Since the free agency thread have been closed or about to be closed (10 pgs long)...I combined both the Browns and NFL free agency news.

Hammer...what I was researching was Cooks performance in games that occurred in Nov/Dec/Jan..the cold weather months in weather conditions that might be similar to what the Browns play in during Nov/Dec/Jan.

I decided to use Cook's stats from 2017, when he was 26 and playing the Patriots and Tom Brady at QB.

Below is the break down..targets and receptions caught my attention...Cooks was targeted 54 times and caught 28 passes...catching just 52% of the targeted passes. Now this is just one season, his 4th season in the NFL and he may have improved his play in colder weather over the last 4 seasons...but hopefully the Browns take a good look at his tendancies.

..date.....team.....temp..wnd...tgts..rec..yds..td..lng..
..Nov 12...Denver...48*...5......11....6....74...0....27..
..Dec 3.....Buffalo...48*...13....3......2....17...0....13..
..Dec 17...Pitt........42*....4.....7......4....60...1....43..
..Dec 24...Buffalo...35*....7.....5......2....19...0....14..
..Dec 31...Jets.......13*...13....11.....5....79...1....37..
..Jan 13...Tenn......24*...12.....9......3....32...0....13..
..Jan 21...Jack......48*....3......8......6....100..0....31..

Mac, that's analyzing. I thought you hated analytics, yet here you are, doing it.

Does anyone know the Packers did not re-sign Corey Bojorquez?

The issue on a reunion is money, per Huber. The Packers lack the cap space required to make a competitive offer for a veteran punter.

Instead of using precious cap space on a punter that ended up finishing 17th in punting grade at Pro Football Focus and 24th in net punting average, the Packers will move on and find a cheaper option.

While Bojorquez flashed a big leg early in the season, he faded once the weather turned cold, and his coverage units often let him down on poorly-placed punts. He also struggled as a holder at times, compounding the special teams problems.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/03/16/packers-to-pass-on-re-signing-punter-corey-bojorquez/

The Packers had one of the worst rated special teams of all times. They probably don’t mind distancing themselves from any of their guys who contributed to the poor unit.

Their special teams were really bad last year. I heard they also moved on from their punter.

arch...that is simply something you assumed.

j/c:

Is this the thread where we are supposed to place the NO/Philly trade? If so, I really don't understand this trade from the Saints' perspective. I'm going to try and read something as to why they made this move.

New England won every game in November thru January in 2017 except the one played in Miami. If he helps us win, I'm not overly concerned what his stats say.

Plus, you have to consider the game plan aspect. Teams generally don't have a ton of success throwing in bad weather games. It's not something specific to him. Fortunately, we also have a good running game.

I think 2020 might be an applicable year to look at, considering it was the one he spent playing with the QB that he would have here. In his first year with Watson, their rapport grew as the season went along. Cooks capped it off with a 166 yard, 2TD performance against the Titans in January.

link

vers...as you know, there is an entire forum dedicated to the subject of the upcoming draft.

If you are referring to this story/subject...Jeremiah, Brooks: What Eagles-Saints draft trade means...

What do you think..?

Philly fleeced the Saints by taking advantage of the Saints mentality of devaluing future draft picks.

A legend returns!

I mean this sincerely, so please don't flame me....

Was this guy really so bad? I do get hit in the head a lot (adult league hockey goalie) so am I just forgetting a ton of horrible kicks? I don't recall this guy being Zane-Gonzalez-losing-3-games-in-a-row bad, or anything like that. He was a rookie, as well.

I sure hope we draft a kicker late - Dicker or York, perhaps.

McLaughlin sucked, especially in the latter half of the season. One could argue with a better kicker last year, the Browns would have made the playoffs.

Bull-Dawg...if you are "not interested" in finding how Cooks plays in weather conditions similar to what Cooks might face here in Cleveland, especially late in the season when teams are pushing for a playoff spot...cheery picking his stats from the 2020 season might impress some...but not me..!

Cooks played in 15 games in the 2020 season and "all were played in fair weather". The one game where the Texans played in typical conditions for outdoor games in Dec (13th)...Cooks did not play. Cooks helped the Texans win a total of 4 game in 2020.

No doubt Cooks performed well during 'ideal' conditions..but the reality of the type of weather he might face in Cleveland is not equal to what he faced during his 2020 season with the Texans.

Cooks performance during his 1 season with the Patriots, Cooks ranked 8th in catch % over the all games, catching 57% of the passes thrown to him.


..33..Dion Lewis.......91.4%..
..34..Rex Burkhead...83.3%..
..28..James White....77.8%..
..80..D.Amendola.....70.9%..
..13..P.Dorsett..........66.7%..
..87..Gronkowski*+..65.7%..
..15..C.Hogan..........57.6%..
..14..B.Cooks ..........57.0%..


NO ONE CAN SAY they didn't know about Cooks possible issues playing in colder weather...

I'm curious..............is this yet another attempt to throw shade at the Brown's Front Office?

mac....hault the deep dive into the Brandin Cooks analytics. It appears he may be staying put. If nothing else, I do not see the Browns giving up a 2nd rd pick for him.

I'm curious... I read a post the other day claiming a poster was discussing the tone of a posters comments instead of addressing the content of the post. I'm certain I saw that you liked that post....

In this post of yours in reply to Mac - in what way are you addressing the content of his post? As I said - just curious. I thought what Mac highlighted was good football talk, especially for an AFC north cold weather team. I haven't seen Cooks play much since he left the saints. He was a top WR back then, I've no idea about his skills now, and if they deteriorate in cold weather I'd say that's important for us to consider.

I would be happy to have Cooks on the team now that we lost OBJ and Landry, but I wouldn't give up a 2nd round pick for him.

Deep throws have a lower completion percentage than dumpoffs to RBs. In bad weather, deep throws are affected the most. That's not a reflection on Cooks. Those are the realities all pass catchers deal with.

Milk...it wasn't but a couple of weeks ago that we went through a similar situation where social media declared a deal would not happen...and we know how that turned out...lol.. ..

It seems that some teams just seem to do the opposite of what some predict.

I'd be surprised to see the Browns give up a second for Cooks if HOU is steadfast with that in return.

We knew the Browns were willing to give up a ton of draft capital for Watson.

Good because he comes with a $16M price tag.

I really like this trade for Philly. I don't like any of the qbs in this year''s draft class. The 2023 QB class looks to be awesome. There are several guys that are going to be highly coveted. I know that I am OSU homer, but CJ Stroud is really, really good. I think he is much better [in regards to transferring to the NFL] than our previous QBs, and yes, I am including Justin Fields. Stroud is more accurate, but what really stands out is how he can go through his progressions much faster and better than the other guys we have had. Guys like Bryce Young and Phil Jurkovec are going to be hot items. There are also several others who are thought of at this point in time.

This trade gives Philly additional ammo to move up in the 2023 draft, which is important to any team looking to upgrade their QB.

I don't think that would be entirely accurate for us. The Texans already paid him this year's roster bonus. I'm also not sure if the 2.5M restructured portion of his contract would come with him or is there for accounting purposes and the Texans are stuck with it (I believe the latter, but I'm not sure.) His base salary for the year is 12.5M and he has a 1.5M escalator for 1,000 yds and the playoffs. If he were here and had 1,000 yards with us making the playoffs, he's probably worth ~14M. If we then didn't re-sign him, we'd probably get a decent comp pick for the contract he'd get coming off that type of year. If he has less than 1,000 yards, 12.5M isn't bad for a proven, reliable deep threat #2 receiver.

I'd definitely like the move better if we would keep our 2nd rounder somehow to address the DL.

That's still more money then we want to give Clowney, but yes, I agree that we do not want to give up our 44th selection. I would prefer we go after Fuller who is a FA.

I'm not a huge Fuller fan. He is always hurt and his hands are a bit inconsistent. He is a very good deep threat, though. I hope we bring Landry back and draft a WR. This year's class is loaded w/good WRs.

For me, that would depend on Fuller's health and how much money he wants.

Honestly, I'm fine with rolling without Fuller or Cooks. We can make do with the receivers already on the roster if we have to.

DL definitely needs addressed.

Yes, the injuries are why you don't want to pay too much, but he has only played less than 10 games (7), once, outside of last season (2), with Miami.

With out Hopkins in 2020, Fuller became Watson's number one receiver and he had a reception (Ctch%) of no less than 69% w/ Watson as the full time stater.

Thats the thing though, if you go into the season with the current WR room, this
Offense will have issues scoring points. Defenses will double Cooper on every obvious passing
Down. The running game will see loaded boxes.The Browns need a bonafide deep threat at WR.

I have such a low tolerence for place kickers.

They are so important and I wish they were not. Justin Tucker makes me ill. He is so damn good and he wins so many games.

I would like for the Browns to sign to like 5 free agent place kickers. Take them to camp and pick one. If he faulters. Let him go and bring in the next one. Until one of them proves he can be relied upon. That is how Tucker caught on.

Chase McLaughlin? All he did was prove he was unreliable.

Punters don't bug me. Place kickers. Damn. Can you make 45 yarders and under like all the time? Please.

Don't get me going.

At the beginning of the off-season this was my strategy for the Browns. Load up for next years QBs, because I didn’t like any of the current draft class. Next years, looks like it will have some top talent.

This is perfect for Philly. They can evaluate Hurts for one more year and then go many different ways depending on the end of year production/evaluation. This was the same process my opinion was for our team.

But I am definitely excited about the outcome we ended up.

The most yards per reception Fuller averaged in 6 seasons is 16.6.

DPJ averaged 21.7 his rookie season and 17.6 with broke Baker last year.

DPJ had 597 yards last year. Will Fuller had less than that in 3/6 of his seasons and has never broken 1k.

We don't know what we have in Schwartz.

Njoku averaged 13.2 yards per reception last season and can also help stretch defenses.

If they're doubling Cooper, They're not doubling Njoku and DPJ. Let them stack the box and get roasted on play action.

We can probably also work in the screen/jet sweep game to Jakeem Grant.

j/c:

That could be said every year before Cooper's arrival since..I dunno...Breshad Perriman?

At this point, I think our hands are tied regarding making more big moves in FA (watch us make another announcement like 5 minutes after I hit 'post'). I think if we want a deep threat WR, we're going to have to maneuver in the draft.

It's too bad that Baker's ego forced OBJ out of town. He was an excellent deep threat. He proved it before he got here and then again, after he left here.

You've been back - miraculously turning up as soon as Baker was going to be an Ex-Brown... You've spammed the board with more negative Baker posts and comments than anyone on the board including your latest "Bake Show" thread to revive and needlessly continue the Baker criticisms.... And here you are with revisionist history trying to create an entirely provable lie and fake narrative about OBJ who is on record from multi reliable sources as never wanting to be here. You left for a while but I guess a leopard doesn't change its spots.

OBJ forced OBJ out of town. He allegedly was wondering about getting out of Cleveland right after he landed.

I agree that OBJ wasn't blameless leading up to his departure. At the same time, can you blame him really? His career has been rather adversely affected by the Browns. He made the Pro Bowl his first three seasons in the league. He averaged over 1,300 yards and double-digit TDs. In year 4, a Browns DB obliterates his knee in a preseason game, and later he hurts that leg gruesomely which puts him out for the season. He hasn't started for an entire season since then. While Baker's 6-7 rookie season was encouraging to us, it probably wasn't nearly as impressive to outsiders. We'd fired Hue and brought in a relatively unknown good ole boy to be HC. We weren't exactly the place to be, even without the emotional baggage. Throw in the fact that Cleveland is definitely not New York or LA lifestyle-wise. He was injured fairly frequently and when he was healthy and open Baker struggled to get him the ball.

Just going from recollection, but I think he started off the season really well, and his kicking issues came later in the season. I do not know if it was weather-related, or if he missed a couple and it got into his head.

Versatile Dog is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes
To football X and Os and talent evaluation.
He is a die hard fan of this franchise and the one I.like
About him, he isnt a homer. He calls like a umpire
Down the middle. No agenda

I think that perspective doesn't marry with some of the facts that have been established about how proactively OBJ was trying to get out of CLE and when... And it diminishes the impact of OBJ injuries and the KS offense which OBJ was part of. It also seems to suggest that any player on any team should be allowed to seek an exit from his team and contact if they are in a situation they don't like and if their performance is hampered by team mates....regardless of that, if you want to believe OBJ was justified in seeking a trade virtually on arrival, that's up to yoi... I'll repeat the narrative that Baker's ego drove OBJ to want to leave CLE is 100% false.

