Get that done

I wonder how his age factors into that, if at all. I think he'll be 32 when the first year of the extension would hit, as opposed to Teller at 27.

Bitonio getting a second extension is so awesome. An all-timer.

When looking at the way Tellers contract is structured, even that looks like a two year deal in reality and he's 27. PPE made a very good point. You are looking to develop and replace high priced FA's at every turn. I would think even if Bitonio signs a four year deal it will be structured very much the Tellers is. While it will be four years on paper it will only be a two year deal from a practical standpoint.

How much less will/should Bitonio be offered being a vet, yet being ranked below Teller? Thoughts?

Berry might be able to keep MOST of the band together for 3-4 years...

The cap is about to go through the roof. We should be able to keep everyone we want.

Yeah, the cap will increase quite a bit. Having us keep our own is a great thing

I was going to ask if you were going to sign the checks, if it would come out of your wallet. Then I did some quick estimation, oh 16 million, well how many Browns fans are there? (guess, 50 million Browns fans.) ok, 16 million, that is 0.32, so 32 cents per fan.
Ok, but how many of the 50 million Browns fans pay the way for things? 1 in 1000? ok, 1 in 1000, that would be 320 dollars.
320 dollars on a 16 million extension, for 3 years to the fan cost. ( Ehh Cmon TL, don't be so negative, besides, it's probably 1, in 100 fans that pay, not one in 1000 fans that pay, so that is only 32 dollars.

32 dollars per ME, so one of these OL can get extended, not so much... wait! what if its one in 500 Browns fans who end up paying of those 50,000,000 Browns fans, instead of one in 100, and then it would be 64 dollars to ME, it has to come from somewhere,
Ehh, it's all Baker Mayfield insurance commercials, I'm sure the insurance company is never going to pass it along to any American who might be a football fan.
I mean, it won't mean my Progressive insurance policy will go up by 64 dollars in the next 3 years, right? ?? , what about a bundle?

What is the per fan cost of a 96 million dollar Per year offensive line, at 6 times 16 million per player per year.

What if there aren't 50 million Browns fans, what if, there are... 18 million Browns fans. (that is 1.12+ A dollar twelve and a half, not 32 cents.) If 1 in 1000 fans pony up, that extension 16 million per year, costs each fan 1125 bucks a year.
But we know it's 1 in 100 Browns fans who end up paying fan prices so, ok, only 1/10th of that 1125 bucks. 112 dollars .50
But what if it's only 1 in 500 browns fans that actually foot the bill 563 dollars?

You know, if a team can spread 563 dollars, around over 22 game weeks, (playoffs and preseason) and push part of that into things like progressive insurance or television advertising corporations increasing the cost of every Americans' bundle, that can become pretty unnoticeable real quick. What does it feel like 4%, increase?
Want to buy a Browns knick knack? You know you want to buy a Browns Knick Knack. look here is the elf, ya know they drew the elf differently this time.
Here's the thing. I can't stop others from giving things to me as gifts, on the holidays. I bet it's only 18 dollars premium, for a tiny waste paper bin, with a Browns elf on it, aaannd cross that name off the list of the holidays, ok, one done.

The Cap is about to go through the roof, we should be able to keep everyone we want,
and the, well, NOW COME ON TL!!! no stadium on earth is allowed to see it's 21st birthday!!! And you can't expect these, ... investors? to pay for the stadium!!
don't you care, now go buy a lottery ticket, and foot the tax, (buy 50 lottery tickets, it's 900 million") and foot the tax for the stadium that's 19+ years old, oh, the concrete is crumbling, Do you want to go through history again? (poor stadium just lost it's new car smell, got to get a new stadium smell air freshener to hang from the cars rear view stadium mirror) .

j/c...

Highest graded vs. single coverage...

Well, I didn't see that coming.
That's some magical value, right there. Again, a feather in Berry's cap!

Damned proud to have Joel here he has been a baller here every sense we drafted him.

Now go get you're ring Joel you have earned it.

j/c...

For all you nerds out there.

Talk about an upgrade.

Billings was a massive disappointment (literally)

I posted this once before, but felt it appropriate to honor Billings one last time.

Thanks for the memories, Andy!

Lol thats so bad

said since preseason.. i had no idea what they saw in billings to keep him over some of the younger guys

Hell, I could do better than that.

I don't know what they're ^ talking about. " Somebody has to catch it!" ..
Browns?
If you have such a prolific, storied and experienced, combination as Baker Mayfield, to Rashard Higgins,
Then why would you not make every opponent defend it week in and week out?

And if there is a coach, who cannot get, some snaps for Schwartz, Landry, Njoku!, Higgins, and DPJ, on the field and used in the Same Game,
then I don't think that offensive coach is getting the most out of their talent in the tool box.

A downhearted Landry speaks.

Welp, better start looking for Landry's replacement now.

Of course it hurts him, They are best friends.. . And I don't think anyone is picking on him.. i think we all know he is not 100%..

As far as looking for a replacement,, shouldn't we always be doing that?

Not at the expense of appreciating who is already there at the time. Especially if they are better and obviously better.
There is nothing wrong with getting a whole players career on your team. Remember continuity that everyone lobbied for so much a few short years ago, maybe 2 years ago.

Injuries have played a big part too. Baker’s, Conklin’s, Hunt’s, Chubb’s. And I think there’s also a sense that other coaches got enough of Stefanski’s tendencies over the offseason. We haven’t adjusted yet

First play of every game is a pass to a TE. He is so predictable it is disturbing...

Injuries have taken a toll. I don't think the OL has played, but 1 or 2 full games as a complete unit this year. Wills missed some games and was only making it through 2-3 quarters before re-aggravating his ankle injury in others, Conklin has missed games and is now on IR. Hubbard the back-up T got injured and is out for the season. They tried James Hudson and he was disaster. Now Blake Hance is being forced to play RT.

Here were Bill Callahan's comments on Blake Hance just last week:

“He is a utility guy who really should not be out on the end, but he is really surviving out there is how I would call it.”

If the Browns lose to Detroit they will be 2-5 in their last 7. That alarming mark is something just about any group since 1999 would have been capable of, but this team is a better team with better results.

Week 1 First play - Nick Chubb run
Week 2 - Nick Chubb run
Week 3 - Pass to Harrison Bryant
Week 4 - Nick Chubb run
Week 5 - Pass to Njoku
Week 6 - Pass to Hooper
Week 7 - Pass to Landry
Week 8 - Pass to Hooper
Week 9 - Nick Chubb run
Week 10 - D'Ernest Johnson run

Making stuff up is way easier than looking up what actually happened.

Smh. I was being extra when saying that... however it's pretty accurate. In the first few plays, 80% is a ridiculous number within the first couple plays.

I have almost zero issue with how we typically start games. It’s what happens in the next few drives that usually hurts us.

The only thing I dislike: when we start the game from an empty set. It drives me nuts

I hate how it feels like 80% of our red zone plays (maybe insdie the 10 rather than red zone) are passes or gimmick plays rather than run the ball down the opponents throat plays.

From today's press conference...

Almost as repetitive as KS saying he needs to coach better is saying "we need to get X person more into the gameplan". Is there anyone who IS in the gameplan (in terms of passcatchers)?

Hue Jackson is currently the offensive coordinator at Tennessee State.

He has once again risen to his level of incompetency.

Tennessee St HC is Eddie George, now heavily rumored to be taking over as HC at Akron U. Hue could be on his way back to working in NE Ohio. Convenient for him since (I think) he still owns a home here.

j/c...

Letting JOK know that he’s on a pitch count seems like the right thing to do.

Yeah lol that’s so strange

I wonder how is book is doing

So the way this is going we should be rooting against the Vikings and Broncos for the rest of the season with hopes that we can get Fangio or Zimmer as our defensive coordinator next year?

Have Bum's son come in and right the ship grooming someone else along the way, but yes, I'd take Zimmer if he gets 86'd.

Wade Phillips is 74 and this is his second year out of the league. My guess is that he’s done coaching.

Does Fangio run a 3-4?

I would take Zimmer in a heartbeat. The Bengals were willing to run through walls for him. That defense was never really right after he left, IIRC.

Fangio runs the same defense as Woods!

Basically the whole league started copying Brandon Staley’s Rams’ defense this season. Staley’s defense is Fangio’s defense.

He wanted to come out of retirement last year. He's been coaching in Europe this past year developing American football over there.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/15/wade-phillips-im-ready-to-retire-from-retirement/

Oh, interesting. In my head, I had it down as a 3-4 because I remember seeing 3 down linemen with Chubb and Miller both standing up OLB style. I remember thinking the same about Mack when he was back in Chicago, but that was only faint recollection.

He’s definitely been great everywhere he’s been. His contract didn’t renewed with the Rams because they got smoked several times in 2019. Anytime a coach is that old and been out of the league I worry about their ability to stay up to date with their scheme and trends in the league.

It’s hilarious to think of Wade Phillips coaching a bunch of Euros.

Vere do vee line up ahn zis play?

j/c...

I'll take "7 players I've never heard of" for 100 Alex.

If we're getting thin at positions and THOSE are the names we're bringing in to look at, then we're not looking for anything but filling out roster spots and things are gonna be getting mailed in.

Luq Barcoo. Has a ring to it.

So was that guy Blake Hance last year, that turned out ok.

Maybe names like Nate Meadors (S), Herb Miller (CB) & Jovante Moffatt (S) aren't inspiring much hope of upside on the current practice squad? May as well take a look at a few new faces.

If the playoffs were seeded today. Aka. Standings. It's tricky, because well between a Thurday and a Sunday after some teams have had the bye, there is actually the rare case of team A has played 11 games, team B has played only 9.
So tricky, I had it wrong even after fixing mistakes by the playoff checking website I visit, but now I think it's right. AFC, who cares about the NFC.
Both 6-3 teams are ahead of the 7-4 Patriots, as the winning percentage of 6-3 teams = 66.+ percent, and the wining percentage of a 7-4 team is 58.3+ percent.

1. The titans would get the bye 8-2
2. The Bills, 6-3, would be the 2 seed on their 5-3 afc record being better than balts' 4-3 afc record.
3 The Ravens 6-3,
4. The Chiefs 6-4 (2-4 in the afc, and 1-1 in their division.)

5. first wildcard = 7-4 patriots, 2nd in their division behind the bills in win %
6. next wildcard= the steelers at 5-3-1 on the strength of 1/2 win from that tie.
7. next wildcard last playoff spot.
currently there are 3 teams with 5-4 records and anytime there are 3 or more teams in consideration, (first eliminate all but the higest ranked remaining teams in each teams own division. ... The bengals are in 3rd place in the north at 5-4 so not them,
the Raiders are 5-4 but 3-2 in the afc, 1-2 in the div, afc west, <which matters because they are in contention with the 5-4 Chargers in the same div. afc west who are 3-2 in afc, but 2-0 in the div. and won head-head vs the raiders.
So the LA Chargers would be the 7 seed, and final playoff spot today.
8.seed. 5-
Now that the tie break is back to between 2 clubs instead of 3, the rule of kicking the Bengals out for 3rd place in their div. no longer applies, so it's head to head Bengals 5-4 and Raiders 5-4 head to head, not applicable until they play this week,
conference record, 3-2 and 3-2.
common games minimum 4, not applicable but they are both 2-1 at the moment in common games.
Next is Strenth of victory, which is the Win-Loss record of teams they have beaten. The bengals opponents they have beaten have a record of 6-20-1 (all 9 games) and the Raiders records of teams the Raiders have beaten is 12-18 (all 10 games.) that's after removing the common victories, conclusion, Raiders beat better teams and get the 8 spot, a non playoff spot for now.
8 seed= Raiders 5-4
9 seed= Bengals 5-4
10 seed, (the Browns are removed because 3 teams from separate divs. are 5-5 but even if the broncos, on a bye week didn't exist the colts are 4-3 vs the afc, but in this 3 way tie get the spot for being in 2nd place in their div. not 4th like the broncos and browns.
10 seed, Colts 5-5, (4-3)(2-2)
11. seed, Browns, Head to head win over the broncos trumps even conf. record. 5-5 (3-4)(1-1) Beat Broncos
12. seed Broncos, 5-5 overall, (2-4 in the afc,) and (0-1 in their own division)
13. the 3-7 dolphins
14. the 2-7 Jaguars, and 2-7 jets came down to common opponens and, the jags are 2-5 with 5 remaining in common opponents, and the Jets are 2-6 with 4 remaining, so the Jaguars get spot 14.
15, the Jets at 2-7
16. The Texans are 1-8 Then there is the NFC...

So today if the playoffs were today it would be the Titans with the Bye
Chargers at the Bills
Steelers at the Ravens and
the Patriots at the Chiefs. (Those aren't the best teams)

j/c...

Sounds like Hunt is ready to return next week.

I hope so

Well we're 1 loss away from our playoff chances being realistically (not mathematically) gone - which likely happens next weekend after Baltimore. At that point I think you see Baker sat down and the remainder of the season "getting mailed in" after the bye. We're just preparing for the inevitable.

I totally disagree. Baker! should be out, because he's injured, and while injured isn't as good of an option to get you a win as Case.

