded as if he’ll turn to McCown against the Giants because he doesn’t expect Griffin to be ready. “I don’t know much about Robert right now. We will just see where that is,” Jackson said. “But we will see where Cody is, and if not, obviously Josh is going to have to go out there and play, and he will go out there and I will expect Josh to play well and he will.” The Steelers (5-5) had eight sacks and 14 quarterback hits, with Kessler and McCown taking four sacks apiece. McCown was fortunate to walk away from the game healthy after absorbing several shots. As he scrambled late in the fourth quarter, defensive end Stephon Tuitt, who had a team-high 2.5 sacks, decleated him with a blindside hit. McCown’s chinstrap unbuckled and left a small cut on his face. The carnage made wide receiver Terrelle Pryor furious. “[Our quarterbacks] can’t keep getting hit like that, and if I want to voice my opinion, I’m going to voice my opinion now because it’s going on too much,” Pryor said. “I don’t care if you’ve got to hold these dudes. Hold them and take the damn penalty and stop getting our quarterbacks hit. I hate that. “I don’t think somebody would take $10 million to sit back there and take those hits. Come on. Some of those hits Josh took? After one of those, I came over, and his chinstrap was like this over his neck. He has a cut [on his face]. It’s bullcrap. We can’t keep doing this, and we can’t keep getting our guys hit. It’s as simple as that.” Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com.
"McCown will probably start because coach Hue Jackson spoke as if quarterback Robert Griffin III wouldn’t be ready in time as he attempts to return from injury."
Are you kidding me, RGIII is begging Hue to NOT return with that OL, they'll put out of the NFL
Browns claim OL Matt McCants; place OL John Greco on IR
Posted 18 minutes ago
Clevelandbrowns.com@BrownsFacebook
Veteran guard injured vs. Giants
The Cleveland Browns have claimed OL Matt McCants via waivers from Oakland. In addition, the team placed OL John Greco (foot) on injured reserve.
McCants is 6-5, 309-pounds and is officially in his fourth season out of Alabama-Birmingham. Originally selected by the Giants in the sixth round of the 2012 draft, he has appeared in 28 career games with three starts. He has spent the past four seasons with the Raiders. McCants is a native of Mobile, Ala.
Greco opened all 12 games this season with starts at right guard (10) and center (two). He didn’t miss an offensive snap until sustaining a foot injury yesterday in the third quarter against the Giants. Greco has appeared in 111 career games with 70 career starts. He joined the Browns via trade prior to the start of the 2011 season.
Yeah, Greco's loss created a gigantic hole. All of a sudden, Erving is going to have to actually handle the Center position without any help. I firmly believe that Greco had helped him a lot, and that's why Greco was able to slide over without the OL really missing a beat.
Meanwhile, Mitchell Schwartz is playing for the 8 and 3 Chiefs and Mack for the division leading Falcons, who arguably have the best offense in the NFL.
Really Vers.? This is not the same FO. Farmer is no longer here. Mack did not want to be here, thats why he made the deal with the Bucs. So we could not keep him here with a tag and he wasn't going to sign a contract with us. Of course your smart enough to know this, quit pulling a mac
I also think Mack wanted out, wanted to go to a team with a chance to win. I don't blame the current FO for Mack leaving, although I think they screwed up the Schwartz situation. If it's true they pulled the offer when Schwartz was willing to sign, that wasn't very smart.
Because if you valued him enough as a player to make the offer, then keep it on the table - if they took it personally and let it interfere with the football team, that's not good.
Just my opinion but I think he took a look at the team - esp. the QB situation but more than that - and said: "I'm out, it's gonna be years before we might win and I'm getting old." Again, IMO.
Like I said..........if the plan is to draft good players and re-sign them...........it's a fail if you can't keep your good players when their contracts expire.
All I know is that we are a worse team w/out both of those guys.
FO didn't let Mack walk. Mack walked because Farmer insulted him multiple times and drafted his replacement after he tagged Mack. FO was just playing the hand they were dealt. But they seriously went into #trusttheprocess mode when they let Schwartz walk.
We have talked about it quite a bit, but we disagree on things. Big deal.
And you sure talk a lot about how wrong other posters are for someone who was saying the things you did before the season.
sorry boss, lol not sure how my 18 word post is considered talking a lot. please enlighten me...what was I saying before the season started? thank you in advance for your polite and respectful reply.