Thanks, but I'd rather just move on. He's not worth the time.

You and your personal attacks...again.

Not 100% true, but not 100% false, either. Baker was a factor, and perhaps the tipping point. OBJ had plenty of other reasons as well as I said.

I never said I liked the way OBJ left, nor that I'm pining for him to come back.

This isn't really a big deal and I will end my comments about the OBJ thing w/this. OBJ's camp has claimed that he wanted out of Cleveland because of Baker. They claimed that Baker would not throw him the ball, even in practice. They claimed it was due to ego and Baker needed to be the star. They also claimed that he was far too slow going through his progressions. Furthermore, OBJ has expressed at least some interest in returning to Cleveland. There are some guys I don't want to talk to on here, so I thought I'd explain my position to you. But again, it's not really a big deal because one guy is gone and the other is about to be.

I haven't heard those things from OBJ's camp. If their statements are true that explains a lot, especially the way the locker room backed OBJ.

Report: WR Odell Beckham Jr. requested trade from Browns last offseason

By Zac Wassink | Last updated 11/5/21
link


Browns insider Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com delivered somewhat of a bombshell after Beckham's release when she reported the veteran, who is celebrating his 29th birthday Friday, "asked to be traded multiple times, including in the offseason when he was coming off surgery to repair a torn ACL."

Beckham suffered that season-ending injury in October 2020.

It's been said the Browns couldn't move Beckham ahead of the trade deadline because no other buyer wanted to be on the hook for the reported $8.05 million remaining on his salary for this season, so it's safe to assume money was also an issue if Cleveland reached out to other teams about OBJ during the spring or summer months when he was still recovering from his torn ACL.

Whatever the case, Beckham and the Browns have broken up, and each entity will have opportunities to prove the other wrong moving forward.

Not much doubt about OBjr wanting out of Cleveland long before his father did Jr a favor with his video release, that imo was a coordinated attempt to get the Browns to move. Our front office had a half year to fix that problem and they allowed the situation to fester and spill over into the locker room. Dumb move by the Boys in the front office.

Also, OBJ was so determined to push his way out of Cleveland, him and his crew were will to do and say anything to force the Browns to move him...

No doubt that OBJ wanted out before this past season. The rift between Baker and OBJ started a long time ago. When your QB's ego is so large and he is so emotionally insecure that he didn't even want to throw OBJ the ball in practice, of course the latter wanted out.

It is also noteworthy that a lot of posters trashed OBJ's dad for what he did, but I doubt the articles on how Baker's wife trashed the Brown's WRs even made it to this board. Double standards by the Cleveland Baker crowd.

Additionally, Brown's players voiced support for OBJ when that all went down yet none have supported Baker. But, let's continue w/the false narrative that some have on this board.

I don't think the "boys" in the FO are dumb. I think they recognized that their QB was a problem and made a good move to upgrade the position. I just wish OBJ was still here to play w/a quality qb.

In regards to proving the other wrong moving forward, I'd say OBJ's Super Bowl ring and him being the leading candidate for Super Bowl MVP and not one single team willing to pay Baker below average starting QB money puts OBJ miles ahead of Baker.

OBJ did nothing here, and it wouldn't have mattered which of our QBs was throwing to him. He was and is a diva who wanted out. Jarvis is/was twice the player and ten times the man. Baker might not have been the franchise QB we dreamed of, but he wasn't that bad and doesn't deserve the hate he is getting. But we all understand agendas around here.

j/c...

OBJ never wanted to be here. Jay Glazer reported as such. Glazer may be more reliable than Schefter.

Baker is an average to below average QB. Thrilled the Browns upgraded.

OBJ is a brand. Brands aren't built in CLE. I'm okay with this. Shame on Dorsey for getting fleeced by an absolute garbage GM in Dave Gettleman.

The story of OBJ being interested in coming back to CLE is based on an "eyes emoji" that he retweeted from a fan. The media ran with it for a conversation starter.

The Browns are better moving forward without Baker and OBJ.

obj and jarvis would love to show it was the qb

OBJ was never a fit here, especially with Baker. It was pretty easy to see right from the beginning; they never meshed.

I can’t see him coming back here, even without Baker

Something was definitely off. I can’t remember who it was that posted an awesome video prior to last season, but the video did a great job at breaking down how the two of them interpreted coverage completely opposite. He didn’t really lay blame, but just cited how the coverage shifted into a single high safety, for instance, and then OBJ would go for a 7 route, while Baker would throw for a 5 route or something like that.

Twice.

And in a manner of days.

Pretty sure Baker had virtually nothing to do with OBJ leaving.. More likely the ego of OBJ and his Father.., OBJ would be worthless this year again given his injury..

We don't need a #2 WR that's not going to be ready for TC due to another injury. Pass on OBJ.

OBJ is easy to figure out..he has a track record..!!.

If jr is happy, he plays well...his home is in California and he never wanted to play in Cleveland where their recent claim to fame was a 1-31 record. I always thought he wanted to be close to home and with his buddies in LA and where he could better handle his off the field business agenda...nailed it.

If jr is "unhappy", he can be a very divisive figure, finding someone else to blame for his lack of production, playing the victim card, manipulating the locker room and the media to his advantage. Everyone was witness to the kind of crazy behavior Ojr was capable of, on and off the field, playing for the Giants. Also, Jr's off the field business agenda had become a growing priority and playing in Cleveland was not a plus for Jr.

Dorsey screwed up BIG TIME, bringing someone like Jr to Cleveland at a time when the Browns were trying to develop a young QB. Mayfield was popular with the fans and beginning to land some endorsement contracts and the media wanted to discuss Mayfield. That did not sit well with Jr.

Just like in NY, Jr had a difficult time sharing the spotlight with a popular QB. So, we saw a repeat of Jrs NY performance here in Cleveland and the current front office allowed the situation to continue and grow, failing to act on Jrs desire to get the hell out of Cleveland...it affecting the locker room and season.

No way do I want anything to do with Jr back in Cleveland..he is a 29 yr old receiver who has the knees of a 40 yr old and his record indicates that he can be a "team player"..only when he wants to be.

I disagree on one point. I think Dorsey bringing OBJ here helped bring a feeling of legitimacy for the team and FO in the eyes of the rest of the sports nation. It was a huge story on all the major sports shows. It was a sign to the league we were trying to change the losing attitude. I think it helped us recruit other top FAs.
The rest of the OBJ drama was on brand for OBJ.

j/c:

This board has always written its own version of history. OBJ is a bad guy and Baker is a good guy. Yet, their actual teammates voiced support for OBJ and none have for Baker. In fact, the reports are out there that Baker was a problem in the locker room. But, none of that matters. It's the dawgtalkers version of history that speaks the real truth. LOL

OBJ *IS* a bad guy in this case, there is absolutely, 1000% no debate to the fact that he NEVER wanted to be here and ALWAYS wanted out, and NOWHERE have ANY reports of Baker being a problem in the lockerroom shown up here... and pretty much *everything* Browns shows up here, *especially* on the divisive topics. Basically, the ONLY thing there is, so far, is you manufacturing some things here and there within the past couple of days and spouting totally unsubstantiated stuff as fact.

The only thing I’ve seen or heard about Baker in a negative way were the comments Jim Donovan made about teammates not being happy with him after the week 18 game.

OBJ publicly stated many times that all he wanted to do was win and he was willing to do whatever it took to achieve that objective. So last year in the off-season, with the Browns the media darling that almost everybody had making a serious playoff run and potentially competing for a super bowl... he asked to be traded. So much for just wanting to win....

And I heard rumblings of trouble in the locker room following his trade but it wasn't because Baker was acting up or being unprofessional, it was because so many of the younger players just adored the OBJ personna. I have not heard a single thing about Baker not putting in the work, about Baker being disrespectful to other players or bad mouthing anybody, or anything like that. If you have, I'd be interested to see it.

Another thread down the tubes.

Topic Free Agent Signings.

Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow a Mystery
Today is a Gift that is why it is called the Present.

Better fit - OBJ or Andre Rison?

Ah, yes. Andre Rison: the last piece of the championship puzzle that year.

Good times.

According to the "Trade Chart" which is used by NFL teams:

https://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php

The first overall pick is worth 3000 points.

When you total the picks in the Watson and Wilson trades. They are very close to 3100 points.

So in the end what we gave up in picks to get Watson was basically equivalent to the first pick in the draft.

I would make that trade seven days a week to get a 26 year old Watson.

Thats interesting. And I agree, however the rookie contract in that case would be much nicer to our cap 🤣

Well, not that I agree or disagree, but those are bean counters. I don't trust bean counters, as they only see numbers.

Perfect example: Where my wife works, her department was deemed (by the CFO) as a money loser. They shut down the 3rd shift of that department, and wen to only first shift. Now, her department was "returns and replacement parts", you know, customers that bought the product but there were missing pieces, or in most cases, parts broken.

The chief bean counter looked at the numbers for her department and said "that's a money loser, shut it down". What that bean counter didn't realize was, it was needed.

Wife has now been, of her own volition, putting in 60 hour weeks on first shift. 15 of those hours are 1 1/2 times her regular wage, the other 5 are twice her regular wage.

And the bean counter is still upset that cutting 3rd shift has resulted in higher costs for the company.

What he doesn't get is, that department is a necessity for the company. He just sees the expenses involved, with no revenue.

Bean counters do just that: Look at a computer, with no knowledge of the "why's".

Wilson? Mac Wilson? I am not sure how that factors in to anything.

Russel Wilson I am guessing.

Ok...I guess I am even more confused.

The trades to acquire Russell Wilson and Deshaun Watson cost the equilvalent to giving up the first pick in the draft

Am I making myself clear?

I am not a liar. But, you do you. Adios.

Except you know what you are getting.

If you swing and miss on a first pick qb it can set you back three years or more.

I just saw the discussion on "Move the Sticks". At the end Bucky Brooks said he thought that the price is justified and it could cost more and still be justified.

Dan Orlovsky's belief is there is no quarterback that he feels plays better than Watson. He believes that there are like eight top guys that you can win games because of their play.

j/c...

I don't get why there seems to be no interest in Jarvis, Clowney, or Harrison.

Now. Before you just said Wilson. We did trade Mac Wilson. At least the way I read it was you were trying to somehow bring him in to the Watson trade.

At any rate, I like the trade and don't think we paid more than necessary no matter if you were a bit unclear or I was confused when reading your comment..

No problem.

I just thought it was interesting how it came out. When you look at the deal that way.

You make the deal IMO. Wilson was not coming to Cleveland. From a pure football perspective it puts the Browns in contention.

I think Jarvis wants to be paid like a top 7 WR. In his mind he is difference maker on the field
But he is really nothing more than a possesion WR good for a gadget play once in awhile

Clowney I think is overvaluing his worth.he wants to be paid like a DE that can get.you
12-sacks a year.

Harrison is a bit surprising though.

I don’t know either, but I’m glad. I’d like all three back at a cost efficient price. Completely forgot about Harrison until you just said it

Seems like teams might be waiting until after the draft at this point in free agency.

As far as Clowney goes, I'd expect him to wait and sign with a team after OTAs and mini-camps are over.

You are on point. I think there is interest, but at this point all the focus is on the draft, and it is that way for all teams.
first, they want to concentrate their attention on that.

Second, the draft might impact their need for a FA signing. And free agency is all about needs. Teams don't go out and sign the best free agent available like they often draft the best player available..

I'd be curious to know if the Baker decision is holding up possible moves, especially if they have to eat some of his contract this year. It might alter how the FO would prefer to allocate money annually on multi-year deals?

That as well, but maybe not all that much. Something tells me Berry and crew are expecting to pay Baker and are working the plan with the dollars available.

When that clear up, bonus money!

The longer he sits the lower his value becomes. If they end up paying Baker this entire season they lose him after this season and got nothing in return. That's a lose/lose proposition and every FO in the NFL knows it. They should just swallow their pride, realize it was themselves who put them in this position and nobody else. Take what they can get before they end up getting nothing.

