Free agency takes place first and once that takes place; the draft is easier to follow.
IMO as things stand today before free agency it probably comes down to two positions WR and DE.
Jermaine Johnson put an exclamation point on his name at the Senior Bowl. He really looks like a great player and would be a great add to Myles.
The playoffs and Super Bowl shows the importance of pass rushing. The playoff teams all had good quarterbacks and dynamic passing attacks. It is imperative to rush the quarterback in waves of pressure. I believe that is what Berry believes.
I actually would not have a problem with signing Clowney and drafting J. Johnson.
On the other the hand the wide receiver room needs new blood. Jarvis returning is a real question mark. Free agency will be explored to bring in a veteran with a track record. Like DE we could bring in a guy or two in FA and still draft a WR at 13.
I would be happy with Wilson, London or Burks. I favor London by a little bit.
I don't see us drafting any other positions with pick 13. Because of the way the draft Board looks and how at 13 BPA should look.
I agree that free agency is important in determining the draft strategy - but the reverse can also be true. I forget what year it was for the Browns, maybe when we signed Conklin? Maybe it's longer ago and my memory is just bad - but there was a year when a position of need for the Browns was a bad year for players coming out of college. We were very aggressive in free agency targeting the player(s) we couldn't or were less likely to find in the draft. That might also be a factor for our solution at kicker ... if there is not a kicker that might step in ALA Evan McPherson then we might have to be more aggressive in free agency ...
I need to watch me some tape on London and Burks as I have only really seen Wilson. I really love what Wilson brings ... I don't think there is a bad choice to be made, but will be fun to analyze like 2 years ago with the LT class.
* Chris Olave is no slouch either. A probable first rounder himself.
For receivers....Wan Dale Robinson out of Kentucky is a key target for me. I'd probably take him in the 3rd. The kid is going to be a very good NFL receiver. When looking back, he will be considered a steal.
If he had played the full 12 game schedule his numbers would have been bonkers.
He is expected to run a 4.46 at 6'5". When you watch this guy it is surprising how fluid he is. He is really good after the catch. He has wiggle to get past guys. He plays all over the field.
I really hope we get him.
The best thing would be coming out of the first round with London and a pass rusher. We might be able to get a shot at Karlaftis at around 27 or so. He would worth trading up for.
We could make that trade with a third and fourth. We have extra picks in those rounds.
Christian Watson WR North Dakota St, will be a guy I will be looking at. He’s 6’5” 208lbs, and is expected ro run a 4.4 or less in the 40. They say he also stood out at the Senior.Bowl vs some of the nations top defenders. Will he be at the combine?
The Athletic have Jermaine going #8 overall ... They have the Browns taking Travon Walker at #13, who is a player they state as being much higher on than most. They like Karlaftis - have him going #17 to the Chargers. He is the last Edge guy they have taken in the first round and they have 3 edge guys going before Jermaine.
The Athletic have Jermaine going #8 overall ... They have the Browns taking Travon Walker at #13, who is a player they state as being much higher on than most. They like Karlaftis - have him going #17 to the Chargers. He is the last Edge guy they have taken in the first round and they have 3 edge guys going before Jermaine.
It's like any rankings..they can be all over the board...at least inside a reasonable range. Once in a grouping of players, someone is going to end up being the best NFL player, others aren't.
For those who don't know, in years past I would say NO to drafting WR early. My montra was we need 5 good one who have great hands and run great routes and you can get one anywhere in the draft. Unfortunately we never got a guy like Kupp in the 3rd round. But what I did say the time to invest high in the draft on WR is when we pretty much had everything and we should go for a stud WR then. Well now is "THEN" now is the time to invest in a high impact WR as we see the teams we have to compete against for championships and they all have a GO TO STUD some teams have 2 of them but almost all have 1.
We got none - we got some OK guys but no studs. If this kid Drake has Good Hands and doesn't catch with the body as a habit...I say GO FOR IT!!!...Covid is getting to the stages where our QB Baker can spend a lot of time with his rookie WR and work together like a hand and glove so to say. He needs that guy where we go no huddle as in a 2 minute drill and march down the field and score a quick TD. Right now we got to get Baker's confidence level back up and once he does he is so so accurate combined with our running game and we continue to build that stud Defense. We are there Browns fans "DYNASTY"
Bleacher Report Brent Sobliski : Number One receiver in the Draft?
Buying.
Drake London is a 6'5", 210-pound wide receiver. Naturally, detractors automatically say he's just another contested-catch marvel who lacks speed and struggles to create separation.
Neither could be further from the truth.
"The 20-year-old already shows polish with his route-running," Bleacher Report scout Nate Tice said. "He also has the athleticism to sink and come out of his breaks, which is even more impressive given his size. London's natural hands and large catch radius allow him to consistently snatch throws that are away from his body. Plus, his ability to genuinely create yards after the catch on underneath routes and screens is another asset."
Is the former college basketball player adept at using his body and length to go up and pluck the ball out of the air? Absolutely. In fact, he led the nation with 19 contested catches even though he didn't play in USC's final four games because of a broken ankle.
But that's not all he is.
The points about his polish and sink are important. London is very fluid for a bigger target. He can drop his hips in and out of his break so that he runs routes like a much smaller receiver. At the time of his injury, the eventual Pac-12 Offensive Player of the Year ranked second overall in yards after the catch, per Pro Football Focus. He was also consistently able to beat man coverage (h/t Feeling Dangerous Podcast's Tyler Johnson). London is effective working either inside or outside the numbers.
On top of the impressive skill set and traits he's already shown, London, who will be 21 through the entirety of his rookie season, will continue to grow and mature. His upside exceeds everyone else's in his position group and places him among the class' best overall prospects.
As long as he's fully healthy by the time of the draft—there's currently no indication he won't be, since the injury didn't involve ligament damage—there's nothing holding London back from being a top-10 draft pick and the first wide receiver off the board.
Really interesting podcast with Qunicy and the scout ... Not sure I entirely buy the lack of faith in the top 3-4 WR's (London, Burks, Wilson). Will be an interesting ride.
So we have a lot of ammunition to move up between #44 and #78 as well.
Edit to add: Whether we use ammo to move back into 2nd or not, we'll likely be trading a 3rd for a 2nd in 2023 or a 4th for a 3rd in 2023. 2023 already has us with at least one comp pick in the 3rd (Adofo-Mensah sigining).
I like staying "locked and loaded", I'm glad our FO does as well.
Clearly a lot to happen regards free agency - but at this point I would not be surprised to see a trade down from 13 - followed by a trade up from 44. At 13 there is likely to be multiple choices and if we are lucky teams will think about mid teens as a place to go get a QB in this draft.
Clearly a lot to happen regards free agency - but at this point I would not be surprised to see a trade down from 13 - followed by a trade up from 44. At 13 there is likely to be multiple choices and if we are lucky teams will think about mid teens as a place to go get a QB in this draft.
I'm looking at the teams that draft later and the only real possibilities I see are New Orleans (18) and Pittsburgh (20)
No way were trading with Pittsburgh and not sure the premium would be there with New Orleans. Saints pick would also drop us below the Eagles (two consecutive picks) who may be eyeing a top WR as well. Titans and Dolphins are a long-shot. I guess there's a possibility the teams before us will want to move back in, but usually you just draft the QB in the first place.
Traded down to 18 and got London (in reality I don't think he will be there) - traded up to 22 to get Jermaine (again, doubt he will be there.). Also picked up the North Dakota WR that the Qunicy podcast talked about
If someone would have told me he would be available in the second round. I would have laughed in their face. Even now I have a hard seeing how he got passed up on by so many??
It is so strange how different teams will look at the same player and see something different?
I have watched London and he was unstoppable at USC. They threw it to him over 30% of the time and he caught everything.
Watching Jermaine I see a guy it does it all. He sets the edge. He plays the run. He plays to the whistle. He uses different moves in pass rush. He steers guys with strong hands. Really like him. You can see his quickness and strength when he engages.
In the end I am confident we will get a good pass rusher and a good receiver. This draft is deep at both.
I hope we get London. I see him as a great fit in our offense. We can use him at slot and X. He is diverse. Big, athletic, young (only 20), great hands, and gets YAC yards. He was second in that category. He has a huge catch radius. High points the ball. Had the most contested catches (19). He had 88 catches in 8 games. What else is there to do?
However, I think they will get a pass rusher first. Then pick a receiver. So, most likely it will not go the way I would like.
For sure. Players will rise players will fall - hopefully we get lucky with how it all breaks. In addition to the athletic freaks who will no doubt rocket up boards after/during the combine ... we are at a spot that I think a QB needy team might just feel is the right place to move up for one of these guys who generally aren't considered Top Tier. Hopefully a GM will decide they see something special that others don't and will be willing to give up just a bit more than normal for the 13th pick. . . . stroll on April !! LOL
Sadly, there's no way I'm considering London at this point. There's no way to know how well, or even if, the ankle will hold up. He could end up being a great player, but it's a lot of risk to use a first round pick without seeing him plant and cut in pads or take a hit post injury. If the medical appears to check out and he looks great at a pro day, I'd put him in the mix, but he'd still have an asterisk. With our injury luck and the longer season, it'd be tough for me to pick a guy that never played more than 8 games a year in his 3 seasons at USC in the 1st round.
I have read there was no ligament damage and he will be ready to go. It happened early and he is expected to be ready.
I have not read anywhere that his ankle is a problem.
You've read. Of course that's the message his representation would be spreading. Millions of dollars are at stake. It could even be true. But, it isn't necessarily. Until he shows that he is ready in a football-like environment, He's off my board as far as the first round.
There's also the longevity aspect. He plays hard and fights for every yard, and I love that. But he also takes a lot of hits, and, with respect to his length, there are advantages to durability in compactness. I'll regretfully repeat- He never played more than 8 games a season at USC (per sports-reference, but his USC bio says differently [and the PAC-12s COVID response was the reason for his 6 game 2nd year,] so I'll do some digging,) and availability might be the most important, yet frequently overlooked, ability. To an extent, his build just looks injury prone to me. Some of that might just be youth. There's also the sense that he tends to always have bodies around planted long legs.
I also wish he had more tape against corners that are likely to be drafted before day 3. It's unfortunate that it looks like USC and Washington never played during his collegiate career. I also can't quite figure out how I feel about his production. Yes, the numbers are great. But how do I account for/weight the 5 million bubble screens?
correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Buccaneers looking for a QB possibly in this draft??? If not what did I miss?
Hmmm, maybe.
The drafted Kyle Trask in the second last year.
They have a lot of FAs on offense and likely a lot of holes. I'd think they would "see what they have in the kid" in an obvious year of flux. Maybe sign a veteran mentor type QB and see if that bridge leads to Trask?
Another after the 1st round receiver I like is Romeo Doubs. Does a good job of catching with his hands. The vid also gives a look at a QB I like, Carson Strong.
Not loving Doubs. He seems to catch the middle of the ball and does some bobbles and body catches. Though he looks fast and seems to run good routes. Caveat: this video is the 1st time I have seen him play at all.
Regardless of the players involved, the more I watch video of these mid round Wr's, the more convinced I am that we take 2 Wr's in this draft.
More receivers are in college because of that. There are more receivers to choose from when the draft begins.
Receivers numbers can be limited by quarterback play and rosters. So guys who could be really good get pushed down in the draft.
This draft is deep in receivers.
I am beginning to believe we take a pass rusher first.
I think so as well.
As Purp said, FA will tell much, but i think we will sign somebody. Maybe not a marquee name, but a solid receiver none the less. With the dept of the receiver position in this draft, I see the first guy we take will be in the 2nd round. This draft looks to have solid receivers in through the 3rd for sure, probably the 4th round.
I listened to a pod cast with Peter King and Daniel Jeremiah.
Both said this draft is loaded with receivers. In fact they felt teams with a number of mid round selections are in good shape.
They felt that there will be many good players available in the mid rounds.
We have 2 thirds and 2 fourths.
This draft is really in line for the Browns. There is depth at positions of need. We have ammo to move around.
We can target guys.
Berry has a word he likes in "investment." I think he is a planner and see value in "investing." That to me means it may take time to get a return on a player. I am really curious about how Berry plays this draft.
I don't disagree - but what I would speculate or ponder: If, for example, Wilson and London were graded about evenly (or even if they aren't) and they are the top rated WR in this draft and stand alone as "best in class" - and they are also BPA when the Browns draft. Clearly (or - most probably, even after FA) also position of need ... What then?
The drop off in grade between them (BPA) to the next position would be a factor. Drop off in grade between - for example - the best edge player forecast to be available at 13 vs 44 - and the comparison to the drop off between London/Wilson and the next best WR forecast to be available at 44 ? Lots of factors - not the least is free agency.
I am not saying it is impossible we will daft a receiver at #13, it is very possible.
It is my opinion there isn't much of a drop off between the top 3-4 receivers and maybe the next 10. At some point a guy like berry has to weigh his options. If he can get a very good receiver at #13, but a not nearly as good(pick a position) in the 2nd round, maybe it makes more sense to take the other position player in the 1st round and then stock up on receivers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds where it is projected to have multiple choices.
Think of it as a scale. If picking a wide receiver after the first round gives you more net value weight after 3 rounds, are you better off?
I said this a while back. I don't think we draft a wr at 13. If we are set on a wr in the 1st we will trade down. Too many evenly rated wr's in this draft.
Think we are all on the same page. I am probably falling into the trap of starting to covet one or two players... But I agree - the deviation in talent between Edge at 13 and 44 is likely significantly higher than the deviation at WR. Ditto DT and LB for that matter. There are players at those positions that would make an impact also.
Think we are all on the same page. I am probably falling into the trap of starting to covet one or two players... But I agree - the deviation in talent between Edge at 13 and 44 is likely significantly higher than the deviation at WR. Ditto DT and LB for that matter. There are players at those positions that would make an impact also.
I'm only picking on you because you offered the best explanation of "why"... and it makes sense when just looking at the draft as a whole.
But in this case, you're forgetting about 1-12. And every angle needs to be addressed with "expected availability" in mind.
Nearly every mock I see has FOUR Edge players drafted before our slot.
I don't see any mocks where more than one WR is tagged before 13... many mocks have us as the first team to take one.
The 5th best EDGE is better value than "pick-of-the-litter" at our position of greatest need? How many 1st round grades can we possibly have on EDGE? That field wouldn't be watered-down, it would be obliterated.
No worries - what you suggest makes sense, but the same still holds true. Is the 4th or 5th best Edge prospect and the Xth best (at #44) WR a better combo / value ... than the top or 2nd best WR and the Xth best (#44) EDGE ?? That'll be a Berry call. And that's why I also mentioned DT and LB.
I don't watch enough college games to know - so I am reliant on scouting reports and mocks - but I see a big drop off from the 5th and 6th EDGE guy to the next on the list. Not so much with WR - WR has a consistent sprinkling of talent through each Round. Seemingly. As Bone said - bottom line this is interesting with a 10,000 variables in play.
Wouldn't the relative scarcity at EDGE drive some of those prospects to be picked higher? Teams could be more worried about missing out on a good EDGE guy, and hold off on a WR because "I can get one that's still good later because there are so many".
Regarding WR... Jamar Chase is obviously fresh in everyone's mind, but the bust rate on top-tier WRs is generally pretty high. Does this push GMs to "falling in love" with a specific player?
Safe to say that all philosophies we've mentioned play a role in decision making.
I would be really interested in knowing if there are "mini guardrails" for how we evaluate draft talent, i.e... players falling into "tiers" and how those tiers apply to any given draft slot. I think "Don't Draft a 'Red' over a 'Blue'" may speak to that... but have no idea what that means.
And "position scarcity" is a double-edged sword, as oober pointed out. One GM may insist "too late, they're gone" and be speaking directly to his team's list of tier one prospects... another may say "get one before the rest are gone!".
Who knows. I think one thing that is also very safe to say is the thumb on the scale of "decision" is how highly you regard infusing veritable talent at that position vs your ability to do it in Free Agency... Even more factors in the "10,000 variables".
Interesting - You make a really good point about talent acquisition via draft and FA. I goggled but found too many articles without a satisfactory conclusion ... what are the safest positions in the Draft to pick? So on top of which player grades out better according to your scouting ... which of those positions is more likely to bust or be successful? And does that impact which position you try to solve via free agency?