LOL.........never mind. You were spot on about everything. Cam, Hue being able to get us several more wins. Guys like Mack, Schwartz, Gipson, and Benji being the problem. Etc, etc.
before the season started, I stated I thought we would get 5 or 6 wins...yup sure did...that didnt turn out how I thought in the least. I still think with no injuries an RGIII playing the whole season that we would have won that many. now as far as Gipson and company goes. as I stated before Scwartz is the only ? mark I had with those guys leaving. Benji I thought we had him covered and I think almost every WR was under 6'. we needed to get bigger and we did. and now out of now where Taylor is the new Belle of the ball that we "let" walk. with his 303 yards this year with 75 of those coming in one game...I think some on here are dying to find some reason to hate on the FO here....
oh and before I forget. I never said those guys were a problem. I said that if they didn't want to be here I wouldn't cry about when they left...or something to that effect.
The FO may have let him walk, but Mack also chose to leave.
The teams that Mack and Schwartz went to may be doing well, but they also didn't go to teams trying to implement new systems. They are further along in their development (WAY further along, sadly). New systems, New players, new coaches, new "attitude"; there were and are a lot more kinks to work out here.
Constant turn over has led to a mish mash of leftovers that weren't that great to begin with. Starting from scratch takes time.
Why would Mack and Schwartz have wanted to stay? What did we really have to sell to them? The same old song and dance. Ground zero, again. Hue's a player's coach, but his track record as a HC isn't very long or that illustrious.
Have to build something now. Can we actually build up a few years in a row instead of tearing down and starting over? Hopefully the players we drafted will get/are getting better.
I did see some signs of growth in Nassib in his run Defense. Not sure how much was from the state of the Giants OL, but he seemed to stack and shed better.
I also think Mack wanted out, wanted to go to a team with a chance to win. I don't blame the current FO for Mack leaving, although I think they screwed up the Schwartz situation. If it's true they pulled the offer when Schwartz was willing to sign, that wasn't very smart.
Because if you valued him enough as a player to make the offer, then keep it on the table - if they took it personally and let it interfere with the football team, that's not good.
Do you or anyone think the Browns would have been a playoff team had they kept Schwartz? Mack?
Exactly the Browns are NOT a better team without them BUT they would not be a playoff team with them. So at this point of a restore why over pay if it won't pay big dividends?
Is the team better off with the NUMBER ONE overall pick or number 3 or 4 had they kept them?
Exactly the Browns are NOT a better team without them BUT they would not be a playoff team with them. So at this point of a restore why over pay if it won't pay big dividends?
Is the team better off with the NUMBER ONE overall pick or number 3 or 4 had they kept them?
I think we are better off where we are now. that being said. We did lead the league in rushing to kick the season off without them...we did not do that with them.
oh yea no to the over paying for no return.
we would be better with them? meh maybe...but our guys now helped our run game go to the top for a few weeks...that has to mean something
Why would Mack and Schwartz have wanted to stay? What did we really have to sell to them? The same old song and dance.
Why would anyone want to play for the Browns? Hard to blame Mack for wanting to get the hell away from Jimmy Haslam and the franchise he totally screwed up. I don't blame Mack for wanting to leave and I don't believe the Browns wanted to pay him because they judged the center situation and were convinced, they had the center position covered with Cam Erving.
BUT, this front office had one of the better RTs in the NFL...AND HE WANTED TO BE HERE...and the Harvard boys or their mentally imbalanced owner, pulled the contract and booted Schwartz to the curb.
To replace Schwartz, the Boys signed free agent OT/OG Alvin Bailey and drafted Shon Colman, OT, in the middle of the 3rd round. They did all this to replace one man who had never missed "a start" from the time he was a rookie with the Browns.
Bailey, could not even beat out Austin Pasztor for the OT job and Shon Coleman didn't recover from knee surgery (Jan 2016)quickly enough to be a factor. Also, Bailey, who obviously met the high character standards established by the Boys...after getting his first start on Sep 26, was busted early Monday morning Sep 26, charged with a dui, fleeing police, possession of drugs (marijuana).
Great judgement by the Browns front office, kicking Schwartz to the curb. Just another example of the Boys misjudgements and a reflection of the low priority they place of the offensive line.
I wouldn't complain if you kept it in that thread. You have been bumping it up for 2 months, saying the same things over and over and haven't complained yet.
You want to talk about the FO, go talk to yourself in your thread.
Why would Mack and Schwartz have wanted to stay? What did we really have to sell to them? The same old song and dance.
