I didn't see a thread specifically for Pat and though hes in quite a few here and there I think he's deserving of his own at this point. Below are links to various tapes of interest and I'd just generally like peoples opinions ONLY AFTER WATCHING GAME TAPE THEMSELVES PLEASE. Sorry for that but if we could keep this educated please and thank you. I've included two tapes against his best pass defenses the last 2 years to judge his progression this year and a highlight tape. They say not to judge a highlight tape but as long as that isn't all you watch I think it's a good tool to judge a ceiling.
He is a very polarizing prospect so I'm curious how you guys veiw young Pat and i think it will breed good conversation. I will share my thoughts later.
pros: very strong arm and throws with very nice velocity has nice anticipation seems to see the field very well head stays clear under pressure
cons: very bad footwork poor throwing technique
I think he is an interesting prospect for a say a third round pick. I think Hue could clean up his technique and turn it into something worth having in 2-3 seasons. I think Hue could turn him into a very good QB.
If we kept rg3 and kessler I would love to have this guy as a #3 and see what he turns into.
I agree with you Razor, but I think he'll be a riser through the Draft process. I've read that he got a 1st to 2nd grade from the advisory board and I think that's where he will end up.
I'd be much more comfortable in the 2nd, and would still like him to sit for a while.
Think he's the best down field thrower in the class and that seems to fit our receivers and what Hue seems to want to do.
He's a project like the rest, but the one I find myself leaning towards.
I could see him going in the second but I don't think he belongs there because he is going to need to be coached up a bit. I think he has plenty of potential though.
Wildly inaccurate? I think that's a bit of a stretch. I'll go back and look at the tape as he was one of the first QBs I looked at.
65.7 Completion percentage on 591 passes. 7 INTs fewer than Watson on more passes (a dozen or so). 1 more INT than Kizer on 230(ish) more passes. 4 More INTs than Trubisky on 150(ish) more passes.
Mahomes had the highest average of the 4 at 8.5 yards (Trubisky next at 8.4 surprised me a bit)
He showed more drop it in the bucket-type, down field passes than I recall from the others.
He also rushed for 12 TDs this season, 3 more than the "running" QB Watson.
He does have rough edges. I don't like him as much as I liked Wentz, but I think he has nice tools and fits Hue's philosophy. I think he could be the best QB out of this class, but probably not till down the road.
Couple of my uneducated observations from the Baylor game:
2:09 - really nice throw for the TD.
3:29 - 3rd and 7, pressure, stepped up, kind of a jump throw, too high, incomplete 3:52 - beautiful deep ball. TD. Had all day, great protection. 4:24 - TD but throw behind the receiver. 5:27 - nice throw to the flat under duress but should have thrown it away 5:57 - couldn't tell who the read was but 2 guys were wide open, nice throw although a little behind. 6:34 - just avoided getting levelled, not sure he detected that pressure. 6:50 - incomplete pass, should have made that 7:12 - intentional ground penalty 8:13 - threw it away, good decision 8:21 - tipped pass lucky not to be intercepted 8:43 - best throw of the game. Stepped up under pressure and a beautiful pass that dropped into the receiver's basket but was dropped. Really impressive throw. 9:36 - underthrown pass. 10:04 - TD pass, nice back shoulder throw, but the receiver pushed off. Should have been called OPI. 10:20 - throw off the back foot. 10:43 - lovely deep ball again. Stepped into the throw, on the money.
General: Quick release, compact action Pretty accurate on the shorter passes, showed some touch, but off on other occasions. Mechanics? Some really nice long passes - obviously has the arm Keeps his eyes downfield and displayed some pocket awareness, moving up the pocket - his best throws were when he stepped up and into them.
However... Threw off the backfoot, didnt seem wholly balanced on some throws. Only from the Shotgun Not sure on him going through progressions. Are his decisions mostly pre-snap? Seems to be looking one way. Ball placement was erratic - needs to be more consistent but some of his deep balls were things of beauty.
He has talent and some of what I saw can be fixed in terms of mechanics I would assume. The bigger question - can he make the mental leap, operate under center, etc.
Intriguing though - that game showed positives and negatives. Is he any better than Kessler at this point? Admittedly he has the arm but I value accuracy and decision making more than that to a point. Not saying Kessler is the answer either, just think it's useful to consider them against each other?
Apologies for the amateur nature of my comments - I ain't no expert.
Wildly inaccurate? I think that's a bit of a stretch. I'll go back and look at the tape as he was one of the first QBs I looked at.
65.7 Completion percentage on 591 passes.
Ahhhh........another guy who uses completion percentage to judge accuracy.
The guy has a lot of great throws, but he also misses a ton of throws. I am not the only one who feels that way, so perhaps it isn't that much of a "stretch."
Quote:
2017 NFL Draft: Patrick Mahomes II Scouting Report by jonfox4 months agoFollow @TheBigFoxx TWEET SHARE x COMMENT Welcome to the first of at least 1 million words written up about the draft stock of Patrick Mahomes II.
Patrick Mahomes II is a big enigma for the 2017 NFL draft. He puts up big numbers but is that because he’s talented or because he plays in a run and shoot offense in a conference that doesn’t play a lick of defense?
And when you put on the tape of Mahomes, he makes some amazing throws on the run with a flick of his wrist and then he botches up some very easy throws that should be made by every passer.
Mechanically, Mahomes is pretty sound. He has a nice clean delivery without any sort of hitch and good arm talent. And he sometimes makes throws which have jaw dropping placement. Then in the next play, he one hops the ball to a wide open wideout in the flats.
One thing that he consistently struggles with is ball placement when he goes deep. He’s made his career at Texas Tech as a quick passing thrower and deep balls are far from his strength.
Much like Mason Rudolph and any number of spread/veer offense quarterbacks, their lack of arm strength is hidden by the quick reads and 4-5 receiving targets out on the same play.
There’s arm talent to work with here with Mahomes. A smart team will stash and teach him. A dumb one is going to think that he can start as a rookie.
What really worries me is that that offense he plays in is telling him to find an open wideout in 3 seconds and go to the hot read or try to run with the ball if no one is open.
This needs to be taught out of him if he’s going to have any chance of making it in the NFL.
Draft Grade: late 4th
There’s just too much risk here. There’s been a ton of college quarterbacks who’ve put up big numbers like Mahomes has done in a gimmicky offense. And while his mechanics are pro ready, I don’t think that his football IQ or deep ball is at the same level.
I'm pretty sure I watch as much tape as anyone on this board and more than most, I don't just scout box scores.
However, when someone makes an outlandish claim like calling a QB "wildly inaccurate" I try to verify what I had seen with the numbers. The numbers which are most commonly used to measure accuracy don't seem to back it up.
Not the most accurate, sure, but wildly seemed a bit excessive. When you throw as often as he did from behind a porous offensive line often when trailing because the defense was awful, there are going to be bad throws.
Texas Tech had the 2nd highest percentage of passing plays behind only Washington State at 62.82%.
According to football outsiders, Texas Tech was only slightly below average as far as sack rate, but I am still trying to track down QB hits and pressures.
1st - when looking at the numbers, there needs to be a correction for the bubble screen. They inflate completion percentage. Unfortunately, no easy way to do it.
2nd - Mahomes is wildly inaccurate - AT TIMES. I capitalize at times because it is important. No doubt, he makes some amazing throws. But other times he makes a throw and you're left shaking your head wondering what the heck.
I submit the WVU game for your review. But again, he is wildly inaccurate AT TIMES.
I refer you to the WVU game - the link is below. Look at the throws at time mark:
0:03 0:33 5:57 7:28 9:00 9:18 13:06 - arguable if wildly inaccurate or just inaccurate
I didn't watch the whole cut-up I watched the start then randomly clicked in various parts of it. These are examples to show you times when he was wildly inaccurate with his throws. I didn't include throws when he was under lots of pressure.
And before the spin accusations start (not from you grimm but some others who like to throw that around), no I did not include his good throws. I am not arguing that he doesn't make some good throws. Actually, he makes some amazing throws (4:38 and 4:55). I am just demonstrating that AT TIMES he can be wildly inaccurate.
My take on Mahomes, and if you don't agree with it, that's fine.
He has huge flaws in his mechanics and that leads to being inaccurate. A majority of his throws are off-balance even when he has time. When he does have good mechanics, he hits his WR's on a frozen rope.
He has a crap o-line and has resorted to backyard football to make up for it. He has a little Brett Farve/Doug Flutie in him.
He is very mobile in the pocket, but forgets mechanics when he does so.
He has an NFL arm and NFL size.
He plays in a gimmick offense and it's always a gamble to project if a QB from an offense like that can make NFL reads.
He wears a wrap on his elbow and that is a scary thing to see on a QB with bad mechanics. I do not know for sure, but he could have tendonitis. It's pretty common for QB's that throw incorrectly for too long.