Oober - you made me think of a conversation and a meme I saw last year from a Bengals fan who was hell bent on Lamar Chase being their pick. It resonates with my last post ... simply put, the argument was Young and any other OT in the second round made the Bengals a better offense than taking Sewell (who most thought they should take) and and player in the 2nd round (WR or otherwise). Well damn if he wasn't right !
Bone - I have watched a bit and read a lot on both Karlaftis, Johnson and Travon Walker who has been mocked to us on more than 1 analyst. All look solid. No idea which has the highest ceiling! The Johnson Senior Bowl clips were uber impressive.
Talent acquisition is "easier" via FA, but that certainty comes at a much higher price tag. Draft picks are always free, but squandering them puts you behind the eight ball in the "cheap talent" department... which in turn makes acquisition via FA "less easy" within the confines of a salary cap. Good teams are good at "balance" in both areas.
1st round picks are over-valued before they're ever drafted. The Rams have traded theirs away every year since 2016, including this year's and next year's... they've been in the playoffs all but one of those years with two trips to the Superbowl. They finally won a championship, ironically enough, by trading two 1st round picks and the last player they used one on (Goff) to find their QB!
And that also plays into the "bust" argument, which is directly correlated to how high the player was drafted...
"Offensive Lineman at #13", the Tyler Linderbaum thread, had me examine past drafts to see that he would be the highest drafted Center since 1976. I looked at all the 1st round picks over 30 years to see very little evidence of "generational talent" that teams usually cite when using such high assets on non-skill position players (first dead-giveaway was how many times the Browns have done it vs our track record of success). I also saw how few had even reached Pro Bowl status.
You know where all the Pro Bowl centers were found? The 3rd and 4th round. Why? Because that's the value the league places on drafting centers, pure and simple. Analytics is simple in this case, if you're drafting one higher, you're going against the grain of when and where the talent pool lies for that position.
Now, that doesn't diminish Tyler's talent, or have any bearing on whether he'll reach the esteemed tier of "generational talent". There's a damned decent chance the team that drafts him can put a check mark next to center for the next decade. If he's not all those things, and just middle of the road serviceable center... is he a bust? Most would say yes merely because of the draft asset that was used.
So there's another in the long list of variables, acquisition cost vs where the league judges draftable talent per position.
Fate, this draft is very interesting, to say the least.
There are two players, Hamilton and Lenderbaum, who are the pick of the litter. I like both but understand their positions. Both of these players can very well be available at #13.
You would think teams drafting ahead of the Browns would be in need of more foundation players Edge, Left Tackle, QB, or Corner. Except for QB, a team in need can draft a reliable player.
With that said, you can make a strong case for Cleveland taking a receiver.
I don't think the three receivers London, Wilson, or Williams are substantially better than anything Berry can obtain in the second or third round.
I can make this same argument for the Edge position.
Cleveland heavily invested in corners.
I haven't looked at the OT. Is it possible the third or fourth-best tackle falls to the Browns?
Can you make a proper analytical decision in the draft?
Talent acquisition is "easier" via FA, but that certainty comes at a much higher price tag. Draft picks are always free, but squandering them puts you behind the eight ball in the "cheap talent" department... which in turn makes acquisition via FA "less easy" within the confines of a salary cap. Good teams are good at "balance" in both areas.
1st round picks are over-valued before they're ever drafted. The Rams have traded theirs away every year since 2016, including this year's and next year's... they've been in the playoffs all but one of those years with two trips to the Superbowl. They finally won a championship, ironically enough, by trading two 1st round picks and the last player they used one on (Goff) to find their QB!
And that also plays into the "bust" argument, which is directly correlated to how high the player was drafted...
"Offensive Lineman at #13", the Tyler Linderbaum thread, had me examine past drafts to see that he would be the highest drafted Center since 1976. I looked at all the 1st round picks over 30 years to see very little evidence of "generational talent" that teams usually cite when using such high assets on non-skill position players (first dead-giveaway was how many times the Browns have done it vs our track record of success). I also saw how few had even reached Pro Bowl status.
You know where all the Pro Bowl centers were found? The 3rd and 4th round. Why? Because that's the value the league places on drafting centers, pure and simple. Analytics is simple in this case, if you're drafting one higher, you're going against the grain of when and where the talent pool lies for that position.
Now, that doesn't diminish Tyler's talent, or have any bearing on whether he'll reach the esteemed tier of "generational talent". There's a damned decent chance the team that drafts him can put a check mark next to center for the next decade. If he's not all those things, and just middle of the road serviceable center... is he a bust? Most would say yes merely because of the draft asset that was used.
So there's another in the long list of variables, acquisition cost vs where the league judges draftable talent per position.
Nice post, and you bring up a good point about position value.
I suppose position value also plays out in salaries paid. As an example, top receivers usually make more money than centers. However, is that because the position is more valuable or simply the fact that starting as a higher draft pick brings you to a higher dollar amount from the start? I guess it just boils down to the fact that teams feel they can get by with avarage or good at some positions and seek better at others.
I am one who wouldn't be upset with Linderbaum if we selected him. I am also a realist and know that probably won't happen unless we drop back 10 or so slots because positional value and needs do come in to play. I am a big BPA guy, but also know that needs and position do have to factor in to decisions.
I guess the bottom line for me is this is a very deep WR class and teams won't give up much in selecting a receiver in the 30's or 40's over selecting one in the teens. The 5th year option is valuable, but at least to me, it is less valuable for all positions after QB. QB's do take a little longer to evaluate. We see players extended before the 5th year plays out all the time. If they are good, you and your brother know it and take the steps necessary to get him signed. If the player isn't signed, it is because he isn't all that good, or you are headed to a franchise tag because people can't agree on the players worth.
got to go back all the to 1993 to find a center taken low where we are. At #14 the Cleveland Browns took Steve Everitt. You got guys like Bently taken #44 and stuff like that Also a first round pick was Jeff Faine also taken by the Browns - it seems we have taken Center pretty low. It is an important position but at #13 I don't know.
I suppose position value also plays out in salaries paid.
I think we'll find out with how Ward's contract situation plays out. We've invested a ton into the position, draft-wise... I'm curious if we just up and pay Ward or string this along and then "allow him to test the market to gauge his value".
I agree, but I'm curious if they decide to play hardball with him given they have Newsome and Greedy. Greedy has been meh, but Newsome looked fantastic given he was a rookie. We have some depth and AJ Green could take another step forward in his development. Our CB room is really strong.
Just finished watching tape and reading some scouting reports on both Karlaftis and Jermaine Johnson.
Both are very good players and are first round picks.
Karlaftis is more of a outside/inside player. He plays with power and stout at holding the edge. He plays with constant effort. He will be a good NFL player with a high floor.
Jermaine Johnson is more of a stand up looser player. He plays more like a traditional DE in a 4-3.
He has good balance and lean. He strikes hard with hand moves. Has a great motor. I see him a more of pure pass rusher than Karlaftis. At the same time he can come down the line and make plays against the run. He maybe easier to move than Karlaftis but he is quicker.
I am leaning toward Jermaine Johnson as a good fit for the Browns. As long as we have tackles that will hold down the middle.
Jeremaine has that Myles lean and bend capability.
Both would be good picks. I like Johnson a little more.
I suppose position value also plays out in salaries paid.
I think we'll find out with how Ward's contract situation plays out. We've invested a ton into the position, draft-wise... I'm curious if we just up and pay Ward or string this along and then "allow him to test the market to gauge his value".
True.
You need more than 2 good corners, we all know that, so that speaks to keeping him. I guess the biggest negative would be the guys availability. I know you have seen me call him "Hospital Ward". That doesn't mean I don't like him. I just question his ability to stay on the field. Maybe it is just bad luck and he will never get any sort of injury again other than the normal nicks and bruises associated with the game that keep him out of action for more than maybe half a game here and there.
I agree, but I'm curious if they decide to play hardball with him given they have Newsome and Greedy. Greedy has been meh, but Newsome looked fantastic given he was a rookie. We have some depth and AJ Green could take another step forward in his development. Our CB room is really strong.
I think you make a valid point that we as a team have good CB's. Where the question comes in is do we have a good CB room with an injury or two without Ward? Who would we have other than Greedy as the second starting CB opposite Newsome? And do you really feel that having Greedy opposite Ward still makes us strong at the position?
The thought of having the ability to play hardball with Ward sounds great in theory. Problem being there are 32 NFL teams with CB salaries being high and many teams having great need at the position. It's very difficult to play hardball with a player who is one of the tops at his position and whose position is in high demand.
Just finished watching tape and reading some scouting reports on both Karlaftis and Jermaine Johnson.
Both are very good players and are first round picks.
Karlaftis is more of a outside/inside player. He plays with power and stout at holding the edge. He plays with constant effort. He will be a good NFL player with a high floor.
Jermaine Johnson is more of a stand up looser player. He plays more like a traditional DE in a 4-3.
He has good balance and lean. He strikes hard with hand moves. Has a great motor. I see him a more of pure pass rusher than Karlaftis. At the same time he can come down the line and make plays against the run. He maybe easier to move than Karlaftis but he is quicker.
I am leaning toward Jermaine Johnson as a good fit for the Browns. As long as we have tackles that will hold down the middle.
Jeremaine has that Myles lean and bend capability.
Both would be good picks. I like Johnson a little more.
I'm still deciding how I feel with Karlaftis. His highlights start with plays where he is completely unblocked. I'm not sure how much the thinking of "if multiple teams aren't worried about blocking him, how good can he be?" colored everything after. He was an effective, high-effort player, but I didn't really see any pass rush move that made me stop and think, "alright, we might really have something here." Then again I also know I've had the thought "Why the hell did they not block TJ Watt?" on Sundays. I need to watch more full games of Karlaftis.
I like Johnson, but I'm not quite to the that's my guy stage yet. He's got a bit of a Ray Lewis vibe as far as his energy/getting people amped. I feel like we could use some of that. His range/length are pretty nice. He uses it well when not giving up the edge and gets his hands on the ball a lot it seems.
I'm kind of intrigued by Ojabo, the other Michigan edge guy. He's got a nifty inside spin move. It is pretty impressive, especially considering that he didn't start playing football until his junior year of high school. There is a bit of one year wonder worry, and he had a śtud playing opposite him.
Have not watched all of them yet - what I liked about the Johnson tape, he uses his hands really well and he looks like he doesn't over commit. Good vs run and pass.
Garrett Wilson says it would be 'awesome' to reunite with Baker Mayfield Wilson and Mayfield are both Austin natives and practiced together during the pandemic
INDIANAPOLIS — Garrett Wilson has already developed a tight bond with Browns QB Baker Mayfield.
Wilson, a top receiving prospect from Ohio State who likely will be a first-round pick in the 2022 draft, has plenty of football experience with Mayfield due to a connection with Lake Travis High School. Both Wilson and Mayfield attended the school, with Mayfield graduating in 2013 and Wilson graduating in 2019.
Wilson, an Austin native, said Wednesday at the NFL Combine that he practiced several times with Mayfield, who's also from Austin, when they were both in Texas during the pandemic. The two have a good relationship considering neither haven't played or the same team — or even the same league — but Wilson certainly expressed interest in furthering that relationship even more at the NFL level.
"Baker's my guy," Wilson said at the NFL Combine. "He was always a little older than me and he would come back and he coached 7-on-7. During the quarantine, we actually threw together a couple times. So I know that Baker's a great player, and we have a good relationship."
There's a possibility that their relationship could grow even stronger in Cleveland.
Wilson has been one of the most highly mocked players to possibly land with the Browns with their 13th overall pick of the draft. The Browns are likely to seek receivers in the draft and free agency since only three receivers — Jarvis Landry, Donovan Peoples-Jones and Anthony Schwartz — are under contract for 2022, and Wilson certainly appears to possess the kind of talent that could help the passing attack take a jump.
Wilson ended his three-year Buckeyes career with his best season yet in 2021 and totaled 1,058 receiving yards and 12 touchdowns. He, as well as Drake London, Treylon Burks and fellow teammate Chris Olave are among the receivers in the discussion to go first off the draft board, and Wilson is seeking to solidify himself this week Indianapolis as the receiver most worthy to be drafted first.
"As long as it's a good fit," he said. "A team taking a risk on me and believing in me, that means a lot, but as far as what it comes with, I gotta prove myself, like I said, once I get in the facility."
Wilson could be a good fit with the Browns for several reasons. Aside from the need the Browns have at receiver, Wilson, who said he met with Cleveland this week, is capable of playing both the outside and slot positions, which would give head coach Kevin Stefanski the ability to maximize Wilson in the offense. His reliable pair of hands are what the Browns are looking for to boost a passing attack that ranked 27th in the league in 2021.
Add in the fact that Wilson will be able to keep his football roots in the state of Ohio and how he's already built a relationship with Mayfield, and it's easy to see why the Browns could have a heavy interest in Wilson when the first round of the draft begins on April 28.
"I'm open to playing anywhere," Wilson said. "I've been up in Ohio, I've been down in Texas, I don't mind playing anywhere. Can play in the cold, can play in the hot. So I'm excited to see where I end up."
Any receiver, though, would enjoy having some chemistry already built with a quarterback before they take their first practice snap at the NFL level, and that's exactly what Wilson has with Mayfield, who earned the admiration of Wilson after he won the Heisman Trophy in 2017.
Wilson is keeping his sights set on being prepared to play for any team, although for a few brief moments Wednesday, he envisioned himself playing with Mayfield in Cleveland — and that scenario would be fine by him if that's where he lands in two months.
"It would be great to link up with Baker," Wilson said. "Baker's someone that did all the things that I wanted to do. Being a Heisman winner, that's stuff you can only dream about. So watching him ball when I was younger, that was really awesome.
"Having that opportunity to maybe have that happen again would be awesome."
Wow, what a nice showing from the WR class today at the combine; just confirms what I thought - this is a very deep WR draft!
As far as the DL prospects, I've really got my eye on Travon Walker and Demarvin Leal. They just match all the things that it seems AB really values in a draft prospect and in the DL. Last year, he talked a lot about the DL being able to have position flexibility, and both of these guys have the ability to play DE or DT in passing situations. Walker is more a DE that can bump down inside (similar to Clowney), while Leal is more of a 3T DT that can move out to DE if needed (like Malik Jackson). They are both super athletic and former 5-star recruits.
They just seem to fit the AB for what he looks for in the defensive line.
This may not be draft, but , if Emmanuel Ogbah DE, Miami, formerly of Cleveland, is a free agent, then the Browns' should Coax this guy back into the fold, and have him take any missed time by Malik McDowell. Problem solved. We Gotta Get this Guy!!!
Wow, what a nice showing from the WR class today at the combine; just confirms what I thought - this is a very deep WR draft!
As far as the DL prospects, I've really got my eye on Travon Walker and Demarvin Leal. They just match all the things that it seems AB really values in a draft prospect and in the DL. Last year, he talked a lot about the DL being able to have position flexibility, and both of these guys have the ability to play DE or DT in passing situations. Walker is more a DE that can bump down inside (similar to Clowney), while Leal is more of a 3T DT that can move out to DE if needed (like Malik Jackson). They are both super athletic and former 5-star recruits.
They just seem to fit the AB for what he looks for in the defensive line.
I agree with all this. Question is: would you draft either at #13? I find it hard to believe either make it to our 2nd round pick.
I agree, but I'm curious if they decide to play hardball with him given they have Newsome and Greedy. Greedy has been meh, but Newsome looked fantastic given he was a rookie. We have some depth and AJ Green could take another step forward in his development. Our CB room is really strong.
Not to mention that Greedy has missed more games than Ward even though Ward has been here one more season.
Wow, what a nice showing from the WR class today at the combine; just confirms what I thought - this is a very deep WR draft!
As far as the DL prospects, I've really got my eye on Travon Walker and Demarvin Leal. They just match all the things that it seems AB really values in a draft prospect and in the DL. Last year, he talked a lot about the DL being able to have position flexibility, and both of these guys have the ability to play DE or DT in passing situations. Walker is more a DE that can bump down inside (similar to Clowney), while Leal is more of a 3T DT that can move out to DE if needed (like Malik Jackson). They are both super athletic and former 5-star recruits.
They just seem to fit the AB for what he looks for in the defensive line.
I agree with all this. Question is: would you draft either at #13? I find it hard to believe either make it to our 2nd round pick.
I expect Walker to be in play to be picked at #13 along with Karlaftis and Jermaine Johnson. Leal I'm hoping to fall to the 2nd round. I expect both to do very well at the combine and get some buzz.
We can forget about Wilson at #13. He will be long gone, and probably the first receiver off the board. A shame. But the draft is deep enough at the position to get a potential #1 and even a second one in Round 2 if we still need one after free agency.