Why would anyone want to play for the Browns? Hard to blame Mack for wanting to get the hell away from Jimmy Haslam and the franchise he totally screwed up. I don't blame Mack for wanting to leave and I don't believe the Browns wanted to pay him because they judged the center situation and were convinced, they had the center position covered with Cam Erving.
BUT, this front office had one of the better RTs in the NFL...AND HE WANTED TO BE HERE...and the Harvard boys or their mentally imbalanced owner, pulled the contract and booted Schwartz to the curb.
To replace Schwartz, the Boys signed free agent OT/OG Alvin Bailey and drafted Shon Colman, OT, in the middle of the 3rd round. They did all this to replace one man who had never missed "a start" from the time he was a rookie with the Browns.
Bailey, could not even beat out Austin Pasztor for the OT job and Shon Coleman didn't recover from knee surgery (Jan 2016)quickly enough to be a factor. Also, Bailey, who obviously met the high character standards established by the Boys...after getting his first start on Sep 26, was busted early Monday morning Sep 26, charged with a dui, fleeing police, possession of drugs (marijuana).
Great judgement by the Browns front office, kicking Schwartz to the curb. Just another example of the Boys misjudgements and a reflection of the low priority they place of the offensive line.
Did Schwartz want to be here? Or did he want to get paid?
Why would he want to be here?
His friendships with some of the players may have made it bearable, but I think he thought he had the team over a barrel so to speak (the results indicate he may have been right) and was seeing dollar signs.
He can still keep in touch with JT, Greco, and any other of our players he cared for while playing somewhere else.
I liked Schwartz, and he'd help us, but his asking price was prohibitive and apparently not justified by the market.
I don't think the FO has a "low" priority on OL. Just lower than it has on playmakers. They wanted him back at a number within the framework of "the plan".
Not presenting this as fact, I'm just presenting an opinion while trying to connect the dots.
Our Draft seemed to prioritize splash plays at the top. TDs, sacks, and TFLs. We did need (and lack) those things.
Hue said Cooper is an option at RG. I thought we were just keeping him until after the season where we'd get a comp pick when he signed elsewhwere. We'll see
Wouldn't the next question be: Why would he want out?
Well that one is easy...we just fired everyone bringing in his 4th REGIME change in a short time with us. Right after the firings he was asked if he would think of signing here.
He didn't give the usually well we will see - I would like to continue my career here I will leave that up to my Agents to negotiate....he made absolutely no statement that led anyone to believe there was a shot at him staying here.
Oh before he signed he thought about leaving his bro JoeT but not the Browns.
jmho...Sashi and Crew had ummm 0% chance of signing him. Zero, Zilch, None, Nada this is not opinion but common sense.
Schwartz's new wife is from the Cleveland area, and he has long said that he loved the area, and the team. I think (and this is only my opinion, but it is based on what I have read) that he wanted to come back, but also wanted to get an idea of what he might get on the open market. When he saw his value, he immediately wanted to come back to the Browns, and they slammed the door in his face so they could sign Bailey a few days later. not signing Schwartz was probably the biggest mistake this front office made.
Schwartz's new wife is from the Cleveland area, and he has long said that he loved the area, and the team. I think (and this is only my opinion, but it is based on what I have read) that he wanted to come back, but also wanted to get an idea of what he might get on the open market. When he saw his value, he immediately wanted to come back to the Browns, and they slammed the door in his face so they could sign Bailey a few days later. not signing Schwartz was probably the biggest mistake this front office made.
I'm not a fan of the slammed the door in his face description. They came back with an offer in line with the market. If he truly loved Cleveland, why didn't he take it? If he wanted back, I'm sure they could have worked out the numbers similar to what he got in KC.
The words say one thing, the actions don't necessarily align. Maybe he felt disrespected, but since when is paying someone the going rate disrespectful? We have/had a whole team to build.
One of Sashi's selling points was being a consensus builder, which leads me to question the characterization of the Browns side of things. Negotiating (re-negotiating) doesn't constitute slamming the door to most reasonable people (The "reasonable person test" is a common thread through most areas of law, I'm not trying to call you unreasonable)
I wish we'd got him signed to a reasonable deal, but it takes two.
When moneyballers found out the market was lower than the contract they had offered Schwartz, they got dirty, pulling the offer thinking Schwartz would not sign with anyone else.
The Chiefs were happy to have Schwartz and the Browns have signed a free agent and drafted an OT to replace Schwartz and neither is starting. The Browns are relying on maybe the worst RT in the NFL, Pasztor.