I see him a a huge project. Like a having to sit for more than 1 year type project.
All that being said, you could do worse than to take a late round flier on the guy. He has a good combination of size/arm/mobility that isn't that common.
When the QB class isn't very good, these are the type of gambles that you have to take. They don't cost an arm and a leg when you make a mistake and pay off big time if you hit the jackpot.
If he is there in the 4th or 5th round, I'd start to think about it. The 3rd round is pushing it for me. There are other guys in the late rounds that are about the same type of gamble and there is no need to reach.
So I'm reading and then I'm saying to my self... Self there is a heck of a lot of talk on this kid Mahomes...let me see the title of this thread and why we got on about him so much...
hehehe...okay my bad its about him.
Question: As I didn't see much on this kid and I don't go by canned reports from these so call scouting write ups.
Where is he suppose to be going in the draft. Are there any reports of us visiting his school and games taking a good look on him.
Eotab he is rated anywhere from 1st round to 4th round depending on who you read. I personally place him as a 3rd to 4th rounder because he will need to be taught and made to sit for a few years while he improves his tech. He has same really good talent but he needs to have some bad habits weeded out. Given an ideal situation he could turn into a top tier QB if he does what he needs to, to improve himself.
0:03 Inaccurate, maybe, but not wildly in my eyes. He had to get it over the underneath coverage and between the two defenders behind. His receiver seemed to get a hand on it.
0:33 It was third down with 7 yards to go, I think he expected the receiver to run the route closer to the marker and he was throwing to a spot.
5:57 You've got to give the receiver a chance, at the same time the receiver has to give him more room to fit it. Our receivers have the same problem with getting squeezed to the sideline.
7:28 Was a throw away after a scramble as he approached the sideline.
9:00 looked like he wasn't on the same page as his receiver, and was possibly a bad read of the outside corner.
9:18 saw the blitz and went to the hot read. Poor throw.
13:06 Looked like his receiver got 2 hands on it in stride to me.
I'm not saying he has great accuracy all the time, but after watching Browns QB play for years I wouldn't call it wildly inaccurate.
It just didn't seem fair as a 1 sentence characterization.
For comparison sake and because Dak Prescott and Patrick Mahomes are similar in build.
These were Dak's weaknesses as listed by nfl.com.
Weaknesses Beat up this year thanks to poor protection. When he wasn't being sacked, he was being hit hard. Not as competitive a rusher in 2015. Sacks and usage in run game might be taking a toll. Increase in short pass attempts from 86 to 208 this year reason for higher completion numbers. Accuracy on intermediate and deep throws dropped sharply. Pocket poise has been compromised. Hyper aware of pressure around him and lacks awareness to slide and find temporary shelter to make throw. Concern over pressure too often trumps ability to get through progressions. Must speed up the pace of his reads. Footwork is a mess. Slight stride onto stiff upper leg with little weight shift. Restricted follow through and too often tries to muscle throws with upper body. Throws to target rather than leading or throwing them open on short/intermediate throws. Too respectful of underneath coverage and must be more willing to challenge the defense. Needs to improve anticipation.
Hyper aware of pressure around him and lacks awareness to slide and find temporary shelter to make throw. Concern over pressure too often trumps ability to get through progressions. Must speed up the pace of his reads. Footwork is a mess.
Restricted follow through and too often tries to muscle throws with upper body. Throws to target rather than leading or throwing them open on short/intermediate throws.
Hyper aware of pressure around him and lacks awareness to slide and find temporary shelter to make throw. Concern over pressure too often trumps ability to get through progressions. Must speed up the pace of his reads. Footwork is a mess.
Restricted follow through and too often tries to muscle throws with upper body. Throws to target rather than leading or throwing them open on short/intermediate throws.
Needs to improve anticipation.
LOL........about as far off as one can get.
I don't know I'd probably still say that about sums him up. He just has the luxury of playing behind a brick wall. I didn't care for Dak because of his reaction to pressure and his lack of ball placement.
Im not saying the OL is the only reason hes successful or that he isn't better than Matt Cassel. Even the best players have faults. In college he had a horrid OL and it caused him to make poor decisions and throw off balance. He also doesnt have consistency on his ball placement and probably never will but improved mechanics will help. That doesnt mean he cant be a competent qb. It's just a good thing for him he went where he did is all I'm saying. His faults are minimized in dallas. It's a great fit for them both.
I like Mahomes a lot and fired up a thread on him when he first declared. I think there's a ton of things to like about him from a raw talent perspective but raw is the operative term.
The "wildly inaccurate" label is a little over the top but the review that Vers posted as a follow up is accurate. He can make your jaw drop with an incredible throw just as easily as he misses the easiest throw known to man.
I think he's got the tools to be successful but he's not a sure thing. I'd be comfortable burning a third on him...maybe a second if there's a real run on QBs but I wouldn't consider him anywhere in the first by a long shot.
Hyper aware of pressure around him and lacks awareness to slide and find temporary shelter to make throw. Concern over pressure too often trumps ability to get through progressions. Must speed up the pace of his reads. Footwork is a mess.
Restricted follow through and too often tries to muscle throws with upper body. Throws to target rather than leading or throwing them open on short/intermediate throws.
Needs to improve anticipation.
LOL........about as far off as one can get.
I get a laugh out of revisiting old scouting reports.
Pick any year and you will find some like the one on Dak.
If we beleive all of what is written, by some of these pre draft scouting reports, it's no small wonder anyone ever succeeds at the next level.
I would have drafted Dak in the third round last year. I thought that would of been our plan B after making the trade with the Eagles, but it wasn't be meant to be.
I like Mahomes a lot and fired up a thread on him when he first declared. I think there's a ton of things to like about him from a raw talent perspective but raw is the operative term.
The "wildly inaccurate" label is a little over the top but the review that Vers posted as a follow up is accurate. He can make your jaw drop with an incredible throw just as easily as he misses the easiest throw known to man.
I think he's got the tools to be successful but he's not a sure thing. I'd be comfortable burning a third on him...maybe a second if there's a real run on QBs but I wouldn't consider him anywhere in the first by a long shot.
When his mechanic's are good he is very accurate. His consistency needs to improve at the next level.
Rodgers was said to have the same mechanical flaws as a draft prospect.
As Hue Jackson would say He's a peace of clay right now.
Mahomes and Kizer are the only realistic targets for me based on where we could potentially get them according to various big boards out there. I'm not enamoured enough with any QB with our top 2 picks, especially when we can potentially snag 2 blue chip impact players at those slots. If we can snag Kizer at 33 (that's based on suppositon Hue likes him) or PM later, then cool. If Trubisky starts falling in round 1 it will get interesting, especially if we have fortified other positions earlier.
Mahomes and Kizer are the only realistic targets for me based on where we could potentially get them according to various big boards out there. I'm not enamoured enough with any QB with our top 2 picks, especially when we can potentially snag 2 blue chip impact players at those slots. If we can snag Kizer at 33 (that's based on suppositon Hue likes him) or PM later, then cool. If Trubisky starts falling in round 1 it will get interesting, especially if we have fortified other positions earlier.
I agree. If Trubisky and Watson are taken in the top 11 selections, then that number 12 pick becomes a top 10 talent wise.
We might also trade down in the 1st round, if we don't like how the top has shaken out and still get another player we might be targeting in that scenario.
I would then use the 33rd selection on Kizer or Mahomes, based on availability. I would not wait until our next selection, because if you can draft (every year) lower rated talent at QB in the first, then how much more so in the 2nd?
I have a feeling that Hue will fall in love with Webb or Dobbs while he is coaching them at the Senior bowl. I predict that we will draft one of those 2 at some point in the draft.
I have a feeling that Hue will fall in love with Webb or Dobbs while he is coaching them at the Senior bowl. I predict that we will draft one of those 2 at some point in the draft.
Rodgers was said to have the same mechanical flaws as a draft prospect.
Will you please expound on that?
Good tape, bad tape = inconstancy with their mechanics.
This was the reason given why Rodgers fell in the draft at that time.
Mahomes has lightning quick feet, but his drops and spacing need some polish, so if someone says that he has bad feet, that is not exactly the truth.
He has one of the quickest releases you will ever see and he doesn't need to step into a pass, because he can get it there on a rope with a flick of the wrist.
Some of his so called poor mechanics are because like Rodgers, Mahomes can get the ball there in a variaty of ways, however un orthodox it might appear. He will use a jump, push, 3/4 sidearm as well as conventional passes.
In the Corp, we would call that thinking on the fly. This is an indicator of proccessing information in a very short time.
I agree w/what you are saying about Mahomes, but I disagree w/you about Rodgers.
Rodgers fell because of two reasons, maybe three:
--He stunk it up in the bowl game while Alex Smith lit it up.
--Many teams were not looking for a qb that year.