I agree, but I'm curious if they decide to play hardball with him given they have Newsome and Greedy. Greedy has been meh, but Newsome looked fantastic given he was a rookie. We have some depth and AJ Green could take another step forward in his development. Our CB room is really strong.
Not to mention that Greedy has missed more games than Ward even though Ward has been here one more season.
Somewhat different due to Greedy missing an entire saeaso due to 1 injury. I don't think the comparison is apples to apples.
I really like Wilson because of that body control, the tape I watched showed how special he is at running and setting up his routes ... London is a different type of WR imo - he's going to be more AJ Green/Moss types - less route tree - more going and getting jump balls in 1 on 1 match ups on the side line or running post routes. Not to say he can't do more ... but (some) people commented how Burrows just tossed the ball up for Lamar Chase to go get .... I think that will be London's forte. No bad thing for Baker/Browns....
Watson from Nth Dakota is in that same mold. Can take him a round later too. I don't think he's gonna be their in rnd 3.
I am 100% convinced we can get good receivers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds if that is the route we want to take. We don't have to take one in the 1st round to get a very good player. Many of the people on this board seem fixated on the receiver position, and I get that. I am just saying we don't need to take one in the 1st to get a good player. Receiver isn't our only area of need and we can't put all of our focus on that one position.
Right now we are all flying blind. Once free agency clears, we will have a much better view of exactly what areas are weak. Reports are the Cowboys are about to release Cooper. Somebody is going to sign him. I am not saying we will or should sign him, I am simply saying the odds are good we will sign someone, and all of a sudden the need diminishes.
What may be a need today may not be a need tomorrow. Plus, FA is where you fill some needs. Rookies no matter how high can't always be relied on to fill a need. It usually takes them some time to do that.
I certainly agree. I'm not opposed to drafting a WR in round 1 but this draft class is very deep at the WR position and after the smoke of FA clears, I don't think there will be some desperate need to draft a WR in round 1.
I really like Wilson because of that body control, the tape I watched showed how special he is at running and setting up his routes ... London is a different type of WR imo - he's going to be more AJ Green/Moss types - less route tree - more going and getting jump balls in 1 on 1 match ups on the side line or running post routes. Not to say he can't do more ... but (some) people commented how Burrows just tossed the ball up for Lamar Chase to go get .... I think that will be London's forte. No bad thing for Baker/Browns....
Watson from Nth Dakota is in that same mold. Can take him a round later too. I don't think he's gonna be their in rnd 3.
I believe we need to stay focused on the cornerstone pieces QB, OT, Pass-Rusher, and Corner (no specific order) at #13.
Pass-Rusher may not be a DE. It could be a DT or OLB.
I wouldn't rule out OT either.
Wide receiver could still be in play for the simple fact KS and AB emphasized it's a passing game. They made reference you must stop the pass as well as pass the ball.
Yet, analytically, the valued positions in the first round are QB, OT, Pass-Rusher, and Corner.
Olave is a first round talent also. Great route runner, clearly as fast. I don't think he is quite as explosive and I think he is a little leaner. I'd be happy with either honestly - but I think 13 is too high for Olave. And my preference is still Wilson.
Of the 3 I like Jaxon the most. Jaxon Smith-Njigba the sophomore Wr at Ohio State. (Now why, why would I like him? It is in those few and far between moments when on the field it is displayed during a game, that a player makes a big play at a big time against a tough scenario of competition, and you see something that you don't see all the time. That is why I like Jaxon the best of the 3. It won't matter this year.
Hard to fail with the receivers we will have a shot at.
After watching the Alabama-Arkansas game, Treylon Burks was my #1 receiver in this draft. Then I saw somewhere that he doesn't block well in the run game. THen a read a criticism that he runs lazy routes when he isn't the primary target. Then he had a combine workout the was less than anticipated and a former GM (don't remember which one) commented that either he was prepared and just didn't workout well or he wasn't prepared both of which raise red flags for one reason or another. He wasn't as far as to say if it was that he was unprepared then his NFL comparison is Ashon Jeffries.
To me, one of the top factors in separating out highly talented players is their desire for greatness. I don't know Burks, and I have only ever watched him in that one game which was impressive. So I can't comment of the validity of those observations. But if they are true to any significant extent then he drops far on my draft board
Wow, what a nice showing from the WR class today at the combine; just confirms what I thought - this is a very deep WR draft!
As far as the DL prospects, I've really got my eye on Travon Walker and Demarvin Leal. They just match all the things that it seems AB really values in a draft prospect and in the DL. Last year, he talked a lot about the DL being able to have position flexibility, and both of these guys have the ability to play DE or DT in passing situations. Walker is more a DE that can bump down inside (similar to Clowney), while Leal is more of a 3T DT that can move out to DE if needed (like Malik Jackson). They are both super athletic and former 5-star recruits.
They just seem to fit the AB for what he looks for in the defensive line.
Walker had a great day! He would look great lining up across from Garrett! I definitely think he will be an option at 13, if he makes it that far now.
Leal had a very disappointing day. I thought he'd test much better than that, which is concerning. I think he will be there at our 2nd pick, and might be available later in the 2nd round if we want to move up from the 3rd.
And Jordan Davis! OMG! He might be in play at #13 for us, but with how our front office values pass rush, I doubt he would be our pick. I would be legit worried if he ended up on the Ravens or Steelers (along with a couple other defensive players), but I think they both go with OL in the first round this year, which would be a relief! But we'll have to see how free agency goes before we can decide on what needs each team has.
It's my opinion that, almost as important as the measurables and the tape, is a WR's attitude. I don't begrudge a guy that wants the ball all the time, but that's not the offense we run. There's room in the offense for top tier wr, but he has to know and accept that he's playing a role just like everyone else.
It's my opinion that, almost as important as the measurables and the tape, is a WR's attitude. I don't begrudge a guy that wants the ball all the time, but that's not the offense we run. There's room in the offense for top tier wr, but he has to know and accept that he's playing a role just like everyone else.
Right, but how many top tier receivers play in a offense like that? For that matter, how many top tier receivers think like that? Just my observation here, but receivers tend to be fairly self centered people.
j/c I know the draft is a risk - and I know that there is probably a case in most drafts that can be turned into a "careful what you hype up" - but with so so many EDGE guys all flying up the draft boards, it made me think of the year that Myles Garrett was drafted. There was even some crazy talk about Myles not being the best DE in that years class after the combine.
Tell me who this guy is:
Scouting Report:
"Explosive defender who combines strength, quickness, and a muscle-car motor to drive him around the field making play after play. Has the hands and feet to be a quick-win specialist and the size to fit as a 4-3 or 3-4 defensive end who can reduce inside for pass-rush downs. He has all the athletic traits to become a high-impact player and possesses more than enough skill and talent to believe he will continue to elevate his game as a pro. Thomas has the potential to become the best defender from this draft class and a future all-pro." — Lance Zierlein, NFL.com
The Browns are in a excellent position in this draft.
Pick 13 with two picks in the 3rd and 4th round.
We are in a good spot to move if necessary in any direction.
The draft is top heavy in areas of need DE/WR.
With our mid round extra picks there is good depth in this draft. We should be able to get some good players to develop into future starters or good reserves.
In the end I believe this will be a very good draft.
I agree. This is a good year to have extra mid round picks, which we do, We can stand pat and potentially get good players, or even move a pick or two and get another 2nd rounder.
Most teams know this so trading down might be hard, but I would do that if given the chance. I wouldn't mind that, get a 1st next year, or if the trade wasn't all that far, maybe a 2nd this year. I think the FO would push for a pick next year. We have shown that we like to stock future picks.
David Bell didn't need much time to think of his response Thursday when he was asked to name the toughest defensive back he's ever faced.
"Greg Newsome, hands down," said Bell, a Purdue wide receiver at the NFL Combine who is likely to be drafted in the early rounds of the 2022 NFL draft. "He definitely gave me the most trouble."
Newsome was the Browns' first-round pick in 2021 after he became one of the best corners in the Big Ten at Northwestern, where he totaled 25 pass breakups in 21 games. He was a reliable defender in his rookie season with the Browns and tallied nine pass breakups in 12 games.
I am a big Jordan Davis fan ! I believe we need at lest one Moutain in the middle ( Tackle ) . Don't know if Woods /Berry will ever get the kind of Middle LB I want , so enter Davis on the line .
I am a big Jordan Davis fan ! I believe we need at lest one Moutain in the middle ( Tackle ) . Don't know if Woods /Berry will ever get the kind of Middle LB I want , so enter Davis on the line .
I am a big Jordan Davis fan ! I believe we need at lest one Moutain in the middle ( Tackle ) . Don't know if Woods /Berry will ever get the kind of Middle LB I want , so enter Davis on the line .
Davis gives me Danny Shelton PTSD.
Say what you will about Shelton, but he led the league in JOPA (jumps on pile aggressively). No idea if that has any bearing on the Jordan Davis discussion.
If the draft is as top-heavy as people are saying, wouldn't it make sense to trade back into the 1st (especially near the end) for that 5th year option?
I was under the impression it was more deep than top heavy. Also, I'm not sure the 5th year option is all that valuable. In theory it's great, but you've got the Kyler Murrays of the world clamoring for new contracts after year 3.
I think I'd rather have more round 2-5 picks than an extra 1st this go around. If it's the right extra 1st rounder that could change, but it is all about maximizing value.
If the draft is as top-heavy as people are saying, wouldn't it make sense to trade back into the 1st (especially near the end) for that 5th year option?
The fifth year option is kind of overblown. Most of the time guys are getting extensions before the option year would kick in anyway.
That has definitely been the general consensus, thus far, but looking at the number of Elite RAS scores coming out of the Combine, I have to wonder a bit if it isn't actually top heavy AND deep.
I mean, there are names that a few weeks ago were being talked about as having issues who are putting up mind-blowing numbers. I guess we need someone to do a deeper evaluation of what all came out of the Combine.
I think sometimes people value those combine numbers a lot more than I do. I mean those players didn't just develop those skills and times overnight. They had all of that while they were actually playing football. Game film shows you how those talents presented themselves on the field and to the game of football. Wowing me with drills, lifting weights and 40 times doesn't really impress me that much when you couldn't produce as good or better than players with that had poorer combine numbers.
j/c - It happens every year - more now than ever before because the Combine has become such a huge marketed event.
The two players who I can remember shooting up draft boards based on the Combine who were/are studs in the NFL - Metcalf (WR) and Chris Johnson (RB). I'm no expert and my memory is suspect at the best of times so I am sure there are others - but I bet there are many more players drafted higher because of the Combine and subsequently busted than were successful.
In the past I think we have had Browns FO that might have drafted purely or skewed to SPARQ scores and athleticism. My impression is now that it's more balanced - and game play/tape and scouting reports are equally desirable as measurable explosiveness.
I am a big Jordan Davis fan ! I believe we need at lest one Moutain in the middle ( Tackle ) . Don't know if Woods /Berry will ever get the kind of Middle LB I want , so enter Davis on the line .
I don't know the stats and didn't watch the games - but on more than one scouting report/mock draft - Walker is listed as DL not Edge. It is mentioned that he can play inside. That might account for some of the discrepancy, but those are unflattering stats presented as they are.
It is fun to see guys doing stuff without pads and helmets. What it does for me is make me go and look at guys on tape that I did not know.
When I watch tape you can see speed. You can see tell how game speed plays. Example is Treylon Burks.
Ok he ran a 4.55. That is ok nothing special. Watch the tape. He plays big and fast. He takes balls away from people. He looks like a player.
Wilson is a thoroughbred. He is just plain good. I did not expect him to run as fast as he did. If he had run 4.48 to 4.54 It would not have changed what I have seen him do.
The combine does leave an impression. The DE drills are good drills. You can see how the guy moves naturally. How smooth, balance, control, stop, take off, directional pursuit. How fluid or stiff they are.
It is a factor. But nothing replaces how they play on the field. Some players can get stuck with bad teams, poor coaching, distorted results.
George Pickens was hurt in the spring and came back late to play a few games.
I never heard of him. I watched him at the Combine. He looked like a big fast guy. He caught my attention. I watched his tape.
Damn he looks killer. He makes crazy catches. Has mad body control. I would take him in heartbeat.
I had seen Skyy Moore's name. That is all. I watched at the Combine. I was impressed. Looks like a player to me. Strong but short. Quick and fast. Soft natural hands. He will be a good player.
I had a funny thought today. We talk about what a good position we are in at #13. I think I can prove it - I think there is a list of at least 9 players who I would be happy with and they would be damn near top of class.
There are 4 elite DE - admittedly 2 are expected to go in the first 4 picks - but they still count. 1 DT (might be the most suspect one on the list). 1 LB. 1 Safety who might be the best player in the draft. A minimum of 2 WR (Wilson, London - that order). You might even add Olave and Burks to that list... if Williams is 100% cleared medically, he is definitely in the mix too. . . . . that's a ton of talent for us to choose from and every QB, OT and CB taken ahead of us only gives us more choice and more opportunity to drop down and still pick from this pool.
13. Cleveland Browns — Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State The Browns would be elated if no wide receiver is drafted in the top 12 picks, giving them the chance to pick their top-ranked player at arguably their largest position of need. Wilson, who clocked a 4.3 40-yard dash in Indianapolis, has only average size, but his ability to create space before and after the catch is what separates him in this class.
It sounds like this draft is such that the Browns can sit back and be confident that they can pick BPA and it'll be a difference-maker, at an area of need to boot. Really excited for this offseason to get going.
Just sent my rebuttal to DraftTek; Just want to disagree some on you Browns selection …
@13 I prefer Burks over London @44 I prefer Leal, DT over any Edge — unless it’s Logan Hall (if this happens, then change next to) @78 NO QB this draft - here’s the Edge time, Sanders - (either of these DT's Mathis or Ridgeway) @98 (comp) great choice, ILB Chenal @106 No Trade - @109 Pierce, WR @117 Peevy, DT @155 Eze, OT @192 Hawkins, S @221 No Trade @222 either Dixon, WR, Brooks, ILB or Collier, S
If you look at pick 13 and 44 and you have extra picks in the 3rd and 4th round. There are many directions Berry could take.
These are the players IMO that are in play with our first two picks. This includes a trade up scenario.
Kayvon Thibodeaux - He is an amazing pass rusher. A young Clowney. If he drops to 8 or 9 IMO he is play for a trade up.
Jeremaine Johnson - A pick 13 possibility with outstanding pass and run defense.
Garrett Wilson - Most complete receiver in the draft IMO.
Drake London - Unique mix of TE in WR body. Both a possession receiver, deep ball and red zone threat. Great fit for Browns.
George Karlaftis - Excellent all around DE
Jordan Davis - Giant interior DL player who could play from 1-3 gaps. Unreal athlete at 340lbs.
Jameson Williams - Big play a-go-go. Fastest receiver in the draft by far.
Travon Walker - DL/DE crazy good athlete who is versitile.
Travon Burks - Physical hard nosed receiver with good all around ability
Second round:
Jahan Dotson - I doubt he will be there in the second.
George Pickens - First round talent who might be there in the second.
Christian Watson - 6'5" speed guy with full receiver skills.
Perrion Winfrey - Excellent interior DL who can rush the passer and play the run
Skyy Moore - short but has all the skills needed for slot receiver
Logan Hall - DL/DE good all around versitile lineman
Desmond Ridder - IMO an excellent option if there in the second round.
Travis Jones - Big, quick, powerful DL
Arnold Ebiketie - High energy edge rusher =============================================================================
There are some guys like Boye Mafe and Devonte Wyatt who are bottom of the first guys who maybe guys we could trade up into the high second round for. =============================================================================================
Lots of talent and options that Berry could put together in trade ups and downs. Or, staying put with our picks.
I would guess we end up with a pass rusher and receiver.
There scenarios where I could see taking two DL or two receivers.
My Wish list is Jordan Davis in the first and then Dotson, Penn State who had nobody except Dotson so he got all the attention but still created space and has amazing hands. if not then tke the best TE in the draft!
I think you are 100% spot on with your 2nd round list.
I think in the first round - those DE's are going to be gone If not I would take any one of them. I think Devonte Wyatt should be one to add to the list - I think he might be more of a 3 down interior guy despite Jordan Davis's athleticism. And Devin Lloyd might be in play too. Pair him in the middle with JOK on the edge, that'd give us two absolute stud LB's.