It pretty much has no other way of being than to be a factor; until/unless he is traded.
He is on the books this year whether he sits or gets cut, unless another team trades for him. That is a large amount of cap tied up right now.

There is the $9.5M in cap space coming free on June 1 from the Hooper release, though. That, with what we currently have, should be enough to take care of Clowney if he's up for returning here.

Same as last year, though, I don't expect him to do anything too quickly. He seems to like to take his time and not sign later in the spring/summer.

We only won 2 games by multiple TDs last season. It's easier to hunt sacks when the other team has to pass. Clowney still had 9 sacks, and had the 4th highest pass rush win rate in the league. link I don't think a 12 sack season is out of the question here, especially with Myles on the opposite side. With the cap going up, he's likely to have substantial offers from some teams, if short term. Maxx Crosby only had 8 sacks last season, with a lower pass rush win rate, and got a 4 year, $93M extension.

If you were Clowney, how would you price yourself? Hopefully, the having Myles on the other side and having a solid secondary behind him factor in to his decision.

Clowney wants to go someplace nice and warm and get paid.

I can't see Clowney getting a deal near what Crosby received. Crosby is also nearly 5 years younger. I think Clowney gets a one or two year deal. I would not want to sign Clowney for more than two years, another one year would be ideal.

2021 PFF Grades:

Maxx Crosby

Overall: 91.4
Run Defense: 76.7
Pass Rush: 91.8

Jadaveon Clowney

Overall: 66.5
Run Defense: 62.8
Pass Rush: 69.1

Clowney’s injury history is likely what is causing him to be unsigned. My guess is he just plays on one year deals the rest of his career.

I am not surprised about not having Clowney signed. Clowney is meticulous in his choices...and he usually waits things out...Maybe he wants to see what we do on the DT front...which I think is hurting more than the DE spot...I think we are probably still near the top of his list, but he also thinks he should be paid more.... similar to money he was looking for when signing with Tennessee...That is my guess...

I think Both Jarvis and the Browns would like to work something out. It just may take some time to do so. Personally, I hope they do. I like his lockeroom presence and I think Watson would help with his production numbers...

And yes, I also agree with the Draft aspect of this...most teams are in Draft mode and will look to reevaluate FA after the draft...

Highly doubt we did anything remotely close to breaking the bank, so this is a big win for us.

I like that we brought him back. We need a 3rd safety and he knows his role. I like the way he plays with emotion. I was told that he led the league in penalties so that needs to be cleaned up.

I thought Harrison was a goner for sure. Bringing him back on a one year deal is pretty great for everyone involved.

MJ Stewart was better.

I thought Stewart played real well down the stretch as a safety. Thought he was horrible playing corner. I'm surprised he only got a one year 3 mil deal from Houston.

YUCK

As a 3rd QB for the off-season I'm okay with it. I bet come September he will be on the PS or gone.

Probably replaced with a mid to late round pick?

I like Harrison Glad He Is Back

I was just thinking about Harrison .......... lol

Good to know we have a wildcat QB for those situations where Stef doesn't want to run a "regular" gadget play rather than handoff to Chubb on 3rd-and-short. Yippy-ki-yay.

camp arm

Meh...

I think it precludes us from having to make that pick. I like Josh Dobbs. He is a perfect 3rd guy and I wouldn't be surprised if we use him in other ways.

Actually, this solves a potential problem the Browns could potentially face if Watson is suspended.

If Watson is not available for say 6 games and the Browns would go to their #2 Brissett...but who would back up Brissett.? That is the question the Browns were facing. So they went out and got a QB to be the backup to the backup based on the Watson situation.

Obviously the Browns feel that Mayfield does not intend to be a participant in such a plan, to cover for Watson's off the field issues, so they were forced to fix the potential problem. Also, since teams are playing a waiting game to see if the Browns will just release Mayfield, the Browns are determined to find a way to reap some value for Mayfield by trade.

One last comment..Dobbs is smart..an aerospace engineer major, wonderlic 29... athletic/excellent mobility...the knock on him is his arm.

He fills a need and has some value...

Browns Free Agency Slog Could Continue Another Two Months
Pete Smith - Yesterday 9:27 AM

No team has operated at a slower pace than the Cleveland Browns have this offseason and it could continue into June.

The Cleveland Browns have been patient this offseason. Patient to the point where someone can both marvel at their temperament in negotiations and want them to hurry up and fill out their roster already, but this process is likely to drag out until June.

Trading Baker Mayfield is certainly a priority for the Browns. The Browns appear inclined to rollover Mayfield's $18.8 million salary into 2023 for the sake of cap flexibility, so they can wait until July or August to trade him if necessary.

The Browns still need to fill out the rest of their roster, which could include three defensive linemen, another receiver and another safety, enabling them. Currently, the Browns have approximately $20 million in cap space with another $7.5 million coming courtesy of designating Austin Hooper a post June 1st release.

This helps explains the patience from the Browns, operating largely out of necessity. Yes, they have some money, but it needs to stretch to address their roster deficiencies. As a result, the Browns have put offers out to players who are likely hoping for more, resulting in the stagnation. As players continue to get signed by other teams, the Browns might represent their best offers, increasing the likelihood deals get done.

The Browns can continue to use void years to sign one-year deals for free agents, but any dead money they must pay in 2023 should be balanced against cap space they intend to rollover. Ideally, they would rollover more cap space than than they have dead money in 2023 as it would increase their overall pool of money to operate. If the Browns plan to roll over all of the money from Mayfield after he's traded as well as the money they will get for Hooper, that would give them a little over $26.3 million to rollover. That should represent the red line for potential dead money.

The Browns are already scheduled to pay a total of $19.622 million in 2023 for four players who will not be with the team. $7.5 million to Austin Hooper, now a member of the Tennessee Titans, plus $6 million to offensive tackle Jack Conklin, $3.75 million to corner Troy Hill and $2.372 million for linebacker Anthony Walker, all scheduled to be free agents after this season.

Subtracting the $19.622 million of dead money from the $26.3 million figure they might want to rollover, that would leave the Browns with a little over $6.6 million to use in void years before they cross that red line, which then reduces the amount of money they'd have to use in 2023.

Every dollar they spend this year is a dollar they cannot rollover and use to payoff dead money next year.

Should the Browns fail to attract Campbell and Hicks, they might have some money to spend at receiver, but the cost would be substantial. Heading into the third season in a row with an undermanned defensive interior would be a major disappointment. This year's NFL Draft doesn't have much to offer in terms of immediate help, adding urgency for the Browns to address it in free agency.

In the event these free agent options force the Browns to wait until this summer, they can't really afford to make a big move at another position. Save for acquiring Watson and Amari Cooper, the Browns have signed players to deals to relatively low figures. Backup quarterback Jacoby Brissett has been the biggest signing of free agency to this point, set to earn $4.65 million this season, accounting for 2.1 percent of the salary cap.

Maybe there the Browns have worked out some deals with a wink and a nod, perhaps even a handshake that are set to come to fruition in June. Until they sign the contract, both sides could change their minds. That could have an impact on the way they approach the NFL Draft at the end of the month.

Andrew Berry has said he approaches the offseason like an expansion team, trying to maximize opportunities and find good investments. That would suggest they would like to select what they feel are the best football players available. Should the Browns go into the draft with a bunch of holes on the roster, it will be a test of his mettle, whether he's able to stick to that philosophy and avoid chasing needs that might force him to sacrifice value.

The draft does put some pressure on receivers to sign because the talent and supply available is consistently high at a cheap rate. Beckham isn't likely to be impacted much given his recovery from his ACL, though he doesn't appear to be a realistic option for the Browns anyway. Meanwhile, Landry and Fuller might feel pressure to get deals done, avoiding the possibility of facing an even bleaker market in May and June, perhaps waiting until July to sign a deal.

That should embolden the Browns to stick to their numbers. They may want to see what happens in the draft before they sign another veteran to the receiver room, getting a look at them at in rookie and team minicamps before determining if they need additional help. If they feel good about a rookie they draft, they might be inclined to use that money elsewhere on the roster or roll it into next year. If Fuller or Landry wants to sign at their number, it further strengthens the receiver room, giving them another weapon.

The pace of the Browns offseason has been slow, first dictated by their pursuit of Deshaun Watson, now by their available cap space after acquiring him. The return to a normal offseason could further extend what is already an insufferably long process before getting meaningful resolutions for the remaining holes on the roster.

I agree. We don't want the back-up to be a rookie.

Not only that, both Dobbs and Brissett are on 1 year deals. This way we can look at both to decide on which we may want on a longer term deal to be the back-up. It also gives us some leverage in the event one of them wants more than we are willing to pay for a back-up.

As I said, I like Dobbs. I think it's a good move for a lot of reasons.

With almost 100M in cap tied up with 4 players in 2023 - Garrett, Watson, Chubb, & Cooper - all of which already have prorated bonuses in their cap number - cap management is at a critical stage. With the projected 2023 cap number being somewhere between 220M and 225M, the 4 players above with the current dead money at 19.662M gives the Browns approximately 120M tied up or a minimum of 52.33% of the total cap before any rollover. Of course, this doesn't include Ward, Njoku, Hunt, Greedy Williams, D. Johnson and others who become FA's in 2023.

It's even uglier in 2024 where Garrett 32.130M, Watson 54.993M, Bitonio 19.6M, Chubb 16.2M, Cooper 23.776M, and Teller, 13.926M (6 players) are going to account for 160.625M of the cap before any dead cap or contracts signed in 2023. All these players (and most likely any signed in 2023) are already sitting on prorated bonuses.

CURRENT PRORATED BONUSES
2022 - 62.056M - 41 players (avg. 1.514M per player)
2023 - 51.832M - 29 players (avg. 1.787M per player)
2024 - 48.070M - 19 players (avg. 2.109M per player)

The Browns answer to defensive tackle so far under Berry has been one year free agents.

He let Ogunjobi walk. Not a problem. He let Sheldon Richardson walk. Sheldon played hard for the Browns.

He signed Malik Jackson and McDowell. Sheldon Day was a depth guy.

Togiai and Elliott are the guys on the roster. Togiai should develop. Elliott? He needs to show something.

There are some good tackles in the draft. Devonte Wyatt is really good. I don't see him getting out of the first round. I like Perrion Winfrey. He should be there at 44.

I would like for the Browns to sign Akiem Hicks. He is 32 but he a good run stuffer. Winfrey can add some pass rush up the middle. We will need a four man rotation for depth.

Browns have to address the interior DL.

Good news about Harrison. I didnt expect him back AT ALL. And he wasn’t good last year .. but he CAN be a viable piece. Good signing

Damn...RIP Dwayne.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/09/dwayne-haskins-struck-by-car-and-killed/

OMG. That's terrible!

Gut wrenching. RIP.

Awful news

j/c:

I'm a little surprised there hasn't been much news on teams trying to sign D' Ernst Johnson.

JC...

Harrison- Didn't see him being retained, he regressed some last year...and seemed to be more erratic. Good news is, he knows our system/scheme...still rather young, and come draft time...we don't have to reach for a safety. Hoping we see more time for LeCounte (whom should be a lot healthier coming off that dirt bike injury)

Dobbs- I don't mind the signing one bit, I always thought he looked far better than Mason Rudolph...and seemed really strong in preseason action. Figure Watson will for sure miss some time, so Jacoby will be starting, with Dobbs as his backup in those games. Essentially with these signings we can focus more at other spots of need.


Dwayne Haskins- Just saddened by that news, way to young at only 24 years old...Prayers to him and his family.

Calais Campbell isn’t ready to retire just yet. Moments ago, ESPN’s Adam Schefter announced that Campbell is returning to the Baltimore Ravens on a two-year deal.

2 years 12 million for Campbell? I forgot he was even an option

Sad news about Haskins.. Just awful.

I expect us to sign some DL vets here before the draft .. Ingram, Richardson, Day, etc … Even if it’s not Clowney yet

Because they would be forfeiting a draft pick.

he was tendered with right of first refusal only, no draft pick compensation.

The Browns Signed Jason Campbell the 31 year old quarterback... ?? Oh that was in 2013!!!
I think the Browns did not sign anyone named Campbell in the last couple of days.