--He held the ball high up by his ear even during his drop. It was something we used to have our middle school coaches teach their young qbs to do to help w/mechanics and we kinda did it in high school too, but man, you can't play in the NFL that way. Green Bay had to rework how he held the ball.............which is kinda funny because they actually taught him to not use proper technique. LOL........I am not kidding.
I agree w/what you are saying about Mahomes, but I disagree w/you about Rodgers.
Rodgers fell because of two reasons, maybe three:
--He stunk it up in the bowl game while Alex Smith lit it up.
--Many teams were not looking for a qb that year.
--He held the ball high up by his ear even during his drop. It was something we used to have our middle school coaches teach their young qbs to do to help w/mechanics and we kinda did it in high school too, but man, you can't play in the NFL that way. Green Bay had to rework how he held the ball.............which is kinda funny because they actually taught him to not use proper technique. LOL........I am not kidding.
LOL, I remember that.
Good tape, bad tape, but Mahomes bad tape is his inconsistent foot work. He has tape showing good mechanics with stepping up or sliding in the pocket, proper spacing of feet, direction of front foot, velocity and follow though, which if the read is correct, usually ends up being a reception.
Rodgers was said to have the same mechanical flaws as a draft prospect.
Will you please expound on that?
Good tape, bad tape = inconstancy with their mechanics.
This was the reason given why Rodgers fell in the draft at that time.
Mahomes has lightning quick feet, but his drops and spacing need some polish, so if someone says that he has bad feet, that is not exactly the truth.
He has one of the quickest releases you will ever see and he doesn't need to step into a pass, because he can get it there on a rope with a flick of the wrist.
Some of his so called poor mechanics are because like Rodgers, Mahomes can get the ball there in a variaty of ways, however un orthodox it might appear. He will use a jump, push, 3/4 sidearm as well as conventional passes.
In the Corp, we would call that thinking on the fly. This is an indicator of proccessing information in a very short time.
I would have to strongly disagree. His footwork is flat out terrible and will be the #1 thing he has to fix to make his game more consistent. Yes, he has a cannon for an arm but it can end up all over the place.
The good news is that the things that need fixed are very fixable. The bad news is it will take several seasons most likely to fix them and make him NFL worthy. He is a good 4-5th round pick for a team that can let him sit and get fixed up. If he is taken high and thrown to the wolves he will have a career much like DA.
Really good points above fellas - I don't have the knowledge on this subject but from what I have watched, I like PM as a developmental type. He has the tools, he just needs refinement and coaching. Still not a slam dunk even then but has certain things that cannot be taught.
I'd rather build up the team in a defensively heavy draft and take a flyer on PM or JD or whoever later. If the answer isn't there at QB, reaching for one makes no sense. However, Hue and the organisation need to decide that, not some ne'er do well on a forum
So do you disagree that he has good tape showing he can use proper foot work?
Sure you can find plays where he shows decent footwork but then watch the full game and all kind of crazy stuff goes on with it. Footwork is fixable though. You fix the footwork and I think you fix some of his accuracy problems. A good 60%(estimating) of his bad passes have been directly related to bad footwork. You fix those feet of his and he could be a heck of a good QB.
As a side note don't think I hate this guy. If we don't draft a QB at 1 or 12 and we don't land a trade for Jimmy G. I'd be fine drafting this guy with our second 2nd round pick. He might go in the first round though near the bottom as the rth rated QB in the draft.
So do you disagree that he has good tape showing he can use proper foot work?
Sure you can find plays where he shows decent footwork but then watch the full game and all kind of crazy stuff goes on with it. Footwork is fixable though. You fix the footwork and I think you fix some of his accuracy problems. A good 60%(estimating) of his bad passes have been directly related to bad footwork. You fix those feet of his and he could be a heck of a good QB.
Yeah, that is my point he needs to do the right mechanics (feet) more consistently.
When his feet are right, he can drop a dime. He won't have the same success with sloppy foot wook at the next level as the margin of error is much less.
I found this interview with Mel Kiper, from December 6th (my birth day) of some interest, because it came before the bowl season hyperbole, that precedes every draft season.
• can throw from a variety of platform... has a football gym rate vibe of someone who knows how to throw because of the volume of work put in primary motion though is a 3/4 'sling' type motion ala Jeff George
• can put the ball where he wants and make all the throws, but not an "easy" thrower.
• throws off backfoot more then most prospects I've watched this year, even more then Trubisky
• has a weird torque of his hip when throws that reminds me Colt Brennan, actually a lot of his game reminds me of Colt Brennan....part of it is the air-raid soread...
• lacks consistency with his carriage of the football pre-throw, often dropping it to his knees
• Seems to "muscle up" with the hip torque when he needs velocity...(I'm curious to see him throw side by side with other prospects at the combine)
• uses a lot of functional space when throwing, maybe he doesn't need it but....I have questions about him throwing from a constrained pocket
• has some ability to scramble, evade and extend plays is willing to adlib.....ut not at a 'plus' level athlete
I'd have np with drafting this guy in the 3rd or 4th round. I'm sure Hue could fix him up and them send him to House in the off season.
I like watching this kid play because he has that Kosar feeling that you can never count him out till the game is over.
We could end up with Kessler as our #2 and this guy as our #3. That means whoever is starter will have to work their buts off to keep young and hungry QBs from taking their jobs. That starter will either be RG3 or Jimmy G. most likely.
I'd have np with drafting this guy in the 3rd or 4th round. I'm sure Hue could fix him up and them send him to House in the off season.
I like watching this kid play because he has that Kosar feeling that you can never count him out till the game is over.
We could end up with Kessler as our #2 and this guy as our #3. That means whoever is starter will have to work their buts off to keep young and hungry QBs from taking their jobs. That starter will either be RG3 or Jimmy G. most likely.
If we trade for JG, we wouldn't need to draft a QB. We will need to let that scenario play out fist.
And the record I would rather have the trade, but not with our #1,this year.
JG may not have much starting experience, but he is light years ahead of any rookie QB in this years class.
Major prospect. He reminds me a bit of Chad Pennington. I'm not sure he'll ever get those intangibles to Pennington's level, but maybe.
Nuts
Penn had a noodle arm.
Just remember that experts like Razor, Grimm, and tab have told us that arm strength doesn't matter because it can significantly improved once guys get to the NFL.
No, I'm saying he's not very athletic. Big difference.
I am and here is JG's draft scouting report from nfl.com
PICK ANALYSIS: "This kid's got a quick release, good arm and is very athletic. Tom Brady, at his age, and Ryan Mallett's uncertain status forces this pick. This is an insurance policy for an unknown future. He's an interesting quarterback. He makes every throw. The feet and quick release are what stand out." -- {Mike Mayock}
Strengths Has a very quick trigger and good wrist snap that translates to a smooth throwing motion and clean, compact delivery (no windup). Lightning release quickness. Urgent decision maker. Sells play-action. Athletic enough to slide in the pocket and buy time with his feet while keeping his eyes downfield. Good anticipation -- throws his receivers open. Can change ball speeds and drop it in a bucket. Does not take unnecessary sacks and will dump the ball. Will deliver the ball looking down the barrel of a gun. Tough-minded and poised in the pocket -- can withstand a hit and pop back up. Highly competitive. Smart, respected, vocal team leader. Very durable, experienced, four-year starter. Good football intelligence.
Weaknesses Is a tad undersized with small hands and short arms. Uses a three-quarters delivery that could lead to batted balls. Works heavily out of the shotgun in a spread offense, and footwork could require adjustment to working from under center. Does not always feel pressure in the pocket. Does not rip the deep out or drive the ball with high RPMs. Undershoots and often hangs the deep ball. Makes receivers work for the ball downfield, and deep accuracy could stand to improve. Makes a lot of simple, one-look reads and was not heavily challenged by consistent pressure or complex looks in the Ohio Valley Conference.
Mahomes doesn't have small hands and is probably going to run little faster 40:
Other than those two things I think you will see many more similarities than not.
He's athletic, but not very athletic. The difference between Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. Dude's been making plays with his legs since he took over for Davis Webb. I've watched quite a bit of Mahommes. I like Texas Tech, the air raid is a beautiful thing to watch. But Mahommes got wheels, a level under Manziel and Baker (Another Aggie) tbh. I also wouldn't consider him a runner like the others, nor would he imo. but my boy JG is not in those classes. You know I would never slander JG. I always thought him and Bridgewater were the best in that class. I've been a fan of his for a long time.
He's athletic, but not very athletic. The difference between Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. Dude's been making plays with his legs since he took over for Davis Webb. I've watched quite a bit of Mahommes. I like Texas Tech, the air raid is a beautiful thing to watch. But Mahommes got wheels, a level under Manziel and Baker (Another Aggie) tbh. I also wouldn't consider him a runner like the others, nor would he imo. but my boy JG is not in those classes. You know I would never slander JG. I always thought him and Bridgewater were the best in that class. I've been a fan of his for a long time.