The more I look at this draft - the more I hope we can trade back 4-8 spots in the first round - and back up into the mid/late part of the second round.
If we stick at 13 for WR - my preference would be Wilson, Williams, London, Olave, Burks.
My Wish list is Jordan Davis in the first and then Dotson, Penn State who had nobody except Dotson so he got all the attention but still created space and has amazing hands. if not then tke the best TE in the draft!
From what I saw the last couple of seasons..Dotson has the best hands in college football. I know he is from Penn State not Ohio State but still the kid has THE BEST HANDS.
No more than any other, EXCEPT, we don't know which way to go. Solid arguments can be made to go in several different directions.
We don't have receivers or DT's. We have a QB situation up in the air. That create turmoil for us in trying to at least figure out if we are likely to go with O or if we go with the D?
My feeling is the D is nearly finished and why I would finish that and then go fix the O. My feeling is if Baker wasn't a question mark, draft a receiver #1, but as long as we are unsure at that position, I don't think a WR is going to change much on that side of the ball.
We also have to consider that possibly the offensive scheme just isn't set up for the vertical game. I am not saying that can't work or is bad. It just limits what wide out can do. If they are running a lot of decoy routes, how good do they need to be?
Complicated because of all the different ways to approach this draft.
Berry's first year take a tackle. Second year take a corner.
This year??
Lots of factors circling. Amari Cooper. Clowney. And now Deshaun Watson.
Then when you look at the options that will be there in the draft. Players BPA? Positional priority?
IMO pass rusher opposite Myles means a lot. More so than what receiver is selected. Clowney is likely to leave. Even he stayed he is not a long term guy plus he has a injury history.
Getting a bookend to Myles impacts the whole defense. The DL is what will determine if the Browns are contenders. We are not going to have a top ten offense unless a lot changes. If we are able to be a 16th ranked offense. The defense will be key.
Kayvon Thibodeaux to me looks amazing. There is a chance he could be there at 8 or 9. I would go after him. He would be a long term solution at a premium position. We can get receivers. We can get DT. Great pass rushers are hard to get.
Some like Hutchenson more. OK. Kayvon is in consideration as the number one pick. He is a stud. Watch his tape. Amazing.
We need true impact from the first round. I know we can get receivers. The draft is deep at receiver. And there are always free agent receivers available.
Depending on what happens in Free Agency to me our 1st pick has to either be a WR or a pass rusher. We currently don't have a go to guy at WR and from what I have read it doesn't sound like Clowney is coming back. The only exceptions I could see is if our top targets at those two positions are gone maybe we go OC Linderbaum or if he were to drop S Kyle Hamilton.
We agree quite a bit and disagree as well. I've never been one who would normally advocate drafting a WR in round 1. Especially in the first half of round 1. And I'm not dead set on it now. It seems Clowney will be departing and if so I could see DE added to the list of DT and WR. Of course that is based on where we stand at the moment without FA acquisitions.
Where we disagree may be where I think drafting a first round WR may be more important and not less at this point in time. The long term future of your team is dependent on your QB play to a very large extent. The fact that so many see Baker as a question mark is even more reason to me as a reason draft a high quality WR and that's even if we sign a good FA WR. As of now other than Landry I don't think we even have a #2 WR on this team. The direction we go at the QB position next season is by far the most critical decision this team will have made since Mayfield was drafted. And without giving him the weapons he needs to succeed we may or may not make the biggest mistake we have made for years going into the 2023 season.
If the top 5 DE are off the board by the time we draft and no interior DL are off the board, I'dove to see us pick up the DI we love the most. I think MG having someone explosive alongside him would make a dangerous pairing. Maybe more so than an elite DE opposite on the other side.
I'm just curious. Cooper has never had more than 8 td's in a single season. Don't get me wrong, he's no slouch but do you really think that is enough to rule out a WR in round one? As we've seen from Berry before, he addresses our weakest units by making multiple investments in both FA and the draft. I'm certainly not trying to say a WR in round 1 is a lock, but if the plan is to rebuild the WR unit, I certainly think there is a plan in place to invest in it heavily. I don't think a WR whose best years were 8 td's rule out a heavy investment in the draft.
I'm just curious. Cooper has never had more than 8 td's in a single season. Don't get me wrong, he's no slouch but do you really think that is enough to rule out a WR in round one? As we've seen from Berry before, he addresses our weakest units by making multiple investments in both FA and the draft. I'm certainly not trying to say a WR in round 1 is a lock, but if the plan is to rebuild the WR unit, I certainly think there is a plan in place to invest in it heavily. I don't think a WR whose best years were 8 td's rule out a heavy investment in the draft.
8 is twice the number of TDs that anyone on our team caught last year. (Njoku led with 4) link
I don't think anything can be ruled out in the draft. I do think Berry would prefer to go in the direction of one of the good DEs at the top of the draft if one is available.
So you think a WR who has never caught more than 8td's in a season answers the #1 WR position?
2015 6td's.
2016 5td's.
2017 7td's.
2018 Cowboys/Raiders season 7 td's.
2019 8td's.
2020 5td's.
2021 8td's.
Four of those seasons he caught for over 1000 yards.
You might wish to take a look around the league and see if you actually don't believe we need one more big contribution at the WR position. Landry had 2td's last season. That gives us a net gain of 6td's. Not nearly as much as I would have thought if I hadn't looked at the numbers myself.
To add, I still want Drake London. A big rangy receiver who is an inviting target for Baker. And in three years when Cooper might start sliding past his prime, Drake will be just starting to hit his own prime.
But, I would be okay with a stud edge rusher at 13.
If we do trade for Watson, we won't have a 1st rounder. If I had to guess, this year will cost a 1st, Baker and Hunt. Next year a 1st rounder. Maybe something like a 4th as well.
So you think a WR who has never caught more than 8td's in a season answers the #1 WR position?
2015 6td's.
2016 5td's.
2017 7td's.
2018 Cowboys/Raiders season 7 td's.
2019 8td's.
2020 5td's.
2021 8td's.
Four of those seasons he caught for over 1000 yards.
You might wish to take a look around the league and see if you actually don't believe we need one more big contribution at the WR position. Landry had 2td's last season. That gives us a net gain of 6td's. Not nearly as much as I would have thought if I hadn't looked at the numbers myself.
Honestly - what are Amari's PFF grades ? That would interest me FAR more than how many TD's he caught. Does KS plan in using AC playing to his strengths? Or will he end up being a square peg in a round hole?
OBJ was an abject failure as a Brown ... disregard the reason - he didn't work out here. He went to LA and caught 5 TDs in half a season. That tells me that fit is more important than anything. Just one perspective.
Having watched him play over the last few years because he has been on my fantasy team at least half the years he has been in the NFL ... the kid can play at a high level and is head and shoulders better than ANYTHING we had on the Browns last year.
If we do trade for Watson, we won't have a 1st rounder. If I had to guess, this year will cost a 1st, Baker and Hunt. Next year a 1st rounder. Maybe something like a 4th as well.
I think it would be something pretty close to this. Nice work.
To me that's to much, I would rather just roll with Baker.
And be average.
PFF ranked a healthy Baker in 2020 the #8 QB in the league with 85.7 grade and Baker's rating for his 1st three years in the league are better than Watson's first three years. By the way we were 11-5 and won a playoff game in 2020 I think that's better than average.
To me that's to much, I would rather just roll with Baker.
And be average.
PFF ranked a healthy Baker in 2020 the #8 QB in the league with 85.7 grade and Baker's rating for his 1st three years in the league are better than Watson's first three years. By the way we 11-5 and won a playoff game in 2020 I think that's better than average.
I can see going DE with 13 but if none of the top 4 are there, Damn a WO like London ,Garrett or Olave would excite the fan base. Either way I will roll with Berry. Berry has turned out to be one of my favroite people. Next to TRUMP.
Problem being it's not that deep in pass rushers that grade so highly. At 13 it would be hard for me to rationalize a FO reaching based on position when the talent doesn't dictate the player is worthy of the pick.
To me that's to much, I would rather just roll with Baker.
And be average.
Baker's rating for his 1st three years in the league are better than Watson's first three years.
Every now and then someone will post that graphic that shows Baker's 1st four years were better than Brady's first four years. So we have someone better than the GOAT. We can rest easy now.
Valid point, but the flip side to that is people will bust out the same types of stats to support why we should dump Baker for any other re-tread they find on the i terwebs, so it's really just a matter of balance.
The truth, as always, is in the middle. We have already seen how good Baker can be... and it is way more than good enough to win it all more than once. The only thing we haven't seen is whether he can be that consistently, year after year. Last year gets muddled by injuries and a WR corps that was vastly inferior to what we thought we had (and a number of other factors).
To me that's to much, I would rather just roll with Baker.
And be average.
Baker's rating for his 1st three years in the league are better than Watson's first three years.
Every now and then someone will post that graphic that shows Baker's 1st four years were better than Brady's first four years. So we have someone better than the GOAT. We can rest easy now.
You never know Baker might end up being the GOAT. My point was that Baker has already proven to be a pretty good QB. Would I take Watson over Baker straight up, sure but I don't think the difference between the two is so great that we need to give up the farm when Baker has already showed he can get be a top 10 QB in this league.
Khalil Shakir from Boise St could be a good addition to our WR room in the mid rounds. Makes the tough catches over the middle. Great concentration. 4.4 speed. Seems to be a real team guy with great intangibles from interviews.
I have seen the pass rushing class having a good bit of depth from a quantity standpoint, but not a quality one. There isn't a single one of them I would place in the Bosa/Myles category. So once the top three or so are gone, I don't see any value at that the position for the #13 pick.
I think there will be FA signings that will put us in a position to not be desperate at any single position. That's how they usually operate. If that is the case I think there will be even more value at the WR position when our pick rolls around.
I do agree with you that it will depend on how the draft falls. But if it's anything like normal, DE's, LT's, QB's and CB's will go pretty quickly as it pertains to actual value.
I have seen the pass rushing class having a good bit of depth from a quantity standpoint, but not a quality one. There isn't a single one of them I would place in the Bosa/Myles category. So once the top three or so are gone, I don't see any value at that the position for the #13 pick.
I think there will be FA signings that will put us in a position to not be desperate at any single position. That's how they usually operate. If that is the case I think there will be even more value at the WR position when our pick rolls around.
I do agree with you that it will depend on how the draft falls. But if it's anything like normal, DE's, LT's, QB's and CB's will go pretty quickly as it pertains to actual value.
I don't see any receiver in the Calvin Johnson/Julio Jones/Chase category.
I don't see a QB that's even in the Baker category.
We're already pretty heavily invested in OT (and I don't see a Joe Thomas category guy) and CB. I'm guessing Sauce is probably gone when we pick anyways.
I see a lot of potential 10 sack DEs. They're not Myles, but ones like him don't come around very often. More like Danielle Hunter types.
dont listen to the Baker haters the best is yet to come we got him here the cost in a trade is immense and could cripple us from building from the draft. It also would put us in cap hell. So yeah that is a good idea when we got our franchise QB here already and you wish to talk about crippling us and if a DA drops the charges you think the litigation is over...no there will be the civil suits against Watson so lets see.
Watson is a good QB I was one of the few saying it on draft day. We go into cap hell We bring a lot of baggage with it We cripple ourselves by losing IMPACT draft picks we also cannot utilize the FA market as we are in cap hell Or we keep going with our Franchise QB who is here! Who knows the system. hmmm what to do what to do....You guys are funny smh
I don't worry about "cap hell" simply from a dollar amount. All good teams push the boundry from time to time.
Getting rid of a bunch of 1st and 2nd rounders is what can push you in to cap hell. Good vets cost money. The key to managing the cap is to keep an infusion of good talent who become your next good players as you cycle away from your old good players.
A good new example might be Harris and cycle away from Treeter. We might need to shave some of those veteran dollars and replace them with younger dollars.
* I am not saying Harris is the answer, but it may be the plan, or hope.
We certainly aren't seeing the same thing at the DE position in this draft and only time will tell who is right. There comes a point where the #1 talent at a position is better than the #4 talent at another position. I think that's exactly the situation we'll be looking at.
We certainly aren't seeing the same thing at the DE position in this draft and only time will tell who is right. There comes a point where the #1 talent at a position is better than the #4 talent at another position. I think that's exactly the situation we'll be looking at.
Sometimes it works that way. Other times the #5 player at a position actually does provide more value to a team than the top player at a different position.
Style of play on both sides of the ball plays a factor.
If the grades are close, I see pass rush trumping WR. While there are good receivers available, I'm not sure the grades are as high as some seem to think.
Unfortunately, 5 pass rushers could very well go before we're on the clock. We'll have to see how it plays out.
We certainly agree that a pass rusher has more value than a WR in the draft. That also depends on need even though many people make the claim it doesn't. I agree that if they are close, I too would lean towards a pass rusher. I agree with you that all we can do is see how it plays out. Two other factors I will consider as we get to draft day is who did we sign on the FA market and how invested is the FO at giving Baker a full compliment of talent to succeed at the QB position?
Watson seems inclined to want to play in warm weather and so does Clowney.
So, IMO the Browns are wide open to options in the draft. The addition of Cooper provides some freedom.
More than likely they will select a pass rusher at 13. But I don't believe they are locked into that position alone.
If they love a player that is on the Board at 13 and they see great value I think they could go pure BPA.
Free agency has begun so let's see what happens at edge and DT.
Chandler Jones is in play I would think. At 32 he is a short term deal.
I have watched the tape on Kayvon Tibodeaux. He looks great to me. Quick, powerful, fast a true edge rusher in the Myles, Clowney vein. You could make an argument that he is the best player in this draft. I have seen a number of Boards with him there at 8 or 9. many others have him going earlier.
The Giants pick 7th and have a need at edge but they have other needs as well. If he gets to eight that is Falcons. Nine is the Seahawks. The Falcons I believe would be open to a trade. They need a qb and could trade down and still get the guy they want Pickett. At nine the Seahawks would not pass on Kayvon. So I would call the Falcons and try to make a deal.
If nothing good can be done then at 13 they could go jumbo and take Jordan Davis or BPA pass rusher. Or, if they see a receiver they have to have and he is there that could still be on the table.
With you guys talking about Skyy Moore I went and watched some highlights. Came away impressed with his Qb Kaleb Eleby. I would love to grab him in the 5th round or later as a developmental guy.
With you guys talking about Skyy Moore I went and watched some highlights. Came away impressed with his Qb Kaleb Eleby. I would love to grab him in the 5th round or later as a developmental guy.
Could be a good plan. We might even be looking for a guy a little earlier in the draft.
Pick 44 will be interesting. I am super curious if Desmond Ridder will be there and if the Browns would draft him.
Chandler Jones set the market for Clowney somewhere around $15. So we will see what happens there.
Pick 13 as it stands today will be wide open. IMO we will take a edge guy. There is still a chance that they could love a receiver. They could do that.
Because Jordan Davis can play numerous gaps. He has to be in play. If Clowney signs I could see Davis.
It may not be this FO that makes the choice on Baker. It may be Baker making that choice. Since they've blown this all to hell I think the odds just got much higher we may be drafting a QB in round 1 and being forced into giving up resources to do it. Oh what a tangled web we weave.
If they target a QB in the 1st round I hope we trade down (maybe twice) and pick up a lot of draft capital and target Ridder, I think he will be available late 1st and IMO he is probably the best QB in this draft ...
The musical chairs of quarterbacks will be over by draft day.
Depending on how the draft falls. That will tell the story. If the Browns bring in Ridder and like him and he is there in the second.
I see no reason why they should not take him. I don't care about the draft class. Look at the prospect and evaulate him. They do not know where they pick next year. It all depends in what they see in Ridder.
Willis will probably go in the first. He is at least a year away. Baker will be our starter. He could sit and learn. But he will probably be gone.
I see Willis and Pickett going in the first and maybe Coral.
I like Willis but he is a risk. Ridder in the second is not a real risk. He is good enough IMO to be a starter in the NFL at some point.
If he does not pan out. It is not a huge lost like it would be in the first round.
It may not be this FO that makes the choice on Baker. It may be Baker making that choice. Since they've blown this all to hell I think the odds just got much higher we may be drafting a QB in round 1 and being forced into giving up resources to do it. Oh what a tangled web we weave.
It doesn't have to be this year. We have Baker this year.
I suppose he can choose not to play, but that only puts him another year away from playing anywhere.
It doesn't have to be this year. We have Baker this year.
The Texans had Watson last year.