They should NEVER give up on playing starters because they think they are out of the picture, this year, without at LEAST 8 losses in the loss column, and today they only have 5. So that's 3 more bad days before one should even Discuss, sitting starters.
------------

Continuity, Means not cutting Odell Beckham Jr. at least until the season ends. ... (too late for that one)

The Defensive Coordinator, does not need replaced, he needs to be Sat Down, and Demanded he figure out a way, to put more than 4 players on the line of scrimmage,
stop the Bull ! ! that 4 players need to get pressure, because,
IT PROVED WRONG, SO, evolve, make a decision, make an adjustment, FIGURE OUT, how you are going to get pressure by bringing more than 4 people on the line of scrimmage,

STOP MAKING PREVENT YOUR BASE DEFENSE THAT'S CLUELESS GARBAGE, it obviously AINT" WORKING, And your ARe not pressuring any of the opponents QB's either anyway.
AND YOU HAVE A FREAKING
ALL STAR LIST OF TALENT
ON YOUR FREAKING DEFENSIVE FRONT 4 ANYWAY, (So it's Coaching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

But Continuity means, not throwing in the towel on the defensive coordinator either. Yet Demanding that defensive coach, FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO SOMETHING DIFERENT, and NOT, just 3 snaps a game.
-------------------

The National Media, (SPIT !) successfully talked OBJ off the Browns, successfully beat down the Browns front office psychologically until the Browns caved by not keeping OBJ until the end of the season.
AND YA HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BENCHED! BECAUSE of his play. But not Waived, Waiving him only gives the new yorkers blood in the water like sharks in a feeding frenzy

They will come after pressuring you to part from Mayfield now.
You can't win if you listen to the ynew nyorkers tell you what to do as a Browns Organization.

Has there been any word on JOK's injury yesterday? Guy just can't seem to stay healthy.

Well Stefanski seems content to throw out a one armed, one legged QB - so why wouldn't he be confident in sending out other less injured players?

Maybe the purple is only half required?

The guy is losing a whole lot of good will he built up last season .. lol

I don't think he should lose a lot of good will but asking hard questions when things under his control are going sideways is fair. We have been plagued by injury. Other than the play calling which seems to splutter and get too pass happy or too cute when we are struggling, I have no real complaints about KS. keeping a hurt Baker out there when it's clearly impacting performance is another issue. But KS has the keys to the kingdom for at least another couple years in my book.

It's a Big Deal to win 6 games in the NFL. (Ask the Chiefs, they lost 4 AFC games in a row.) The Browns are 6-5

Today the Browns are in a position, where, without any help from other teams, they can still win all of their games and would be 12-5 and in front in their division by a half a game. And if a division winner would be guaranteed to host a playoff game.

Quick Question. If the Browns only win One of the Games against the Ravens, Which game is more important, the First game, or the later game after the Bye week???

Obviously, the First Game, is the more "significant" and prestige giving game of the two. For these reasons.

1. Winning the First game against Baltimore, means you beat them in their house, Your Franchise has the only opportunity to sweep the series, and They will have to play in front of your crowd in the 2nd game.

2. Winning the first game means you beat a team the week before your bye week, which shows progress, because many teams play not as well the week before their bye week because they may be looking ahead to the chance at rest.

3. The NFL only gives 6' AFC Road games on the schedule, which every year are important in getting playoff berths, and at this point,
The Browns only have 2 AFC Road games remaining on their schedule, at Baltimore, and at Pittsburgh.

4. Beating Baltimore in Baltimore establishes more dominance!!!! In conquering their stadium as the Browns' House!


And it keeps alive the self determination of winning the division, and it's the next game.
5. And it's a division game, and it's Baltimore, so it's always significant!

If they only win ONE game against the Ravens, they need to make sure it is THIS WEEK, the First one, the Fist game is the more significant matchup!

Remember, it is the only one that allows them the opportunity, to win Both!

I agree with your sentiment and I would stress one thing and add another thing.

Winning the first game allows you to relax and play more loose in the second game, if you don't allow that relaxation to turn into complacency, you should play better in the second game. It would put all of the pressure on the Ravens to not get swept and risk losing their lead in the division (depending on what they do with the Steelers)

The first game is on Sunday night, national television, all of the NFL fans and talking heads watching... and most of the press on the Browns has been negative, from the OBJ story, to what's wrong with Baker, to why are we underachieving, it has been all about the "experts" picking sides on who is to blame and it has to be having an impact inside the facility.... so to go out and make a statement win against the division leader on national TV, would be HUGE in getting them off the Browns back at least for a little while.. and Baker doesn't have to play great but if he just has a decent, no turn over game, and plays the type of efficient football we need him to play to beat a good team like the Ravens, the impact all of that could have on putting this team on the right track down the stretch is immeasurable.

j/c...

Sweet, that works well for my travel plans and the wife will get to go to another game.

We will probably be 6-7 and hopelessly in last place in the AFC North.

Well, at least I'll be able to watch it at my home, rather than at a Christmas with some 20-25 other people.

Extra day to prepare for the Christmas day game.

Stop the presses! We agree.

The Raiders vs. Browns game will be on Saturday December 18th at 4:30 pm and broadcast on NFL network.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...r-week-13-snf-flex-announced/8739832002/

During the Browns bye week, week 13, The 49ers' vs Seahawks game got moved out of, and the Broncos at Chiefs game got moved into Sunday night football.
(Let's hope Al micheals can brush up on his rosters, I'm sure he'll have to change all his notes. )

And, back to the week of the Browns vs Raiders on Saturday, their will be a double header, with the Patriots at the Colts following the Browns hosting the Raiders game on Saturday evening.

With it being on NFL Network, does that mean it's streamed via Amazon Prime?

That’s my birthday. Cant remember the last time we played a saturday game at home. I prefer it honestly.

I hope the Browns give you a GREAT Happy Birthday, if you know what I mean.

Notes: Coaches say Baker Mayfield looked good in practice, hopeful he’s turned corner on injuriesby Scott PetrakNovember 26, 2021

BEREA — Baker Mayfield just played his two worst statistical games of the season, but the Browns are optimistic he’s turned the corner from an injury standpoint and his performance will turn around starting Sunday night in Baltimore.

“Looked good,” coach Kevin Stefanski said Friday after practice. “I think he said he is feeling the best he has felt. He is throwing the ball well.”

Mayfield (left shoulder, left foot, groin) was a full participant for the second straight day after resting Wednesday. Coordinator Alex Van Pelt raved about his practice Thursday.

“Very strong day. We were inside. The ball was flying off of his hand,” he said. “He was very accurate. I do not know if we had an incompletion yesterday.”

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Jack Conklin excited to be back to face Ravens less than month after left arm was “facing the opposite direction”

The groin injury was added to Mayfield’s list of ailments against the Lions, but Van Pelt doesn’t think it’s “cause for concern” and has seen an improvement in his mobility over the last couple of weeks.

“I saw it yesterday in practice, too,” he said. “I think he is hopefully turning the corner on all of that stuff.

“I think he is feeling better. Hopefully that will be it for the season and we feel healthier each week.”

Stefanski believes Mayfield’s mobility has improved recently.

“I think we saw it in the last game. He made a few plays with his feet,” he said. “That is an important part of what he does.”

Drew Brees says injuries affecting Baker Mayfield’s accuracy but still must find way to win

Mayfield completed only 15 of 29 passes for 176 yards last week vs. the Lions, the second straight game he barely topped 50 percent. In the 45-7 loss to the Patriots and 13-10 win over the Lions, Mayfield completed 52 percent for 249 yards, two touchdowns, three interceptions and a 54.5 passer rating.

“It is nothing fundamental as I look at it,” Van Pelt said. “As a quarterback, you are going to have days where you just miss a throw. Sometimes you are going to miss more than one in a game. My thing to him is you just have to keep playing.

“I would never blame it on the weather, but it was not a great day (Sunday) for throwing the ball. I expect him to make those throws moving forward and so does he.”

Mayfield said Wednesday the lower-body injuries have been difficult for him because of his unorthodox motion that includes “violent” movements.

“I have not seen much change from the waist down,” Van Pelt said. “He is definitely a guy who throws with a lot of torque and core, and those injuries that he does have can affect how much he torques and how he throws it.

“He has looked really good this week in practice. I think he will be just fine.”

Commentary: A rough season for Baker Mayfield can still be salvaged

A JOLT

Running back Kareem Hunt looked like a man happy to be back on the field as he went through drills and joked with teammates.

“I really think it is just his energy that he brings, it will be huge for us,” Van Pelt said. “I do not see us using him a lot differently than we have in the past. Really just that one-two punch with him and Nick (Chubb), but any time you get him back on the field, it is good for the team.”


Hunt will be activated from injured reserve Saturday after missing five games with a calf injury. In six games, he has rushed 69 times for 361 yards, a 5.2 average and five touchdowns. He has 20 catches for 161 yards and is a valuable third-down option out of the backfield.

“It is huge, and he does a great job,” Van Pelt said of the passing game. “Kareem made a huge play against (the Ravens) last year on a short-yard situation and made a big catch down the sideline.

“Adding him back in the mix as a third-down back and then spelling Nick and keeping both of those guys fresh is a big part of what we do well offensively.”

RECEIVERS ROOM

The receiving corps will be without rookie Anthony Schwartz (concussion) for the second straight game but might get back Donovan Peoples-Jones (groin), who was listed as questionable for Sunday night. He didn’t play vs. the Lions, returned to practice Thursday and was limited Friday for the second straight day.

“He looked good and looked like himself again,” Van Pelt said of Thursday. “Hopefully there are no setbacks between now and Sunday. He is a guy who has made a lot of plays for us this year, and it would be great if we can get him up on Sunday.”

Stefanski said Peoples-Jones was able to do more in practice compared with last Friday, when he was also listed as questionable.

“I thought he had a decent day, so we will see where it goes,” Stefanski said.

INJURY REPORT

No. 3 defensive end Takk McKinley (groin) was a full participant all week and will play after missing the last two games and three of four. In eight games, he has 1.5 sacks, five quarterback hits and three tackles for loss.

“He’s the X-factor in our room, being able to drop very well and also being a different rusher than me and JD,” defensive end Myles Garrett said, referring to Jadeveon Clowney. “We miss him, we’re glad he’s back.”

“Just the athleticism he brings would definitely be a bonus against these guys,” coordinator Joe Woods said.

** Nickelback Troy Hill (neck) was limited all week and listed as questionable. He missed last week after getting hurt Nov. 14 vs. the Patriots.

** Rookie linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah (ankle) was a full participant all week after leaving the Lions game early.

“He is fighting through it,” Woods said. “Is he a whole way 100 percent? Probably not, but him at 90-95 percent is pretty good.”

** For the Ravens, receiver Miles Boykin (finger), tackle Cedric Ogbuehi (thigh) and safety Ar’Darius Washington (foot) were ruled out.

Cornerbacks Anthony Averett (thigh), Jimmy Smith (neck), Chris Westry (thigh) and Tavon Young (foot/knee), defensive tackle Calais Campbell (concussion), right tackle Patrick Mekari (ankle), receiver Marquise Brown (thigh), nose tackle Brandon Williams (shoulder), tight end Nick Boyle (knee) and fullback Patrick Ricard (hip/foot) were listed as questionable.

SAFETY TOWN

Safety Ronnie Harrison Jr. was benched for the first series last week for unspecified disciplinary reasons. Woods said they’ve moved past the incident.

“Everybody, you get a little chippy as you go through the season — it is a long season — but we have to do things the right way,” Woods said. “Ronnie is fine. He came out and has had a great week of practice to this point, so I do not think there will be any effects from what happened.”

Grant Delpit started in place of Harrison, then played in the three-safety packages. In 10 games Delpit has 33 tackles, two tackles for loss, a sack, a forced fumble and two passes defensed. He missed all of his rookie season in 2020 after his Achilles ruptured.

“A lot of this stuff for this year for him is we are kind of finding out about him every game,” Woods said. “We did not have that opportunity last year so there are things that we try to fix that we see that show up on tape, but I think he is progressing well and he is fitting into the system the way I thought he would.”

KICKER CONFIDENCE

Chase McLaughlin missed a 46-yard field goal wide right vs. the Lions and had an extra point blocked.

“The PAT was a low kick. The protection was outstanding,” special teams coordinator Mike Priefer said. “He has to get it higher than that.”

McLaughlin’s four misses have come in the last five games.

“I have not lost confidence in him at all,” Priefer said. “I think he will be just fine.

“He is a very mentally tough young man. He has a lot of confidence in himself in a good way.”

The Ravens have Justin Tucker, who’s one of the all-time best and 20-for-22 this year, including a record 66-yard winner vs. the Lions.

“Hopefully he is not in a situation where he can hit a game-winner because that is what he does,” Priefer said.

That's the first time I heard that it was THAT bad.

Haha no doubt Troop!

I'm a bit surprised that Conklin recovered so quickly from what I understood was a serious injury. I honestly thought he would be done for the rest of the season..his return comes at a good time.

The Browns organization have become very good at keeping their business out of the view of the media...this front office just doesn't leak much info as it may have in the past. A player's medical information is not supposed to be for the public unless the player decides to make their information open to the media...and that is all good for the franchise, imo.