I liked JG coming out, but my guy was Carr, but we couldn't hold our water and traded up for a goof ball.
Major prospect. He reminds me a bit of Chad Pennington. I'm not sure he'll ever get those intangibles to Pennington's level, but maybe.
Nuts
Penn had a noodle arm.
Just remember that experts like Razor, Grimm, and tab have told us that arm strength doesn't matter because it can significantly improved once guys get to the NFL.
There is a difference between saying something doesn't matter and saying something can be improved. Let's try to not put words in people's mouths.
Some players are closer than others to being "finished products" coming out of college. I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of scouting reports that have lines like "needs to improve lower body strength", "needs to improve technique", etc. I've never said Kessler will be great, but I think it is a little early to write the book.
I don't really want to get this too off track though.
As far as Mahomes, I think he is going to look really good in the combine/controlled environment. His film is kind of all over the place, but his highs are really good.
I don't like the Pennington comp. either, two different style of QBs. But no way is he Dak Prescott either. If i had to do a comp. I'd say he's Paxton Lynch without the height. Both can run when they have to, and both need work, a lot of work. Especially footwork.
Major prospect. He reminds me a bit of Chad Pennington. I'm not sure he'll ever get those intangibles to Pennington's level, but maybe.
Nuts
Penn had a noodle arm.
Just remember that experts like Razor, Grimm, and tab have told us that arm strength doesn't matter because it can significantly improved once guys get to the NFL.
There is a difference between saying something doesn't matter and saying something can be improved. Let's try to not put words in people's mouths.
Some players are closer than others to being "finished products" coming out of college. I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of scouting reports that have lines like "needs to improve lower body strength", "needs to improve technique", etc. I've never said Kessler will be great, but I think it is a little early to write the book.
I don't really want to get this too off track though.
As far as Mahomes, I think he is going to look really good in the combine/controlled environment. His film is kind of all over the place, but his highs are really good.
Mahomes reminds me of Stafford without the polish. Same build, athleticism, naturally elite arm talent, gunslinger mentality. Other than playing in a system offense and his horrendous footwork I think we're looking at the best comparison.
Mahomes reminds me of Stafford without the polish. Same build, athleticism, naturally elite arm talent, gunslinger mentality. Other than playing in a system offense and his horrendous footwork I think we're looking at the best comparison.
Thats a pretty fare comparison, other than the horrendous footwook comment, I agee.
Part of his gunslinger character is in part, due to the system, because they asked him to throw it 80 times per game.
I wouldn't mind having a Stafford QB-ing the Browns.
For me a comp needs to be based on major traits the 2 prospects share.
Pat and JG have quick release in common. But Mahomes delivery is neither clean nor compact..(nor consistent for that matter) I don't see the 'urgency' in his decision making...I see a tendency to hold the ball and adlib.
RE: JG scouting report
I find it amusing that they knock him on system and accuracy. Imho those knocks are typical of cursory reports that don't delve deeper. You could literally pan any prospect with that type of generalized critique. They had the same knock against Dak...its lazy scouting imo
I saw a Derek Carr comp the other day. I had to stop and think about it, but I can see that.
Carr was further along in his development, but he came out as redshirt senior and Mahomes is coming out as a true junior. Plus, Mahomes only played two years of QB in high school.
They have similar body types and both have gunslinger mentalities and like to use the entire field.
I get draft comps but would rather discuss the prospect themselves and their skillset.
Comps are in the eye of the beholder, some skillsets are similar some are not. I like comps that highlight a specific trait because overall comps have too many holes.
anyhow....back to Mahomes...I can't gauge his arm strength from his tape ....and his throwing motion is kinda all over the place
For me a comp needs to be based on major traits the 2 prospects share.
Pat and JG have quick release in common. But Mahomes delivery is neither clean nor compact..(nor consistent for that matter) I don't see the 'urgency' in his decision making...I see a tendency to hold the ball and adlib.
RE: JG scouting report
I find it amusing that they knock him on system and accuracy. Imho those knocks are typical of cursory reports that don't delve deeper. You could literally pan any prospect with that type of generalized critique. They had the same knock against Dak...its lazy scouting imo
Who else holds the ball and adlibs? Most of the good ones, like Rodgers, Ben and others who trust in their athletic abilitys to perry the rusher, the key is that they don't lose sight down the field and Mahomes has the same abilities to strug off even a big old DT. Sometimes it bites you, but other times they equal big plays. As a coach you have to balance that natural ability with some restraint, but how much restrants, often times depends on both the said QB's maturity and grasp of the concepts of the system and also the Coach that must coach him.
I get draft comps but would rather discuss the prospect themselves and their skillset.
Comps are in the eye of the beholder, some skillsets are similar some are not. I like comps that highlight a specific trait because overall comps have too many holes.
anyhow....back to Mahomes...I can't gauge his arm strength from his tape ....and his throwing motion is kinda all over the place
I view his arm as above anyone else in the class. Regardless of his footwork or motion just God given power he's alone imo. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that he was a pitcher.
I view his arm as above anyone else in the class. Regardless of his footwork or motion just God given power he's alone imo. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that he was a pitcher.
His arm talent doesn't jump off the screen to me. When Kizer has his feet set, I would say he has the best arm talent in this class. I look forward to seeing him throw at the combine side by side with the other QBs it will help me get a better gauge on it. I think Webb has easy power, where as Mahomes looks like he's 'muscling up'.
I like to use a scale of 1-5 for traits; how would you rate Mahomes on a 1-5 scale on arm strength?
Lets say that Aaron Rodgers/Jay Cutler/Cam Newton are 5s Eli/Brady 4 Kirk Cousins 3 Fitzmagic 2 Chad Pennington is 1
I definitely don't agree that kizer has the best arm but that's fine. I'm pretty amazed when I watch pat with how easily he can just flick it. By your scale he is definitely a 5 but I'd suggest a 10 point scale. Theres a lot of disparity there.
I view his arm as above anyone else in the class. Regardless of his footwork or motion just God given power he's alone imo. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that he was a pitcher.
His arm talent doesn't jump off the screen to me. When Kizer has his feet set, I would say he has the best arm talent in this class. I look forward to seeing him throw at the combine side by side with the other QBs it will help me get a better gauge on it. I think Webb has easy power, where as Mahomes looks like he's 'muscling up'.
I like to use a scale of 1-5 for traits; how would you rate Mahomes on a 1-5 scale on arm strength?
Lets say that Aaron Rodgers/Jay Cutler/Cam Newton are 5s Eli/Brady 4 Kirk Cousins 3 Fitzmagic 2 Chad Pennington is 1
Lets say that
I have to disagree with this.
Marino, Elway and Farve were 5's. Farve probably still is. Flacco is 4.5, probably Big Ben, Luck, Cutler and Stafford, although Cutler has not got any game. Brady and Rodgers are 4's..
Brees came into the league as a 3, but worked his way up to a 4. But Bress, has as good of accuracy as Brady or Rodgers.
Mahomes is a contrast of talent. He has many things you look for as far as size and arm strength. He displays characteristics that you like and don't like. He can put a throw right on the money and miss a throw that is a lay up.
But I like this guy. He is the type that could really thrive with the right coaching. Most of what he does wrong is correctable. What he does right comes from inside. This young man plays to win. In many ways he reminds me of Farve. He is undisciplined in his mechanics and footwork. But super confident in his ability to make plays. Love his competitive drive and leadership quality.
He will need time. Coming from the offense he played under and just where he is in development. It will require time to form his NFL game.
He is a good option for the Browns as a second rounder. He has the potential to be every bit as good as the top three ranked guys in this draft.
I see this as a good QB class but its like the centers, there arent the clear cut grade A guys but there are a lot of B- guys that are going to be starting in this league and have potential to be the bell cow for the next 10 plus years.
Kizer to me, reminds me Tannehill. He has everything you look for but he needs playing time and maturity to grow with your team.
Watson is a little RG3, a little Manziel and it scares me. I see him make to many head scratching throws but again, the star potential is there and its intriguing and he could easily be the first QB off the board.
Trubisky, I see as a Matt Ryan early on in his college career. I never thought Matt would be as good as he is so its good and bad.
Mahomes, i get a bit excited when I watch this kid throw and I would not be opposed to spending our 12 overall on this kid if it falls through with Jimmy. I see a big arm, and I see some anticiaption that you dont normally see from the spread guys.
There is also Webb who I really like as a developmental guy. young Derek Anderson that if you could hone in his skills could be special. If we go for Jimmy, I would still draft Webb in the 3rd to develop.
I gotta say, Mahomes is the guy thats really making an impression the more i watch. I am starting to get that nagging Derek Carr feeling with this kid. I still want Jimmy but I could go Garrett, Mahomes, Budda Baker and Mixon with my first 4 picks and be super thrilled while mamy would be shaking their head lol
I think Watson is much further along then as a passer then Griffin was coming out. Baylor ran a variant of the air raid spread where the reads are very different and the offenses uses a lot of empty 5 wide. Clemson passing game is based on Malzahn offense which has NFL passing concepts and uses a lot shotgun doubles formations.