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I suppose he can choose not to play, but that only puts him another year away from playing anywhere.
After reading the responses other people posted (especially Florida's post) it seems like it would be more likely Baker will play this year than not. But make no mistake, whether he plays or not has nothing to do with whether he's under contract. I mean hell, we were willing to sell the farm for QB who many people claimed refused to play for a team he was under contract with. Then I see you bring up Baker and how he is acting. That's hilarious.
How so? Baker is under contract. If he chooses not to play, his contract rolls over to the next year.
As for Bakers actions, read his open letter. It sounds like something a 8th grader would write, and keep in mind I support Baker, but that action is pretty punk. You write something like that once you are gone, not before.
The guy was a bottom tier QB last season. He elected to play, and played poorly for the most part. He shouldn't be so naive to think we might not look at options. I am not letting Stefanski off the hook, but we are talking about Baker here.
Baker had a problem at Texas Tech and left, he played at Oklahoma, had a problem with Jackson, which I can understand, and now Stefanski. I don't know, maybe it is just bad luck with the kid, but having problems with coaches seems to be a pattern, like it or not.
We have Baker for next season and can even tag him for a prohibitive number for a season or two after that is we choose to do so.
Ow! Coach I just pulled my hamstring. And it hurts like really bad.
That could happen, but is that really the way Baker is going to play like a guy worth a big contract moving forward, be it here or elsewhere? Also, if he went about doing things that or in a similar manner, would that not prove the guy is a weak minded individual?
If he is the type of competitor and QB we hoped he was, that wouldn't be a option. No?
All this hate on Baker calling him a 8th grader and such cause he said its time to move on when the Browns Ownership, FO and HC goes and woos a sex offender to come here and be the face of the Browns franchise all the while totally burning the Baker bridge. I can fully understand him being hurt - I would not want to work for my Employer if they did the same thing. The Browns FO went all in on the Watson deal throwing Baker away. So I get it but the error is all on the Browns that was one of the most incompetent handling of a situation I've seen. Somebody was a dumb bell in this all and it wasn't Baker. What a bunch of Morons. I suspected this way back when I made a thread questioning our usage of Baker. I hate being correct but unfortunately I was. Right when this kid is ready to do special things for our franchise we go and disassemble the wholes thing. Might as well fire Berry and Stefanski.
Un believeable...thank goodness Watson is not coming here or I would have to seriously think of giving up on the Browns. But now these idiots made a mess of our QB department. Baker is gone he will sit out the season Heal up and get strong maybe even work on his speed. Then he will go on and do amazing things for ANOTHER TEAM cause of these idiots. They should have done NOTHING if they didn't like Baker and after this season. Let him go or sign him big. But we burnt the bridge and when he says lets move on we act surprised and How dare he. We messed this thing up - As you can see the FA are lining up to join these Browns
That bridge was lit at both ends. IMO, you're asking the FO to bake into their assumptions that their starter for the past few years would act like he is vs acting like a pro.
They may now be considering taking a QB with pick #13 in light of all that has transpired in the last few days.
Willis and Ridder could both be in play.
I would be curious how much (if any) time they spent meeting with the QBs at the combine.
I like Matt Corral over all of them. He came into 2021 as the #1 QB prospect, and although his numbers weren't as good as in 2020 statistically, he did show growth.
How so? Baker is under contract. If he chooses not to play, his contract rolls over to the next year.
You must have missed what I said. I said I find it more likely than not that he plays.
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As for Bakers actions, read his open letter. It sounds like something a 8th grader would write, and keep in mind I support Baker, but that action is pretty punk. You write something like that once you are gone, not before.
So let me see if I get this straight. According to some, Watson refused to play for his team last year because he didn't get a say in who was hired as HC and you think Baker acted like a punk? Maybe he is gone and you just don't know it yet. He didn't attack the FO or anyone else. It wasn't a punk move and you know it. I don't blame him.
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The guy was a bottom tier QB last season. He elected to play, and played poorly for the most part. He shouldn't be so naive to think we might not look at options. I am not letting Stefanski off the hook, but we are talking about Baker here.
You sound like some of the fans who act like Baker wasn't playing hurt. If anyone knows this it's the FO and coaching staff. If they were really basing their move at QB on Baker's injured play in 2021, they're dumber than some of the fans. Nobody in their right mind would suggest people that deserve to run an NFL team wouldn't base that decision on a healthy QB rather than an injured one. Why are you claiming Stefanski is on the hook for anything? What possible evidence do you have getting Watson was his idea? The only thing we know for sure is that Haslam wanted Watson and was willing to do anything to get him. Outside of that everything else is speculation.
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had a problem at Texas Tech and left, he played at Oklahoma, had a problem with Jackson, which I can understand, and now Stefanski. I don't know, maybe it is just bad luck with the kid, but having problems with coaches seems to be a pattern, like it or not.
College players move to a different school many times for a better chance to play. That tells you nothing. By the time Freddie left, everyone had a problem with Freddie. I was one of those who said we should see what he could do with some talent. We watched him flounder once he had talent. I was on board with getting rid of him when we did too. What evidence do you have that Baker is having a problem with Stefanski?
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We have Baker for next season and can even tag him for a prohibitive number for a season or two after that is we choose to do so.
We do. The difference is do you want a QB who no longer wants to be here? Do you think holding him hostage is going to help the image of this organization and our ability to sign FA's moving forward? Once you burn a bridge you can't unburn it. It's time you start placing the blame where it belongs. I know it's your beloved Haslam family. But it's time you step up and admit this is the mess they created instead of trying to blame Baker for it.
There are consequences for your actions. Unless of course you can get people to accept you shifting the blame to someone else.
That bridge was lit at both ends. IMO, you're asking the FO to bake into their assumptions that their starter for the past few years would act like he is vs acting like a pro.
Allowing someone to shove it up your ass and acting like that didn't happen is "acting like a pro"? Oh dear God.
That bridge was lit at both ends. IMO, you're asking the FO to bake into their assumptions that their starter for the past few years would act like he is vs acting like a pro.
Allowing someone to shove it up your ass and acting like that didn't happen is "acting like a pro"? Oh dear God.
Are you talking about Baker's situation or Watson's?
Haven't you heard Tab? Now it's Baker's fault because when he was treated like garbage he didn't take it laying down. And he didn't even really trash anyone in the process. But that's not how it sounds when you listen to some of them.
Ah, poor Watson. They didn't let him help pick his next HC so he refused to play. I mean if you believe that narrative. So no, I'm not talking about Deshawn "The Predator" Watson.
Ah, poor Watson. They didn't let him help pick his next HC so he refused to play. I mean if you believe that narrative. So no, I'm not talking about Deshawn "The Predator" Watson.
I was more talking about sticking things in behinds being more Watson's thing.
Explain to me the ocean-sized difference between Baker's situation and JimmyG's/Matt Ryan's/whoever-used-to-start-in-DC. How come they can handle it, and Baker can't.
I'm not saying our FO was some high-performing machine in all this, but Baker Mayfield's temper tantrum is just that.
JC...Anyone else think we are now in the mode of trading back to accumulate some of those picks we lost via Watson?
You don't get much trading back in the later rounds.
I just meant, perhaps trading our 2nd round pick....to say late 2nd round, and picking up an additional pick or two in return (as we still have voids everyhere) Hopefully we aren't done in FA.
Ojabo seems like a high character guy with a really high ceiling (notwithstanding the whole Michigan thing). Would we be crazy to draft him in the second round?
Ojabo seems like a high character guy with a really high ceiling (notwithstanding the whole Michigan thing). Would we be crazy to draft him in the second round?
2. Most didn't expect him to play major snaps as a rookie and saw him as a role rusher with upside to become a starter. That could help keep him in the 20s of Round 1.
3. Supply vs. Demand still favors Ojabo due to limited rushers in this class with his athletic upside.
4. Achilles (like ACL) isn't the rehab it used to be and teams are much more comfortable with rehab (some more than others).
Ojabo seems like a high character guy with a really high ceiling (notwithstanding the whole Michigan thing). Would we be crazy to draft him in the second round?
I think I would pass. Much has improved, but I don't think I would like to draft a player with an Achilles injury. At least that high. Maybe the 5th round as a boom or bust choice..
I don't know what the big deal is about that. If I am Houston, my plan is to be crappy again this year then get my Franchise Qb at the top of next year's draft. So I want as much ammunition for next year as possible in case I win 3-4 games and have to move up a spot or 3.
When it is all said and done after this draft is over.
IMO the Browns and Bills will have the two best rosters in football.
Maybe it is the Lake Erie water?
I agree, we are in a good spot and we will continue to be in good shape.
Any year is a QB year, meaning there are always going to be teams who spend a 1st rounder on a QB. Next year there might be 5-6 1st round QB's taken. That means more good player fall deeper in to the draft.
We are going to continue to be able to draft good players for the next few years even missing a 1st rounder.
If not the 2 best we should have a roster that is in the top 5 or 6 in football. Depending on whom else we land in FA and the draft it could be higher. Hopefully, we can get a 2nd rounder for Baker. Our drafts for the next 3 years will be starting in the 2nd round.
Well in his defense, "best roster" is subjective. I know what you're saying though. As Browns fans many overvalue and overrate their team and its players. You'll have a certain portion of fans in every NFL city do the same thing.
And you also have to see how it stacks up on paper. You see, before all the injuries set in, which every NFL team must endure, things look pretty peachy. But as time wears on in the season, what looked good on paper becomes nothing more than a paper tiger.
We now have "potential" at Center - the guy looked really good in his ONE start last year and has practiced A LOT with the team since he's been here. Looks good...unproven though.
We have a RT playing LT who looked quite "meh" last year but fought an ankle all year. There is some smoke about work ethic. He'd be a better RT.
We have a vet RT who severely hurt his knee (again) after severely hurting his elbow. He's quite good IF he makes it back.
He have "potential" at TE...still...or again...with both guys.
We have a #1 WR and...a bucket pull of...wait for it..."potential"...elsewhere.
Yes...FA isn't over and we have a draft with some mid-round picks...but our O is anything but a powerhouse right now.
We have (1) starter on the DL and he's so over-rated it hurts...I didn't say he isn't very good...he's talked about like he's great...and he's not.
Our LBs are simply an enigma outside of JOK.
We have good players and depth at CB...and need another safety.
If I were to over-analyze the Bills roster, I don't think I'd have as many keystrokes as I have here. JMO.
Explain to me the ocean-sized difference between Baker's situation and JimmyG's/Matt Ryan's/whoever-used-to-start-in-DC. How come they can handle it, and Baker can't.
I'm not saying our FO was some high-performing machine in all this, but Baker Mayfield's temper tantrum is just that.
Baker Mayfield has been more consistently ridiculed and abused in the media than any QB I can think of over the last few years.
It was published right after the season that the 49ers intended to trade Garoppolo... our front office insisted that they plan was for Baker to be the starter at the beginning of next season...
But I'm curious, he wrote a very nice "no matter how this works out I want Cleveland to know how much you have meant to me" social media post.
Then it came out that even without Watson the Browns wanted to move away from him because he wasn't "an adult".. so he asked to be traded, Browns said no.... we don't want you but we need to keep you under contract just in case we end up with no other options? Yea, that would have been a GREAT way to go into next season...
I guess I just don't see anything all that irrational about his "temper tantrum"... seems like how almost any competitor would feel under the same circumstances...
You could make the argument (not sure I would, but IMO it's worth debating) that our WR corps is actually better off now than they were last year (with the knowledge that we'll be adding more via FA and/or draft). The fact we have a #1 WR that'll command double teams AND fits better in this offense AND wants to be hear (please please please not another sideshow) is by itself huge. We have DPJ who should be a fine #2 so long as Amari is drawing the double-teams. We still need a slot receiver and all the depth behind them, but I believe in AB.
In the past drafts I have rarely gone beyond 1st round candidates.
Mocks after the first round are close to impossible to predict.
Now with all that has happened. Time to start looking at position rankings beyond top five and see what could be out there.
I still believe we are not done in free agency. But even with additional signings we could be looking at a possible starter with pick 44.
Two guys that I feel could be there and be considered. One guy is Perrion Winfrey. He is a favorite of Quincy Carrier. I have watched some of his tape and he looks like a good fit for us. IMO he could play the 1 or 2 gap and stunt and loop. He can penetrate and is a inside rush threat.
Another player is I like is Skyy Moore. If we don't bring back Jarvis. He looks like he could play the slot. I like everything I have seen from him. He is short but has good hands. He shows long speed but he has the short area quickness. He just looks smooth. At the combine I loved the way he caught the ball.
I started a thread about George Pickens. He is beginning to draw lots of attention. If he is there at 44 he would be hard to pass on.
The only valid reason would be a more highly ranked DL player which includes edge and interior.
It is imperative to get a guy opposite Myles. Clowney was a good fit. If he signes elsewhere.
Keep Danielle Hunter with Vikings in mind. We may try a trade for him. He would cost us a good player for sure.
It's hard to peg, and this year there are a lot of 2nd and 3rd round guys who could make an impact.
The problem is with all the picks before us, each pick made can and will dictate the next in many cases, so trying to pinpoint down to who might be there when we pick is futile.
The best we can do is pick any 3 round mock draft out there, find our pick and take names maybe 5 picks before our pick and 10 picks after and some of the names will probably be available.
I like to use stock drafts rather than drafts I generate because I think there is a subliminal factor there that somehow the guy you want always seems to be available. LOL
I am not even sure what draft this is, but here is the random list of players who might be around.
39
CHI Jahan Dotson WR Penn State 5' 11" 170 40
SEA Trent McDuffie CB Washington 5' 11" 192 41
SEA Daniel Faalele OT Minnesota 6' 8" 400 42
IND Roger McCreary CB Auburn 6' 0" 188 43
ATL Breece Hall RB Iowa State 6' 0" 215 44
CLE Christian Watson WR North Dakota State 6' 4" 200 45
Listen to the draft guys like Jeremiah. Most seem to believe the strength of this draft is the talent that will be there in the mid rounds.
I can only go so far.
In the end when it is all done and we made our picks. That is when I will really dig into the players.
It always kills me that sometimes I will see a guy and think. "Why in the world is this guy not considered a first rounder?"
George Pickens? I guess because he missed most of 2021. When I turn on the tape. I am like why would a team not take this guy in the first round?
I see a really good receiver here.
I am still stunned that we got JOK last year. I don't see how he got out of the first round. His tape from ND was as good as any I have seen.
When you think about it the NFL does not know as much as they are given credit for. Quarterbacks please. Teams whiff like crazy on qb's even after they are in the league.
That is the deal, you never know who might be a 1st rounder. I like George Pickens as well. He would be an excellent pick in the 2nd, even the 1st.
We will get a better handle on who we might select once we get about 4-5 picks away from our pick in the second round.
Right now, we need to hope a bunch of QB's get selected before our pick Running backs would be good as well. We won't take any of those in the 1st two rounds.
OH...we will have to wait to see how free agency plays out over the next few weeks. The signing of Cooper quelled the call for a receiver to some degree. Add another and it might make it real quiet.
I think as fans we place more on needs over what a team does, and teams do take that in to consideration. The difference is I think teams also factor in needs 2-3 years down the road because they take in to account expiring contracts and such where us fans tends to place more weight on the here and now. Us fans might be concerned most about who is going to catch the ball this season where a FO might have more concern about having no cornerbacks, as an example, a few years down the road.
It is easier to find a short term fix than a long term fix, and the draft is about long term.
All good points. This is why organizational continuity is so very important.
There are short and long term plans.
I have become a major supporter of Berry. IMO the combination of him and Depo provides a good perspective balance. The draft, existing contracts, the current roster, player development, free agency, trades all go hand in hand.
Berry has that - plan my work, work my plan mantra. He is aggressive now but also plans for the future.
I have complete faith in him to handle the roster and cap.
Good point on continuity. Plans sometimes take several years to see through. What one person was planning all of a sudden gets torn apart with the next person, and many times unintentional.
George Pickens? I guess because he missed most of 2021. When I turn on the tape. I am like why would a team not take this guy in the first round?
I agree, and that's why I don't think Pickens makes it out of the first round.
imo the way this off-season is shaping up ... I can see us using our first couple of selections on the DL unless like in the case of JOK one (WR) falls to the second.
I am really curious how Berry uses his draft capital. Because of how teams prioritize positions; the first round will go deep into those premier positions.
Also, we still may sign some free agents.
My guess at this point is we may be able to load up on interior DL, and look to provide depth at other positions.