Schwartz turned down Cleveland's offer because he thought he could get $8 mill per year on the open market and when he started negotiations with KC he found out otherwise so he went back to the Browns but the Browns pulled the offer because they thought Schwartz was just using them to drive up KC's offer.
People keep putting all the blame on the players. It's much easier to believe that each player was a complete jerk and the FO was an innocent victim in this scenario.
I try to judge each move based on its own merits. I like some of the things they have done and disliked others.
I argue more for the ones I disliked because the sheer volume of posts that excuse each of their bad moves completely dwarfs the negative comments.........excluding mac, of course. LOL
But mac, why would the Browns want to keep a player when they knew they couldn't make the playoffs this year?
Our FO is so smart. They understand letting talented players go when you can't make the playoffs is the way to build the team.
I'm not sure if that is supposed to be sarcasm, but I think everyone knows they wanted Schwartz back.
There are the haves and the have nots. Players are willing to go to contenders for less. We're not a contender right now. Overpaying for players is a good way to stay at the bottom.
Can Hal Hunter develop OL? ...We'll see how it goes. I think there is still some feeling each other out going on amongst the offensive coaching staff.
The ONLY TIME he showed interest in staying here was while they were negotiating with OTHER TEAMS. I'm talking right after the firing. He was asked and it was an easy read he was not going to stay.
I think we need at least one addition to the OL. I feel Pazstor (sp) is probably a better fit at OG. Irving has improved as the season wears on. A legit OT is what we need.
Question from me - I have heard nothing on Coleman (S)? May have missed that but what's the deal? I know he had an injury but Drango has come in and not done too bad a job as a 5th round rookie.
I agree with a lot of the folk on here - our DBs need to be targeted. If we went CB and S with 2 of the 1st 4 picks, I'd be quite happy although I hope we start going BPA and not chasing positional need with the picks in Rounds 1 and 2, especially if we stick at #1.
I'm hoping that the year 1 to 2 leap will really help the DL and LBs we drafted last year. If only 1 or 2 could do a "Shelton", it would help the secondary.
Shelton has been very good this year. Really impressive strides made, he deserves credit for that.
The Cleveland Browns have signed OL Anthony Fabiano to their active roster from the practice squad.
In addition, the team signed OL Zach Sterup to the practice squad. OL Dan France was signed to Carolina’s active roster off the Browns’ practice squad.
Fabiano is a 6-3, 303 pound rookie out of Harvard. Originally signed by Baltimore as an undrafted free agent, he was waived on Aug. 29 and has spent 11 weeks on the Browns’ practice squad. He was active but did not play against New England on Oct. 9. A native of Wakefield, Mass., Fabiano graduated from Wakefield High School.
Sterup is a 6-9, 318 pound rookie out of Nebraska. Originally signed by Kansas City as an undrafted free agent, he has spent time on the Chiefs and Jets practice squads. A native of Hastings, Ill., Sterup graduated from Hastings St. Cecilia High School.
Jonathan Cooper hopes to rewrite story of his career starting this week
By Dan Labbe, cleveland.com Email the author | Follow on Twitter on December 05, 2016 at 8:30 PM, updated December 05, 2016 at 8:40 PM
BEREA, Ohio -- Jonathan Cooper has followed a convoluted path to his shot with the Browns. The upside is that, to this point, it's happened early in his career and his life.
"Fortunately, I'm not married. I don't have kids," Cooper said on Monday. "I can make the transition. I can't even imagine having family and having to make this transition."
It's been a year of instability for the former first round pick, selected No. 7 overall by the Arizona Cardinals in 2013 out of North Carolina. He broke his leg and was placed on injured reserve before his rookie season even officially began and, from there, his career hasn't exactly followed the arc of a Top 10 pick.
Follow along: He spent his first three seasons with the Cardinals, making just 11 starts, was traded to the Patriots last March, was waived by the Patriots the day before they played the Browns this season and claimed off of waivers by the Browns the day after that game.
Now he's likely the next man up for the Browns this coming Sunday when they take on the Bengals. It appears the 6-foot-2, 302 pound Cooper will fill in at right guard for John Greco, who was placed on injured reserve last week with a foot injury.
"It's a great opportunity," Cooper said. "It's been a while coming and this whole season has been an interesting road in entirety and one I'll never forget, but to be presented with this opportunity is definitely something that I don't take for granted and I'm confident that I'll make the most of it."