Mahomes on the field reminds me of plus version of Johnny with some Cutler with the way he throws.
Kizer...doesn't remind me of anyone really I can think of....if he maxes out his tools all the way Culpeper/Rothlisberger
Trubisky reminds me of a Jake Locker/Ryan Tannehill
Just saw this on pro football focus, I hope people like it.
Is Patrick Mahomes a first-round pick? Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes received a second-round grade from the NFL Draft Advisory Board, a fair expectation for the early enrollee. In my latest mock draft, I slotted Mahomes in at No. 25 overall to the Houston Texans, and given the number of QB-needy teams, it would not surprise to see Mahomes in the first-round mix. As we go through the evaluation process, a number of PFF analysts have declared Mahomes not only their favorite quarterback to watch, but potentially the top option. After grading at 80.7 overall in 2015, Mahomes improved to 90.2 in 2016, ranking fourth among Power-5 quarterbacks.
I broke down Mahomes, the rest of the draft class, and many of the free agent and trade options at quarterback in this week’s Big-Time Throwcast with former NFL quarterback Zac Robinson:
Click here for iTunes Click here for Android Mahomes is one of the most intriguing quarterbacks in the class as he has a great feel for the game, making a number of big throws both within and outside of structure. That also gets him into trouble as he’ll force passes and have some ugly plays, but he makes plays with his arm both from a velocity, touch and accuracy standpoint that few quarterbacks can make. The big question for him at the next level is harnessing that ability while allowing him to keep the creativity that makes him a potentially special player. On the podcast, I even compared him to a Hall of Famer from a style standpoint.
Patrick Mahomes hopes to prove at NFL Combine that he's worthy of No. 1; would love to play for Browns' Hue Jackson
by Mary Kay Cabot
CLEVELAND, Ohio - Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes is out to prove a the NFL Combine next week that he's right up there with Mitch Trubisky and Deshaun Watson, and hopes Browns coach Hue Jackson takes notice.
"I want to get drafted as high as possible and I want to get drafted to the right team, and I feel like Hue Jackson has a great thing going there,'' Mahomes told cleveland.com on radio row during Super Bowl week. "I feel like they'll keep it going in the right direction in the near future.''
Mahomes, who said he received a second-round grade from the NFL draft advisory board, is widely regarded as third- or fourth-best quarterback in this draft behind Trubisky, Watson and DeShone Kizer. He hopes to change that perception at the Combine, which begins next week in Indianapolis.
"I feel like I have a lot to offer, and I feel like if I do well at the Combine and at Pro Day, I will be up there with them,'' he said.
Up there enough to be considered for the No. 1 overall pick? The Browns have not only the top pick but also No. 12 overall.
"It's always the dream to get drafted No. 1 overall,'' he said. "I'm just going to keep working hard and hopefully that will show at the Pro Day and Combine.''
Mahomes, the son of the former Major League pitcher of the same name, says what sets him apart is "my work ethic and competitiveness and never giving up on a game. Win lose or draw, I'm going to be fighting until the end and I hope that will really be shown.''
He'll will do everything at the Combine except the bench press. While some scouts have told NFL Network's Mike Mayock that Trubisky will measure closer to 6-1 than his listed 6-3, Mahomes' size (6-3, 215) is not expected to be an issue.
"Possesses NFL body type for work inside and out of the pocket,'' writes Lance Zierlein for Mahomes' draft profile on NFL.com. "Has an undeniable swagger and confidence to his game. Accuracy has improved in each season since his freshman year. Naturally accurate in his every day throws. Comfortable challenging defenders in space. Has arm strength and fearlessness to attack the cover-2 voids down the sideline. Can make deep, field side throws. Cranks up velocity to fit passes into tight windows.''
Mahomes' draft stock has been rising, in part because of his big arm. In fact,he already has five private workouts set up and two teams talking about trading up to get him, sources told cleveland.com.
The knock against him is that he racked up his gaudy college numbers in the Texas Tech "Air Raid" spread offense, but some NFL personnel executives believe his skills will translate to the pros.
In 2016, he threw for 5,052 yards, 41 touchdowns and only 10 interceptions. A dual-threat quarterback, he also rushed for 12 TDs and completed 66 percent of his passes.
One talent evaluator told cleveland.com he doesn't expect Mahomes to get out of the top 15.
I like Mahomes better than Watson, Trubisky, or Kizer. I don't want to paint myself as a QB guru, I only watched 2 games from each guy, but Mahomes impressed me most of the four. His arm strength rivals Kizer's imo, but he's much more accurate. I agree with the poster (edromeo?) who said his game reminded him of Manziel's, but I think with more of an NFL body. Mary Kay's article said he was 6-3, 215, but the site I watched film from says he's 6-3, 229. That looks right to me - he's borderline chubby, but still athletic. This guy plays the game like his hair's on fire, rarely stays in the pocket, throws off his back foot a lot, throws wrist flips to the sideline flat, throws left-handed when trying to escape a sack, throws from different arm angles, like Matt Stafford ... his mechanics are all over the place ... but there's something about him I like ... competitiveness? At 33, he'd be a great pick imo. 12 might be a reach, but who knows?
I like Mahomes better than Watson, Trubisky, or Kizer. I don't want to paint myself as a QB guru, I only watched 2 games from each guy, but Mahomes impressed me most of the four. His arm strength rivals Kizer's imo, but he's much more accurate. I agree with the poster (edromeo?) who said his game reminded him of Manziel's, but I think with more of an NFL body. Mary Kay's article said he was 6-3, 215, but the site I watched film from says he's 6-3, 229. That looks right to me - he's borderline chubby, but still athletic. This guy plays the game like his hair's on fire, rarely stays in the pocket, throws off his back foot a lot, throws wrist flips to the sideline flat, throws left-handed when trying to escape a sack, throws from different arm angles, like Matt Stafford ... his mechanics are all over the place ... but there's something about him I like ... competitiveness? At 33, he'd be a great pick imo. 12 might be a reach, but who knows?
Originally Posted By: HotBYoungTurk
I'd be comfortable drafting him in the 3rd..
I'm warming up to him the more I watch him.
He's probably a two year project just to get him on the field, but he has some Brett Farve in him.
[quote]Patrick Mahomes hopes to prove at NFL Combine that he's worthy of No. 1; would love to play for Browns' Hue Jackson
There we go. I am sure the posters on the boards of the other 31 teams are saying how they need to stay away from this kid because he says he would love to play for us.
And then someone else on those boards will call him lazy, or injury prone, or something else. It becomes gospel to some because "they read it somewhere" and then they speak of trading a 3rd round pick for AJ McCarron.
I enjoyed watching film on PM. I posted some thoughts in that thread. If we can get him with 52, I'd say that risk is worth the reward. I don't feel he can start from Day 1 and sitting him would be the best course of action. However he has a potentially very high ceiling if the flaws can be ironed out. He's an exciting guy to watch.
Personally I only feel Jimmy, Mitch, Pat and Davis Webb are our viable options to address the position but take that in the context that I'm awfully ignorant
Sorry if this has been discussed at length (I'm not scrolling back up) but....any chance Mahomes goes #12? Tons of media/analysts have been talking about him recently as a first rounder which can sometimes mean they're catching up to what teams already think of him.
The draft is dynamic it is very hard to tell how it will lay out.
Mahomes is an interesting QB. However, I see no way he goes 12th.
Coming out of that offense and seeing where he is in development??
Maybe second round. I like the guy.
He will need time and coaching but he has potential. It all depends upon how quickly he learns.
He has a ways to go. Huddle, under center, language, NFL plays, pre-snap reads, post snap (experience, and tons of film study).
He is raw. But I love his competitiveness, and leadership.
He has good size and arm strength. He loses accuracy with poor footwork and throwing mechanics. But that stuff can be corrected with coaching and time.
When he is right he looks good. He just breaks down at times.
Somebody is going to like him. He could be a value pick
WED MAR. 1, 2017 The Draft’s Rorschach Test: What Will Each Team See in Patrick Mahomes? An athletic, cannon-armed playmaker, son of a professional athlete and leader of men? Or a sloppy, reckless developmental prospect from a gimmicky offense? In a QB class full of question marks, Mahomes has emerged as the most fascinating passer in the draft. And every evaluator will see something different
CARLSBAD, Calif. — First it was the video from spring ball: Patrick Mahomes coolly executing a no-look pass. “Doing his best Aaron Rodgers impersonation,” Texas Tech coach Kliff Kingsbury posted on Twitter. A few weeks later, another video surfaced: Mahomes, both knees on the turf, launching a perfect spiral 65 yards. It felt as if everyone around Mahomes was trying to sell the skeptics on his talent.