Currently on the DL interior we have: Tavan Bryan, Jordan Elliott, Togiai.
We might bring back Sheldon Day who is serviceable. Overall that looks like a position we need some help with. Berry may still sign some short term deals with 30+ year old vets.
Elliott begins his third year. He has not done a whole lot. Togiai was a rookie. Hopefully he makes the second year leap.
So, I could see Berry going after players there. In fact he may use his capital to go get guys he really likes.
I like Perrion Winfrey. There are some others like Devonte Wyatt who could be there in the second that we might have to move up for.
The pending Watson suspension should have significant influence on how the FO plays this draft. 2022 is a lost year. Brisset isn't going to carry this team through 4-6-8 games...he's just not. The same should be said about the remaining FA. We've signed a whopping (2) players in FA who weren't Browns last year - a backup DT and a punt-kick returner. I think both Clowney and Landry will come back...and if they do, that just keeps us in neutral...it doesn't improve the 53 over last year.
We might as well move around in this draft and try and get as many guys as possible in the 2nd-4th Rds. With 2022 lost anyway, that gives these guys the year they need to develop...as picks in Rds 2-4 tend to need. We have a 2nd, (2) 3rds and a 4th. The remaining 6th and 7th Rd picks should go at K and/or P. Five guys in Rds 2-4 who should all be either DLine or WR...maybe a TE. Moving down a little in Rds 2-3 to get another 2nd or 3rd could be doable. Trading draft assets to move up is only an option if we sign even-more than Landry and Clowney pre-draft. Here's the latest list of "top" available free agents...kind of depressing: https://nfltraderumors.co/top-2022-nfl-free-agents-list/
We don't have any easily-available, valuable trade pieces other than possibly Baker...and that looks like a stretch right now. With the "talk" of wanting Felton more involved in the running game, I suppose they could move Hunt for some level of decent picks...I would not like that.
I just don't see the sensible path for us to be aggressive in this draft knowing/not-knowing about Watson's pending suspension.
Brissett is at least as good as an injured Baker and better than Keenum.
For grins let's say Brissett plays the first six games. He will have an intact OL with a new starting center and better depth at tackle.
Cooper is a proven pro. He runs great routes and is a deep threat. DPJ will have another year behind him. Schwartz will begin his second year having gained experience. We will most likely bring back Jarvis or sign a guy like Will Fuller. In addition we will probably draft at least one receiver. Hooper was released. Njoku franchised. Njoku and Bryant will be catching more passes.
We have three proven running backs.
Brissett will have protection. He will have backs to hand off to. He will have more and better receiver options.
Brissett has shown he can win games. He has close to a 500 record.
So, if he wins 3 of 6 games. We should be fine.
Over those calculated six games DW will have a chance to learn the offense.
So he would step into the starting role with 11 games to play. If he wins eight of those. We win 11 games. That should put us in the playoffs.
I would not say at this point that the 2022 season is wasted IMO.
I hope you are correct. I think Brissett is awful. I'd rather have Keenum...so would Buffalo. Let's hope the 1st half of the season has the weakest opponents on the docket...somehow...I expect the exact opposite from the league.
I know most are siting a suspension. At best the league has been inconsistent in how they have handled "personal conduct policy."
The common comparison is Big Ben got six games which was reduced to four.
DW is a much different case. It was not a rape allegation. DW was not criminally indicted.
In the press conference he has maintained innocence. He intends to fight the civil cases. If he is found innocent. I do not know how he can be charged?
We are in speculation ground. So, I have no clue how the NFL will rule.
Brissett's numbers last year (in 5 games) look alot like Baker's normal line. I think we will be fine as long as everyone is healthy, we still have an elite running game that can shorten the game and minimize the impact of Brissett needing to carry. Hopefully we know in well enough advance of any suspension so KS can game plan, because we know its going to be drastically different when watson gets back. I think you look for another WR or DT in the draft early and some OL/S depth later
I really hope Bucky Brooks most recent mock draft is wrong. No QBs in round 1, and several of the players we've discussed for at 44 do go early.
It probably will be. I agree that maybe not as many end up going in the 1st round as is speculated. That could bode well for a Baker trade.
I keep saying we don't have much leverage, and today we probably don't have leverage. As the draft gets closer and teams start to realize that Matt Corral might not be their future, that leverage increases.
Here is our new draft Picks Available ... I Traded Pick (#44) and Pick (#78) Along With Pick (#223) and Traded Them to the Lions for Pick (#32) to get back into Round #1 to Get that 5th Year Option on the Player We Take in This Case I Couldn't Pass on Jameson Williams WR Alabama, Then I Added Under Rated TE Jeremy Ruckert out of Ohio State, Also I Added DL Help With DT Tyler Davis From Clemson and Nolan Smith DE/OLB From Georgia, and last I added OT/OG Andrew Stueber Out of Michigan, I think a 2nd 3rd and 7th is Not to High a Price for a WR of Williams Caliber ...
There is a little news on Clowney. Sincere interest from both sides has been reported.
IMO it will happen and probably this week.
I am going to assume that. Now what is the impact on the draft? I also believe we will sign a vet receiver. Jarvis? Maybe.
Back to the draft. What player in this draft given the above would have the biggest impact to the team?
I have to believe it would be a run stuffing DT. The reason is the rest of the defensive roster. We have an excellent secondary.
IMO JOK will become the captain of the defense sometime soon. He will also become one of the best players in football. I believe Jocob Phillips is poised to have a good year. He has good reaction speed. Walker is savvy. I am glad he was resigned. Taki is a good role player.
Myles and Clowney worked well together last year. Clowney was disruptive and played with good effort. He benefits from having Myles on the other side.
Togiai and Elliott IMO are rotation guys. We will probably bring back Sheldon Day. He is a decent depth guy. We signed Taven Bryan. I don't know him.
IMO we need a dominant interior run stuffer who can not be moved. A guy to act as interior wall.
It brings me back to Jordan Davis. I know people question his stamina. Question his weight. Question his production at Georgia.
Me, I look at his potential as a NFL player. The Georgia defense was amazing. Many players off that defense will star in the NFL. Some of them will be playing different roles than they did at Georgia. In Davis's case his role in the NFL will be clear cut. Man the middle over 3 gaps. It will allow the DE's freedom. It will support the linebackers and allow them to play in space.
Players with Jordan Davis's potential do not come around often. I believe for the Browns he would have the biggest impact than the others being thought of.
He will be a first round pick. Where? I am uncertain. My guess is 10 to 15. So, we would have to move up to get him.
How Berry would pull it off? That is the hard part. I doubt Berry is keen on giving up draft picks or guys on the roster he built. Only two guys might be able to bring a top 15 pick. Ward or and maybe Hunt with a pick. Berry may not give in to that.
So, if we stay at 44 Travis Jones looks like the guy. He is 6'4.5" 330lbs. His profile is out there to be read. At 44 he seems like decent value. The Browns do not place a high value on interior DL. Given his profile he appears to be a schme fit. He is not Davis. But he may do.
I generally agree on the Travis Jones and Clowney take.
Without a 1st round pick for the next few years premium positions (QB, LT, DE, CB) will not be easily upgraded so getting Clowney back becomes a bit more pressing.
Positions that are more commonly quality on day two (Interior O-line, RB, TE, WR, DT, LB, S) can still be consistently addressed in the draft. Our interior O-line is fairly well committed as is the RB position and TE overall. That ultimately leaves just WR on offense and either DT or possibly Safety on defense. Running a heavy 3-safety system while losing Harrison and MJ Stewart could make safety an option, but I'm still leaning either DT or WR. Then again, if they post-June 1st cut John Johnson next year to create space for Ward's contract maybe safety would work too We'll worry about that next year.
This is where Berry and his staff need to make hay.
We will need to maximize the picks outside of the first round. You brought up a point that I also posted about.
The priority positions are pretty set for a few years. The 2-7 rounds should be used to fill out the rest of the roster because that is where the value will be. The first round is QBs, Edge, T's, CB's, WR's.
We need to score some gems in rounds 2-4. After that you are kinda hoping a guy will develop enough to stay on the roster.
Interior linemen on both sides, safety, LB's, RB's, ST's.
I really can't see giving up draft assets and/or players to move up into the 1st rnd to draft a guy whose greatest attribute is that he's a good run stuffer when the game has become a Passing league. You can get run stuffers later in the draft and not give up the assets to acquire them. People were upset when we drafted Shelton in the 1st round because you don't draft DTs in the 1st unless they are Aaron Donald/JJ Watt types who can also get after the QB.
I really can't see giving up draft assets and/or players to move up into the 1st rnd to draft a guy whose greatest attribute is that he's a good run stuffer when the game has become a Passing league. You can get run stuffers later in the draft and not give up the assets to acquire them. People were upset when we drafted Shelton in the 1st round because you don't draft DTs in the 1st unless they are Aaron Donald/JJ Watt types who can also get after the QB.
But when the guy still requires 2 blockers in the passing game, somebody isn't going to get double teamed. If he doesn't get double teamed he is still going to be able to push his guy back towards the QB which takes away the QB stepping up in the pocket, ruining any angle Garrett has created.
Stepping up a few steps gets a OT back in to a blocking position he just lost to Garrett.
Davis has the athletic capabilities of Garrett and Clowney. His numbers in college say no. Looking at the talent around him in Georgia and you ask yourself is he a product or contributor to Georgia's defense success.
Here we go again with the lessor position too. The unwritten rule DT is not valued enough over DE. But, if he becomes the next Ted Washington or Aaron Donald, we should have taken the guy!
Some NFL teams drafting in the middle to late first round will land some very good talent. I bet several players drafted in the second round will outdo first-round players. This is going to be a crazy draft class.
Yeah, I'm not arguing or anything. Just giving my opinion and freely admit I haven't done much studying about this draft class, so my opinion probably doesn't amount to much.
This is where character evaluations really come into play.
If Davis says, dang, I'm a pro now, I am going to really put the effort in, to my diet, to my training esp stamina... then he could become an all time great. But if he says, I'm drafted now, I made my millions, I'm going to skate by doing what I've been doing, then he will become at best a 2 down DT equivalent to a guy you could have gotten in round 4, at worst, out of the league in 3 years.
I think this part of player evaluations is by far the most difficult. Either that or teams tend to overlook and dismiss the red flags.
Davis has the athletic capabilities of Garrett and Clowney. His numbers in college say no. Looking at the talent around him in Georgia and you ask yourself is he a product or contributor to Georgia's defense success.
Here we go again with the lessor position too. The unwritten rule DT is not valued enough over DE. But, if he becomes the next Ted Washington or Aaron Donald, we should have taken the guy!
Some NFL teams drafting in the middle to late first round will land some very good talent. I bet several players drafted in the second round will outdo first-round players. This is going to be a crazy draft class.
The thing is Davis has given no indication of being an Aaron Donald type. He had 7 sacks total in 4 years. Donald had two seasons with 11 sacks each at Pitt. Davis had 5TFLs his senior season, Donald had 28.5.
Davis plays like a more linearly athletic, but less technically refined Andrew Billings, but without the upper body strength. (As far as I can tell, Davis didn't bench press at the combine or a pro day, why?) Billings actually had over twice as many sacks as Davis ever did in a season when he came out after his JR year at Baylor, 5.5 vs 2.5. Billings had almost triple the TFLs, 14 vs 5. And Davis had extra games due to the playoffs and conference championship. (14 for Davis, 11 for Billings)
As bad as Billings was for us, I'd have a hard time using a 1st round pick on someone who was less productive coming out of college.
Watching full games, I'm coming to the conclusion he might be the 3rd best DT on his college team. (behind Soph Jalen Carter [#88] to go along with Devonte Wyatt) Davis looks the most physically imposing, but they look like more skilled football players.
For all his athleticism, how wasn't Davis more disruptively productive? No TFLs or sacks in games against UAB and/or Charleston Southern, and I'm supposed to believe he's suddenly going to do it against the pros?
In addition it is how the player impacts the roles of the players around him. It is about gap control.
If the draft was based upon only college production players would not be drafted where they end up going.
It is about forecasting what a player will become and the role they will be expected to play. NFL GM's look for traits the player has and how they can develop those traits.
In addition it is how the player impacts the roles of the players around him. It is about gap control.
If the draft was based upon only college production players would not be drafted where they end up going.
It is about forecasting what a player will become and the role they will be expected to play. NFL GM's look for traits the player has and how they can develop those traits.
Pittsburgh was the 2nd most pass happy team in the league behind only Tampa Bay last season. Baltimore is run heavy but many of those are Lamar which I don't think Davis would help with. Cinci runs a fair bit, but I'd rather not give them a reason to throw more.
Did Jordan Davis really impact the players around him that much, or was it as much, if not more, about those players being studs on their own?
I know they love to show the with him on the field vs the with him off the field disparity, but when a guy doesn't play on obvious passing downs what do people expect? Plays are generally more explosive when a team is passing.
The whole stop the run on early downs and it's hard for them to throw for longer distances doesn't really hold up when the more successful teams are throwing on 1st down almost 2/3 the time now. Cinci and Pit threw on first down ~63-64% of the time, and even the Ravens were over 50%. link
I don't know that his style of play necessarily translates to the modern NFL. He's a straight ahead player. He doesn't generally get horizontal movement to free up players on stunts. Fortunately for Georgia, the rest of their D swarmed ferociously enough that teams didn't have an opportunity to take advantage of the lanes he frequently left in his wake. It's all too easy for me to see Lamar exploiting those.
If we were to draft him, I'd almost want to line him up outside and have him crash down horizontally with a looper coming around outside him. He just doesn't have the wiggle or finish to really make plays on his own. When his team leaves nowhere else to go for opponents, he can steam roll. I'm not sure that'll happen as frequently (as his stats show it didn't happen that frequently in college, 1 sack every seven games) with the different hashes in the NFL and players more able to make defenders cover every blade of grass. Mashing on linemen he can do. He could likely collapse holes and free up others if his straight line is horizontal.
I'm just not sure he's the best fit for us. I haven't seen us use a lineman in a way I feel he'd be effective. Throw in the how many consecutive effective snaps can he play concern, and I just don't know if he's the choice I would make.
Though I will say the horizontal masher experiment is intriguing. Closing running lanes while keeping Myles clean for pass rush with Clowney setting the opposite edge could be lethal.
I certainly wouldn't trade up for a 1-tech, so Davis is out. I'm good with Travis Jones at 44, though. There's a good bit more to it than stopping the run. The human element of trust can compound and create situations where players end up out of position trying to cheat and cover up a weak defensive interior. Suddenly linebackers are caught peaking into the backfield too much, biting on play action, and safeties press in too far. It's a cascading effect that we have seen here before. Even interior pass rushers generally play better when they have their weaknesses covered up by a big bad next to them (Ogunjobi certainly did ). Though very little of this will ever show up in any production matrix.
Ebiketie is currently #2 for me at the #44 pick. My hope would be that his teammate Johan Dotson would fall. But I doubt Dotson lasts to #44. Should he fall out of the 1st round I would look to trade up for him like we did with JOK - if the price is right. Presuming that doesn't happen then Ebiketie is my next choice (of guys who could reasonably be available).
Burks was initially a top 15 guy. He was in the conversation as the top receiver.
Then he ran 4.55 at the combine and his stock fell. You do not see 4.55 game speed when you turn on the tape. Powerful guy who is a physical receiver. He catches contested throws. He is hard to handle after the catch. Strong runner. He is 6'3" 225lb.
I don't see him in the second round.
Watson is a lean, tall, real fast guy. He was thought of as a second rounder but then he ran 4.36 and is 6'4" 215. Now he is mocked in the first.
I'm almost assuredly in the minority, but I think fit is a thing in the NFL. I keep reading about guys who are X receivers. We already have those guys in Cooper, DPJ, and Schwartz. We lost Landry. He is a Z receiver. We currently do not have an effective Z receiver on the roster. Z receivers are not as physically gifted as X receivers, thus they don't get the notoriety. However, you need at least one and probably two effective Z receivers. These are the guys that typically go in motion and help the QB read the defense pre-snap. They are also invaluable at exploiting the middle of the field because the secondary often cannot jam them at the LOS like they do w/X and Y receivers.
I think it might be important for some of you to consider fit and need when discussing WRs. I can go into much deeper detail if anyone is interested in learning the intricacies of the positions.
Any team that drafts Burks will want to start him off in the slot. While he projects as someone who can win on the outside as a boundary X receiver, with examples to back it up on film, he has a lot more reps in the slot and his college coach agrees that's where Burks fits best.