( The Ravens re signed DE Calais Campbell, and the Browns were hoping, wishing to lure him? A not very likely scenario,
and not the first result searching 'browns nfl Campbell signing. )

I think Dobbs is perfect for us. especially in the scenario of a suspension where he is the backup. If you look at how Berry builds his QB room...he seems to try to make sure we have similar QB's in terms of style. With Baker we had Keenum, Gilbert, Mullens,etc...While all different QB's the Gameplan doesn't change much if at all when one or the other goes in. Same thing happening here. Brisset and Dobbs are both mobile in the same mold of Watson and the gameplan will not have to change much in the case of injury. Obviously talent level and execution level is going to be different...but the style I think is what is important here. You don't usually hear of teams completely overhauling a QB room when they get new starters...Unless it is a new Coach... I find it interesting. Keenan certainly doesn't fit the style that Watson plays...add into that his salary and pretty easy to see why he was let go.

Glad to see Harrison back, he gets a chance to redeem the year he had. I think he has a lot more to offer than what we saw last year and can be more impactful as he was before.

I see the Browns moving up in the draft...who knows how far...They do seem to be wheeler and dealers on draft days...whether that is for DT or WR....who knows...heck maybe even for anther TE...wouldn't mind seeing Ruckert here in Brown and Orange. They do appear to go more for what is on the board rather than specific need....

Not sure why Landry hasn't signed anywhere yet. Perhaps he is looking for a longer term than teams are willing to give. But would love to see him back. I can see him flourish with Watson and Cooper. I think Clowney comes back...no real insight on why...more gut feeling than anything. At this stage of his career...yes he wants the money and stability...but chasing a ring becomes ever more important...I think we are one of his best shots at that.

Brissett is not a mobile QB.

He's a lot more mobile than Mayfield, Keenum, and Mullens.

Brissett ran 4.94 at the combine and his career best rushing rushing yard total is 260 yards (11th best in the league).

12th in QB rushing yards in both 2017 and 2019. Is he Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson, no. Is he Tom Brady, no.

More like your boy, Cam.

What.

1. How is Cam my guy?

2. Cam Newton literally led the league in QB rushing in one of the years mentioned above and is probably the second or third best running QB ever.

Well I for one distinctly remember you advocating for acquiring him last year. Maybe that is what the reference is too? Cam hasn't been good in any capacity for at LEAST 3 years and that was before last year. I'd argue he was never a good throwing QB - at his peak he was a freak athlete who played the QB position.

If we are counting guys who I thought would be good backup QBs as my guys then also add Blake Bortles, Mitch Trubisky, and many others to that list.

Again, maybe it would have been intended as a jest, but are you certain Cam wasn't on your list of QBs you'd prefer over Baker at one point? Idk, but that's what I was thinking of earlier. No big deal one way or another. I like our Backups this year much better than last year.

Who knows. I didn’t know anybody even paid attention to those lists.

Brissett makes me much more comfortable than Keenum. He can at least physically play the position.

j/c:



Uh-oh....

Duplicate post.

Supposedly Rosenhouse gets people paid.... while I usually have the same reaction when a Browns player goes to him, if anyone deserves the "hit the iron while it's hot" excuse, it's DJ.

It was always unlikely that we would pay a third string running back over $2 million. Someone will give Johnson a nice deal and we won’t match it.

Good for Johnson. Love is story. Would love to have him but he deserves to get as much as he can.

I'll be pulling for him wherever he goes.

Tough for a good back to be behind Chubb and Hunt. I hope we keep Hunt as long as we can. I like that kid.

j/c...

Nail in the Dan Snyder coffin?

I don't know.....he's been ducking and weaving with the best of 'em.

This could be the end for Dan Snyder.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...ney-visiting-teams-season-ticket-holders

If the evidence is clear; I don't see how he could keep the team.

He got caught getting between the other owners and their money. I think it's a different game now.

NFL Team owners will seemingly look the other way on a lot of things.. But if you don't report what they get a piece of correctly, I doubt they look the other way on this one.

So, if these accusations turn out to be true, I'd think he's gone.

We already have 5.26% of our cap tied up in RBs' Chubb and Hunt.

j/c...

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the discussion to extend Carr was taking place.

I watch him and have moments of "this guy is pretty good" to "he's inconsistent" to "they can't win with him".

He's been in the league for 8 or 9 years and has one playoff game, a loss, in which he played pretty badly on the 4 most crucial plays of the game. He's not athletic or mobile. He's one dimensional. And yet he has stuck with the same team for going on double digit years through multiple coaching staffs and now multiple contracts.

A QB with his credentials would never make it past year 4 in Cleveland. Actually, I find his survival unheard of on the same team in the modern day NFL.

I find this fascinating honestly.

I agree w/some of your takes. I think the playoff thing is a bit unfair because he was a MVP favorite and led the team to the playoffs and then got hurt at the very end of the year when they lost to the Texans, I believe.

I agree that he can cause polarizing evaluations. He can look very good and he is excellent at the end of many games. I do think he holds the ball way too long and that is a terrible trait for a guy who is not a good runner. I do commend him for being a wonderful leader for the team. The Raiders had to endure the Grudin debacle after the league office offered the latter up as sacrificial bait to draw attention away from the crap that was going on in Washington w/Snyder. Then, the Ruggs vehicular homicide tragedy was another devastating blow.

I don't think Carr is a guy who can carry a team and lead them to a championship, such as guys like Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Burrow, Herbert, Watson, etc.....but he is a better than average qb who is a solid guy. I do think he would have lasted four years in Cleveland. Hell, Baker lasted four years and he stinks and is an emotional midget. I remember reading this board one time while I was away and 888 huffed and puffed about how incredulous it was to compare Baker and Carr, as if Baker was soooooo much better. LMAO.....Well, Carr is getting paid big time and no one wants to pay Baker $18--19 million. Reality is far different than the biased opinions of those who don't have a clue about the game of football.

I always liked Carr. I know he’s not a top tier guy, but he’s been a solid-to-good QB for a while now.

Seahawks didn't like the podcast.

What?

Seahawks were like..."Wait, we are?!"

Kyler Murray says he will not play this season without a contract extension.

https://www.nfl.com/news/kyler-murray-not-expected-to-play-for-cardinals-without-new-contract

This seems like it is not going work there. If I was the Cardinals. I would begin looking to move him. I am not from inside their building but there has to be issues there.

Murray is creating a distraction. There appears to be problems with his "leadership" coming from inside the organization.

Hard to figure how Murray feels he has the right to demand this when he is under contract till 2024.

I don't follow the team but this looks like trouble.

Murray is very immature. I hate watching him on the sidelines when things are not going well. He pouts! Yet another guy who blames others for his own issues. That's not being a leader.

They could cut him and get Baker. They are basically the same player. Murray is a little more mobile, but that's about all the difference I see.

Sure Kingsbury would want Mayfield back. Just like his Texas Tech days.

Kliff Kingsbury, Baker Mayfield Relationship 'Good' After Texas Tech Fallout

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...lationship-good-after-texas-tech-fallout

I was mostly joking about them getting Baker, but I don't think the coach would be an issue with Baker. As long as he is not under Freddie or Hue, he'll be ok.

“Little more” is doing a lot of work here. Kyler Murray is one of the most athletic people in the world.

j/c,

I think that the Carolina Panthers need to say screw the optics of it and trade for Baker, so they are not pigeonholed into picking a QB with the #6 selection. They already know that Sam Donald is not the guy they want to trot out as their starting QB for the up coming season.

Other then the 6th pick, their Draft capital is lacking for a team in big need of adding talent to their roster and they might be better off trading down in the first and adding some additional draft picks.

Edit: then he can reunited with Higgins.

First, they are not close to the same player.

Second, one of the things I've noticed over the years is teams tend to like players who play well against them. Call it lazy scouting, but it's not that uncommon to see a few head scratching deals where a guy played well against the team he is signing with.

Baker has played the Cardinals twice and has stunk both times. Plus, I doubt they would want the mental headache after what they are going through with Murray.

Carolina faces the same financial situation as the Browns. The Panthers picked up Darnold's 5th year option and the money is guaranteed. Hard to imagine a scenario in which they tie up a bunch of guaranteed money in two average to below average QBs. They should draft a QB or tank for another season.

I'd run it back with Darnold in 2022 with a focus on 2023. Maybe even trade out of the 6th pick (assuming there are takers) and focus on 2023.

All true,

But their Coach and GM being on the hot seat and feel that they need to win now. That scenario is not one that a rookie QB with the 6th pick, nor with Sam Donald is going to fix ... and they have the cap space to pull it off.

I can't say I have watched much of Murray.

As weeks went past during the season I saw highlights of his games.

Then came the playoff game. He stunk that game up. He played like Weeden.

He is a talented athlete. A high level baseball prospect. But this whole situation smells like trouble. He is trying to hold the team hostage while he is under contract.

If I am the Cardinals management I would not want a long term relationship with him. I would see what teams are willing to give up and I would negotiate the best deal. If I did not feel the offers were legit. I would play hard ball and keep him till I got what i wanted. If he wants to hold out? OK you don't get paid.

A team will trade for him. He may give it up and go play baseball. I would not cave in to a player trying to pull what he is doing. In the end if a player wants out. You can't have him with the team.

I don't know Murray. The optics are not good. He signed a contract.

Sounds like you after one of your countless board suspensions.

I'm pretty sure Carolina released a statement saying they were not interested in Baker. I think the podcast that was shown the other day is only going to shrink Baker's opportunities. That sucks because it would be nice to get something back for him. It's too bad that Houston didn't want him in the trade for Watson. Before that went down, I thought Houston might be one possible team that would be interested in Baker due to the Texas connection.

Back to Murray. bonefish brought up a good point about baseball. There is always that option. I do know that Murray is not doing himself any favors in regards to his reputation w/his recent demands.

j/c...

Ty,
I hadn't heard that Carolina released a statement to that effect.

And our FO released a statement saying Baker would be our starter in 2022. You either trust what these corporate PR statements say or you don't. We were just shown over the past few months that we can't trust them. Swinging back and forth pretending you can trust some of them and can't trust others is only trying to further your own point of view.

The fact is no team is going to vocalize an interest in Baker. Quite the opposite in fact. They realize the Browns have placed themselves in a no win situation and will do and say what makes it possible for them to pay the cheapest price they can for his services. It's called gamesmanship.

Suitors for Baker are going to be nil - [1] Salary [2] A bunch of teams in need of a QB resolved their situation before Baker was certain to be available [3] The Browns simply have to move on from him - unless the price is absurdly low AND the Browns eat a good % of his salary there will be no trade partners.

People can be thrilled with the addition of a top 5 QB (based on former play) - but the team/Haslam absolutely misplayed the situation with Baker and destroyed any value he had. Some might take all these factors and suggest that the zero trading partners and interest in Baker is because Baker is garbage.... I believe that would simply be agenda posting. I think there is much, much more to it than that - many layers and moving parts. But you only have to look at what Wentz got - and while this is only an opinion supported by stats, Baker has significantly higher ceiling than Wentz. Last year a 100% healthy Wentz on a decent team with a great running game was marginally better than Baker with a broken humerus, torn labarum and harness. The previous season when Baker had a half year of bad learning the play book and adjusting mechanics, followed by a half year of very very good - he was better than Wentz.

I wonder what the narrative would have been if Baker had gotten surgery after the second game and missed the rest of the games?


Instead of all that has happened after he played hurt. He would be coming off the his 2020 season.

Things may have been way different. The trade for Watson might not have happened.

If it did happen; Baker's market would be looking way different than it is.

I was pulling for yanking Baker soon after the injury, halftime of the Patriots game would have been perfect. We would have been going into 2022 with confidence and optimism with none of this off season bull crap. We might even have made the playoffs....Keenum would have been no worse that what Baker did on the field. There wouldn't have been this huge Baker vs OBJ distraction.

Yep. To the last part, it's basically an inside-out version of our Brock Osweiler situation. We'll have to eat some of the salary to accrue the draft pick... only this time we're the one trying to unload the player as well.

is it a habit of yours to misrepresent what other people say and put words into their mouths by moving the goal posts?

My guess is that the trade for Watson would probably have happened - or the Browns would certainly have tried just as hard. Watson is sort of an analytics wet dream in terms of all his strong stats in different categories. Baker's stock would have been higher ... but who knows.