From what I hear he looks like the 6 million dollar man

https://en.as.com/en/2021/09/08/nfl/1631087211_257317.html

According to this article, Yes! about 2/3rds down the page is a list of all games on amzon prime in the 2021/2022 year and on the list under week 15 it reads.
SATURDAY DOUBLE HEADER to be announced. in all caps.

This would be the double header announced on Saturday week 15, Raiders at Browns and later Patriots at Colts.

Sadly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The article is a reminder that Amazon prime will have the soul broadcasts, (or actually no viewing ability, actually)
to between 11-15 games in 2022.
and every year until 2032. I guess I'll have to get used to never seeing even highlights of some NFL games that are exclusive to amazon.

I Have a Retraction!!
In a Post on this thread, from page 2 by me, which started "If the Playoffs were today, and included,
figuring out the tie breaker between the Raiders and the Bengals at the time.

After going through tie breakers further down the list, and coming up with what would be the right result that the Raiders were, at the time ahead of the Bengals.
I later realized in my own notes that I had mis calculated the Raiders AFC record at the time as 3-2 and equal to Cincinnati's 3-2 AFC record at the time. My ERROR!!

Actually the Raiders had a 4-2 AFC record at the time, and there would be no reason to look beyond that 2nd? tie breaker to give the Raiders the, (then) advantage.
Then they played and the Bengals won about 18 hours later, so the head to head win trumps the other tie breaks anyway, but wanted to get that retraction out.

j/c...

It feels like Stanton has just been a constant shuffle on and off the COVID list.

j/c..

Daryl Ruiter
@RuiterWrongFAN
#Browns EVP/GM Andrew Berry opens Zoom bye week video conference with "6-6 doesn't reflect the aspirations we had for the season."

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said next five games provide us with very valuable opportunity, learn a lot about people amid adversity, and adversity is important for growth. Berry added you hope for meaningful football in December and January, and that's still right in front of us.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry said Baker Mayfield has fought through injury, like other players on the team, and while they know he's tough they expect him to perform at a winning level and that "We expect him to play his best football down the stretch."

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry said the passing game hasn't been consistent enough and stresses that it isn't a one person problem.

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on whether he believes Baker Mayfield is franchise's QB of future: You need to take big-picture approach, it's body of work, we've seen Baker play good football here and we're excited about moving forward and the opportunity ahead of us the next five weeks

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said he has a ton of confidence in HC Kevin Stefanski as a play caller

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on how Kevin Stefanski has handled second year as HC: He has all the virtues and characteristics that are important for our organization. ... He's been transparent with you guys about areas of team that can be better

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said we all think the offense can play at a higher level, biggest thing is the consistency in the passing game, our staff is hard at work finding solutions for us to play at highest level in final five weeks of the season

Berry not accepting injuries as an excuse not to perform...

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said QB Baker Mayfield has told you guys he's felt healthier week to week, I expect our guys to work through this tough stretch, and that's not just Baker, that's our entire team

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on why they didn't rest QB Baker Mayfield with injuries earlier in season: For any player in terms of whether they're on the field, it's are they medically cleared, are they medically cleared that would allow them to function & can he perform on game day?

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on QB Baker Mayfield playing through injuries: nobody is 100% healthy in December in the NFL

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry said there are 3 things to determine if an injured player can play:

1. Medically cleared & won't hurt themselves further.
2. Medically cleared to allow them to play at a wining level.
3. Player shows in practice they can perform all requirements on game day.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry: "Baker's our quarterback. He's healthy enough to win games for us...if he's ready to go he's going to be our starter."

Tom Withers
@twithersAP
In context of Mayfield's future, Berry reiterates his focus is on Browns playing well down the stretch and "maximizing" this season.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry on Donovan Peoples-Jones: "He's come along more quickly than we anticipated when we drafted him."
Said he's been a little stop and start from injuries this season but he's has and will continue to play a major role in the passing game.

Tom Withers
@twithersAP
Berry "very pleased" with how Clowney has played and said there's still time to consider any future plans for him in Cleveland.

Tom Withers
@twithersAP
Berry confident "Kevin can handle everything on his plate" and believes penalty issues will be cleaned up.

Scott Petrak ct
@ScottPetrak
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said he's looking forward to schematic adjustments Kevin Stefanski and staff will make coming out of bye for critical final 5-game stretch.

From my point of view, the two biggest questions coming out of this season will be Baker and Stefanski (not necessarily in that order).

I think the injury topic affects KS's performance moreso than anyone else. The injuries to his tackles, RBs, and QB affects how 'open' his playbook can be. Even the talking heads were commenting how our run attack is so heavily biased to the left (away from Hance).

For me regarding Baker's injuries, it comes down to the idea that if he really was so injured that it affects his play so much, then we would be seeing more of Case Keenum. KS wouldn't have brought him in and paid him so much to view him as such a liability if he were to go in.

I really don't like what I hear from Berry .. Is it PR , or does he really believe what he is saying about Ski and the Offence ? If I where Haslam I would wonder if I have One Hit ( year ) wonder in Ski . Is it possible he can't get out of his own way ? There are many a feuds on the board , but few disagree on Ski as an OC at this time .

Lack of a threat at WR ; Berry .. Not enough at LB l Berry .. Back up at Tackle ; Berry .. He needs to take a little heat also .. Drafted a third round tackle that can't see the field ( Berry ) .

I would strongly suggest that Board members go back and watch Baker at Oklahoma and see what he does best . Trow on the move ( roll out ) . Improvise .
Harbaugh would do wonders with Baker .

In other words ..... fix it.

He also said that he expects Baker to play better... and that everyone has to play better.

It sounds like he's acknowledging that there's a problem but the solution is more complex than anyone would want to admit... but he trusts them to improve.

j/c...

Should I start the stopwatch to see how long he stays back?

"Stefanski said playing Hunt and Chubb together was among one of the many things team discussed last week"

Well, it's only taken him like 20 months to think about trying the thing every fan, everywhere, has been begging to see since Hunt got here.

"Stefanski says the Browns are "working through everything" at right tackle. That presumably means rookie James Hudson could replace Blake Hance. Maybe Michael Dunn could be in the mix too. Obviously they'll keep the Ravens guessing but know the blitzes are coming."


Translation: we've gone to church and lit a candle in prayer. The situation at RT is in God's Hands, now.

I wonder if Alex Taylor is in the mix at RT? He's on practice squad right now. Guy on local sports talk (Jeff Phelps) thinks he might be.

My eyes said Taylor out played Hudson in Pre season ..

Mitchell Schwartz is out there… And I wonder if Teller could kick out to tackle and have Hance, Harris, or Dunn move inside?

Chubb is such, a reputational runner, that, he doesn't get the credit for his abilities as a catcher.
If we did a break down of best hands / abilities to come down with a catch on the offense, Chubb has got to be close to the top, may be top 3 in a game where Higgins is a healthy scratch, like last game. Who is ahead of Chubb in hands.
Hunt, No, imo, Hunt is lesser to chubb in Hands, he may be close, and he may be more dynamic in yac, but before the catch, to strong arm, box out, and come down with the catch in traffic, Chubb is about top 3.

So who is ahead of him, Landry, and Njoku, and Higgins.

The Ravens, ... run right at em for 3 yards a carry. D'Ernest Johnson, is a better runner than a catcher, and, he has shown he can be effective as an all game #1 option.


If the Browns put D'ernest, Hunt, and Chubb on the field on the same plays, over and over and over and over and over and over, all 3 Rbs. The recipe for success imo, might be, play actions passes to Chubb, 16 yards downfield, play action runs to D'Ernest straight up the gut. Play action screens to Hunt.

If Chubb, the biggest reputational runner, is on the field, 20 snaps with D'ernest and Hunt, and D'ernest gets a bunch of carries, and Hunt gets the 2nd most carries, and some pass targets, and Chubb gets ONLY Pass Targets;

then everyone would whine and complain, but it may be the most effective. Until it is time to 'give Chubb the run carries.

Count me as the lead begger. I have been wanting the Browns to use them ala Mack/Byner Both can run, catch, and block. The defense wouldn't be able to key on either back running the ball, of catching the ball. Either can run, either or both can stay in the backfield and pick up blitzes. Either or both could go out for a pass. you could have a outlet to dump the ball off to either side of the field, and you still have Johnson to spell either of them for a few plays or a series, plus Felton could fill in for a few plays as well.

This would be the perfect game to unleash them both with both our 3rd, and 4th Tight ends out this week. Come on Coach show us your not just a pretty face, you have a mind to match.

Is having both in the backfield really going to help? I could see starting with both and then splitting out Hunt, but my (inexperienced) eyes see a great idea on the surface that probably doesn't have much substance to it when you really get into it.

I get putting as much talent out on the field as possible at all times (especially in our situation in crunch time), but we also have to worry about Hunt's health. He's coming back from injury and re-aggravated it in the last game. It's a balancing act.

The thought is there cause our run game was for the first time stopped in our game with Ravens. We will still bring Harrison in as HB and lead blocker but throw in an extra blocker in Chubb or Hunt with the pulling Teller - Harrison is a good blocker from the HBack position and both Harrison and Hunt can run routes in the passing game with Chubb there for screens and swing passes.
jmho

Mitchel Schwartz has been doing media all season and it does not sound like he is playing anymore.

Now it looks like our 2nd TE is out with covid. We are down to ONE TE so their is no way in hell Kevin can run a three TE offense most of the time. It's time for Kevin to look really good or really bad this weekend. Come on Kevin make yourself look good not bad in front of every Browns fan.

TE's gone? obviously that means we're gonna throw the rock even more, duuuuh

I am happy about this. I think the 3 TE sets are part of the reason the Browns are 6-6.

KS: "Challenge accepted!"

Njoku and who else???

Harrison has the high ankle sprain is assumed (?) out.

The Browns might be putting Harrison on the DL, and Carlson is on the covid list as well.

We might see a traditional Wing-T for the next couple weeks ...

j/c...

Browns elevated TE Miller Forristall to the active roster. Also, Johnny Stanton is a former TE. Come hell or high water Stefanski will play his 3 TE sets (half joking)!

If they can't even field a team that will have players with any hope that they are going to play well.
Then why should anybody watch the game.

I know your probably joking but I’ll answer this, Because there are only 17 of them, and when there done, they are done til August. Wouldnt miss one, havent missed one in many years. I dont care if they are terrible, average, really good!

Sometimes the overall message on this board can be somewhat confusing. On one hand posters claim our WR's suck and in the next breathe claim lining up 3 TE's is the issue.

If the WR's suck and "can't get separation" as some have claimed, what difference does it make if we line up WR's or TE's?

My counter to that would be at least by spreading out into WR sets it keeps opposing teams from having everyone in the box. Creating less space for Chubb and Hunt to work.

I don't see how they load up the box with 3 of 4 starting secondary guys out for the season.

The defense still has to cover anyone that runs a route out of any formation. When a defense stacks seven or eight men in the box, that's the amount of players that are not in coverage.

The Browns TEs will not stretch the defense and allow the running game to be more productive....the only way to get the defense to back off of the LOS is to put more WRs in game, creating the threat of deeper pass patterns...and that only works if the offense completes some deeper pass patterns. Another option would be to use a RB or TE to run a deep pass pattern.

You don't need to "stretch" a defense to successfully run the ball. Getting the defense to move out of the box makes the run game succeed. Even moving defenders eight to twelve yards down the field means you can keep moving the chains.

I can't believe I actually have to explain this but it appears I do....

The running play is designed to go in a certain direction. With the zone blocking scheme the OL blocks in ways to create certain holes in certain places. If the play is designed to go up the middle, you have your TE's run routes that will take their defenders to the outside which clears the middle. If the run goes to the right, those same TE's run routes that take the defenders to iddle and left the left side to have the same effect. The same example applies if you wish to run to the left. Those TE's run routes that take their defenders to the middle and right side. It's very basic football.

The issue is when they stack so many players in the box that the OL can't account for them all where the problem arises. If you have four receiving targets, be them WR's or TE's, they can direct their defenders away for where the play is going. The only variance I see is that if you throw a couple of long passes during a game, which we still often do, it creates a situation where they may keep another safety deep.

But as we've seen, even throwing the ball over 35 times has not made them respect Baker's arm. They are selling out to stop the run and forcing Baker to try and beat him with his arm. No matter the number of WR's on a given route, they are using one on one coverage. Until we make them pay for that don't expect anything to change.

I have mentioned a few times about your over negative connotation regards everything 'Baker' - and your response is that you are open and neutral and anything might be in play regards Baker's ability etc.

And yet here you are with a gross manipulation of the topic - clearly deliberate - to try and make this all about Baker and Baker's (in)ability.

I believe a neutral interested in a real discussion and observation about the run game and how the Brown's did or didn't perform would have written "But as we've seen, even throwing the ball over 35 times has not made them respect the Browns passing attack." .... I mean go ahead and try to debate that what you wrote wasn't a 100% swipe at Baker but I think the picture at this point is crystal clear with regards to what you are posting and why.

And of course you can't do it without your snark and condescension.

Nice Catch LOL

[
Got it thanks...that sucks as soon as I deem the kid as our best TE...he gets a high ankle sprain in our bye week? Football? or basketball???

Got a feeling this kid from Bama will be a Wally Pipp case and will be a stud missed by all!!! Come on Berry!