The QB class of 2017 includes some typical prospects: the Golden Dome legacy (DeShone Kizer), the late-bloomer with the big arm (Mitch Trubisky) and the college superstar whose game has been dissected under a microscope (Deshaun Watson). Most years, teams would overlook the up-and-down gunslinger carrying the Air Raid stigma, brand him as a developmental prospect and relegate him to Day 3. But none of the usual suspects have solidified themselves as a Round 1 pick. And now, with the draft two months away, it seems NFL front offices are opening their mind to Mahomes.
The 21-year-old has the rugged frame (6' 3", 230 pounds), the MLB-caliber arm (literally) and enough charisma to convince teams he can buck a growing list of Air Raid flops. In the past six months, he has risen to become a legitimate first-round option. “I think people will have to wonder if they’re talking themselves into loving him because it’s a generally weak class,” says an AFC personnel man. “But as you watch his tape, you see this kid has traits that are just special. His footwork needs work and there are mechanical issues to sort out, but his potential is exciting.”
Mahomes has the face of a teenager but carries himself like a much older man. He maintains eye contact and talks fast; his Texas drawl is accentuated by unrelenting energy. And as he details his journey, you’re inclined to believe every promise he makes. For his entire life, Mahomes has been precociously assertive. “It’s understandable why people would think I’m just another Air Raid guy, not ready for [the pros],” he says. “Quarterbacks who came from our system haven’t done well in the NFL; that’s a fact. “At the combine, I am going to show NFL teams that I am ready to play Day 1. Everyone knows I can make the throws, but I’m smarter than people think. I know these NFL concepts. I’m not a project.” * * *
The elder Mahomes, a 6' 4" right-hander, would pitch seven more seasons for five different teams in the majors, and bounced around the minor leagues for another five seasons after that. Little Pat followed. When he was 2 ½, the family moved to Puerto Rico for winter ball, bunking with his godfather, LaTroy Hawkins. Hawkins spent 21 seasons in the majors, first as a top prospect in the starting rotation, then as a shutdown reliever. And for one winter, he served as Little Pat’s personal waiter.
Little Pat would wake up at 2 a.m. crying for Hawkins, with a specific request. Troy! Troy! French fries! I want them now!
“He knew there was a Burger King across the street,” Hawkins says. “And he knew it was open 24 hours.” Hawkins usually obliged. Pat ate the fries, then fell back asleep immediately. Their bond remained strong, Hawkins serving as a mentor as Little Pat became a star in his own right.
Mahomes spent the school year in East Texas and summers on the road. He took batting practice with Alex Rodriguez, fielded ground balls with Derek Jeter. “Now that I’m older I realize that stuff wasn’t normal,” he says. When he was 9, Mahomes not only made the 11-and 12-year-old travel team, he was the starting shortstop. When Mahomes Sr. retired from baseball and began coaching youth basketball, his son was the star. But in seventh grade, Mahomes began playing football, invigorating a passion.
He was a high school quarterback, but when he attended his first camp, at the University of Texas, the coaches said he could be a great safety. And so goes the story, now retold lovingly by Pat Sr., of a conversation between father and son during the car ride back from Austin: The elder Mahomes asked his son why he was messing around playing football when his true talent was on the diamond. The younger Mahomes’ fastball was clocked at 95 miles per hour. All 30 MLB teams had sent scouts to see him. In one meeting, an MLB scout told the 17-year-old his base projected earnings in baseball, his worst-case scenario, would be $1.6 million for his career. “My dad played football in high school, he was all-state, but he never really loved it,” Mahomes says. “But for me, football was my love.”
Hawkins wanted Mahomes to make the best decision. He consulted Mike Larson, a veteran MLB scout. “With a kid like that,” Larson said, “baseball is not as big of a deal, it comes naturally. But if he wants to be a professional in football, he will have to sacrifice the next step and focus completely on football. He’s going to need to be entirely invested.”
“Once we told him that,” Hawkins recalled. “He was entirely invested in football.” The Tigers drafted Mahomes in the 37th round of the 2014 draft. Their scouting director called with a message: “We know you’re probably not coming. We just figured we’d give it a shot.” Mahomes said thank you, and that the assumption was correct: He was dead set on moving to Lubbock, where he would play quarterback for Texas Tech.
Mahomes’ collegiate statistics were gaudy. Last year, as a junior, he threw for 5,052 yards, completing 65.7 percent of his passes, with 41 touchdowns and 10 interceptions over 12 games. He averaged 49 pass attempts per game. That includes the backyard football bonanza against Oklahoma in October, when Mahomes set a single-game FBS record with 819 yards of offense, accumulated over 100 plays (88 passes, 12 runs), along with seven touchdowns (five passing, two running). Oklahoma won, 66-59. Even Mahomes didn’t realize the absurdity until midway through the fourth quarter when his freshman-year roommate, wideout Hunter Rittimann, accurately reported: “Dude, you have like 700 passing yards.” Mahomes claims his arm wasn’t sore the next day—“I think pitching conditioned my arm”—though he threw for a season-low 206 yards the following week, in a double-overtime win at TCU.
Here’s the first thing that gives evaluators pause. The Red Raiders run a variation of the Air Raid offense, popularized by former coach Mike Leach (Kliff Kingsbury, Tech’s current coach, played quarterback under Leach). It’s a quarterback-friendly system, pass-happy and full of quick-strike plays, leading to huge (and what many would call inflated) statistical outputs. According to most NFL evaluators, the system doesn’t translate to the pros because it’s so heavy on predetermined reads.
This is met with defensiveness from some. As Leach told me in October: “I think the knock on the Air Raid is just a cop out. If a guy who played in that system falls short, people use this as an excuse to their own convenience, saying what we’re doing is a trick or something different or whatever.” Adds the AFC personnel man: “We’ve scouted enough guys from those systems to know what you’re looking for is traits and a capacity to learn. It’s hard to generalize why it sometimes doesn’t work out. It’s an inexact science. But there is a steep curve of what they’re asked to do for us versus what their responsibilities were in college.”
Indeed, NFL evaluators concede that the volume of passes isn’t the problem, but rather other stylistic differences that don’t translate to the NFL, specifically commanding a huddle and taking snaps from under center. And while Mahomes will need to learn to work the huddle—he previously used signals to relay plays—he is quick to make this point: “Kingsbury made us take snaps under center every single day at practice, just so we were comfortable there. We didn’t want to have any miscues anytime we did it. We ran some NFL stuff. I didn’t do any three- or five- or seven-step drops from under center, but we did some play-actions, we did some handoffs, some bootlegs.”
An NFL scout who studied Mahomes’ tape said that while he was under center some, it was sparingly and usually in short-yardage situations. Mike Sheppard, the longtime NFL assistant who is tutoring Mahomes, is working on his five- and seven-step drops and rhythm throws, separating the drop from the throw. Mahomes says he had a little bit of an extra step in his left foot because of being used to the shotgun, a habit he fixed in about two weeks.
Another thing Mahomes will stress in Indianapolis: He had more responsibilities in Lubbock than you think. Kingsbury allowed Mahomes to begin checking plays at line of scrimmage during the quarterback’s sophomore year, and by last year Mahomes could check any play he wanted. In fact, Kingsbury’s sideline signals were an exception—he used them only when he wanted Mahomes to keep his play no matter what. A scout said that is unusual for a college spread quarterback. It was a virtue of Mahomes starting 28 games.
2nd - Mahomes is wildly inaccurate - AT TIMES. I capitalize at times because it is important. No doubt, he makes some amazing throws. But other times he makes a throw and you're left shaking your head wondering what the heck.
I submit the WVU game for your review. But again, he is wildly inaccurate AT TIMES.
I refer you to the WVU game - the link is below. Look at the throws at time mark:
0:03 0:33 5:57 7:28 9:00 9:18 13:06 - arguable if wildly inaccurate or just inaccurate
This is a partial quote of a post I made way back on page 2 of this thread. I stand by my evaluation of this game but feel I need to add an addendum. I was listening to a podcast about Qb prospects yesterday (sorry I don't have a link) They pointed out that Mahomes played the WV game with an injured throwing shoulder I don't know how much that affected things but I feel I needed to add that tidbit of information.
I am resigned to the fact that we will look to the draft to address the QB position. I hold out hope on Jimmy. Other options (Taylor, Watson, Trub, Kizer) do not seem appealing to me.
If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to draft a QB in round 1, it would be Trub. But I think a 2nd on Mahomes would be easier to accept than a 1st on Trub (or anyone else).
I can't remember what thread, but crfs posted a tweet from Dane Brugler listing the pass velocities from the combine. Mahomes was the highest with 60 mph. I don't know if that's the record, but this site showed 60 as the highest recorded from '08-'16, attained by Bryan Bennett and Logan Thomas.