No it wasn't my intention. If you can rely on an NFL FO to tell you the truth, then the Browns FO were telling the truth that Baker would be our starting QB in 2022. Either what NFL FO's say can be trusted or they can't. If they can not be trusted, then what Carolina's FO said in a statement is not reliable and can not be trusted.

I'm pretty sure you weren't posting what their FO said to indicate they couldn't be trusted as it was presented. Or did you? It sounded as if you were indicating it was a reflection of their position on the topic. Maybe I was mistaken.

I was just passing some information along to FL that I heard. I will say that you are right that we can't trust any of them at their word when it comes to such things, but I wasn't even thinking along those lines. I hope the comment was bogus and they give us three first round picks for Baker.

We certainly won't get much for Baker. And why would we? There's no way the two of them will be on the sideline together. Cleveland has to dump him or they are stuck for his entire salary cap for the season while getting nothing in return. And God knows they need the cap room to address other needs. I'm sure we'll get some offer or offers but the entire league knows the position the browns are in and they have no need to pay much since the Browns backed themselves into a corner here. Don't get me wrong, I think the Browns knew they were backing themselves into this corner. I don't think it's something that caught them off guard. I think it was just an additional price they were willing to pay to get watson. Just "Baked in" as a part of the deal. If they get a team willing to pay half of Baker's salary this year and a third round pick they'll be lucky.

I understand all of that. I was just explaining why I made my comment to FL and that I wasn't picking and choosing. Look man, I've endured too much over the last year and a half and I don't feel like fighting or bickering. I just want to talk some football. I don't care if people agree w/my opinions. Exchanging insults and character assassinations over and over again on numerous threads is not something I am remotely interested in. Differing opinions are a good thing. Can we please just cool it and stick to making our own opinions? For example, I completely disagree w/you that the Browns are doing Baker dirty. Players get cut/traded all the time. It's nothing new. However, I won't say a word to you if you continue w/that rhetoric. It's your opinion and should be free to voice it. I would appreciate it if you could reciprocate.

Obviously I didn't make my points clear. I don't think what the Browns did was doing Baker dirty. It's a business. What I can do is understand why Baker felt it was dirty. That's two different things entirely. If a persons career and life was impacted directly I can see how such a thing would be more personal to them as an individual. I can see why making public statements that he would be the QB going into next season and then doing a 180 would bother him. If there was a question whether they were sticking with Baker or not I think the Browns would have been better served not making such a statement and keeping quiet about it. That's not meant as some huge indictment of either party. It's simply saying that both sides could have handled the situation better. I hope that helps clear at least a portion of things up. I also don't believe Baker handled the situation well. He did a poor job making that silly podcast. I don't think we disagree on those portions of it as much as it may seem. Hopefully you see that as me reciprocating in kind.

The Browns currently have the fifth most cap space of any team with Baker’s contract on the books. It would be nice to have that $18 million but not totally necessary.

We won't be in the same position once we have a starting DE, WR and center. We do need that $18m and without it our roster is weaker and more shallow in depth.

With the way the front office usually structures contracts we have more than enough space to fill the holes. Would it be nice to have that $18 million? Yes. Is it necessary? No.

Assuming you're right about the cap situation, it seems like the obvious thing to do is keep Mayfield on the roster until a starting QB gets hurt, and one, two, or more WILL get hurt. If its awkward, so effing what? These guys (Watson and Mayfield) are making a lot of money, they can suck it up for a few weeks or months. I think highly enough of Baker to believe he won't try to hurt the team, if only because he cares about his teammates.

He'd still be QB1 for the Browns, and we would all be praising him.

Yea, that's what the FO did last year to address DT and the Browns ended up with the worst Defensive interior in the NFL - WTF, let's try it again..............

If we needed the cap space then Baker would already be gone.

Taking shots on one year deals is a sounds strategy when you have no other options.

I would have no problem bringing Sheldon back.

He still gives professional snaps. Would he want to come back? I think he will go where the money is.

We need a veteran on the inside.

Praising? Not sure.. But supporting and wishing for him to succeed,, sure.

I am not saying this in a confrontational manner and I hope you take it as such and read for things to ponder.

I think the fans and local media have a very different perception of Baker than the national media does and other teams do. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that "no player has done less w/more than Baker" and "the Browns have as good of a roster as anyone but the qb is a question mark."

I think the injury affected Baker. I think it messed w/his torque. However, I don't like it that some posters [not you] trash Stefanski for playing Baker. That decision is up to the medical team in regards if he is healthy enough to play or not. Other qbs, such as Matt Hassleback, have played w/that injury. I would also say that Baker had a ton of off-target throws the previous year and that was w/out any injuries. I think his problem is a combination of things. He has never mastered his lower body mechanics. He chose to avoid "broom sweepers" in the off-season. Secondly, teams game-planned to keep him in the pocket this year. His height is a detriment and he is not athletic like Murray or Wilson. Finally, the guy absolutely wilts under pressure. His mechanics go to hell if he is pressured in the pocket early. He panics and doesn't look downfield. He ducks his head and runs around wildly. He also get real tight in the backside late in close games.

I think those reasons, combined w/an abrasive personality, being really bad at going through his progressions, and lack of preparation were his undoings.

I do agree w/you that his trade stock would have been much higher last year than it currently is.

jc...

Only QB to lead his team, the Cleveland Browns, to a playoff victory since the Browns returned to the NFL in 1999....who was that ?

One might argue it was Ben...

So, when the Browns win it was Baker who led the team to victory and when they lose it was because of his supporting cast. And you dare to say I have an "agenda?"

Oh hell nah! Where's the puke emoji Purp?!?!?

I should have never mentioned Baker in this thread. He has been discussed to death.

All I said because it may influence other things like the draft and free agency is:

"What would be the narrative if he didn't play last year?" Not who he is or how he played or any thing else really.

If he didn't play. IMO the Browns still would have gone after Watson. Baker's market value would be different. Period.

You have "no other options" when you created a problem with $18.9 million of cap space.

I still don't understand why people are claiming what transpired with w/ Mayfield after the Watson deal and other NFL trades means we definitely have "no other options" and it's a problem created by the FO. But I'm happy to hear more....I just don't buy what's been said already.

The bottom line is the team seemingly upgraded on Baker, and hopefully long-term. That's not a problem. That's a good thing and the residual effect of Mayfield's contract or any sort of collateral issues from Baker resulting from getting Watson pale in comparison to a transaction to get a legit fQB. In the NFL climate these days, having a legit franchise QB is what gets you sustainable success and a chance to win it all, obviously. The days of Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Nick Foles leading your team to the Super Bowl is less and less likely in the current climate.

And no other options? How does anyone know this? Creative NFL deals (especially by the Browns in recent years) can, and do, happen. I think this might mean taking on some money or a contract a team doesn't want, but there could be a myriad of different ways this FO of Berry & DePodesta are looking at to get some value. It's funny when people here (and in the NFL space) couldn't comprehend the brilliance of the Osweiler trade a few year years back simply because it was never done before. This notion that nothing can be done seems like a crock of BS, frankly.

If Watson continues his path as a player, having Mayfield currently on the roster or his contract most likely a portion of (considering the abundance of space the team has) means next to nothing.

The team is "stuck" with Baker and his contract right now. If they trade him tonight, they "should" have more $$$ to sign other players - more money available tomorrow than the amount of money they have available this afternoon. That is simply undeniable. Whether that it is hindering them in getting guys signed? Anyone's guess.

I'm not comfortable with the lack of FAs brought in when we have starter-level needs at DT x 2, DE and #2WR and no 1st Rd pick. If we have plenty of $$$ (which reportedly we do)...what is holding up the filling of those needs? I'm not saying that such is due to lack of cap space...but the cap DOES have to be managed/manipulated...and 18.9 million is rotting on the shelf right now.

Lastly, the teams that best-manage the cap use "unused" $$$ to create space for the next year. As long as Baker is on the payroll, there is less money available to do that...also undeniable.

Getting a legit NFL franchise QB is imperative...another undeniable point. Now that we are certain that we have one, I'd like to see some FA signings and spend what we have to spend to get this roster at least 22 legit starters. We still don't have that.

Sounds like Berry is asleep at the wheel.

Rip Van Winkle.

I am sure Berry has given it no thought.

I am almost 100% positive that Rish was being facetious.

I'd feel better if he were...because how this has been handled has been a disaster. Very anti-Berry like actually.

I don't think Berry is asleep at the wheel at all. The concept of where we are, the consequences that would be created when trading for watson were clear going into the deal. Baker already had his contract guarantee before the trade was made. This FO was already fully aware that watson and Baker would not be able to coexist on the same roster or on the sideline together. This wasn't some mysterious development they weren't unaware of going into this trade. They knew that every NFL team in the league was fully aware of the precarious situation this would put the Browns in with regards to Baker.

The odds of us being the team that would end up with watson or say Wilson wasn't something the Browns could count on happening at the time the fifth year option signing deadline had arrived. As such the Browns needed to extend that option on Baker or risk having no QB going into 2022. I don't see any logical way the Browns didn't feel compelled to sign Baker to that fifth year option at that point in time. When they decided to enter into the watson bidding war sweepstakes, they were fully aware of all these factors. They knew it would put them at a disadvantage trying to move Baker. They knew the NFL understood the Browns had no choice but move Baker. They also knew that would make it difficult at best to get any type of leverage in getting good value for Baker.

No, nobody was asleep at the wheel. They made the decision that taking a bargain basement deal to move Baker was a part of what would go along with trading for watson. It was a cost that was already factored into the deal for watson when they made it.

I think we already have a handshake deal for Clowney and maybe for Fuller. Berry is no dummy...he knows better than we do about the holes on his roster.

IMO we have to be patient.

See how things play out. There are lots of layers to all of this.

Check back after the draft is over. What does the roster look like then?

Free agency is still in play. There are players on the roster who could get traded during the draft.

The Murray thing will be worth keeping an eye on. If he forces is way off the roster maybe Kingsbury will have an interest in Baker.

When it comes to the roster. You either believe in Berry or you don't. Not every decision is going to work. That's the NFL. But I like the logic of Berry and how he has built the team. I believe we have a very good core of talent.

Getting Watson and taking on that contract will be a challenge. But you pay to play. The heavyweights cost big money.

Berry will have to find talent outside of round one for two more years. I believe he will.

Well that argument would be clearly wrong because words have meanings including the above words "his team, the Cleveland Browns,".

Nicely stated.

I want to continue emphasizing...

Browns are in a position where they dictate.

Ideal, Berry could sign Landry, Clowney, and Fuller. I wouldn't get my hope up but roster talent drives the initiative that brings other veteran talents.

They really had to do that to assure themselves of a solid QB for next year. there really wasn't any assurance that they'd be able to land Watson so to cover butts, they had to give Baker the 5th year... Of course now it's created a bit of a problem that we all can see.

That makes sense on the surface...however, I think they were D-O-N-E with Baker by the end of the year. Had they punted Baker earlier, they still could have gone after Trubisky, Mariota, Ryan, Wentz, etc. Just my opinion.

No FO is "done" with their QB unless they have a clear upgrade to the position. From a strictly QB position, I don't think this FO would have considered any of the QB's you listed as a top tier QB. Had they have been willing to make a lateral move as you are suggesting, that would have meant they were done with Baker. Yet that is obviously not the approach they were taking. I don't think getting any of the QB's you listed would have accomplished what they were trying to do. They were trying to get an actual franchise QB that make the Browns a serious SB contender in their eyes.

So no, getting watson had nothing to do with "being done with Baker". And had they have decided that any of the QB's you named were worth pursuing that may be a valid point. But when looking at their actions that was not the case.

You'd better worry about no Defensive Tackles, because we don't have any.

Stephen Weatherly is a super interesting guy. He was a judge on a glass blowing show on Netflix (he’s a glass blower).

LOL

Super Bowl!

https://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-...eatherly-deal-with-release-from-panthers

Stephen Weatherly PFF Grades:

Overall: 52.5
Pass Rush: 58.9
Run Defense: 49.0


Not very good. Oh well.

Nice. Getting Sheldon Day back into the interior d-lineman fold doesn't seem like a bad thing.

He certainly won't stop us from resigning Clowney

It’s an inconsequential move. He’s probably a minimum contract on a one year deal. He might not even make the team. They also need bodies for minicamp.