Tight ends running routes to clear space is absolutely true if you run delays or draws. If your line and TE's instantly start run blocking all you've done is bring more men into the box to defend the run and clog up running lane. Also it's about match ups. 3 TE's and the defense can remove a DB. Sooner or later any big run is gonna be your RB one on one with a defender. If you run more WR's that means more DB's and that makes it more likely that that one on one is Chubb or Hunt on a corner which is better than one on one with a linebacker.

It doesn't have to happen that way, you can just isolate that defender on the opposite side of the field from the running side, and run by 4 others with angles and speed, it happens all the time. (So it ends up one on zero) But Baltimore has always pursued so it's best to run right at them. The one thing the Browns have almost never done since Stefanski arrived, run right at teams.

That's just about all we tried against them last game. We tried to get outside, we tried to go right at them. They snuffed pretty much every attempt we made at running; they shut us down, and more than a few times they did so behind the LoS.
Fifteen times we tried to run it and they were right there to shut it down. Every. Single. Time. Those fifteen runs netted us 36 yards.

The problem was NOT that we magically didn't call the right type of run play.

I love how you try and make this about me when you can't dispute a single point I just made.

In the Baltimore game Mayfield threw 37 times. He was 18-37. Baltimore turned the ball over four times and we scored 10 points.

Nothing Baker did caused Baltimore's defense to respect our passing game. They kept playing man coverage and stacking the box to stop the run in order to force Baker to try and beat them with his arm.

Those things are all true. Who you wish to blame for that and why that happened is for each of us to decide. But no matter how much you keep pointing the finger at me, I'm not on the roster and had no part in it. When your QB is throwing for around 50% and the team can't put points on the board after getting four turnovers, no team is going to respect your passing game or believe your offense is going to put enough points on the board to beat you if you can stop their run game. Even our own fans know that it's our running game that's our strong suit. If we can't run our odds of winning go WAY the hell down. If we know it, NFL teams know it.

For future reference keep in mind that's not my fault. I don't make the news. I just report it.

FWIW, this is also what I saw. It was practically a hand-delivered invitation for the passing game to beat them.

The Cody Kessler game plan.

That's one of the strong suits of my charming personality!

Yup.
The thing I keep getting hung up on, because I *hate* the idea that we should be giving up on Baker and I think that it isn't warranted and refuse to believe that it is, is WHY did this work so well? Why were they able to go Man Coverage on us so successfully?
Is it as simple as the combination of our OLine and TE/WRs don't threaten anyone once you shut down our Run and kill the threat of play action? I think that there is a good bit to that notion.

Just thinking this through (not advocating one way or another for anything, just trying to put thoughts on the screen): our O is built on running & passing from the same looks. For starters, if you take away our ability to run, the so-called great advantages of our stellar OLine are greatly diminished, and if a team takes away the threat of the run, all they have left to defend is a very vanilla O, no matter what the formation or personnel group. Once Play action goes away our Bread & Butter is gone. We're left with half an OLine to pass block and usually just two TE and one WR to go out into routes.... and if those guys don't scare anyone enough for them to draw a double.... we get really easy to defend really quickly. It seems that Baltimore frequently did a "Run Blitz on the way to the QB" thing, so they were killing our runs, often before they got started, while at the same time bringing pressure if it wasn't a run. The situation at RT exasperates this and makes it easier for them, and if you add in that Wills hasn't been spectacular, either, things are definitely hampered. The QB has to step up or move off of his drop sooner than you'd want, but that also moves him off that drop often before a window comes open, which means he misses a designed read opportunity. Timing is ruined. It kind of compresses the field, now, too, because we no longer have the time and they are crashing gaps, so they can gamble on single-covering deep. The box is crowded, so drags & slants to quick-hit over the middle in front of the QB are frequently taken away, so the QB only has things on the outside to look to (in general). Basically, it REALLY simplifies their life when they can be successful with that approach.


Other than Landry, and maybe DPJ, I don't think we have any WR that an opposing team needs to give extra attention to, and even Landry is probably a guy that teams are willing to try to single-cover, especially a hobbled Landry.
Hooper and Njoku are both really good, but again, I don't know that they are anyone that a team has to fear.

Schematically, I'm not sure how you beat it. The NFL is all about matchups, and I think this works because that approach works well because of how they match up against our current lineup. That right side DOES hamper things for us, and DEs CAN rush up past Wills and loop back (I wonder how that ankle *really* is), and do so frequently. All that's left is for the guys in the box to close gaps because they've got the edges. In general, whichever way Teller goes is where the ball is going.... so, watch him and then crash gaps and you've got us. I think that tendency, obviously, needs to be broken. I think the overloads we've tried need to continue - where we bunch a lot of receivers to one side... the goal being to flood/empty an area. This needs to be done from a run look to keep the middle of the field honest, and it needs to happen to get them out of what they're doing and to create a favorable situation for us, but - in the end - Guys Need to Make Plays, and I think that is where we are failing all-around. Our guys just are NOT winning their plays. Sometimes its the OL, sometimes its the TEs or WRs, sometimes its the QB, sometimes its the coaches and the calls. The number of balls that are thrown away because of pressure, the number of procedural brain-farts that cost us yardage, the number of balls that are dropped - be it bad hands or bad passes, the number of times our guys just fail to give the QB a decent target.... when guys aren't winning their play in the passing game despite the opponent having enough respect for our run game to shut it down, that's a major problem.

I dunno... just some over-caffeinated mental rambling, trying to guesswork it out on a theoretical level without the benefits of All-22 film to see the Who, What, and When of things.

Just a thought. Is there a chance we could pick up a WR with potential off of someone's practice squad? Andrew Berry is pretty sharp so I'm sure he's already looked into this but again something I thought about.

and... our 3rd and 4th player is out this week with Covid.

Well, Walker is a smart player, but he isn't an elite talent... JJ3 can make his calls for him.
Gillan.... well, we just have to not punt on Sunday and it won't matter.

Great post, Prp!

Pit...can't believe I have to explain this to you...

The Browns run game was shut down because the Ravens stacked the box with 5 rushing most of the time and anywhere from 1 to 4 DBs and/or LBs backing up their front 5 rushers. Much of the time, this second line of the Ravens D lined up only 5 yds or so behind the 5 DLine rushers. The Ravens with 8 to 10 defenders within approx 5 yds of the LOS felt they could limit the Browns run and the Browns short passing game...and they pretty much did just that. How many the Ravens rushed depended on the number of WRs or TEs the Browns lined up as potential receivers.

The best receiving threat the Browns could put on the field was 3 TEs, 2 wrs and a RB. Why Higgins was not activated for this game, I'll never figure out, because he was one of Mayfields favorite receivers last year. Higgins had 599 yds receiving on 37 catches and a 16.2 yds per catch in 2020...this season, Stefanski has gone BRAIN DEAD, making Higgins a healthy scratch for this Ravens game. JMO, but it looks like the analytics front office is more concerned about playing THEIR GUYS...THE GUYS THEY DRAFTED OR SIGNED...now they want to accumulate some data to analyze these young guys in an attempt to justify their own draft picks.

Why was Felton in the game rather than one of our 3 experienced backs...btw, it was Felton who dropped one Mayfields passes that would have set the Browns up with a 1st down around the 50 yds line...WHY DID STEFANSKI HAVE OUR SOME OF OUR WORST PLAYERS IN THE RAVENS GAME, INSTEAD OUR BEST?...IT IS A LEGIT QUESTION!

Also, can we expect another gadget play this Sunday, once the offense gets moving the ball? Good way to kill a drive as well as any momentum the offense builds up.

My guess would be that Depo, Berry and the analytics boys are anxious to see their draft picks on the field while Stefanski yields to upper management's desires.

Without playing our best WRs and RBs I don't look for the Browns to do any better against the Ravens than the last time. The Ravens will continue to stack the box until the Browns coaching staff and management produce a winning game plan.

Depo and Berry have been huge negatives since the beginning.
I've always felt this, but hoped somehow it wouldn't hurt, or I was completely wrong, or something, but !
---- the problem now is, (as the wheels are about to fall off this bus again probably), --- the Haslems'
the right thing to do at this point, at seasons' end, would be to keep everything in tact, as much as you can, going forward, and not make huge sweeping changes, and
the problem with that is, --- it would take the Haslems' to take a deep breath and show the guts to stay the course,
and that, would be an evolution from what they have shown in the past.
I think the Haslms will try anything to fix this except the toughest decision of all, the decision to not fix it because it ain't broken.
When the right move is to stay the course and not jump at flashing lights.

They didn't even wait 3 days to gut the Qb. room when they bought the team, if I recall correctly, and that was some years ago. There is a lot of history of the NFL to study, the answer is in there.

You obviously have no idea that TE's can work their defenders to parts of the filed that take them out of the running play. Not my problem. The problem is when your opponents have no reason to play their safeties deep and keep them up on the LOS to put more defenders in the box which is what our opponents are doing all day. That's how football works. I've never seen ANYONE but you claim there were 9 or 10 defenders in the box. On some occasions there were eight. That was when we had 3 receiving options going out on routes. With one on one protection that leaves eight defenders in the box. When we had 4 receiving targets it left seven men in the box.

When you have three receiving targets it leaves eight defenders in the box when you don't respect your opponents passing game.

8+3=11

When you have four receiving targets it leaves seven men in the box. If you never feel the need to drop your safeties, they play the run.

7+4=11

You seem to think that if you take your coverage man to the right when you run to the left that doesn't take him out of the play even if he's only 8 to 10 yards downfield.

I think having 3 TE's in the game forces the defense to stack the box. If it is a run play and the TE stays in to block then there is a stacked box. If the TE's release inmto a route then it become dependent on the defenders ability to recognize pass vs run.

"The best receiving threat the Browns could put on the field was 3 TEs, 2 wrs and a RB."
5 yard penalty,illegal formation,too many men in the backfield.

pit...click the link below and count...

pit, tell everyone what you see...

pit, you might do better if you review the video of the game rather than try to recall or remember.

You might have to back the video up a few seconds to see the Rats defensive alignment ....



The Browns run game was shut down because the Ravens stacked the box with 5 rushing most of the time and anywhere from 1 to 4 DBs and/or LBs backing up their front 5 rushers. Much of the time, this second line of the Ravens D lined up only 5 yds or so behind the 5 DLine rushers. The Ravens with 8 to 10 defenders within approx 5 yds of the LOS felt they could limit the Browns run and the Browns short passing game...and they pretty much did just that. How many the Ravens rushed depended on the number of WRs or TEs the Browns lined up as potential receivers.

link

Great post. 2 things jump out. [1] Baker is bad under pressure. So stacking the box and run blitzing on the way to the QB creates a double whammy of issues, especially with a liability at RT. [2] We absolutely don't have the receivers who can beat one on one coverage consistently ... we don't have receivers who can get open so an aggressive team does not need 2 deep safeties.

If anyone watched the Vikings game last night - you saw at least one of the Vikings Receivers with acres of separation on virtually every play. Justin Jefferson is a top WR in the NFL for sure. He was "open on every play". Osborn I have never heard of - and was open on many plays. We don't seem to have a scheme that allows the WR to get open like that - and we don't have the personnel either. Like Collingsworth said - Njoku is our deep threat. While he can occasionally stud out - he ain't no Justin Jefferson.

I would say that EVERY QB is worse "under pressure" than without. When your RT is a backup OG and your LT is struggling with the pass rush...pressure is a certainty. But here's the difference that never gets talked about...the underlined portion above. When you are under pressure and your pass-catchers cannot get open...what are you supposed to do?

When was the last time the Browns executed in the scramble drill? We simply don't. That's half of Lamar's effectiveness and a big part of Mahommes success...same with Murray. Josh Allen benefits from not getting smoked with the number of 50/50 balls he throws when things break down. As 888 said, last night the Vikings had receivers open with regularity...and they were without Theilin.

If you want to see how Keenum performs with our lack of weapons, just envision Kurt Cousins last night with a backup OG at RT and no one to throw to.

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
Browns are signing veteran punter Dustin Colquitt, whom Atlanta released this week, to their 53-man roster.

We are SAVED LOL

Your link took me to an NBA page. But I'm guessing since you told me I may have to "back it up a few seconds" that your predicating your game analysis on a single play. Anyone who has ever played football knows if you run a route in the opposite direction the running play goes in, you take your defender with you. As such you take him out of the play. This isn't complicated.

was't he a previous plater?

Yes but the presentation of the food on the plate was excellent!

He is the brother of our previous punter.

Colquitt is who The Hammer replaced, right?

Good signing.

Ahhh, I should have read everything before posting.
Maybe good, maybe not good.... eh, it's better than signing nobody.

Colquitt is going to come in and not screw things up. That’s the most you can ask of a punter under most circumstances.

The Colquitts are NFL royalty when it comes to punting. Father Craig had a long career, and two sons Dustin and Britton had some good years too. They're like the Zendejas family is to placekickers.

Fun fact:

The Zendejas family has a restaurant near where I live and it is probably the worst Mexican food I’ve ever had.

Their brother, Chi-Chi Zendejas, had a pretty good Mex restaurant before that pesky virus outbreak from tainted produce put him out of business.

Trusting my memory here (not always a good thing) I believe he was averaging over 47 yards per punt this season for Atlanta, and he has been a holder on kicks for years.