...
The Browns make for another strong fit for Burks despite the fact that he would be joining a Kevin Stefanski offense that has used heavier personnel packages than other teams. I believe Stefanski would alter his approach to fit the talent around him and Burks' ability to create yards after the catch in space would play perfectly within his system off of the play action game. With Amari Cooper filling the X boundary receiver role, Burks could man the slot in 11 personnel and play the Z when they went to 12 or 13 personnel groupings.
I also think Cooper is capable of shifting to the slot if an outside receiver was on the board with a higher grade when we're on the clock. He's been effective from there, if on a somewhat limited basis.
I am impressed as well. I feel there is truth to an observation that "All run stuffers can become decent pass rushers, but not all pass rushers can become effective run stuffers." Not an either/or situation with one excluding the other. But we need to be strong in each category IMO.
Any team that drafts Burks will want to start him off in the slot. While he projects as someone who can win on the outside as a boundary X receiver, with examples to back it up on film, he has a lot more reps in the slot and his college coach agrees that's where Burks fits best.
...
The Browns make for another strong fit for Burks despite the fact that he would be joining a Kevin Stefanski offense that has used heavier personnel packages than other teams. I believe Stefanski would alter his approach to fit the talent around him and Burks' ability to create yards after the catch in space would play perfectly within his system off of the play action game. With Amari Cooper filling the X boundary receiver role, Burks could man the slot in 11 personnel and play the Z when they went to 12 or 13 personnel groupings.
I also think Cooper is capable of shifting to the slot if an outside receiver was on the board with a higher grade when we're on the clock. He's been effective from there, if on a somewhat limited basis.
Where is DIAM and his "stats or for losers" comments...lol
The reason you "HAVE TO" stop the run is force teams to PASS so that we can make proper blitz calls as well as PASS D calls. If a team is successful running then you have to lose a safety and bring them up if you wish to use all DBs against the pass then you got to have the teams learn that we stuff the run and all they get is 3rd and long or even 2nd and long where we can commit to PASS defense. How many times do you see teams abandon the run...why we did gosh only knows why smh.
How many times do you see teams abandon the run...why we did gosh only knows why smh.
And that seems to be something a lot of fans get the perception of. And I know people will say stats are for losers. And yes they can be manipulated. But raw data doesn't really allow for that to happen. In 2021 we passed 54% of the time and ran the ball 46% of the time. Only a hand full of teams in the NFL had a lower pass to run ratio in the NFL.
Per the article, it stated the run game is less efficient than the passing game. Interesting thought.
Last year Cleveland's defense never took stopping the run seriously. I couldn't make sense of it until one game I realized the run game eats up a lot of clock time.
The goal is for the offense to score early and use the run game later. At the same time, scoring enough reduces the opponent's chances to run the football.
The worst passing offense in 2021 (the Giants) averaged 5.8 yards per attempt. The best rushing offenses (the Colts and Browns) in 2021 averaged 5.1 yards per attempt.
However, this season Watson will be the quarterback. The overall balance between passing and running may change this coming season.
Chubb will still be Chubb. However, he may get less carries. So, maybe his numbers will go down. What I expect will happen is Chubb will be more efficient. His carries will be more critical and will account for more possessions by the offense and that will lead to more points. Key runs to move the chains. Runs that will force the defense to honor the run which will open passing routes.
If a teams want to play the Browns with 2 deep safety's and don't play gap integrity. Please do so. We will run Chubb until they prove he can be stopped.
Last year Chubb put up the numbers with the box loaded and defenses daring the Browns to pass. That can not happen against Watson. He will torch them.
Defenses will be forced to pick their poison. That will play into an efficient scoring offense.
1. Aidan Hutchinson 2. Kayvon Thibodeaux 3. Travon Walker 4. George Karlaftis 5. Jermaine Johnson II (23) 6. Arnold Ebiketie (23) 7. Josh Paschal** 8. Drake Jackson** 9. Boye Mafe (23) 10. Nik Bonitto (DPR) 11. David Ojabo (IR 2022) 12. Cameron Thomas 13. Sam Williams (23) 14. Dominique Robinson (23) 15. Kingsley Enagbare
(**) = DE options with pick #44 w/ prospects above likely to be off the board.
I am liking Ebiketie more and more and there is a chance we might be able to draft him.
I am not a big fan of Karlaftis. He plays hard and had good numbers, but was physically destroyed against some OTs that were not chumps. Ojabo is a guy who I think had/has mad potential. Very athletic. Too bad he suffered that terrible injury. Boniio is a guy who would only be a situational pass rusher, but he can get after the qb. Enagbare is a guy that I think would be a nice role player. Not very athletic, but he's a solid player who will bring his lunch pail to the job each day.
1. Aidan Hutchinson 2. Kayvon Thibodeaux 3. Travon Walker 4. George Karlaftis 5. Jermaine Johnson II (23) 6. Arnold Ebiketie (23) 7. Josh Paschal** 8. Drake Jackson** 9. Boye Mafe (23) 10. Nik Bonitto (DPR) 11. David Ojabo (IR 2022) 12. Cameron Thomas 13. Sam Williams (23) 14. Dominique Robinson (23) 15. Kingsley Enagbare
(**) = DE options with pick #44 w/ prospects above likely to be off the board.
I am liking Ebiketie more and more and there is a chance we might be able to draft him.
I am not a big fan of Karlaftis. He plays hard and had good numbers, but was physically destroyed against some OTs that were not chumps. Ojabo is a guy who I think had/has mad potential. Very athletic. Too bad he suffered that terrible injury. Boniio is a guy who would only be a situational pass rusher, but he can get after the qb. Enagbare is a guy that I think would be a nice role player. Not very athletic, but he's a solid player who will bring his lunch pail to the job each day.
I really wanted to like Enagbare more, I mean he has prototypical length and heavy hands (but he doesn't really know how to use them yet), but those positives can't out way his athletic deficiencies and he probably will be avaliable in round three if we go another direction with our 44th pick.
I appreciate the football talk. It sure beats the drama in the "Pure Football" forum. I have not followed the draft the last couple of years like I used to. I know that you always pay close attention to the draft. What are your thoughts on Arnold Ebiketie? I haven't studied him, but I saw a lot of PSU games and he jumped off the screen. Plus, the Big 10 always has very good offensive linemen, so it's not as if he was facing inferior competition. I just wonder why he isn't being graded higher?
I appreciate the football talk. It sure beats the drama in the "Pure Football" forum. I have not followed the draft the last couple of years like I used to. I know that you always pay close attention to the draft. What are your thoughts on Arnold Ebiketie? I haven't studied him, but I saw a lot of PSU games and he jumped off the screen. Plus, the Big 10 always has very good offensive linemen, so it's not as if he was facing inferior competition. I just wonder why he isn't being graded higher?
I think Arnold Ebiketie is good prospect who offers something to a team vs the run and pass, but he only had a one breakout year last season, and he is also 23 years old already, so that is probably why he is not rated even as high as I have him, by others. ... I like his instincts for the position thou and think that he has a good chance at being drafted in the late first or early second round, but I am not confident that he will be left on the board for our selection.
I think you are right about where he will be drafted.
I like him a lot as a pass rusher.
Right now these last two weeks before the draft I think Berry will make some moves.
We should find out about how Berry wants to handle DT/ and Edge as well as a veteran receiver. So far Berry's MO has been short term deals at DT. IMO Aikiem Hicks, Sheldon, or even Malik Jackson are in the mix. Clowney I believe will sign with us. I am holding out hope for Jarvis.
I think Berry wants to go into the draft with options and an open mind.
If we can add some kind of combination of these players. Then we can go after the best player on the Board.
I do think Berry would like to sign a young receiver. There are some good ones who should be there at 44.
Most probable are: Pickens, Skyy Moore and Christian Watson. I would take any them. Ebiketie would my DE pick and Travis Jones at DT. I like Perrion Winfrey as an interior pressure guy.
I would move up to the bottom of the first if there was a shot at Devonte Wyatt. I would love to get him.
I think you are right about where he will be drafted.
I like him a lot as a pass rusher.
Right now these last two weeks before the draft I think Berry will make some moves.
We should find out about how Berry wants to handle DT/ and Edge as well as a veteran receiver. So far Berry's MO has been short term deals at DT. IMO Aikiem Hicks, Sheldon, or even Malik Jackson are in the mix. Clowney I believe will sign with us. I am holding out hope for Jarvis.
I think Berry wants to go into the draft with options and an open mind.
If we can add some kind of combination of these players. Then we can go after the best player on the Board.
I do think Berry would like to sign a young receiver. There are some good ones who should be there at 44.
Most probable are: Pickens, Skyy Moore and Christian Watson. I would take any them. Ebiketie would my DE pick and Travis Jones at DT. I like Perrion Winfrey as an interior pressure guy.
I would move up to the bottom of the first if there was a shot at Devonte Wyatt. I would love to get him.
Wyatt would be an instant upgrade, but unfortunately at 24 ... I don't think that he is going to be coveted by our FO.
I like Winfrey, (crazy wingspan too) but he is probably only an interior DPR until they can coach him up vs the run.
Winfrey is a high motor guy. He always play hard. I think he could develop. He did what they wanted him to do.
In the end I trust Andrew Berry.
Going forward carrying the Watson contract Berry will be challenged with cap, and the draft.
We will need to find guys in the mid-rounds that turn out to be valuable starters
I like him, I'm just trying to temper folks expectations of Winfrey. He's probably not going to start out of the gate, and I am personally okay with that, because he can still come in a help our pass rush unit while getting coached up to eventually become a starting 3-tech.
That said, Travis Jones is a guy who can probably come in and start out of the gate, but he will probably never be a pass rushing demon, and might even come off the field in some rush packages.
Either player would help that unit. It all depends on (availability) whatever AB is looking for.
Punt God has Seahawks written all over him. Too bad the Seahawks already have the highest paid punter. Maybe Pete Carroll can find a way to have two punters.
I think we have done that...maybe not 6.....and some feel that the route, but I disagree.
Draft your guy and go with your guy. Sure, you need a extra kicker in camp for a few weeks to help with camp training drills, but just go with your guy.
A big part of kicking is confidence. That is the 1 position where a all out camp competition can result in negative returns. I don't think it best when a kicker has to keep looking over his shoulder with a missed kick.
Everybody hates the idea of investing highly in a punter or kicker, but I think that if there is a guy who you believe is going to contribute positively in every single game you play, then why wouldn't you invest highly to make sure you get the guy? Yes, you have to balance that with how far you think all 31 other teams would let that person slide, but it only takes one to ruin it by taking him ahead of you.
Teams drop mid-round picks on developmental guys that usually never pan out and often, at most, play special teams coverage units.... so, why wouldn't they spend the same on a guy that can flip the field for you? Same thing for kickers.... if a team drafted a 3rd round WR that averaged scoring three points every game for you, fans would love him. However, they call it spending too highly if you do the same for a kicker that nails long FG. I mean, look at the Ravens' kicker.... who on here wouldn't gladly trade a 2nd rounder for a guy who would have that career? That dude has won them sooooo many games. I mean, he has probably won more than their defense or their QB has.
I understand. I just don't like to make it to chance. If you find a guy you like, draft him. If he busts, he busts. It's not like those 5th or 6th rounds backers or corners teams draft have a high percentage of doing anything.
We don't have a 1st round pick. In years past we always had one and a high on to boot. As fans, and as a team we could list 6-7 players and one of them was going to be there. It made it "easy" to key in on a player or two and a position or two.
Now that we are at #44, we can't do that because as the draft unfolds, you never know how the draft will twist and turn. I think that makes it imperative we draft the BPA and not get too hung up on position. At least we need to be ready for that. Players are going to get pushed down the draft for one reason or another. I am not talking about something bad, but rather because teams with positional needs sometimes create a rush on a position.
My hope is we don't reach because we feel a need for a position and pass on a really good player because it isn't seen as a "need". My contention is we always "need" good players on the roster and need to be prepared to draft one if available, even if it is a O-lineman or DB or some other position that maybe doesn't fit the classic definition of "need".
We don't have a 1st round pick. In years past we always had one and a high on to boot. As fans, and as a team we could list 6-7 players and one of them was going to be there. It made it "easy" to key in on a player or two and a position or two.
Now that we are at #44, we can't do that because as the draft unfolds, you never know how the draft will twist and turn. I think that makes it imperative we draft the BPA and not get too hung up on position. At least we need to be ready for that. Players are going to get pushed down the draft for one reason or another. I am not talking about something bad, but rather because teams with positional needs sometimes create a rush on a position.
My hope is we don't reach because we feel a need for a position and pass on a really good player because it isn't seen as a "need". My contention is we always "need" good players on the roster and need to be prepared to draft one if available, even if it is a O-lineman or DB or some other position that maybe doesn't fit the classic definition of "need".
JMO
I want to see my team be that ^ team. But we just aren't...yet When we are, then I'll believe the Super Bowl roster hype.
Your point is spot on...however...if we don't sign a Clowney prior to the draft (unless he's a handshake in the fold) we would be fools to draft the "best" available TE/C/S/etc over the "best" available DL. We need (3) DL starters.
If we sign Hicks, Richardson, Clowney and even Landry...then I'm on board with your definition (implied) of BPA.
My hope is we don't reach because we feel a need for a position and pass on a really good player because it isn't seen as a "need"
I agree w/you. I've went into detail in previous years on how teams like New England and Baltimore when Ozzie was in charge had vertical and horizontal boards. The vertical is like a big board where they rank the players from who is the best, second best, etc, etc. The horizontal board is when they rank their own rosters by position group and then slot how the guys in the draft would rank in comparison to the guys already on the roster.
Their thinking is that you almost always want to stick to the vertical board because you want to fill your roster w/the very best players. However, they use the horizontal board in some cases to maybe bypass a spot or two on the vertical board. For example, let's say the Browns have a RB ranked really high on the Vertical board and there is a DT ranked a spot or two below that RB. They may elevate the DT because they have Chubb and Hunt. The other way the Horizontal board becomes a factor is in possible trades. A team might move up or down in the draft depending on their own internal rankings and the availability of a guy sitting there in the draft.
In recent drafts we have done pretty well with our 2nd round picks. I don't see us doing anything different. We will target somebody that drops ala JOK last year and we went and got him. Not a reach pick just doing our homework and know who we will get.
In the next 3 drafts we will have to work hard in our studies cause what will get us over the top is successful mid round picks!
I could be way off because I don't follow kickers at all.
It appears to me that it is a mind thing. I am sure many can show they have a strong leg. It is about handling pressure. You can't rattle. You have to want to sink the money ball in pool. You want to make that putt to win the tourney. You want the pressure.
This is a baseball take. John Smoltz was money in big games. He elevated under pressure.
When I see Justin Tucker come in to kick. He has no doubts in his mind.
I agree that the success--or lack thereof--of a kicker has a lot to do w/their minds. It's also worth noting that many kickers fail in one location and then go somewhere else and become successful. I think it takes time for a lot of these guys to get it together. I think that is related to your point about how internal pressure can work on a kicker's mind and how important it is for them to get themselves in the right mental place.
Baker has been to up and down during his career to get a first rounder for IMO.
If he would have have gotten surgery after getting injured his market value would be different.
Right now teams know the situation with the team. They will bleed the Browns. If I were the Browns I would wait till demand meets supply.
There are teams who are stuck in right now. The draft will clarify what they may have to do. The whole Kyler Murray thing will be something to pay attention to. Murray could force a trade. Kingsbury would want Baker.
My hope is we don't reach because we feel a need for a position and pass on a really good player because it isn't seen as a "need"
I agree w/you. I've went into detail in previous years on how teams like New England and Baltimore when Ozzie was in charge had vertical and horizontal boards. The vertical is like a big board where they rank the players from who is the best, second best, etc, etc. The horizontal board is when they rank their own rosters by position group and then slot how the guys in the draft would rank in comparison to the guys already on the roster.
Their thinking is that you almost always want to stick to the vertical board because you want to fill your roster w/the very best players. However, they use the horizontal board in some cases to maybe bypass a spot or two on the vertical board. For example, let's say the Browns have a RB ranked really high on the Vertical board and there is a DT ranked a spot or two below that RB. They may elevate the DT because they have Chubb and Hunt. The other way the Horizontal board becomes a factor is in possible trades. A team might move up or down in the draft depending on their own internal rankings and the availability of a guy sitting there in the draft.