All signings well and good, but Day doesn't excite me at DT. If we don't get better there, it doesn't matter how good Garrett is if teams can run all day up the middle.

We really need a anchor the middle of the line tackle who can eat up two blockers.

Eh.

??

My guess on what he’s saying.

Running up the middle is not a main concern. It’s a passing league,

This is why this staff has been throwing out 1 year deals to D-interior lineman

Sheldon Day is not a bad player.

IMO Berry is happy with adequate play at DT. I think with Woods the interior DL will be keep four guys in rotation.

Keep them fresh. Use different guys to play different gaps and look for others to provide inside pressure. Mix and match to down and distance and keep guys fresh.

Cover the backend. Use guys at linebacker that can play in space and cover. He is not looking for stack and shed 260 linebackers.

He wants guy who win to a spot. Cover, fill, and spot pass rush.

JOK will play a giant role for the Browns for years to come. He is an exceptional talent.

The list of available interior linemen is still pretty deep:

https://overthecap.com/free-agency/

Browns Eyeing 3-Time Free Agent Pro Bowl Pass-Rusher


By J.R. De Groote
Updated Apr 18, 2022 at 5:33am

Melvin Ingram

The Cleveland Browns are still searching for a quality pass-rusher to play opposite of Myles Garrett and Melvin Ingram is someone the team has shown some interest in.

The Browns are awaiting a decision from former top pick Jadeveon Clowney, who excelled in the starting spot last season. The Browns have offered a contract to Clowney worth $24 million over two years, per NFL insider Jordan Schultz.

However, if that falls through, the Browns have to have a backup plan for their free agency plans, with Chase Winovich, Porter Gustin, Taven Bryan and Curtis Weaver currently making up the rest of the position group behind Garrett at defensive end.

The Browns are looking at Ingram as someone who could help fill the void, per Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com.

“The Browns and Clowney still have mutual interest, but it might not happen until after the NFL Draft April 28-30. Clowney, 29, has had some contact with his former Texans teammate Watson,” Cabot reported on April 16.

“The Browns also are considering other free agent defensive ends, including former Bill Jerry Hughes, 33, and former Chief Melvin Ingram, 32. They’ve also scouted the top college prospects, and could select an end with the No. 44 pick.”

Ingram Has Visited With the Dolphins

Ingram is currently a free agent after splitting last season between the Steelers and Chiefs. Ingram recorded two sacks and four tackles for loss in 2021 between his two stops.

While his production might be down, he has a veteran track record with a reputation of being able to get to the passer and disrupt plays in the backfield. Ingram has noted 51.0 career sacks to go with 74 tackles for loss and 119 QB hits. He made a trio of Pro Bowls from 2017 to 2019.

Ingram visited with the Dolphins this week but nothing has pointed to a deal being imminent. It’s unknown what his market might be after a down year, although a low-risk, incentive-laden deal would make sense for the 32-year-old.

Clowney Expressed Interest in Return to Browns

Clowney is weighing his future and has been slow on making his free agent decisions in the past. However, unlike the past few years, Clowney has a chance to cash in on a successful, healthy season.

Clowney played in 14 games last season his most since 2018. He tallied 9 sacks and 19 quarterback hits, also registering 37 tackles, including 11 tackles for loss. He also made a big impact in the run game, holding down his side of the line. Clowney expressed an interest in returning during the season, although he didn’t get into detail due to the timing.

“I would [consider returning], but we have not talked about anything right now. Just finishing the season,” Clowney told reporters on Friday, December 31. “We have a lot of guys on this team who are on a one-year deal, and they might be heading back or do not know what is going to happen in the future. Right now, it is just all about the next game, just trying to get through the season and doing what I can do for the team as of right now.”

One of his biggest supporters in the Browns locker room is his pass-rush partner, Garrett.

“I want him here. I feel like he’s disruptive every time he’s out there, especially when we’re out there together,” Garrett told reporters on Friday, January 7. “The guy’s hitting his stride. I think he has a lot of football left and he doesn’t know that.”



https://heavy.com/sports/cleveland-...vNQsA8wGHO94z0_GfueNxD8LZwsAN7uzSqHDUeSY

OK,, Now I'm really excited LOL

Adequate DT play would be a pretty large improvement from last year

I guess the question I have is where are we going to get adequate starting play at DT? We don't have starting DT's. We have back-up's who start. Elliott isn't a starter and I seriously doubt Togia is any better.

I question our teams strategy at the DT position. We seem to want 3 tech guys who can also plug the middle, but those guys are rare and go in the first round. You don't find them in the 3rd or 4th round.

The Browns front office has a 'dismal' record when it comes to addressing the DT position via the draft.

...Year...rnd drafted........name.....
..2016.........6.......... Caleb Brantley
..2017.........0.......... No DTs drafted
..2018.........0.......... No DTs drafted
..2019.........0.......... No DTs drafted
..2020.........3...........Jordan Elliott
..2021.........4...........Tommy Togiai

Improving the talent level at DT might go a long way toward improving the overall performance of the defensive unit, especially against the run and applying pressure on the opponents QB. When we add the Browns lack of a run stuffing ML, the weakest area of the Browns defense become "the middle".

If the Browns want better production from their DEs , building a disruptive interior DLine would be a wise investment. IMO, too many times I watched opponents QBs settle into 'the pocket', looking way too comfortable as they wait to find an open receiver.

I am somewhere in the middle of the importance of interior defensive linemen. I know the league is now a passing league more than ever, but it's hard to win close games if your interior is soft and can't stop the run. On the other hand, the interior of the DL is nowhere near as important as the Edge or having good corners.

Generally I agree except Aaron Darnold took over the last drive of the SB. His play from the inside of the DL won the game.
But he is a rare exception, and certainly not the type of talent you find in mid rounds.

Agreed.

I agree, it may not be as important, but it isn't all that far behind.

If you are calling the defense a unit, you are only as strong as your weakest link, and the scrubs we put out there at the DT position are pretty damn weak.

It seems to me that if you have a DT who pretty much needs a double team, that is going to keep one of the DE's from getting doubled.

j/c...

DT's are still crucial to a teams overall success.look at your 2021 playoff teams and SB teams

Rams..Donald
Bengals ...Reader
Bucs...Vea
Chiefs...Jones
All ranked highly by PFF.

The Browns havent had a dominant DT since MDP.
Warren sucked. Shelton was a bum who got pushed around. The list is endless

I agree with you. The only place we seem to disagree with is that I don't consider the defense as a "unit". I see it as you have different units within a defense. The secondary is one unit and the DL is another unit. You could break that down even further into the interior DL and the DE's. The CB's and the safeties. All of those units have different responsibilities and when you combine those units they together make up your defense as a whole.

I also agree this is a passing league so your biggest focus should be on your secondary and the DE's. Yet at the same time we are bereft of talent at the DT position which will not serve us well if we are at the end of a tight game and the opposition can just run all over us and eat the clock.

By far the most common margin of victory in the NFL is 3 points. When looking at the chart on this site one can see that between 3 point, 6 point and 7 point margins, a lot of games are decided by a TD or less.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/nfl-key-betting-numbers-spread-margins-of-victory-line-value

So the ability to stop the run up the middle when your opponent has possession of the football late in games becomes more critical than some may think it is.

This NFL off-season is blackout drunk at this point. At this point I expect the Jaguars to take Malik Willis to run a two QB system.

Who??

I expect to see quite a few "who" signings on the Dline, since we'll be throwing darts in TC again this year...

Javon? We just signed him on a Wim.

Filling out the roster....

Javon throws a mean sucker punch.

This is interesting because Shanny is such a great offensive coach. Shefty put out a report yesterday that SF was willing to pay Deebo. I wonder what is fueling his desire to want to be traded. One possible explanation is that they use him as a RB so often and figures that could reduce his long-term worth. Right now WRs have moved into the second highest position group in the NFL and carrying the ball as much might shorten his career. The other thing I thought about was that he has see enough of Trey Lance in practice to want the hell out of there. One thing is for sure........Deebo Samuel is a dynamic and a difference maker.

Good. We need a little more "nasty" in all parts of the roster.

Maybe he'll inspire a little on the defense... we're definitely very low in the nasty department on defense.

Man, that was gutless and ignorant.

I don't know about that, our QB scores pretty high on the nasty scale.

Yeah, it was. I almost put that in purple, but didn't because I'm so dead-serious about the lack of nasty.

Wrong thread, but I'll ramble anyway... We've hitched our defense to Myles Garrett, in a sense, for his whole career. A defense predicated on creating chaos up front... through a couple different coordinators now.

"He ain't got no nasty". We need more players that play with an edge on that side of the ball, particularly the line. I had high hopes for Takk, and he looked the part before the devastating injury. Love Myles, would love him a lot more if he became Aaron Donald a few more times during crunch time.

Harrison showed some "nasty" by resorting to a couple of cheap shots that were pretty dumb. You should post some of your thoughts on bone's new defensive thread. I think they would be a very good addition.

Oh HIM! I remember seeing that one.

We gotta get this guy!

Deebo is one of the most dynamic playmakers in the NFL and already playing in our offensive.

I wonder if we can get him for a 2nd and 3rd? If so I’d do it, assuming he wants to play for us anyways

I am willing to risk it. Hope Berry reads this . . . .

It was dumb for sure ... but there is a video on YouTube, that covers (the context) the explanations on why Wims was lead to retaliate, and also w/ details about this DB fight in practice with their star WR Michael Thomas.

myka, I agree w/you that acquiring Deebo would be awesome. He is a truly great player. However, I don't think we could really afford to give up more draft capital and he is going to want to be paid in excess of $20 million. I do hope he stays in the NFC. He played at S. Carolina, so maybe he goes to the Panthers, Tampa Bay, Washington. Hell, that doesn't make sense. I doubt SF wants to trade him to a NFC team. Damn!

Thanks for the info. I still don't like how he came from behind, threw a sucker punch, and then backed-up like a sissy boy. But, that's just me. LOL

LOL ... he certainly did not earn in style points...

LOL

Btw-----I think you are a good poster. I love reading your draft takes. Very knowledgable.

Yeah exactly Vers, if he were an FA we’d probably have no chance if he really just wants to return to his hometown.

I’d be happy to pay him well. I mean we already mortgaged the future for Watson. We need to win a Supee Bowl in the next three years or everyone is getting fired. (Well I guess if we win the division 3 times they might get to hold on, but not much more than that).

I’m not usually a “get the star” kinda guy (didn’t love the OBJ trade etc) but Deebo is exactly the type of player that would complete our O. He’s like Jarvis but more athletic. If we gotta pay him 5M more a year so be it.

"He's he all week, folks. Don't blame me."

This is by far the biggest question mark for me right now. Guys like Day and Elliott are bottom of the barrel. I understand not prioritizing a position, but we were the worst in the NFL last year and have done nothing here.

Wim...he's a Brown so I automatically like him...lol Got size for Red Zone game. catches the ball with his hands and is an ex basketball player so he uses his body well and it is said that he is excellent on his back shouler plays. THE PUNCH...there is always more to it than just the punch. Full pads and helmets just mean not much thought in that affair. Only thing that might have hurt is his hands. But the kid is from Miami and probably still has that tough guy enforcer type in him. Still who knows if he will be useful or not.

Rochell is not camp material he is a decent depth guy who is here to improve the back end of our roster.

jmho we are leaving no stone unturned

I don't see the Colts letting this guy get away if he was what you claim that he is ... DE is still a need for them today.

Quick competition

We watched York kick one time from 50+ and said OK

I think you always want competition in the camps at kicker. Maybe the Browns were doing McLaughlin a favor by releasing him now so he can hook-up w/another team?

No doubt they were doing him a favor. York is going to be the kicker. Now we will bring in some kid for exposure.

j/c...

landry to AZ?

I think Hop's looming suspension might have something to do w/the Cards trading for Hollywood Brown.

Immediate laugh.

Thank you for that.

That makes a lot of sense.. but I bet they bring in a few kickers to compete... Just a guess..

Stefanski just said on WKNR that Cade York will go into training camp with zero competition. No surprise when you invest a 4th round pick in a kicker.

If he were a UDFA there would be competition.

But you would think that we would bring in another kicker for Training Camp.