I hope Colquitt stays on with us. I don't trust the Hammer at all. Inconsistency.

And based on our injury report going into Sunday's game, I'm surprised we won to be honest. We could have used Newsome for sure.

Sounds like we'll enter our game with the Raiders much stronger with our Covid "injuries" over, and Newsome hopefully over his concussion protocol. I don't think we were too banged up after the Ravens game.

Newsome was greatly missed yesterday; Greedy got owned by #12 most of the afternoon.

Just thinking out loud -

The team doesn't look as well coached this year. Do posters generally agree with that? More penalties. In game coaching issues and struggles. 12 men on the field (after a time out). A hands team that has a FB that doesn't look at the ball. Too many cute plays trying to trick NFL teams who are too well coached to buy the fake....

So I was wondering/speculating - KS as a younger and technology embracing, analytics using HC ... he might have benefitted last year? He was able to prepare and do more with less time for traditional team activities/coaching than many of the stalwarts?

This year it's more a level playing field. That advantage has gone... It seems we are struggling more. OR ... is it as simple as our QB got really badly busted up in week 3 and nothing has been the same since? IDK the answer.

The attention to detail & discipline is definitely lacking. We had another 12 men call this week, after taking a TO to avoid one in the last game and then still getting it AFTER the TO. That is as clear an indicator that from coordinator on down, people aren't knowing their jobs.


One of Steven Wright's jokes that I reference all the time is "Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it."
I think the middle of that joke is where Stefanski and his staff is, currently. This is THEIR learning curve and growing pains..... hopefully, they're all actually learning from it instead of looking at a 'W' and blindly thinking everything is ok.

Obviously there is more to it than this, but last year was a freakshow in terms of the hoops we had to jump through sometimes ("Guy named Blake", all the WRs out for that one game, etc) and we seemed to still execute really well and no breakdown in discipline. With that in mind, it's difficult to explain the discipline issues.

He is still a young head coach for sure. He is currently 18-11 in regular season games and 1-1 in the playoffs. That ain't bad at all. I think the Baker injury has hurt the team but this team has been stung by the injury bug all season long. As fans we have expectations for our team. I think as players/coaches they have even higher expectations. Pressure is higher on this team to produce than last year. Hunter vs hunted mentality so to speak. Yesterday was not pretty in the 2nd half but how much of the offense especially with the lead was not available to the team with Njoku and Harrison out at TE? with Hunt out? Heck we have a back up right tackle for the rest of the season. The Ravens wre banged up but so were the Browns. If this teams wins 3 more ugly games I will be really really happy!

Yeah, it really ticked me off yesterday to hear about Baltimore's injuries and basically nada about the Browns.

Well there has to be a reason why the Ravens lost… it couldn’t be that the Browns just won.

Last year I thought we were supremely well coached. This year not so much. We do have more penalties and other teams have us playing left handed. It’s not nearly as easy for us to make splash plays. Bootlegs/misdirections are taken away. Run game isn’t as smooth.

To be fair, their injury situation is much worse than ours and ours is bad.

We did. We played just well enough in the first half to outweigh our putrid second half performance. And that's all it takes to get a W.

j/c:

And no Troy Hill too, apparently.

Bingo and spot on ! As I have said over and over again. Ski has taken the Baker out of Mayfield .

But only during the second half yesterday, right? So did Baker do so well despite Stefanski during the first half and so poorly because of Stefanski in the second half?

I'm not picking sides here, especially since you're in one of your tunnel-vision moods with this, but you DO realize just how simple it is for exactly that to happen, right?
If Stefanski goes ultra conservative like he in fact did, it definitely hinders how the offense runs and how everyone plays.

j/c...

I would really, really, REALLY like to know how our audible protocol works and what kind of options Baker has when he steps to the line. Has anyone ever offered any pertinent info where this is concerned?

I asked that during the game when baker didn't check out of a run against a 10 man box...it was ridiculous and was obviously a loss on the play

I don't have anything concrete as confirmation, but I've read where he is very limited. Two plays are called in and that's all there is too choose from. When you hear him yelling some catch-phrase, that is them switching to the other play; usually calls of "REWIND" or "KILL" or something like that take them back to the original play. If neither play is good, then you're stuck with the lesser of two evils.

Kill, kill always results in a run play being executed.

Baker did express in his post-game presser that they went "conservative" in the second half. Wish he hadn't gone there, but "it is what it is."

We were too conservative and it almost cost us the game. I want to know why the NFL referees are helping the opposition and NOT throwing the flag when a DEFINITE penalty was committed. Video exists of a referee on the ONSIDES KICKOFF coached the Baltimore players to get closer to the line....preventing a running start, yet did not throw a flag due to this obvious breach. It would have wiped out their recovery......something is fishy and we keep getting the shape end of the stick. Go Browns!!!!

I posted that video, probably in a different thread though.

This is directed to you, MGH and Prp about penalties and discipline.
Another difference this year to last year is fans and the whole stadium experience.

That disrupts, communication, focus, added stress, vision, etc.

I am not saying it’s the main reason, but it has a piece in the whole pie.

To date, that hasn't been their M.O.
They've been pretty studious, and the analytics won't allow them to hide from their deficiencies.

I really think that these growing pains are stemming from all the injuries, forcing them to improvise with personnel, game-to-game matchups, etc. This team is not the team that played KC in Game One. If I take the long view of things, I could see where this season will actually help, as disappointing as some of these games have been.

It really is crunch time for a 2021 playoff run. And even as lackluster as some of these games have been, this team is one game out of first place. To me, that's pretty remarkable.


.02

conservative ...pass pass pass punt...is what i saw

Agreed they seem capable of self reflection and honest evaluation. Doubtful they blindly think everything is ok. Also agree I think this season has been greatly impacted by injuries. But then that is absolutely part of every team's season every year. Learn and improve!

Regards to the clear philosophy - that I assume is analytics driven - that with a big lead, you are more likely to lose by continuing normal/aggressive play calling -vs- conservative play calling, reducing clock time for the opponent, reducing opportunities for big plays by the opponent at the expense of giving them softer coverages and nothing over the top....

The issue I see with that - especially for a young team - especially when you are dominating like we have in multiple games that where we let a big lead slip to a single score as time expires .... It is preventing the team from gaining momentum and confidence. It prevents the team from refining and perfecting the bread and butter plays, routes, play action etc that the team will need in other games later in the season. The result of the long drives we seed to the opponent is a loss of confidence by the D. A loss of momentum. A loss of the thrill of dominating. It gives the other team momentum. . . . The number of times we have clung on unconvincingly to a lead due to the conservative philosophy has done more to undermine confidence after a win than the potential benefit of walking of having given the opponent a true butt whopping. Just how I see it. This year and last.

Another potential angle: People have claimed Baker is mentally weak - the truth is the opposite in my opinion. When he throws a pick. He doesn't go into a shell. He comes out swinging with the same determination and focus as before the pick. When we threw a pick vs Ravens - Baker wasn't suddenly bad afterwards. And taking a 40 yard heave on a 3rd down play that results in an interception is really no different from an Punt by the Hammer. It might actually be a net gain.

Anyway just my .02 back at you.

I'm actually not. Baker had a great first half. He blew chunks in the second half. What I realize is that you can only blame the passes delivered on the person throwing those passes. If your players play worse because they don't like the coaches game plan, that's on the players. You either give it your all on every down or you don't. Blaming the coach because your claim is that the players are mentally fragile is a non starter for me. It does change the game strategy, but if changing the game strategy effects the accuracy of your QB, the issue isn't with the coach.

So your saying Baker screws up on purpose because he dosn't like the play .. Were is this Fragile player thing coming from ?

Baker runs the play he is given to the best of his ability. Shoot, he can't even audible out of it ..I just don't get where your coming from with this stuff.

Honestly I don't think he is saying anything. There is no clear message there. There is no debate. And it's very very simple - the plays called absolutely impact the accuracy of the QB because of predictability and how compact the defense gets to play. But that would be labelled an excuse. . . no reasonable discussions are allowed when we discuss Baker - it's ALL Baker's fault. It must be, because to bring up any reasonable point about influences that affect Baker are clearly taboo.

I've explained it's not all bakers fault. I've also explained that people can't act like he doesn't carry the bulk of the burden when he's the one throwing the ball. Short passes have a higher completion rate.

I like to add to this. It became a learning experience for the coaches. Everything fell into place last year. Sure, there were injuries and such last year, but this year came with a lot more problems that were not easily fixable. We always reference players having the sophomore slump. It's the same for the coaches.

At the beginning of the season, many stated "on paper" this is a pretty good football team. But, you must play the games. Personally, I am disappointed, but I am also excited. This team weathered a lot of injuries and a few unhappy players. Yet, the depth kept the team in the hunt. Since the return, we have never seen this level of play. I am anxious to see how this ends. I see a solid team in the making. Berry needs to keep adding players.

It's December with four weeks to go. We are still talking playoffs and even division champs as a real possibility. How many times before Berry and Kevin came to Cleveland can we say that without laughing!

j/c…

Interesting. Not like Colquitt did anything amazing. He was decent except for when it counted the most on the last drive in the 4th quarter.

End of an era… Goodbye Scottish Hammer. Good luck at your next stop, Jamie Gillan.

It was a good story, but the Hammer just didn't perform. He probably cost us a game by dropping that snap right to him.

Yep, it was a good story. He even got a beer named after him. However, after that first game when Colquitt pinned the opponent deep a couple times, you just knew the Scottish Hammer's time was over.

Cheers to Jamie!

so, we lose Newsome and we get Phillips (who was returning from IR too) and Hooper back.

The Browns win the Raider game if they get a first down on 4th and 3, when they had momentum, all 4th quarter, and the Browns had a whole 2 minute warning time out to come up with a play on offense.

Nobody Choked more for the Browns this entire season yet than whomever decided not to go for the 4th down conversion, and a sured win as the raiders didn't have any time outs, and Greedy Williams had already given you the ball back.

With First place in the Division this late in the year and all wild card tie breakers against you, You had ONE PLAY, to get a First down, and be in First Place and maybe just win the div. and get in the playoffs.

IN this entire season, the Browns have not had a bigger CHOKE than deciding to punt there. And it was their own decision entirely.

Maybe they should have tried that motivation tool with the Scottish Hammer.

Gotta hand it to the headliner! This might have gone better. Sorry, Maria.

j/c:

No organization can go into 2022 thinking DeShaun Watson is their answer at QB without knowing whether his legal problems are civil or criminal. There's just too much uncertainty, and that doesn't even address the PR baggage Watson brings with him. For now, this is just an idea, and as the saying goes "an idea is not a plan".

Hahah

If Watson is cleared of any wrong doing then any team with any questions at QB would be stupid not to try to get him.

That would certainly elevate the cost to acquire him. I don't believe there's any way the Browns even think about paying some huge price for a QB until they see how 2022 plays out. I don't doubt that they may very well have contingency plans in place in case 2022 goes south though. I mean that's what good businessmen do.

If Watson is cleared and the price is reasonable you trade for him (if you are one of about 26 teams).

completely agree. I said it in the moment, and actually almost started crying cuz the Browns curse wasn't broken after all. After the game I threw out my Browns hat, and unsubscribed from all Browns media. I'll forever be a Browns fan, but I just can't sit and watch the same movie I've seen my entire life. Too stressful.

There is simply no reason not to go for it there, if you lose swinging, so be it, but we don't even try.

I mean, maybe if it were 4th and 10 you can punt, but the reason it was 4th and 3 is because we ran then screen pass on 2nd/3rd down... why call those plays if you're not gonna go for it on 4th???

I'm just sick of us making losses out of wins. I hope things turn around but I'm afraid if we don't find a way to win out or get lucky and steal a wildcard spot this franchise might be done as we know it.

watson is done.

If even 5 or more teams hold sincere interests in Watson, there will be no such thing as a reasonable price.

Then you don't trade for him.

Which is why I've said all along that if and when those in the FO decide that Baker isn't the answer it's far more likely they would address it in the draft. I don't think they'll pay the price for a Watson or Wilson on a trade deal. Hopefully it never comes down to that.

DeShaun Watson Would not Fix your team! Aron Rogers Would not fix your team!
Not enough is being made of the fact the Browns, by virtue of the Raiders giving you a chance, with one play, to get one first down,
AFTER the 2:00 minute warning, and the lead and the other team had no time outs,

Instead of winning the game and getting a first down, with their offense, went and Punted possession of the ball Back to the Raiders,
AND,
It was after getting possession off an interception.

(Because the Browns decided to punt, the organization, is not ready to win consistently in the National Football league.)

AND! They will never have another season where they have more talent than they did this year, so if you want to DREAM about Watson, or Qb Rogers coming to your team, or Russel Wilson, coming to your team to fix it,
THEN KEEP DREAMING, because all you would find out,
IS, THIS, not trying hard enough to demand WINS organization, would RUIN THEM TOO!

The 2021 season was over 2 times before. It was over when they lost the Chargers game.
It was over again when Kareem Hunt decided to do pushups in the end zone after a touchdown, (don't know why, but just knew that was going to be a death Nell,) and Nothing has gone well since.