Honestly, I've never heard of Bennett, and Thomas was only drafted because of his size and arm, I believe he's out of football. I never said anything about them being good QB's I was only answering the question for predator when you asked his source; Dane Brugler via cfrs.
Mahomes clearly has the best arm of the group. It's honestly Rodgers-esque. The fact that he doesn't set his feet often and can still throw like that is scary from a developmental point of view. Kid has the best arm talent in the draft.
Yes he does, but he needs a ton of work with his mechanics and footwork. I like him if we got him in the 3rd but folks are saying he will go in the first.....wouldn't touch him there.
The only guy that could make since in round 1 is Trubisky and the lack of experience is a concern there as well.
I hate piling on the guy, but I truly think he sucks. His accuracy is putrid.
I'm watching him at the Combine and hoping he changes my mind. What's he do.............he threw a bunch of outs to the inside of the WR. That is w/out pressure or a defense. Are you serious? His accuracy issues are a tremendous concern.
The only thing I'll say in his defense is when I seen him live most of his problems with accuracy were mechanical and not anticipation related. Mechanical can potentially/eventually be fixed maybe...lol.
Guys like Kizer who have no anticipation can't be fixed imo. Having said all that I think he's a developmental guy who SHOULD be drafted in the middle rounds and developed. Unfortunately somebody is going to over draft him about two rounds to soon and ruin him.
To me Webb is a middle guy who has every bit of potential as Mahomes but isn't getting the buzz right now
However, noting Watson's number at 49 is a concern. Not a deal ender but a concern.
Mahomes: I totally understand his issues. The offense he played under. His lack of consistent mechanics, and footwork. His questionable decision making. I get all his negatives.
However, this guy has arm talent. He plays to the edge. Davis Webb transferred from Texas Tech because he knew he could not compete against Mahomes.
If things fall through with Garoppolo and someone drafts the quarterback they want before 12. Mahomes is good fallback for the second round.
There were multiple people who jumped on me for saying he had a Stafford level natural arm even going as far as to say his arm was average.
And on your later post I understand why you don't care for him. We value a few things differently and I in no way champion for the guy. He's just the only one I think has the potential to be a franchise level guy out of this class, albeit a small shot. His natural feel for putting the ball exactly where it needs to be especially considering his lack of consistent mechanics is very huge for me. I know why you say he isn't accurate but I see a guy who is naturally accurate and anticipates better than many college qbs I've ever seen. like many big arm qbs he makes a lot of throws that drop a jaw both good and bad but he shows me signs. Either way I'd still go Jimmy but mahomes is my top draftee.
...There were multiple people who jumped on me for saying he had a Stafford level natural arm even going as far as to say his arm was average.
Not sure that you include me in the group that jumped all over you...but I still don't see the Stafford level arm talent. Good arm sure, occasionally pulls off some wow throws but I still think Webb and Kizer have the best pure arm strength in this class. And I would put his arm on par w/ Trubs and just ahead of Watson. A guy that I think has a really big arm is the Pipkin kid.
But you are right about the velocity numbers from the combine. I haven't been able to find out but do you know how the velocity is measured at the combine?
What did you think of PMs throwing session at the combine?
I honestly dont remember who all it was. Doesnt really matter im just saying. I haven't gotten to watch much lately. Admittedly I cooled on him quit a bit when I saw his hand measurements. Been work 80hrs a week lately and just get on here during breaks for info. Not enough down time for tape study.
I don't think you're taking mechanics into consideration. Why does Webb and Kizer have a better arm than him? Mahomes makes all those throws while looking like a short stop. He doesn't plant his feet, he just chucks it. Dude clearly has the best arm in the draft*. The question is, how long will it take to develop him? If someone could stash him away for three years or maybe even 2, they might have themselves a mighty fine QB.
Yeah I hear you the combine is too long to sit through the whole thing but youtube has some portions distilled:
He throws with the 1st group ~5:00-9:00 ish
btw-I'm not saying Mahomes is a 'bad' prospect.
He def could become something in the NFL, they all could.
Mahomes has a lot of uncertainty to go along with his physical skillset. I do like his natural 'feel' and his adlib ability. But in the NFL he's gonna have to temper that with more discipline. In his throwing mechanics, in his footwork, in his dropbacks and that's on top of making the transition from air-raid spread to pro-style. I'm not saying that he can/can't do it. I have no idea and no vantage point to gauge his football IQ or work ethic etc. When I rank/evaluate QBs I stick to rubric of traits and as much as I like his adlib and gunslinger mentality there are other areas that he objectively is behind some of the other QBs.
There were multiple people who jumped on me for saying he had a Stafford level natural arm even going as far as to say his arm was average.
And on your later post I understand why you don't care for him. We value a few things differently and I in no way champion for the guy. He's just the only one I think has the potential to be a franchise level guy out of this class, albeit a small shot. His natural feel for putting the ball exactly where it needs to be especially considering his lack of consistent mechanics is very huge for me. I know why you say he isn't accurate but I see a guy who is naturally accurate and anticipates better than many college qbs I've ever seen. like many big arm qbs he makes a lot of throws that drop a jaw both good and bad but he shows me signs. Either way I'd still go Jimmy but mahomes is my top draftee.
Well, they're whacked if they told you he doesn't have a good arm. I don't think that is disputable.
We just totally disagree on how good he is. And frankly, I don't care for his attitude and how he plays the game.
I better clarify that last part. He's fun to watch, but if I am drafting a qb for "my team," I don't want fun. I want a guy who is going to do what it takes to win games.
I don't think Mahmoes is that guy.
As far as the accuracy thing.......let's just say that we are world's apart. I am not bashing you. It's just opinion and I respect your opinions because I know you actually watch guys and don't make crap up, but dawg.........you simply can't throw out routes to the inside of the receiver. That is perhaps the biggest no-no in the history of mankind. LOL
I think we should wait till his pro day before writing him off for bad timing on out routes at the combine. I was under the impression the QBs are told to hit the top of their drop and immediately throw it to a spot.
He does have a lot of inconsistency, but his highs are great. He still has a lot of rough edges, but I think he's high quality material to sculpt. I like the Favre comp. I pulled up some Southern Miss highlights of Brett's and I could see the similarities.
I also strangely like the fact that he is used to being on the less talented team most game days. He's dealt with adversity, so he shouldn't be in shock if he ends up here. Unlike Watson, Trubisky, and to an extent Kizer, he's used to being an underdog.
I kind of get your argument about his accuracy, and I probably wouldn't want Mahomes for a timing based west coast system, but if we're going to run the ball, take play action deep shots, and throw screens I like him a lot. I'll admit I am partial to gunslingers and the deep ball.
Oh ok i was afraid I'd missed something. You are entitled to your opinion. Like I've said he is my guy this draft but that doesn't mean I have a top 10 grade or anything on him crazy like that. More so speaks to how much I dislike the class as a whole
Mahomes is receiving many of the same knocks as did Brett Farve. Farve fell to the top of round two, but we know in retrospect that he should have went 1st overall that year.
I'm not ready to put Mahomes in that high of praise, but he is uncanny in that when he is off platform, he is always looking to pass first and his accuracy off platform at this point, is better than when on platform.
1. Watson's velocity in film looks a lot better than 49??? Do you think one of the camps was having him change his Delivery and that caused the test result?
2. After Tribusky the only later round QBs I wish for us to invest in is Webb or Peterman.
If Watson's test is not who he is I wouldn't mind him either.
I still say someone jerked around with his deliver. The pic has the shoulders way too squared up as velocity comes not from "ARM" strength but shoulder turn as well as hip turn. There is no shoulder turn in that pic what soever.
I can't answer that...I don't know why his velocity was so slow.
But as mid-round guys I like both players you mentioned there. I could see Webb moving up draft boards though, not be cause of the velocity he threw just cause he seems to be improving his stock. Footwork looks better, good showing at the senior bowl, good combine, etc....He may not be available in the mid-rounds....It might take a second to get him.
I read on a random message board (so I'm not positive on the accuracy) that they are measured by radar gun, but the reading only counts if they hit a target. Watson can probably throw faster than 49, but it seems he might lose accuracy when throwing harder.
I can't answer that...I don't know why his velocity was so slow.
Other then being measured by radar I'm still curious how they measure it? Is is it measured during the drills? Because if they are measured during the drills then velocity would be less important then placement. Or are they asked to line-up and throw it as hard as they can at some target? *
Over the years looking at the combine numbers I never know what to think of their velocity because some of them don't match the tape. *shrugs* Maybe I'm wrong but I think if a team really wanted to know QBs velocity they can get some smart guys (sports science types) and measure functional velocity based on film.
Quote:
But as mid-round guys I like both players you mentioned there. I could see Webb moving up draft boards though, not be cause of the velocity he threw just cause he seems to be improving his stock. Footwork looks better, good showing at the senior bowl, good combine, etc....He may not be available in the mid-rounds....It might take a second to get him.