Offensive line coach Hal Hunter said on Tuesday that, while Alvin Bailey, who had previously replaced Greco, will get an opportunity, it's going to be Cooper first.
"We have had a chance to work with him, and I am excited," Hunter said. "He is athletic. He is tough. He is smart. Like I talked to him today about, what a great opportunity. You get a four-week window to really build your resume and really prove that this is where you belong to be so I am excited for him because one man's misfortune creates another man's opportunity."
"That is what he is here for to get another opportunity and we will see if he will go out there and do what he is capable of doing," head coach Hue Jackson said on Monday. "That is what this league is about -- opportunity, a chance, and when you get one you have to make the most of it."
Cooper, of course, despite not living up to his first-round billing, has had the opportunity to be a part of some successful teams. His three seasons in Arizona all came with at least ten wins, two of which saw playoff appearances. He appeared in two playoff games. The Patriots were 3-1 before they waived him. Now he's on a winless team.
He said that he's had friends and family ask him about the sense he gets from being around an 0-12 team. He said that he tells them all the same thing.
"This is one of the hardest-working group of guys I've ever been around," Cooper said. "They come in day in, day out, after some losses it gets a little tough, but I know they're going to come in the next day and still put in the work and continue to stick together."
He said a lot of guys would be divided at this point with a winless record, but he hasn't seen it here.
"It's definitely not an atmosphere where everybody's dragging around, sad, puppy-dog faced," he said. "No. We're working hard and we want to win."
Besides, if this last year has taught Cooper anything, it's dealing with being part of unforeseen circumstances.
"I know that this season, as long as it's taken to get to this point, I had no idea how it would work out, so that's mainly why I said I won't take it for granted, because I didn't foresee it."
Nor can he foresee how the rest of this season or his career will play out. Right now, it's about taking advantage of an opportunity.
"Now, I am looking forward, feeling good, healthy and aiming to kind of rewrite the story or let it play out how I end up, let it go."
Didn't pan out, so little benefit to pinning blame in the incident. But there is a third leg to include on this stool. One side blames FO; one side blames player(s); but if he was trying to use us and bend us over, I am placing a lot of blame on agents. Trying to manipulate bargaining is their job. But in this case, if there was a "slammed door" as stated, I think it might be aimed at the agents, and not handled well. Got caught being too cute and shameless and it blew up and fell through. FO needs to get its chops as well. I am OK with it.
The Cleveland Browns made a pair of roster moves on Monday, signing Anthony Fabiano to the active roster and Zach Sterup to the practice squad.
The Cleveland Browns continued the offensive line churn on Monday, signing offensive lineman Anthony Fabiano to the active roster from the team’s practice squad.
In a related move, the Browns signed offensive lineman Zach Sterup to the practice squad after seeing the Carolina Panthers sign offensive lineman Dan France off of Cleveland’s practice squad.
The moves were announced on the team’s website.
The 6-foot-3 and 303-pound Fabiano originally signed with the Baltimore Ravens as a free agent out of Harvard. (So no surprise how the Browns heard about him.) A versatile player, he made 29 starts for the Crimson along the offensive line, with 11 starts at left tackle, 10 at right guard, seven at left guard and one at right tackle.
According to his draft profile at NFL.com, Fabiano is an “athletic player who opened some eyes at his pro day with his speed and quickness. Quick lateral movement off the snap and can gain ground quickly to challenge on cross-face blocks. Plays with desired bend and decent hand work. Draft stock could benefit from experience playing at multiple spots along the offensive line.”
Normally the promotion of a player from the practice squad to the active roster would cause a very minor ripple. But with the attrition rate along the offensive line this season – the Browns have already lost starting guards Joel Bitonio and John Greco, along with center Austin Reiter, to season-ending injuries; and had Cameron Erving miss games with an injury – it would not be a complete surprise to see Fabiano on the field as early as Sunday’s game against the Cincinnati Bengals.
And it was not that long ago that safety Ed Reynolds was biding his time on the practice squad and now he is a stabilizing presence in the secondary.
As for Sterup, the 6-foot-9 and 318-pound lineman was originally signed by the Kansas City Chiefs as an undrafted free agent out of Nebraska, where he started 17 games. He worked in training camp at both left and right tackle with the Chiefs and spent time this season on the practice squads of both the Chiefs and New York Jets.
interpretation.
If you would have said 3 months I would have been able to agree with you.
.... ) 