And Now the 2021 season is over a 3rd time, because with 2:00 to play, and no timeouts, the Browns, with momentum, and One Play and 3 yards from a WIN, chose to Punt, which would and did end in Losing.

Organization, not ready for prime time. Offense not ready for prime time, Not showing the ability to use talented tools on offense, listening to outsiders giving self serving advice too often

Here is a thought. Can the Browns win 4 games before next Halloween.

On October 31st, (Halloween), of this year the Browns lost to the Steelers 10-15 to drop to 4-4 in the standings, at that time they loses to the Chiefs, Cardinals, Chargers, and Steelers, and Wins over the Texans, Bears, Vikings, and Broncos.

Now, From Today, given that the Browns have a final 3 games of at the packers, at the Steelers, and Home to the Bengals,
and a particurlay hard list of opponents for Random weeks next year, I think it is a legitimate question,
Can the Browns win 4 games before next Halloween?

(We can assume they'll win 4 games eventually, even if it takes them multiple years to do it, but, in the next 11?)
(Oh just all negative today)

I agree. He will never play in a NFL football game again.

If the Texans traded him he would have played this season.

Then why wasn't he traded huh????

Inside Deshaun Watson trade buzz: QB eligible to play should Texans deal him, but many worry that may not hold

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...al-him-but-many-worry-that-may-not-hold/

Because teams were afraid his status would change.

(A "TINY" part of my thinking thinks, and has from the beginning that DeShaun Watson was railroaded by billionaires. ) Now, what happens when people get railroaded by billionaires? First, they tick off a billionaire. Second, a lot of times they face charges of a sexual indiscretion nature, a lot of times they face multiple multiple accusers so as to not have one clear accuser to focus scrutiny on. And a lot of times they get "suicided" in prison, or "accidented" in prison, and sometimes some high tech government agency might be involved.
Now, (it is just a "Tiny" part of thinking that has thought that dude was railroaded.
I mean,
Obviously we have to believe the , the facts as presented, in American media, it's 2021 of course they can do no wrong. and Billionaires' they can do no wrong. And Corporations, they can do no wrong, and , (unnameable foreign nations,), and huge drug companies.
It's exactly as you were told
It's exactly as you read
It's exactly as it was presented in the American Media.

So, Obviously SuperBrown, He wasn't traded, because the Texans could get more for him than the trades offered. Believe That!

If he ever plays in an NFL football game again, will you,
make any stipulation, leave the board for a week, change your signature? anything like that, anything?

OH, my bad, the whole statement was 40% sarcastic, I just don't know how to hear SuperBrown sometimes. (I mean it could have been said in jest, or it could have been taken as genuine, I think it's about 40-60. (Like in the Movie "My Cousin Vinny" - so much of life can be re inspected in light of parts of that movie, it's amazing, but, like in the movie "My Cousin Vinny" when the Ralph Machio charater says the line " I shot the clerk, I shot the clerk" , he's not meaning he shot the clerk, he's meaning, "what are you saying, are you saying I shot the clerk?"
so it's obvious, he's not saying,
Watson will never play a NFL game again, it's saying, "Oh ya, OBVIOUSLY he will NEVER play an NFL game Again" meaning, "of course he's going to play a game again what are you nuts!!!

So, which is it SuperBrown?
(and how do I know that's not a bunch of ones with with a 20 wrapped around it?)

His status is/was HE AINT PLAYING BEFORE AND AFTER! He WILL be in legal battles for years and plenty of prison time to serve in between.

j/c:

Surprised his realtor isn’t showing him homes in the Warren or Youngstown market where the seediest massage parlors in the U.S. can be found!

Nah...he's buying Cowher's old house and opening the parlor in the basement.

A move that would even envy Bob Kraft.

He heard Doordash was going to start offering a "Therapeutic Escorts" category.

I am not a lawyer nor pretend to be one.

However, from what I have read he has not been charged with a crime yet.

There are complaints against him. If he is charged then things change. He has the right to defend himself.

Once a determination is made legally. The NFL will decide what they will do.

I am not defending him. Don't know what is true or not true.

I have no idea what the Browns will do in regards to Watson. Right now everything appears to fall under speculation.

To say he will never play in the NFL is speculation until he is proven guilty of something.

It is also speculation about any involvement of the Browns.

My guess is. He will play again but for what team? Not even a clue.

That was your question. Fact is he WAS able to play this season. The reason teams wouldn't or didn't trade for him is because they thought the NFL would change his status and he wouldn't be able to play.

The reason no team would sign him to any long terms contract is because of possible future legal battles and his status moving forward.

I have no idea what you're smoking but I hope there isn't enough of it to infect a large portion of our population.

j/c...

Just what we need, a kicker named Blew it.

A part of me hopes he's in place to kick the game winner against the Bengals to win the division.

Overcoming his own last name!

I'm just glad Shankopotamus Jones wasn't available.

That's so freaking stuid. That would be so freaking stupid if they did that.
Doesn't everyone realize that's what they did for about 22 years between, (Kosar-Testeverde) - and (Baker Mayfield)

Bottom line is if the Browns can't find ways to win with Baker Mayfield, or the others, then they aren't going to find an answer in the bottom of a (draft pick) glass.
The reality is becoming that the Browns as an organization just don't know how to play the game to win as well as the other franchises, and in my opinion, if they get rid of Baker Mayfield, because they can't work with his talent, then it will be just further embarrassment on the franchise.

But I said an almost exact same thing 4 years ago if I remember right, (4-5)
Guess I have to come to grips that the USA, and the East Coast, is never going to Not, bribe the refs, or bend the rules so that Cleveland never wins anything.
Do we need more evidence...

Green Bay Jumps offsides, (should be a free play on a drive that would bring the score to the Browns lead by 5, in the 4th quarter)

But when Green Bay jumps offsides, the Refs get so (scaredy cat butt hurt) that the Browns have a free play that they blow the whistle out of flinching.
Then, to cover for their falsehood, they have to lie and say the browns jumped.
(Dya ever notice how the Browns never get a "free play" on their offense, but the announcers say the privelaged teams, like dallas, pittsburg, and green bay, tell you about about 4 per game for their offenses?)

Now we just need to bring back ol single bar Nintendo "Player" as our punter and we're set. Super Bowl!

I approve of that

j/c...

I think this speaks to the OLine as much as it does to Chubb. I think the world of Chubb as a runner, but he still needs to get some clean shots through.

I was thinking the same thing. Our offensive line has been in shambles and still has been producing in the run game. Bitonio has been one of the best offensive linemen in the league.

Indeed it does.

While I do agree about the OL, I think we also need to consider that Chubb is one of the league leaders in yards after contact.

Actually it's all about Baker - without the threat of Baker burning the defense on any given play for a TD, Chubb would never have so many holes to run through

Chubb being elite really makes a huge difference. It's a combination of OL, Chubb and scheme.

news. the idea of defense winning championships can suck an egg!

Todays results are a referendum on the Browns offense under Kevin Stefanski!
If the Browns and their head coach, don't CHANGE----> their offense, they will stay in 4th place in the division, for the rest of the century.

Don't blame him !

If he ever wants to be a head coach he needs to go somewhere else to call plays. I’d expect Klint Kubiak on the staff next year if the Vikings clean house.

why would he go from OC in Minnesota to OC in cleveland?

Because he would like to be employed. Also, he and Stefanski worked together in Minnesota and his dad basically mastered the offense that we currently run.

If Stefanski relinquishes game day play calling duties?

I don’t see that happening (and it shouldn’t).

Please, I dont know why Stefanski should be calling plays. All year he has shown he is adverse to change. QB1 hurt, leave him in. When teams stop the run, Stefanski cannot adjust his formations or calls to the new reality. Between Stefanski and Baker, they have not gotten the job done offensively. So something needs to change and it aint just the QB

I think your blame is misplaced disproportionately on Stefanski.

it 100% needs to

OK.. SO the head coach is also the play caller who is in charge of the offense. If the offense is not working well, the blame starts with him!! Then you go down the line, next Baker, then the rest of the offensive players coaches..etc. Have their been injuries, covid..etc that have effected things.. YES.. but the offensive output starts with Stefanski!!

We all know the offense revolves around the QB in the NFL. The offense goes as the QB goes. Based on several different standards our QB was among the worst in the league. Based on the film and advanced metrics our offense should have been much better if the QB was better.

I’m looking forward to next year when the QB is healthy and/or their is a new QB running the system.

OK... Who kept putting hurt Baker out on the field? Who kept stating how Baker gave them the best chance when everyone NOW is saying the harness is a problem??

I don’t see how playing Baker if he gives you the best chance to win is a problem.

Actually almost every poster on this board said that a hurt Baker gave us a better chance to win. Almost every poster on this board knew and stated that the harness had at least some impact on Baker throwing the ball. But they also said it still was the right move to keep starting Baker.

Until all of a sudden they want to blame someone for it.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. There was a lot of unresolved discussion about injured Baker starting over Keenum. Especially when Baker had the leg and was limping all over the field.

There was a lot of "if KS and the docs say he's gtg, then I guess he's gtg", but (IMO) that's not the same thing you're alleging.

And I "tried" to make the argument that being healthy enough to play doesn't mean you should start. Especially at QB. That being able to play and being able to play well were two different things. I certainly remember well the resistance I got about that from the vast majority of posters. I remember comments of how Baker at 70% was better than Keenum or that he was the best option we had. There may have been some discussion the week or two he was limping around. But then that's not what we were discussing here. If you look at what I was commenting on......


......it was about an ongoing situation. The harness being the focal point.

Right

but IIRC those posters fell back on the reasoning that if KS started him (since it's coach's decision), then coach thinks he's healthy enough to play well. Docs say if he's healthy enough to play, and that (apparently) only came into play for the 1 game.

Again, this is my recollection of the conversation(s). I could be wrong.

I believe when people think back they often times don't remember things as happening exactly the same way. I understand that. And while I don't totally disagree with you, I think you may remember how Stefanski said he was basing his decision on what he was seeing in practice as well. It was said that Baker was performing well in practice and I never saw anything that contradicted that.

I would find it hard for a HC to go against what the doctors say, what the player says and what he saw in practice. I mean I'm not sure what other factors there would be in making a decision to start a player.

Bakers problems have been more mental than Physical the last several weeks.

j/c...

The Browns finally broke Doug.

Bingo. And the mental problems are way harder to correct. Baker at the very least needs competition next year.

If true, which I don't know, and yet, won't concede, this is a far bigger indictment on his future with this team, IMO. However, it's seems to be pretty clear his injuries have been an issue and his poor mechanics have been noted, time and time again.

Like I said more mental than physical. Just speaking the truth.

The shoulder brace he's had to wear all season that both Alex Van Pelt and Bernie Kosar told us makes accuracy on certain throws very difficult isn't mental.

There are posters on this board I often question when they post something like this. I consider it purely speculation on their part. You are not one of them. Thanks.

Passing up wide open receivers for sacks and interceptions is mental.

Did the harness affect Baker's decision making and not seeing wide open receivers on a consistent basis?

Not being sure you can make a throw because you're wearing a brace that inhibits a normal throwing motion is a classic crisis of confidence that is mental. IMO, the genesis of his inability to perform at the level we have all seem him perform before is the injury.

If this is true then he’s not a starter in the league. You have to be able to play banged up.

I don't mean to insult you, but I think you might not understand the mechanics between the lead arm and the throwing arm. (Its important - ask a pitcher.)

I am not referring to any mechanics. I’m saying if you lose your confidence or ability to throw to open receivers because you are injured then you are not mentally equipped to be an NFL starter.

But you are ignoring the core reason for the loss of confidence: the injury. Once he's healed, if he still has the same problem, you can say its mental.

The coaches should have a good idea what the problem is. I trust their judgment after being with the players for two years. I like Baker as a person and think the works hard. My only interest is for the team to be better. If it is determined that the best way to make the team better is to bring back Baker healthy then I am all for it.

I fear the injury was not the problem.

I felt we kinda moved away from FB having a big role in our offense this year (please correct me if I'm wrong). If so, and if we're still going to have a FB on the roster, I wouldn't mind it being Stanton instead of Janovich. Stanton could have a bit more to his game.

add: Janovich was on the field for 92 snaps this year, and 172 last year. Stanton had similar # of snaps from year to year. I'm not really sure what to make of these numbers.

Coach Stef wants him for the Wildcat role on 4th and short in the red zone.

Browns sign 8 players to future/reserves contracts

link


One of the first orders of business for NFL teams in the offseason is to handle the players who ended the season on the practice squad. Those players are not technically under contract to the team any longer.

For the practice squad players or street free agents the Cleveland Browns and other teams wish to keep around to at least start the 2022 offseason, they can sign reserve/future contracts. They are effectively commitments by the team to bring the players back with a chance to compete for spots in the coming season.

Cleveland signed eight of those to reserve/future contracts on Monday:

TE Miller Forristall

OG Hjalte Froholdt

TE Nick Guggemos

CB Nate Meadors

OG David Moore

FB Johnny Stanton

OT Alex Taylor

DE Curtis Weaver

All will be welcomed back to Cleveland once the offseason activities kick off later this winter.

Glad to see Curtis Weaver signed. He was considered a steal in the draft for the Dolphins until he about ripped his big toe off. Then we stole him from the Dolphins, who had to waive him for off season injury rules that I don't understand. This guy was highly rated, and if he is recovered from that injury, we might have Tak's replacement.