I understand how need might make you value a certain player a bit more, but not a great deal. Be it two boards or one, I think that might be taken in to account when the board is set. The 2-3 slots you mention sounds reasonable. I am not going to try and create examples of a true BPA being there and another who might be considered a reach. I think people will know it if it happens, but many will justify it because it was a position of need.
I know in the past I read Berry or whoever saying something like we had 70 draftable players on our board. Somewhere in there they are eliminating some players at positions we don't really need. If we say that position is guard or any other, to me that means maybe to top 2-3 at the position might be drafted if they are there, but after that all the guards become UDFA players we might seek to sign.
Berry also tends to draft a year early if he sees that next year we are going to have a need, or going BPA might not actually address a need this year, but will in a year or so, giving the player some time to find the groove.
Baker has been to up and down during his career to get a first rounder for IMO.
If he would have have gotten surgery after getting injured his market value would be different.
Right now teams know the situation with the team. They will bleed the Browns. If I were the Browns I would wait till demand meets supply.
There are teams who are stuck in right now. The draft will clarify what they may have to do. The whole Kyler Murray thing will be something to pay attention to. Murray could force a trade. Kingsbury would want Baker.
I think Baker is more a draft day sweetener.
I am not saying this as if I expect this, make it anything any of you want...I could see Baker and a pick, and us paying some of his salary gaining us a higher pick....say Baker and a 4th netting us a 3rd rounder. Again, I am just picking some rounds, maybe it is better, maybe worse.
I think once we are on the clock, we hold some leverage. If a team has a player they want and don't want to chance losing him after our pick, something might get done.
Once a desired player starts to get close to your own pick, so close you can taste it, teams don't want to sweat out the next 3-4-5 picks hoping he falls further. They become ready to reach out and grab their guy.
That could happen for sure. Baker is still on the team or I would not even bring him up. At this point he is a asset that is not a part of the team.
Berry would like to move him asap. But I doubt he will just cut him or give him away. Wentz has been moved twice and still brought value.
In return for Darnold, the No. 3 overall draft pick in 2018, the Jets received three picks: a sixth-rounder in the 2021 draft later this month and a second-rounder and fourth-rounder in 2022.
Baker is better than both of them.
Daniel Jones with the Giants. He is not an answer. Neither is Drew Lock.
The reason Baker's value is so low right now is the market. Teams made moves.
Could the Browns trade Baker for a 1st round pick in this year's draft? Maybe trade him to Carolina for their 1st round pick.
If a team thought he was good enough to have the same value as a 1st round pick then they would have already traded for him and been happy to take on the 19M salary. He does not have anywhere near enough value to get us Carolina’s 1st round pick even if we threw in our 2nd round pick.
I believe will sign Clowney and not Jarvis. Also, I believe we will add a veteran tackle before the draft.
So with that in mind my wish list is:
Pickens in the second and Winfrey in the third. It may take some movement or other things to happen but it is a wish list.
I will be happy with others like Travis Jones and Skyy Moore. There are also others that I would be happy with. I think we may have a shot at Treylon Burks, or Christian Watson. I don't think we will get close to Devonte Wyatt but I would love to get him.
But some way some how. I would love to get Pickens and Winfrey.
Teams Dropping Wyatt From Boards Over Repeated Domestic Violence Updated April 14, 2022 By Charlie Campbell. Follow Charlie on Twitter @draftcampbell.
Back at the 2022 NFL Scouting Combine, WalterFootball.com reported there were serious character concerns that were hurting Georgia defensive tackle Devonte Wyatt with pro teams. Wyatt put together an excellent combine workout, many began projecting him to the first round of the 2022 NFL Draft. Multiple NFL teams told WalterFootball.com since that they have dropped Wyatt off their boards because of repeated incidents of domestic violence.
In February of 2020, Wyatt was arrested for a "family violence" incident. Team sources say that their private investigators found out about three additional domestic violence incidents. With that in his background, sources from multiple teams say Wyatt is off their draft board.
"He's off our board," said an AFC general manager whose team needs defensive tackle help. "If teams are okay with the character, I think he goes between No. 21-32. He has a lot of red flags."
An NFC director of player personnel from a team that needs defensive tackle help as well said Wyatt was off their board because of the domestic violence issues. Surprisingly, Wyatt was not suspended or kicked off the team at Georgia by head coach Kirby Smart despite the incidents. Many teams are digging into the issues, while Wyatt has taken pre-draft visits with the Vikings, Packers, Chiefs, Eagles, Jets and Raiders.
While Wyatt has been a rising prospect after the 2021 season and workouts, the domestic violence issue has some teams dropping Wyatt off their board. If he slides in the 2022 NFL Draft, the character problem will be the reason why.
Cfrs15, I can't remember where I read it. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up again. There is a very interesting statistic about drafting players around the age of 21-22. It mainly deals with the second contract. You are basically maximizing a period of time a player is playing in his prime.
It's kind of hard to say Andrew Berry capitalizes on it when he only participated in two drafts.
Again, you are playing percentages. The younger the player the lesser the odds a player is injured. Or, less time it takes to come back from injury. In a statistical world, it is rare you sign a player to a third "several year" contract. Statistical-driven teams do what Berry is doing now signing older players to one and two-year contracts.
Analytically driven teams are non-emotionally driven almost to a fault. You see it a lot in baseball. If Berry and Stefanski last several years, it will become interesting how fans react to decisions made. Let's put it this way, I wouldn't get comfortable buying jerseys with players' names!
Cfrs15, I can't remember where I read it. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up again. There is a very interesting statistic about drafting players around the age of 21-22. It mainly deals with the second contract. You are basically maximizing a period of time a player is playing in his prime.
It's kind of hard to say Andrew Berry capitalizes on it when he only participated in two drafts.
Again, you are playing percentages. The younger the player the lesser the odds a player is injured. Or, less time it takes to come back from injury. In a statistical world, it is rare you sign a player to a third "several year" contract. Statistical-driven teams do what Berry is doing now signing older players to one and two-year contracts.
Analytically driven teams are non-emotionally driven almost to a fault. You see it a lot in baseball. If Berry and Stefanski last several years, it will become interesting how fans react to decisions made. Let's put it this way, I wouldn't get comfortable buying jerseys with players' names!
I understand that is the thinking/reason. On the other end you are getting a more seasoned rookie if you take a guy who is a bit older.
Regards the age of the rookies - their age and 'peak years of career' during a second contract .... I think that sounds a bit like the 4h down philosophy. (I might be stretching it but that's what came to mind). No matter the league wide data on the successful ratio of 4th down conversions and when to go for it, as a team if you consistently go for it on 4th down when the metrics appear correct but you consistently fail to successfully get the 1st down .... then you need to stop no matter what the league wide data shows.
With younger players drafted - and playing peak years in their 2nd contract - it can ONLY work if you select the right players. The draft is hard enough (or it's simply a crap shoot) without adding the age factor into it. If you want to make the process harder and say instead of finding excellent players, the team has to find excellent young players under a certain age .... your odds of success have diminished. And that's really something that recent 'great' GM's have consistently repeated about the draft - it's a numbers game and simply the best way to draft better is to have more picks in the draft.
We'll see - I think Berry has been very, very good so far. Is that going to be a consistent trend? Or is he going to revert to the league mean at some point?
Cfrs15, I can't remember where I read it. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up again. There is a very interesting statistic about drafting players around the age of 21-22. It mainly deals with the second contract. You are basically maximizing a period of time a player is playing in his prime.
It's kind of hard to say Andrew Berry capitalizes on it when he only participated in two drafts.
Again, you are playing percentages. The younger the player the lesser the odds a player is injured. Or, less time it takes to come back from injury. In a statistical world, it is rare you sign a player to a third "several year" contract. Statistical-driven teams do what Berry is doing now signing older players to one and two-year contracts.
Analytically driven teams are non-emotionally driven almost to a fault. You see it a lot in baseball. If Berry and Stefanski last several years, it will become interesting how fans react to decisions made. Let's put it this way, I wouldn't get comfortable buying jerseys with players' names!
I understand that is the thinking/reason. On the other end you are getting a more seasoned rookie if you take a guy who is a bit older.
That's pretty drastic, but again, Berry has a very small sample size.
VERS: I saw your post in the other draft thread about Belichick and Newsome drafting for the long term. Interested in your take as to why we see them at the bottom of the chart above.
That's pretty drastic, but again, Berry has a very small sample size.
VERS: I saw your post in the other draft thread about Belichick and Newsome drafting for the long term. Interested in your take as to why we see them at the bottom of the chart above.
I may have misinterpreted the chart, but i thought it was referring to average age of player drafted. I don't know enough about the correlation of average age to BPA to make an intelligent observation. Sorry, I'd like to speak like I have some knowledge of the comparisons because it would be a nice football conversation, but I have no idea. The only position I have ever really paid attention to in regards to age is the Quarterbacks. It seems to me that the older QBs w/a lot of collegiate experience might play better early and that the younger guys might have a longer learning curve.
Yeah, it was a strange question on my part anyway. Should have just said what I thought and asked your opinion, as your post in the other thread ties into my thinking.
When I saw the age chart and BB and Newsome at the bottom (drafting older players), the first thing that popped into my head is Bill saying "I don't want to hold his hand and wipe his @ss, I want him on the field ready to fill the role". Why? Because his (and Newsome's) organization is already "plug and play". They're not grooming anyone, they're not trying to mold a player. Next man up in these orgs means now, if you can't cut it, you get chewed up and spit out and they move on.
I'm rambling. Bottom line... one type of org is always searching for that guy and buys itself time by drafting younger as a habit. The other one has a clear path to plugging you in to a winning system. Either you're the guy or you're not, they aren't waiting around on a wing and a prayer. The future and long term is NOW.
I do not know which strategy is better. I would say that BPA is always the way to go. You are building for the long term. I would say that if you have two guys w/the very same grade or stacked right next to each other on your vertical board, say 43 and 44, you might want to go to your Horizontal board next. After those two things were considered and the two guys were still viewed almost equally, I would then turn to the age factor and take the younger guy. However, I don't think it's a good idea to have a younger player jump jump guys who are higher on your Vertical board. It's just my opinion, but I think it would be a mistake to put age ahead of your rankings on the Vertical and Horizontal boards.
These so called "Experts" have pushed a group of average at best QB's up the draft boards when the draft talk began not One of them were projected as a first rounder, now they think its possible 4 could make it into the first round, that's good news for us
This year’s QB class has a very Christian Ponder/Blaine Gabbert feel to it. Guys that’ll be taken in the first round that have no real first round qualities to warrant being taken in the first round.
This year’s QB class has a very Christian Ponder/Blaine Gabbert feel to it. Guys that’ll be taken in the first round that have no real first round qualities to warrant being taken in the first round.
I've seen some breakdowns on Ridder (maybe here?) that made him look like a stud in the waiting. I am not keen on Pickett. Wallis looks too raw for a top 20 pick. But then I dissed Allen because of his low % completion for Wyoming.
Willis is a projection. That is because he has a big arm and is a real run threat. He throws a real good deep ball. The issue is he came from from a single read RPO type offense. "There is your throw. If covered run."
He has to learn the NFL game. If he he does. He could be special. "If."
Before Watson. I was in on drafting Ridder in the second. He is athletic. He won a lot of games. He is a mature leader. He raised a entire program.
He can read a field and go to a secondary route. He has nice touch. He looks like a guy you can develop. Ball placement needs some work. He would be worth taking in the second. He has good NFL traits. I like him more than I do Pickett.
We are not in the qb market. That is a good thing.
This year’s QB class has a very Christian Ponder/Blaine Gabbert feel to it. Guys that’ll be taken in the first round that have no real first round qualities to warrant being taken in the first round.
No doubt. One of the weakest classes in years.
That's good for us. That many more players will fall to the 2nd round so our pick at 44 might be like a pick at 36 in other years.
Lurk every now and again. Any how, you guys know i'm a draft nerd i did a Browns mock. Been so long that i can't remember how to post an image on here.
Anyhow.... [img]blob:https://twitter.com/a2f0a38a-3440-42ff-be1f-4d441507fa68[/img] My Browns mock drfat
Positions that hold the most value in the 5th-6th rounds include Defensive End. Players worth the Browns trading up from pick 202 include? ... we get there every year. This discussion happens every year, I'm just hoping to have it 5? days early.
I'm saying the Defensive line can be addressed in rounds 4-6th+ MORE EASILY than the lack of Wr's can be addressed in rounds 4-6 and later.
NFL Draft 2022: 7 sleepers to watch in the late rounds Published: Apr. 26, 2022, 6:00 a.m.
By Tim Bielik, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio — With only two days left until the 2022 NFL Draft, everyone knows who the top players are in this class. But drafts are not only about the top players.
There are seven rounds, and plenty of great players can be found in later rounds. They can be passed over due to either lack of production, poor athletic testing or injury issues.
Those players are the sleepers. Every team looks for them on the third day. But they’re hard to find.
Here are seven who could fit the mold of sleeper in this year’s draft.
Dane Belton, safety, Iowa
Height, weight: 6-foot, 205 pounds.
2021 stats: 30 solo tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 5 interceptions, 7 passes defensed.
Belton has gained some extra attention with his testing numbers, including a 3-cone drill time of 6.74 seconds at his pro day. He was first-team All-Big Ten in 2021 and started 26 games for Iowa.
Where he excels is in coverage where he can read the eyes of the quarterback and anticipate passes. But he has issues with his backpedal and could stand to add a few pounds.
Thomas Booker, defensive tackle, Stanford
Height, weight: 6-3, 301 pounds.
2021 stats: 59 tackles, 1 sack, 5 TFLs.
Like Belton, Booker raised some eyebrows after his athletic testing. In addition to a 4.94-second 40-yard dash, he had a 7.33-second 3-cone and did 31 reps on the bench press.
Booker has a good first step and also plays with strength. However, he wasn’t extremely productive at Stanford despite his athletic tools.
With his intelligence and athleticism, he has the ability to at least crack a defensive tackle rotation.
Gunter played a large role in Coastal Carolina’s talented defense the last two seasons with 13 sacks and 22.5 tackles for loss. His quickness and aggressive play style stand out.
Where he needs to improve is in his technique. If he can do that, his athletic tools like his quickness and power can be better utilized.
McFadden is one of the better downhill linebackers who will be available on Day 3. He’s at his best attacking the line of scrimmage, and he is a quicker linebacker with a 3-cone time of 6.88 seconds.
He is a shorter linebacker and doesn’t have ideal range in coverage. McFadden’s ideal spot in an NFL defense might be as a middle linebacker because of how he reads the play and how well he tackles.
Philips is likely a slot-only receiver in the NFL. But if that’s what he is, he has a chance to be a very good one.
A big reason is how quick he is. He has a 3-cone time of 6.75 seconds, 0.05 seconds faster than Hunter Renfrow’s 3-cone time in his combine. That time backs up one of Philips’ strengths, which is his ability to separate from coverage.
Receivers who can separate and catch the ball the way Philips does can find a place in the NFL and be productive. If he can be close to what Renfrow is in the NFL, he could be a real steal.
Zach Tom, interior offensive lineman, Wake Forest
Height, weight: 6-4, 304 pounds.
Tom played most of his collegiate career at offensive tackle but might be best served as an interior lineman in the NFL because he’s not very long.
But he is a very athletic lineman, especially when it comes to quickness. He ran the short shuttle in 4.47 seconds at the combine, which has been a sign of great NFL success according to Josh Norris of Underdog Fantasy.
He may need to get stronger, but Tom has rare athletic tools for his position.
Wydermyer was considered as possibly the top tight end in this year’s draft class after the season. But he had a very poor pro day, running the 40 in 5.02 seconds and only having a vertical jump of 25.5 inches.
Those numbers may have pushed him down the board so far that he may now be underrated. He was productive at Texas A&M with back-to-back seasons of 500-plus yards receiving.
This year’s QB class has a very Christian Ponder/Blaine Gabbert feel to it. Guys that’ll be taken in the first round that have no real first round qualities to warrant being taken in the first round.
No doubt. One of the weakest classes in years.
That's good for us. That many more players will fall to the 2nd round so our pick at 44 might be like a pick at 36 in other years.
I don't think it will be good for the Browns. I don't believe there as many idiot GM's around the league as some people do that will overdraft many of these guys in the first or early second. Two, maybe three at the most. I'm sure there will be some players who drop. That happens almost every year. But it won't be because four or five QB's are chosen before the Browns pick.
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we get there every year. This discussion happens every year, I'm just hoping to have it 5? days early.