Stefanski said he wants York to get all of the reps. Said he believes it is best for him in the long run.

Thanks

It's a pretty big vote of confidence that he's the guy. Hopefully, he's up for it.
I wonder if they'd consider bringing Phil Dawson in for a week or two here and there to work with him; have Phil teach him the finer points of kicking in that stadium. If there's a place you should bat 1.000, it's on your home turf.

The Cleveland Browns announced a unique signing earlier today. They inked Texas Tech basketball forward Marcus Santos-Silva to a free agent deal as a tight end.

Santos-Silva did not play college football. In fact, the 6-foot-6, 261-pound bruiser didn’t even play high school football, stopping his career on the gridiron after eighth grade.

Now, he’s giving the sport another shot at its highest level. It goes without saying that Santos-Silva is a longshot to make the roster, but his storyline will be intriguing to follow in the coming months.

Probably an analytics decision in case the NFL decides to go with the jump ball vs. kickoffs to start the game.

My guess is that the wind has changed pretty significantly since they renovated the stadium.

Could also be he wants York to get all the teps because there is a different sized ball used in the NFL, I’ve read some college kickers can never make the switch, and of course they can’t make it in the NFL.

j/c,

Coach Priefer has got to be pretty happy with this off-season, we drafted a kicker, signed a punter and a dynamite return specialist in FA.

blewitt, and McChocklin were no compitition.

I can agree with that, though I could see someone kicking some on kick-offs just to lighten the load, though i don't know how much they actually practice kickoffs

This isn't a big deal, but I really don't like the idea of not having another kicker in camp. Anyone who has been to TC understands how practices are different for kickers than the other guys. I would bring in one to two other kickers just to have a look at them and get to know them in case York gets hurt or turns out to be like that kid TB drafted a handful of years ago. You never know w/kickers. But again......I am not complaining, just stating my thoughts on the situation.

The upside is there are more kickers out of work than are needed. If we need one during camp Berry get get on Amazon and get same day delivery.

Olivier Vernon according to his agent plans to play 2022.

Wonder if the Browns will talk to him. He is coming off a achillies that he said was hard to recover from.

They should bring him in and get him checked out. He will not cost very much. He missed all of last year.

He played pretty well for the Browns. If he checks out. He would fine in rotation. Clowney remains the priority but having both would be good.

LOL.............and you are right. I was thinking about how many guys move around, but it's nice to see a guy day in and day out. Again, not a big deal. Just a difference in opinion.

I agree. I get him getting reps, but I also worry about over kicking the guy. That is why I said maybe bring in somebody to lighten the load a bit. If for no other reason to give some kid a bit of exposure to NFL camp.

Maybe what Stefanski was referring to was reps in the pre season games? I could see that happening.

Good point Peen. There’s a balance. I hope we bring in a guy to handle kicks in training camp simply to not overuse him

Its especially odd to go solo at kicker because York apparently did not handle kick offs at LSU ...

I think there's a big difference between bringing in a camp leg or two and bringing in competition for the position. I would be willing to bet there will be a kicker or two brought into camp. But I also think Yorks position as the starter is penciled in provided something devastating doesn't happen to change that.

Whomever ends up being the backup/emergency kicker may end up being the Camp Leg.

But, if you already know this is your guy - and you wouldn't draft a kicker this high if you weren't sure of that - then there's no reason to keep a higher priced leg around. Cut whomever you have, then sign a street free agent or two to burn through most of the kicking reps in Berea and let York practice down on the lakefront as much as possible.

The only thing that would make someone "a higher priced leg" would be a signing bonus or keeping them beyond training camp. The weekly salary for participating in training camp is very low.

Rookies make about 3400 a week and veterans get about 6400 a week.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/explained-do-players-get-paid-nfl-training-camp

++

Browns Cap Space Today With Baker and Hooper Included: $27,792,501

So we're still in good shape with the cap.

Yes we are 2nd in Total Cap Space in the NFL

We are in VERY good shape and we stand to carry a ton of that over to next year, which further softens the blow of some of the mega contracts we've handed out recently.

Plus, next year there won't be Bakers contract and the cap will go up. We should have more than enough cap space to sign and extend whom we want!!

It helps to have the smartest guys in the room. The Giants are coming out of the Gettleman Era with no talent and no cap space.

Baker Mayfield $18,858,000

Austin Hooper $9,500,000

Come June 1st We Could Gain With Hoopers and if we get someone to take Bakers Contract $27,792,501 + $28,358,000 Giving Us $56,150,501

So true. I know people stress over the cap.

I do not. Berry has planned for this job his whole life. He is a very bright guy. He can handle it.

You will miss on draft picks. Part of the business. Berry will not screw up the cap. He just wont.

The Baker mess is unfortunate. But it doesn't hurt the team from a standpoint of getting who they want.

So, I read about the money etc., but I do not stress about it.

Having a good cap number is important, but I see teams like N.O. who are buried under the cap yet find a way to get who they want and money seems not to be an issue, so I agree bonefish I don't stress over the cap either

The Browns should have attempted to sign QB. Nick Foles as soon as the Bears waived him.
2. I don't care if everyone thinks that is a dumb idea.

I’m impressed with our ability thus far to manage the cap and re-sign/acquire so many top end guys. Keeping the core in place is huge, especially at key spots on the roster

Thus far but I hope it doesn't become like juggling water with trying to keep up.

Which is why they are hesitant to pay 'most" of Bakers salary as teams are requesting...they want to have more carry over...

Meh. I'd say they have contingency plans for everything from us paying none of his salary to us paying all of his salary this year, and everything in between.
There's a preference to not pay anything, sure, but we will be just fine if we paid all of it, too. If anything, I'd wager that it hinges more on the draft picks... e.g. "if you want us to pay most of his salary, you need to give up a higher pick" sort of thing

I still have a pretty strong belief in Berry and Depo... (even with the shoddy way they handled this thing) My guess is they will find a way to pay some or all of this number without seriously hamstringing the team... Look at how they handled Watsons contract... Pretty sure they'll find a way

Oh, I'd all but guarantee that it's completely a non-issue. As-is, we can pay absolutely all of it without it hamstringing us at all. It's dead money this year, it's either a non-factor next year, or it represents money we *could* carry over as available cap space if we could unload him. We're already swimming in cap space under the "worst" scenario.

Why do people think the FO botched the Baker Mayfield deal?

Teams are wanting Cleveland to fold to get a free trial on Baker. Cleveland can pay his salary for one year and get a compensatory, likely a third or fourth, next year.

If Cleveland waves Baker, they pay Baker's full salary for this year. Baker signs with another team at the league minimum. If they can get a compensatory next year, waving Baker makes no sense.

If Berry pays a percentage of Baker's salary along with a trade and a late draft pick, what benefit is it to Cleveland?

I agree with Berry hold out and someone will pay a second or third.

People just want a resolution now because they impatient. There is no reason to do anything on anyone else’s timeline. Waiting doesn’t hurt anyone.

Waiting doesn't hurt.
Lining up a trade before getting Watson - or on condition the Browns got Watson - before all the QB needy teams got other options in place would have been better.

I think Baker hurt his own value more than the Brown's FO did. He is a dependent qb. The stories about the locker room issues were circulating. The OBJ thing w/Baker not wanting to throw him the football because he wanted the attention may have been a thing. The "adult" comment was out there. The social media stuff was out there. Differences of opinion on how much the injury was affecting Baker was out there.

I was really hoping the Texans would trade for Baker. Let him play w/that group and behind that OL. I was hoping the Texas connection might make sense. When Baker was not included in the deal for Watson, it was a giant eye-opener in regards to Baker's worth in the eyes of the league. They have Davis Mills, for crying out loud.

Then, Baker wrote the dumb farewell letter. He then told Shefty it was best for both parties to part ways. He then made the stupid pod cast where he threw teammates under the bus again and made more excuses for his poor play.

I do not blame the FO at all. In fact, I applaud them for biting the bullet and moving on. I am almost positive that Baker was not in their long-term plans even if Watson had chosen another team. I wasn't a fan of firing Dorsey, but Berry has done a very nice job. Some can change their opinions based on facts and others can not.

jc...

The Haslam media machine is in overdrive this weekend, spreading lies about what transpired in Cleveland concerning OBJ's departure.

Beckham was asking the Browns for a trade before the 2021 season started, while still rehabbing from his knee surgery. Matter of fact, the information below is not disputed by anyone from the Browns.

link

Quote

Beckham wanted out of Cleveland almost from the time he was acquired in a 2019 blockbuster trade from the New York Giants. He asked to be traded several times, and now has his wish.

You are correct in that OBJ wanted out of Cleveland before this season. The reason why is that he wanted to be away from Baker. OBJ's camp claims that Baker had a problem w/OBJ being a bigger star than Baker and that he continually refused to throw him the ball. OBJ's came also claims that Baker was really slow at going through his progressions.

OBJ was a star before Baker. And he was balling after leaving Baker. Those are facts.

How do we know they did not try?

Don't forget Baker's injury. He won't be ready until maybe July.

I like Mayfield. I get Watson is an upgrade.

Browns FO is not afraid to spend money for draft capital. Don't forget the Osweiler trade.

Baker said he feels disrespected! Thus far, Berry is basically saying we ain't taking anything short of a first or second. Most GMs would have dumped. To me, Berry wants both Cleveland and Baker to succeed. By trading for a first or second, Berry is forcing a team to spend capital, thus, making Baker a stater. Since Baker is in the final year of his contract, it's hard for teams to justify the salary cost for a one-year deal. I think the deck is stacked against Berry to make a trade. Waiting is the best option.

Let's get our facts straight on OBJ. Between 2020 and 2021, OBJ only played in 13 of 27 games including playoffs. Considering OBJ was injured early in the game in 2020 (1st qtr) the actual number of games that OBJ was available was 12 of 27 games or 44.4% of the time over a 2-year period.

Fact: On this forum and around the NFL, analysts and sports writers alike marveled how the Browns passing game changed once OBJ went down in 2020. In fact, it elevated the play of the other receivers on the team as the Browns made their playoff march. The final 9 games of 2020, Mayfield flew up the ranks to become a top 5 QB without OBJ. The Browns went to the playoffs for 2-games without OBJ and things looked promising for 2021.

Fact: In late May 2021, OBJ demanded a trade from the Browns FO even though he was still rehabing from his injury. The Browns had just made the playoffs for the first time in decades. The team had a top 5 QB that seems to be improving with every game and a supporting staff around him that looked to be in championship form. The how and the why of OBJ's request may never be known but it would be shameful to suggest that OBJ wanted out because Mayfield wouldn't throw him the ball when he had just missed the last 11 games, Mayfield was a top 5 QB, and the team was playoff calibur.

Fast forward to 2021, OBJ is not ready for preseason. Whether OBJ was still rehabing or trying to force a Browns trade, OBJ was not a F/T participant in the 2021 preseason. In fact, this rehab or cat and mouse game continued into the 2021 season where OBJ ended up missing the first 2-games of the year due to him rehabing his injury.

Fact: The Browns started 2021 just like the finished 2020. They were good and the team had a top 5 QB through the first 2-games of the season. All of this promise and still no OBJ contribution. Things were looking up for the Browns.

Unfortunately, Mayfield was hurt during that 2nd game suffering a serious injury to his non-throwing shoulder. Some will argue that the injury shouldn't have mattered yet even to a lay man, Mayfield was not the same QB he had exhibited over the last 13 games going forward with the injury. Mayfield struggled with the injury as it effected his level of play while his head coach continued to put him out there week after week.

Fact: A disgruntled and untraded OBJ returns to the lineup in week 3 to a team that has been winning without him and a now injured QB expected to throw him the ball. OBJ had now missed 13 straight games not counting the preseason. 13 games where Mayfield had built confidence in throwing to other players. 13 games where Mayfield had elevated his game to be a top 5 QB in the league over that period. 13 games where the Browns were winning and they were winning without OBJ.

OBJ's issues with Mayfield hadn't festered over time, hell, OBJ hadn't been playing for the last 13 games and the team was winning without him and hitting on all cylinders. OBJ wanted out of Cleveland and using his injured QB as a tool to make that happen is exactly what he did. Historically, OBJ has been on the field for about 95% of the offensive snaps. Since his return, OBJ only played about 70% of the snaps in those final 6 games with the Browns. Mayfield didn't call the plays, why was OBJ off the field for 25% of the plays he normally was on the field for? Add in all the other injuries that were occurring to the team and you have a team in turmoil struggling with an injured QB with a diva WR wanting to be traded. Those are facts that cannot be denied but OBJ leaving was all Mayfield's fault - or was it?