You say you trust the coaches, the same ones that let him go out and play week after week?
I don't quite understand that perspective, if he has sucked that bad for so many weeks, and the coaches didn't pull him, then why do they suddenly know what they are doing?

Again, Baker said he could play, the medical staff said he could play, and he was practicing. The only reason to bench Baker was because of his poor play and that wasn’t going to happen.

Baker would say he could play no matter what the injury was.



...with minimal risk of further injury, not that he could perform anywhere near 100%.



With a red jersey on and no chance of getting hit/sacked. The people he faces in practice are getting paid NOT to hit him.


There was another reaon. To allow him to heal and get back healthy as quickly as possible, once it was obvious he couldn't perform in games. This would have been best for everyone involved.

It seems like fans are attributing Baker’s poor performance to his injury much more so than what the Browns are willing to attribute when evaluating his body of work this season.

Here are Andrew Berry’s comment from his Dec. 1st press conference:

On why it was important for Mayfield to play through injuries and not rest before the final five games of the season:

“I think it is a couple of things. I probably should be clear here: For any player in terms of whether they are on the field or not, it is really three separate things. No. 1, are they medically cleared from the perspective that they can’t do anything harmful to their health or significantly harmful to their health. No. 2, are they medically cleared in a manner that would allow them to function in their role on the field and play at a winning level in their role on the field. Then No. 3, does the player both by feel and honestly by evidence throughout the practice week, can he perform all the requirements of his role on gameday. We will never put a player on the field that does not pass those three criteria, whether it is our quarterback, an offensive lineman, a member of the secondary, a punter or a kicker. That holds through for Baker. Our expectation is when guys on the field and players’ expectation of themselves when they are on the field, if they are there, they are going to perform at a high level. The second piece of that is the reality is we are in December in the NFL, and nobody is 100 percent. It does not matter what position you play. Everybody who is there is not only healthy enough to be out there or healthy enough to play but healthy enough to play at a winning level. That is our expectation for guys when they are on the field.”

https://www.wkyc.com/amp/article/sp.../95-18de03a0-ed62-45e0-8710-2796a1e34287

I'm probably getting too far into the weeds here (so ignore if that's the case), but I find that first part (and all of it really) kinda hilarious. We're talking about pro football. Conklin was medically cleared for the elbow only to get a way worse injury to his knee. Shazier nearly paralyzed himself. There's the articles about the linemen putting weight on however they can (usually in extremely unhealthy ways). The simple act of making the team and being on the sideline is doing something harmful to their health.
So from that perspective, not sure how you can make the determination that a guy in a shoulder harness won't be hampered enough in throwing the ball. It requires the Doc and Coach to measure (among other things) his tough-guy-ness.

Now that I wrote this all out, it doesn't seem very productive towards the overall conversation. Baker has more issues going on than the injuries can explain... I just find the back and forth about whether he should/shouldn't have been out there and the team's official line kinda silly.

One problem here. He wasn't and isn't "going to heal" until he has surgery. No amount of rest alone would have gotten him back healthy.

well, it doesn't matter what fans do or don't want... we have Baker next year.

I hope it is a smoke screen. Baker aint the guy.

They are going to say Baker is the guy until he is not the guy. He also may be the guy.

Russell Wilson is at the top of my list. We will need some serious WR talent added and $$$$$$ to have any chance to get him.

Right now Cousins looks like the perfect fit.

Th grass always look greener on the other side. Even when it's not.

OK, we will keep Baker like you want and go 8-9 for 10 more years.

Cousins isn't taking the Browns where they want to go - the Super Bowl. Honestly, I could care less about the playoffs. The goal is the Super Bowl. That's how the team needs to be built. And Baker may not be the guy, but I think we all know that honestly Cousins is not. So for financial sake, there's no reason to bring him here.

Like we did with a healthy Baker last year? You do remember 11-5 don't you?

Nevermind.

"Baker sucks" isn't an idea.

If I were the Haslems, ... Andrew Berry is nothing special imo. Andrew Berry, if compared to the Browns previous 5 GMs, is just a guy.
If I were the Haslems, and it comes to, well the question becomes,
Would I fire Andrew Berry before he waived Baker Mayfield? YES!! Andrew Berry is the most replaceable, well Any Browns GM has been the most replaceable GM/cog in the wheel in the past 20 years.
Easier to replace a GM than a coach, easier to replace a GM than a Quarterback, easier to replace a GM than a Coordinator.

How many times, have we seen a GM, try and be smarter than the whole league and then the Browns
end up with NO Quarterback and get stuck trying to pretend Dishone Kiser is one. For 16 games.

Lemme fix that.
Baker ain't the guy you want to cut and end up with Dishone Kiser 2.0 while he goes to Pittsburgh and beats you for the next 18 years.

We know who ain't the guy. The guy in NY, he ain't the guy, he's proven it for 2 years. The guy in Carolina, Darnold, wasn't the guy he proved it for 2 years. The guy in Indianapolis, Wentz aint the guy, he' proved it over 2+ years. Mariota aint the guy, and Tua ain't the guy. There are 2 guys in Denver that ain't the guy. The Jets don't have a guy, and the Jaguars have a question of a guy who they are in the process of ruining.
The Seahhawks, have a used to be maybe never was the guy. And even with a paycheck, the Vikings don't have "for sure" a guy, in fact Cousins is more often not like a guy than he is one.
The Bears and Lions Don't have a guy as good as Baker either, The Cardinals, and Chargers, only Wish their guy was the guy, but Baker is better. The Saints and Eagles don't have a guy either
The Cowboys guy is often worse than Baker, the Steelers don't have a guy,

IN FACT, there is an Entire NFL of teams that want to Take Baker away from you, and grab him AND THEN, they would finally have their guy!
And if the Browns are stupid enough to let it happen, then they don't care about the constant losing in any way whatsoever.

You are going to find 300 people, to 1, telling you a different message.
BUT, 300 people to 1, are invested in the success of another NFL team at the expense of the Browns, and those 300 don't want to see the Browns have any nice things.

There you go again, putting words in people's mouths. Where did I say that he wouldn't have had surgery and rely on rest alone? I gave no timeframe for his return other than "get back healthy as quickly as possible".

Just Clicking

All the hate for Mayfield is baffling. We went 11/5 last year with a healthy Mayfield. If Baker is Healthy he is our best chance..

There was this Buckeye loss about (5) years ago to a Baker team...an attempted flag plant...and fans with grudges, allegiance to the grail of Buckeye and memories like elephants. I'd peg that as THE reason why half the fan base hates the guy.

Well he can't "come back" in February. Whether he had his surgery then or now he would still be ready for any team activities next season. So to think you meant otherwise didn't make any sense.

And everyone hated Braylon because he played for Michigan. Good God.

I’m seeing some mock drafts with us taking a QB in the 1st round and also retaining Baker. I actually can see that happening.

I think the top ten picks would have to REALLY fall a certain way for us to do that. I don't think Baker's body of work is such that the FO would ignore a slam dunk move to improve the position, I just think it's highly unlikely one of those will present itself.

Yeah, I know a few people that can't separate the entertainment of football from it's effect on their life.
I get being down after a loss or bad season, but I know a couple guys who just become miserable. You'd rather talk politics with them than football, it can be that bad.

I was thinking that maybe Corral could drop because he just had that leg injury and Qb's are pretty sketchy this year anyways. Taking any of these qb's top 10 would be risky, so we actually might be able to take a flyer on a guy like Corral. Not sure the extent of the injury, might be just a sprain but I'd be surprised to see a QB go top 10, but I guess if one did it would probably be Corral

yet, he led the Browns to 11-5 and that's not good enough? Yikes, people can be dumb if that's the reason

But somehow we all loved Steve Everitt.

j/c...

Hey genius...how many Buckeye fans do you run into in Smyrna TN?

Quite a few actually. As well as Browns fans. The job opportunities here are fantastic and there's more people where I live, which is close to Nashville, that are from out of state than there are from here.

People said the same thing about Braylon because he was from Michigan. But you see, you are using the old and tired excuse. Because as much as I want Baker to be the answer, he was stinking up the joint. Fans had high expectations for this season. Just read the season prediction thread. Those people were OSU fans when they made those predictions too. The frustration of Browns fans because of their own expetarions are at least partly their own fault. Those are the reasons you were and are hearing so many people bag on Baker. Because the vast majority of those same people were singing his praises at the end of last season. And they were OSU fans then too.

I will say this, as I thought it earlier when reading WSU's question: OSU fans are everywhere, as are Browns fans, and ESPECIALLY in areas like Nashville, Phoenix - those 2 come to mind as they are 'newer' major cities. They also have, due to so many move ins over the years, fans of every nfl team, and most major college teams.

As for Baker, Braylon - personally I don't care WHERE they went to college. I care that they do/did play for the Browns.

I mentioned this in the draft thread.

It is possible.

IMO they would have to love the guy and see great value at 13. All in the eyes of the beholder.

I still believe they will take a pass rusher if a good one is there.

At the same time I don't think the Browns will remain pat with the currrent quarterbacks on the roster.

Thom Darden was one of my fave Browns way back when. 3 time All Pro Safety who happened to come from UM.

are we really rolling 11 million over to next year on top of the expanded cap? that will give us around 39 million in space?

Damn you, Analytics!!

I am all for analytics. But this is more about being smart, understanding business, and knowing the NFL rules...oh, not having to pay for a franchise QB.

Most Browns fans are the same way. I know I am as well.

jc - wasn't sure which thread thisfit into best so putting it here


3 Browns moves could save team $30 million in cap space in 2022
Jared Mueller
Mon, January 17, 2022, 6:11 PM·3 min read


Earlier, we noted that the Cleveland Browns rolled over $10 million in salary-cap space from 2021 to 2022. That rollover boosted the team’s available cap space to $37 million but gave them only the 13th most cap space going into the 2022 season. The Miami Dolphins are currently set to lead the lead in space with a whopping $73 million.


The Browns have work to do on their roster for next year. They have stated they expect Baker Mayfield to have a bounce-back year but will need talent around him to do it. Given the struggles in 2021, it is possible that the team also shakes up the roster some.

There are three moves Cleveland could make to quickly add about $30 million in cap space. All three of the moves would come on the offensive side of the ball but Andrew Berry and company still could decide to make.

- ADVERTISEMENT -

The biggest move, both in terms of cap space and name value, is cutting WR Jarvis Landry. Landry has one year left on his contract and is coming off the worst performance, and health, of his career. While the Browns need help at receiver, it is possible that Landry and the team decide it is best for them to part ways.

Releasing Landry frees up $15.1 million in cap space while only counting $1.5 million in dead cap.

Continuing on with older veterans with some health issues, OL J.C. Tretter could also be cut by the team. Nick Harris looked good in his place late in the season and Tretter’s departure would save the team over $8 million in cap space while only counting $1.625 million against the cap. Tretter has been an important leader for the offensive line but his knee has limited him for a few seasons.

Tretter’s role as NFLPA president has also placed extra attention on his role as a player in Cleveland.

Finally, the third release is backup QB Case Keenum. While many are calling for more competition for Mayfield, not less, the team played their injured quarterback over their backup most of the year. They showed how they feel about Keenum and can save $6.5 million in releasing him while only counting $1.33 against the salary cap.

Combined, those three moves would save the team $29.85 million in salary-cap space. That would jump their available space up to $67 million and slot them at third in the league, based on current expectations from Over the Cap.

TE Austin Hooper could be released post-June 1st to save the team $9.5 million but cost them $3.75 million in dead cap space.

OL Jack Conklin is another name that could save the team cap space in the last year of his deal but his dead cap hit is higher than the team’s savings ($9 million to $6 million). The only other player whose departure could save Cleveland significant cap space is RB Kareem Hunt, $6.25 million, but that seems highly unlikely.



https://sports.yahoo.com/3-browns-moves-could-save-231144241.html

What do they call the Trophy for the most cap space?

The Browns treat offense, and the passing game like a Basketball team that refuses by rule to use a 3 point shot.

DePodesta through the Browns front office has a large analytics budget.

That means their analysis will carry weight.

Contracts, free agency and the draft are analytic pressure points.

All that you posted will be under serious evaluation.

Something else will be as well. PFF and QBR are measures that fall under analytics.

The Browns under Berry and DePodesta will evaluate quarterback performance under an analytics scope.

I have to believe that something will happen to the current quarterback room.

Case in point the 49'ers. Jimmy G was their quarterback. They decided he was ok but not good enough.
The San Francisco 49ers paid a hefty price to leap from No. 12 overall to No. 3 to snag Trey Lance in the first round of the 2021 NFL Draft.

The Niners essentially placed their future in Lance's hands, sending three first-round picks to Miami for the right to select the dynamic, dual-threat quarterback. San Francisco doesn't have a first-round pick until 2024 and is also out a third-rounder in 2022.

It is sure within reason that the Browns will be looking a quarterback in this years draft.

It won't matter who the Browns get if Stefanski is hell bent on finding a system QB. He might find that QB but what will they sacrifice to get him? Obviously, the first sacrifice is explosiveness and a lack luster passing game. The second could and very well would be future high draft picks. Finally, revamping the WR group outside of the draft - not a viable drawing card for FA's to a QB managed team rather than a chemistry driven explosive team.

I don’t think you understand how free agency works.

When the GM says "coach here is your roster go win games."

The head coach plays the hand he is delt.

The Browns have a dynamic runners. They invested in their OL.

You don't throw that away. You play the hand.

The offense we run is not much different than the 49'ers or the Titans. Both teams are in the playoffs and the Titans have the number one seed.
==========================================================================================

During the season when I heard AVP say basically we are not a good passing offense right now. He was honest.

Clearly passing was not the strength of the team. You can look at that from many angles. Personnel, injury, etc.

Now the off season is here. Everything shifts to the GM and his immediate staff. You evaluate the roster and formulate the best path to improve.

The roster will change. New players will be added and others will leave. Berry will make changes at receiver that is a given. I also believe that the quarterback room will change. I doubt that both Baker and Keenum will be there. One maybe gone. Maybe both.

Baker Mayfield says his torn labrum surgery was a complete success: ‘This is not the end of my story; let’s go get it’

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...and-this-is-not-the-end-of-my-story.html

Go get 'em Baker.

Could be.

Next year is the good QB draft. We may go for one this year, but my feeling is we stick with Baker. My guess is we trade down some to build picks and draft a QB next year if Baker flops again or has a asking price beyond his worth.

I do hope this FO is hoping Baker pans out while planning that he doesn't.

I think going with a healthy Baker next season is the most prudent thing to do for both sides. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for a better QB backup or even a QB that could step in and start if need be. If we see more of the same from Baker next year than it's time to look for a replacement. JMO

Same... and I agree with baleen... would like to see us stick with Baker this year to see if he works out but try our best to build draft capital for next year just in case.

It's the only sensible way to proceed.

This is what I’ve said a couple times.

Keep options open through FA/trades. Expect Baker to be back on his cheap contract and by not losing a bunch of draft picks through trade. Use the saved money by keeping his cheap contract to fill holes in FA.

Hopefully find a trade partner during the draft to pick up a second 1st rounder for next years draft (this is one of the reasons I was hoping to lose that last game = better value draft position). If Baker balls out, great re-sign him.

If not, should be a very strong QB draft class next year. Pick your QB or trade up for one with the original pick and the extra 1st rounder.

We could always get Famous Jameis Interception Winston...LOL

Drafting a quarterback is never a sure thing.

The history of the draft makes that clear.

One year or another makes no difference. Unless you have an elite young qb like Mahomes; you should always look to improve the position.

Matt Corral, Ole Miss (6-0, 220 pounds) ...
Kenny Pickett, Pittsburgh (6-3, 220 pounds) ...
Malik Willis, Liberty (6-1, 225 pounds) ...
Sam Howell, North Carolina (6-1, 220 pounds) ...
Desmond Ridder, Cincinnati (6-4, 215 pounds) ...
Carson Strong, Nevada (6-4, 215 pounds)

These are the guys considered to be the best prospects in this draft.

The Browns pick at 13. None of these guys are expected to go early. Kiper has Washington at 11 taking the first qb.

The Browns should evaluate these guys like any prospects. If one grades out as the BPA when they pick at 13. He must be a consideration.

Forget all else. If they really like one of these players and that player is there forget the year.

I thought Wentz would be a sure HOFer...how is that working out...lol you can never tell again it would be one of the biggest mistakes by the Browns if we got rid of Baker...the best !B on our roster in a long ong time

Thats the thing. The bar for QBs was.set very low when Baker
Was drafted. Baker is clearly better than the last 22 failures
Before him. But the question is, can Baker ever get to the upper
Tier of NFL?
Being better than the past doesnt make you the long term
Answer for the present and future.
Right now he is the 3rd best QB in the North.
I dont think Berry and Stefanski are totally sold on him
I.think of the organization.was totally on board he would
Have got a 2nd deal like Allen

I am 100% behind Baker getting this year to prove what he can do.

Nothing would please me more than to see him play great. Then sign him.

However, you hope for the best and plan for the worst.

The Browns must be prepared to move on if Baker gets hurt or plays bad football.

You don't want to be Berry with pick 13 and five years from now be saying "I wish I would have."

Yes we have other holes to fill. But if the BPA in 2022 at pick 13 is a quarterback and you love the guy. Draft him.

Look at the 49 'ers, and GB both drafted quarterbacks.

I agree. Roll with Baker in '22 and hope he does well but prepare in case he doesn't. Prudent thinking. We have some weak spots on the roster; WR, D-line and LB, that need attention. Let's strengthen those positions up.

I agree....it's just that next years QB class looks much stronger. I doubt any available at 13 would be BPA, and I sure wouldn't want to trade up. But....you never know how some might be ranked.

One advantage in drafting a guy this year is it might light a fire under Bakers butt, and we would already have a guy in pocket if Baker feels he is worth way more than we feel. If we wait until next year we might be a bit over the barrel and need to trade up. Other teams price in trade would go up, knowing we want to move on from Baker.

I am just not a fan of this years QBs. I would take one in the third round, if they are in the value chart. I just think the best course of action is to keep Baker for another year, draft a mid rounder or bring in a capable backup. If Baker fails, then the capable backup could be the bridge for next years drafted QB. Or you could just pick one up off the FA scrap pile next year to start the season (i.e. not these specific players but a former starter like Dalton/Fitzpatrick/Trubisky etc. ) and have the draft pick sit and learn.

Sure the draft isn't a definite, but picking up a scrap pile FA QB isn't either.

As Peen and I said, next years QB possibles look stronger with a lot more talent. Just to name two from the class: the growth of Stroud and Young from the beginning of the season to the end was amazing to watch.

But we definitely both agree that I would LOVE if Baker balls out next year. I don't believe in his vision/seeing the field, my opinion is it's one of the reasons that Step used the empty backfield a decent amount. But i really hope my opinion is bs on that and he is awarded another contract b/c of his play next year.

Someone recently ripped Carson Wentz, and I understand it to a point. He can be inconsistent. But he threw 27 TDS and 7 picks this year. Where would we be if we had a QB who did that? We could be a No. 1 seed, maybe.

Only QB I would take this year would be Sam Howell if he is available in the 2nd round. I do feel that Kenny Pickett is the best QB coming out this year but the gap between him and Howell are not that great probably just the 2 inch taller issue separates the two.

I would sign Mitchell Trubiski in Free Agency on a 1 year contract as an upgrade over Case Keenum. If Baker got hurt again this talented team needs a veteran back up that can win some games next year.

Sign Howell if available in the 2nd round to be long term back up and possible replacement if Baker's struggles continue.

Hope is Baker proves to be the Browns long term starter and then in 2023 Baker is #1 and Howell is the back up.

Neither am I. There are a few guys who might be good, but for me anyway, no guys I would call sure 1st rounders. Next year looks way better for QBs...assuming they go out which almost everybody does these days.

Baker is who he is already. You still have to find out...why should I when I already know who he is. Must I apologize for nowing already??? yeah yeah I know Im condescending cause I know already....

I agree. I could see drafting a qb this year with the plan for him to me more or less a back-up and anything better would be a bonus. It's time to move on from Keenum. He isn't going to develop in to a top starter, so I would rather go with a younger guy as a back-up who might be able to be better. I would rather see that more towards the 3rd round, but I wouldn't be upset if it was the 2nd round.

We do have two 4th rounders. That gives us some trade up ammo if desired. The two 4th rounders could get us back in to the late 3rd round or the 3rd and 4th round picks back in to the 2nd round. I don't need to get draft value charted to death. My point is we do have some wiggle room for a trade up. We also have room to trade down and gain picks for next year. That is what I think will happen.

jc
Maybe I missed it in the 10 pages of this topic, but how much of Baker's issues were the result of poor play calling? I recall on just about every game wondering why we are running the ball at will and get to the red zone and KS calls some out of left field bootleg or some such fancy play or we are killing them with the passing game and try to run against one of the top run defenses and settle for a field goal or goes for it on 4th down and turns the ball over on downs. I'm sorry but KS needs an OC and keep to being a Head Coach, his play calling baffles me frequently.
I'm not saying Baker doesn't need to improve his vision and accuracy. It was evident his play fell off after the injury. Just my $0.02 worth, but with inflation let's make it $0.186.

SWD...good question that will likely never be answered.

So far, we have not heard anyone from the Browns admit to 'poor play calling'.

I have the same questions, and it was not just a few games in only last season. Playoff year we were healthier and nastier and had more success ITO of play calling results. But the NFL has book on us now; you saw us stopped, run and pass, regularly; and it was often in similar ways.
Not to rationalize and explain away our repeated shortcomings, but you are undeniably your record, it stands as proof of your analytics, choices, all judgments and decisions. They are validated or not by wins and losses. We came up short too often IMO. Game plan, personnel packages, players, plays, adjustments are part of analyzing failure.
I guess my frustration is my assessment that we did not seem to learn from our mistakes enough. A lot of lousy play seemed to crop up weekly, sometimes more than once a game. SWD, I also wonder why we abandoned the run after it got us to the red zone, scratched my head about why some exotic play got called. KS seems to place a premium on tricking the opponent with some bizarro call, usually the worst situational game decision. His game management and OC execution are wanting. I am willing to risk VP, regardless of how spiffy swell they say their relationship remains. This must be an ego thing IMO; it can't be win driven. BM needs help in judgment as well as mechanics and has proved it. Might as well address a number of issues. Part of that is the play palette from which we choose. If your choices fail, then you missed on the winner while deciding, and we certainly could do more to challenge folks. We ignore parts of the field and 3 tights isn't the answer.

The injury situation handcuffed our playcalling, I believe. Looking back, it looks like our options were throwing a rookie out there at RT before he was ready or starting a backup guard. We also shuffled our Oline quite a bit (again, due to injuries). Not to mention injuries at the skill positions. I think that partially explains the not-good-enough playcalling that seemed to pop up more and more as the season progressed on (nobody was complaining about playcalling when we were putting up 35+ points early on).

Lots of different issues owned by lots of different people. Some issues compounded with each other.

I don't think anyone knows.

The proof will be consistent play by Baker.

Not you or anyone else including Baker knows.

I support Baker and I want him succeed badly. However, there is enough evidence over four years to have some doubt.

He is going to get 2022 to prove himself.

The Browns on the other hand have to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

J/C

I sort of fall under the "if not Baker, then who?" category. I hate that he was injured this year which leads to a 5th year "prove it" year, but that seems to be what it is. A healthy year 4 Baker would have put us so much further ahead in the evaluation (obviously), but hypotheticals don't matter at this point. I don't see Rogers or Wilson coming here. I like Carr, but his availability will have a lot to do with what LV does with its coaching hire. I believe that Cousins is better than Mayfield at this point not not enough to justify a trade and/or that salary. I'd be fine with drafting a guy like Pickett (big, tall, strong, etc.) but I don't think 13 is the place, and I'm guessing he'd be gone before our round 2 pick.

As far as trading Mayfield, I don't realistically see how we could get much more than a 3rd (maybe even that's too much) for a QB with his inconsistencies and coming off a shoulder surgery.

You nailed it oob. People always bring up all of our injuries when talking about Baker and how it impacted him but then never speak about how those same injuries limited the play calling.

I suspect we ( the board ) will have the Baker vers KS fault on the Offensive whoa's this year up into mid season next year . Posters will line up and take sides as usual ..

Looking back , KS did not do a very good job of improvising. KS had a Gamr plan for the season and then a Game plan within the Game plan on any game day. Did that make sense ? There were really three missing pieces that KS couldn't account for . ( lack of WR goes on the FO ) .. Baker /Hunt / Conklin injures were to much for him to handle. Hunt loss was bigger than most of as realized , and Conklin was the icing on the cake.

Actually, I do not think our Left Tackle Jedrick Wills was 100% all season after the high ancle sprain in the first game.

There is a lot of animosity and snark on this thread, so I want to start off by stating that this is a serious question, and not me trying to be antagonistic.

I have not seen Howell play, but see he is listed at 6'1". Baker is listed at a little over 6', so the height difference is not much. I know these things tend to get overstated a bit, but that is done across the board. So no matter what the actual heights are, I would think Howell is at most an inch taller than Baker. Is that a concern? We have seen Baker get a lot of passes batted down, and I think one of the reason behind him sailing some other passes is him trying to avoid the batted passes.

Agreed, watch the play calling the first two games compared to the rest. I'm only going off memory now (so correct if wrong), but we were seeing more creative/gimmick plays last year and the first couple games. What I mean by that, is the reverses to Jarvis, the reverse pass/throws. I don't remember if we were using TE screens then or not.

Yes, height would be a concern but I just think he is the best of the QB's that could be available in the 2nd round. I like his arm much better than the QB at Liberty and Cincinnati. I think the best QB Kenny Pickett at 6'3 is the best but he possibly will be gone before 1st round pick at 13.

The Browns could ruin an 8 foot tall quarterback.

Oh, there you go, we agree again. Twice in just a couple of months.

doubt all you want. Just cause you feel that way why must I and you state the FACT is the evidence??? You don't know as much as you think you do. I could care less how much yiou say you support Baker...woopity do. The evidence is there.
from rookie season on up - we just have not built on it and too much to CHANGE him rather than use him properly.

Got to run.