It might have been better had you been able to keep it quiet. I doubt that would have happened. Then we would be sitting here with a QB demanding a trade because he wouldn't want to play here as a "left over".

I just don't see any realistic way we could have pulled that off.

When the Colts traded Wentz, they had Sam Ehlinger and James Morgan on their roster at QB. They had made the decision to move on from him and they got something in return. Maybe they "knew" they would later get Matt Ryan...maybe they threw the dice...but they decisively made a move after determining that their QB just wasn't the guy for them.

Let's not forget that Jay Glazer has verified that OBJ asked him to help him get out of Cleveland before he even arrived after the trade was announced. I didn't realize how well respected Jay Glazer is until this topic came up, but he doesn't pedal in half truths or rumors.
https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/11/17/odell-beckham-glazer/

Let's not forget the wide spread reporting that in 2019 he was telling opposition teams to "come get me"
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...ld-other-players-come-get-me-in-october/


Let's not forget that last offseason he was telling Von Miller not to come to Cleveland.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/01/28/odell-beckham-jr-von-miller-last-offseason-dont-come-to-cleveland


Funnily enough - while i have seen a lot of independent reporting on all of these things, I have only seen on this forum where anyone questioned the injury to Baker and whether it had much of an impact, and yet that is being claimed as something that is "out there" over and over. I even googled to see if I could find something and came up blank - in fact what I found was Case Keenum talking about how the injury was worse than anyone knew. I've also never ever ever heard Baker didn't throw OBJ the ball because he didn't want OBJ to be a bigger star than Baker - that's another thing I've only ever read here ... from the same guy making the claim about the injury. Hmmmm.

Ryan is quoted the other day saying he would still probably be with Atlanta if not for the Watson talk. Not that that means a whole lot

j/c:

People will believe what they want to believe. No harm in that.

[/color]

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog

j/c:

People will believe what they want to believe. No harm in that.

[color:#FFFFCC]vers...some deal with facts...some just make crap up because they know they can sell it those who are too damn lazy to dig for the facts.

OBJ never wanted to play for Cleveland and was willing to do anything he could to get out.

I can present my facts w/out insulting others. I will say this again. I am not a liar and I don't appreciate being called one. I am not "making" anything up. Now, you can go on and on like some others, but as w/them, I am done speaking to you.

Maybe they knew they had a trade partner?

No doubt. As it played out they had one in WAS. But landing Ryan was not in the cards at the time they jettisoned Wentz. The Browns could have done the same thing though (trade their QB with only backups on the roster) - except their non-longer-wanted QB recently had surgery. The issue I was addressing though was in the comments about how the Browns couldn't trade Baker until they signed his replacement...which did not deter the Colts from moving on from their QB. I'm not bagging on the FO for not getting rid of Baker before landing Watson...it just adds more context to an almost-crazy string of events/non-events.

No, you can present your opinion. There is only one set if facts.

The difference between the Wentz and Baker situations is that the Colts were all the way done with Wentz while we would have started Baker had we not gotten Watson.

And that's been my contention all along. I don't think the Browns were looking to make what they saw as a slight upgrade or a lateral move. Ryan is 36 years old and nearing the end of his career. That's not the type of option I think the Browns were looking for. I think they either wanted to find what they felt was a home run hitter or stand pat given the options. You can't just trade off Baker without having an upgrade available. There was no way they knew if they would win the watson sweepstakes or not. How dumb would they have looked had they traded Baker away only to end up with some band aid or a crappy draft to address the QB position? There was already proof that a healthy Baker could take the team to the playoffs. They wanted more. Some of these other options wouldn't have given them anything close to watson on the field of play. Much less a long time solution to the QB position.

I'm not sure this is true. I'm pretty sure BOTH Baker and the Browns were done with one another. Whether or not we got Watson is irrelevant, IMO.

I think the plan was to keep Baker up until the point in which we got a visit with Watson. The Colts were moving on from Wentz no matter what happened with anyone else.

I don't know the answer to this, but it's reasonable to say that both possibilities are realistic. On one hand, the Browns did say they were going to bring Baker back next year. On the other hand, it was pretty obvious that things were getting really messy between Baker and the coaching staff, Baker and the organization, and Baker and some of the players.

So again, I can see why it's possible they may have brought him back, especially since Jimmy G had a injury to his throwing shoulder. But, I can see why they may have wanted to part ways w/him because he was so divisive. I kinda lean in that direction because we are seeing how things are playing out in regards to how the NFL views Baker.

I'm hoping Seattle gives us something for him, but we might be better off just keeping him and having him sit at home and then maybe receiver a compensatory pick next year after he signs somewhere else. I do want to say I am not sure if I am correct about the compensatory pick. That part of football doesn't pique my interest, so I could very well be wrong about that.

OBJ was/is a cancer in the WR room.

I don't know what the plan was - but I have read a LOT on this board claiming Baker was out no matter what because he is such a cancer and none of his teammates liked him. I probably lean towards thinking Baker was the plan if they failed to get Watson - but I don't know.

I mean really, think about it people - what team in their right mind would trade for a QB that is currently off injured and no guarantee that he'll be ready for the season? Now there's been a few teams that put out feelers to see if the Brown's would deal at a discount but no team is going to take on Mayfield's contract with the unknown of availability. There are those here who say the lack of activity is how the NFL views Baker. They view him as damaged goods due to injury at this point - nothing more. Name me a team that traded for a QB during the middle of his rehab from a serious injury. Not one that has been cleared to play - one that is in the freaking middle of his rehab. Even more importantly, no team would even think about making that trade unless the player could pass an entrance cleared to play physical - Mayfield cannot do that at this time. You have the same thing going on with Jimmy G except people aren't calling Jimmy G the scum QB of the NFL like they are Baker - THEY'RE BOTH REHABING FROM INJURY - thus no serious trade offers. It's as simple as that.

Teams are not seriously inquiring about Mayfield or Jimmy G because of the uncertainty of them even being available for the start of the season.

Maybe. The fact remains is it would have been dumb to trade a QB who is at least good enough before having another locked up. That would be like quitting a pretty good paying job before you have a better paying job locked up. Doing so isn't considered a wise move.

I am not personally interested in debating whether the move(s) was wise...but the sequence of events were played out completely opposite than with/by the Colts.

The Colts were not going to start Ehlinger or BillyBob if they couldn't trade Wentz...they went 'all-in' and got something for a QB who simply wasn't 'good-enough' for them. THEN they went on the hunt for a replacement - possibly including the hunt for Watson.

Here's the thing though...if the Browns were willing to start Baker if they didn't get Watson AND the Colts were D-O-N-E with Wentz (with no viable QB on the roster)...why was Wentz trade-able and Baker is not? The answer is timing, a healthy QB and a lack of baggage - other than Wentz' habitually awful QB play.

The Colts gambled and eventually got someone they wanted while turning the old QB into draft assets...they took a big chance with that (after pulling down their pants one year earlier to land the guy in the first place). The Browns gambled and got what they wanted while putting themselves into a no-leverage situation with their old QB.

Just another example/reason/excuse as to how we got where we are.

j/c,

Well at least the Baker apologist are consistent in placing the blame with the FO for Baker's piss poor trade value.

fl...how much trade value did OBJr have ?

What did the Harvard Boys get in return for him?

Odie even gave the Browns front office plenty of lead time to get a deal done for him, telling the Browns front office he didn't want to play in Cleveland at least months ahead of forcing his way out of Cleveland.

At least they're consistent in absolving the FO from having any responsibility in the situation they find themselves in.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2022/05/09/cleveland-browns-cap-purgatory/

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2022/05/09/cleveland-browns-cap-purgatory/2/

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2022/05/09/cleveland-browns-cap-purgatory/3/

It's odd that you call others "haters' when they bring up facts about Baker, yet every freaking post you make about the Browns is negative other than when you are trying to elevate Baker. Our coach sucks. Our FO is incompetent. Our supporting cast is terrible. The fans suck. But Baker is great and anyone who points out facts is a "hater."

VDog:

As much as you have a right to ride around on your white horse belittling anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, I have the right to point out where I believe we have deficiencies. I'm also not trying to elevate Baker Mayfield. I'm just a person who believes in giving credit where credit is due. Especially since it appears obvious that Mayfield will no longer be a part of the Cleveland Browns organization, I see no justification for the constant bashing as he walks out the door. What's the point and who does it serve? What a QB can't leave Cleveland unless he's made out to be a piece of crap? For this fan, THANK YOU Baker Mayfield for what you have done for Cleveland Browns football and good luck wherever you should land to continue your career. I have not made any negative comment against the Watson acquisition as far as it appearing to be an upgrade.

As for your other unwarranted comments:
Stefanski: Of course, I'm questioning his scheme and play calling, as has Peyton, Eli, Rodgers, and numerous analysts
FO: never said they were incompetent - your words
Cap Management: I, along with a host of others including the recently posted articles are predicting cap hell for the Browns - not a hater, just a realist
Supporting Cast: I've questioned the Browns DL, particularly the DT's that were rated dead last in the NFL in 2021 and to this point not addressing it. I've questioned our bottom ranked WR room in 2021. I've questioned Njoku signing which IMHO is a total waste of money.
Fans Suck: doesn't even deserve a response to your wording - not mine.

Browns news. ... Mary K writes the Browns would have taken player xyz, if they had picked a player at pick 44.
Who leaks this?
It's a bad thing to publicly write what they would have, done.
1. because they didn't! and It's bad Poker, there are 31 other teams.
Any other reports from the 31 other teams about what they woulda coulda done?
Who does this serve, to have them write that they would have taken Metchie? Does it make the Harvard folks feel better?
Because, It doesn't matter! what they would have, because Fact is, they had the chance, and they traded out of the pick!
The End!!!!!!!

They traded out of the pick so it doesn't matter if they would have selected Mickey Freaking Mouse, unless some Suit! want to feel better, or hopes to get sympathy in the public or from the fans.
And it's unprofessional, to say what they would have done, (Other teams will use it against you, you don't leak information.
It's bad Poker for that reason.

You know who the Browns would have taken at #44? (The Trade down! It's what they did, you can't dismiss that they had the pick and that is what they did, so there were no circumstances preventing them from doing the other, but they did the trade, so when someone reports what they "would have done?" it's Nothing, if they had to do it all over again, they already did, they were faced with the pick and as an organization, as a team, the trade down was the move chosen,
so that is the ONLY thing they "would have" done.

I support the Browns and not just one player.

Interesting reads.

I still think you are a bit hung up the browns paying 24% of their cap on the QB. That is for this season, and really, we aren't paying that this season.

One also has to look past their nose to see where the total cap percentage might be once the cap in increased which it surely will. I don't think that 24% number will apply at that point. I don't think you take that in to account.

Also, just where do you think Bakers contract would have gone had he played well this season and we were looking to keep him? I think QB contracts were headed to Watson levels even if we hadn't signed him. As the cap goes up, spending goes up, and QB are at the top of the earnings curve. I think as Watsons contract winds down, it will be pretty average for a top level QB.

Carry on as you wish because you do make good points on many subjects, but IMHO you are way hung up on a salary cap problem that won't exist.

j/c:

In free agent news, the Giants released James Bradberry yesterday. He's a very good corner. I hope he doesn't end up on one of the AFC contenders. I think we are a contender and I don't want to see any of the other good teams in the conference get such a good player.

I agree.

As I said earlier on some thread, as June 1 rolls around, several pretty good vets are going to be cut loose. That may be a time where we can pick up a player or two on a 1 or 2 year deal...

Yeah, cfrs made a similar point about player movement once June rolls around. He's typically good at making those predictions.

Yet you continue to blame all the team's woes on one player with zero accountability to others or the team. There was much more going on with the Browns season in 2021 than just Mayfield. Your posts however, accepts excuses and try's to construct reasons for every situation except for Mayfield. That's ok, I can see that now Mayfield is gone, so are the excuses. Super Bowl or bust - no excuses now - none!