I've been a fan of Webb for awhile. He doesn't give much in terms of adlib or evasion. But, he's got natural arm talent. Can functional get rid of the ball quick and he's got good size (however much that does/doesn't mean to people).
Peterman has more athletic ability then he gets credit for and he's a more traditional rhythm drop back passer type. You can watch his tape and see him on 3-5-7 steps drops. His arm isn't anything special on tape though.
Mahomes is receiving many of the same knocks as did Brett Farve.
There is Farvesque quality to Mahomes when he adlibs, if we're saying that is similar then we should also mention that Favre played under center in a 'pro-style' offense as opposed to a pure shotgun air-raid spread. So unlike Mahomes you could see Favre actually executing rhythm dropback passing 3-5-7 step drop and playaction in addition to the adlib stuff.
I'd love to draft pat in the late second to early third round range. Tech can always be improved. I like his brash confidence and arm talent. I think he is a guy that Hue would enjoy tinkering with.
You never know about quarterbacks at the early stage. If the Browns were smart they would draft this kid as a developmental prospect no matter what else they do at the position.
Mahomes has real potential. His issues are correctable with good coaching. What he brings to the table is uncoachable.
Agreed. PM sounds like the type of guy that with time, patience and a good mentor he could be a better than decent QB. With young guys you never know. Even Johnny Unitas and Len Dawson, to name a couple, got cut.
Watching him play, I come away with the impression that he's really gonna have to rein it in to be a successful NFL QB. If he can do that he could be good,if not he could end up a career backup or worse, end up in the Canada league.
It's easier reining it in than forcing an aggressive mindset where it isn't natural. I think PM, in the right situation and with patience, becomes a good NFL QB.
Watching him play, I come away with the impression that he's really gonna have to rein it in to be a successful NFL QB. If he can do that he could be good,if not he could end up a career backup or worse, end up in the Canada league.
That's the kicker with him. He's not ready to start right away at all, and he's going to push a coach's patience with the mechanics and the bravado stuff you alluded to. I think he's got the most arm talent in the draft, but he's not worth a 1st round pick because of the issues mentioned........boom or bust guy.
Early on when watching him I was reminded of Farve. Usually I never compare players but he is a guy that plays the same way.
In today's environment the players get the best of coaching. They are like investments.
However, sometimes the coaching tries to make all the quarterbacks fit into a pre-set quarterback mold. The coaching can become very robotic.
Mahomes is the type of guy that needs coaching but it should be used to shape and not mold.
We have picks. We don't have players. Kessler and Hogan are very limited. I would rather take a swing at Trubisky and Mahomes if Garoppolo falls through.
Everybody freaked when Washington drafted Cousins in the same draft as Griffin. Funny how that turned out.
its funny because trub is the best rated QB in the draft but he couldn't beat out old pat here and didn't want to compete against him. I find that interesting.
Don't like bringing up Manziel but my take is Mahomes is a better prospect than Manziel was coming out.
I know he is rough around the edges and is a bit undisciplined but the talent is there. He plays fast and loose but he has good instincts. He see the field well and has the arm.
Once he gets under a pro structure I think he will come around.
its funny because trub is the best rated QB in the draft but he couldn't beat out old pat here and didn't want to compete against him. I find that interesting.
I tend to be all over the place with my qb preferences. One year I'm all about a Bridgewater next it's mahomes. I guess for me it's all about Blue chip traits. That's why I don't like trub. He does everything well enough but not great. I find it hard to believe he'll be a threat at greater competition level. Same with Watson and kizer. I just don't see blue chip skills. Pat I do. While he has his clear downfalls he's the only one who could potentially make a defense work imo.
I still think Mitch will be the best QB of the bunch but I'm leaning toward Mahomes as being the second best. I think the Browns taking him at 12 is a very real thing.
Wow that would be high for PM. I like him as well, but he will require a ton of work. I would be fine taking him at 33 but anything before that is more than I hope the Browns would do.
He is the 2nd best QB in this draft imo behind MT, but I don't know if that makes him a first round pick.
We'll find out. I just think teams like him more than they're letting on and Cleveland could be one of them. I don't get into the reach/value pick debate--most people that do end up being wrong. I've seen it all too often on this board. If the guy ends up being good, it was a good pick. If not, he's a bust. If a team likes him enough at #33 to take him, just do it at #12 and secure him as your franchise QB...if you think that's what he is. If it's that close, I wouldn't be cute about it, especially at QB and in a round where trades happen quite a bit now in the post CBA world. I guess there is an exception if he's just not that good, but I don't see him lasting very long in the draft.
I like Mahomes and he might have the largest ceiling of the QBs here. If he is perceived by teams to be the second best QB in the draft, he'll get taken in round one.
I view him as a 3rd round prospect, and was thus paying the "QB tax" and placing him a round early. I wouldn't draft a guy two rounds early though because I needed a QB.
You are right though and one of these teams could view him as a 1st/2nd round prospect and take him in round 1........I just don't see him as that and hope the Browns don't.
I am not an expert on the guy. There are just some things that I don't like.
I think his accuracy is a huge issue and I would never want to draft a qb w/that issue w/in the first 3 rounds of the draft. I also get the feeling that he plays the game his way, rather than the coaches way, and I question if he'll come around w/coaching.
He's too risky to draft high in my opinion. But, I've been wrong before and will be again...
I still think Mitch will be the best QB of the bunch but I'm leaning toward Mahomes as being the second best. I think the Browns taking him at 12 is a very real thing.
I have been watching as much as I can on these QBs and the more I watch Mahomes, the more I love the top end with him. The kid has an Elite arm right up there with the likes of Carr and Farve. He is an NFL body. 6-4, 230 range. He is a big kid and he plays big. He has very good mobility and incredible pocket awarness. Best mid and deep accuracy of any of the Qbs. He is perfect for Hue's offense in that he wants to go deep. Thats his goal is the big play and he puts it up and lets his receivers run to the ball.
Late first, I move up and take Mahomes. Get me ahead of Houston, and I draft Mahomes and let him develop for a year or two if need be.
I have been debating hard on it for awhile but I am finally ready to move Mahomes ahead of Trubisky. I like Trubisky and have pretty much an identical grade to that of Jimmy G coming out. Hell I may even take Webb over Trubisky before its over lol.
I believe you need the right QB for the right system and I want the big arm in Hue's system. I want size and mobility in this system and I get that with Pat.
However, if you like Mahomes that much, why even risk having to move up to draft him? Just take him at 12 and focus on 33. I guess that would be my approach if I thought he was the best QB in the draft which is where I'm guessing you have him right now.
He is an NFL body. 6-4, 230 range. He is a big kid and he plays big. He has very good mobility and incredible pocket awarness.
Mahomet measured 6' 2" and 225lbs at the combine. About the same as both Watson Trubisky.
North Carolina’s Mitch Trubisky hit the 6-2 mark and Clemson’s Deshaun Watson weighed in at a solid 222 pounds. As expected, Notre Dame’s DeShone Kizer measured in the biggest at 6-4 1/4 and 233 pounds with 9 7/8-inch hands. Watson officially came in at 6-2 1/2 with 9 3/4-inch hands. Trubisky (222 pounds) actually came in an eighth of an inch taller than Texas Tech’s Patrick Mahomes (6-2, 225) and with slightly larger hands (9 1/2 inches) than the Red Raiders gunslinger (9 1/4).
If they can not land JG then I think they should cover their bases.
By that I mean look at more than one guy. Let's just say they like Trubisky. At the same time they may not want to go higher than 12 with him. If he is there great. They take him. They have a ton of picks. Why not take Mahomes in the second(the later pick) or third round. I am not saying don't go BPA. But go BPA if he is the BPA.
The Browns have to get their quarterback. Maybe Trubisky ends up stinking. Why not have two chances instead of one. Better odds.
What if someone takes Trubisky before 12?
I don't see Kizer or Watson as being far ahead of Mahomes. All have their pros and cons. Why not take BPA at 12 and look at Mahomes in the second round?
The truth for me is: Here we are with the first pick in the draft and the 12th. And I'll be damned but I don't see a quarterback that I really like worthy of either pick in the first round.
Watson, Trubisky, Kizer, and Mahomes I don't see much separation. Watson has the resume but there are questions about int's, ball placement, run first etc.
Trubisky has potential and played pretty good in 13 games. Can he be viewed as no risk with such limited experience? It is not like in 13 games he was so dominant that he stands alone as the best quarterback.
Kizer makes NFL throws. He has all physical tools you could want. Look at his completion percentage? He has not shown much consistency.
Mahomes comes from a wide open offense. Like many before him who have arm strength he tries to force the ball sometimes. I would rather work on teaching him that check down is sometimes good. Than having a guy like Kessler who is fearful about pushing the ball.
There is no question in my mind that Garoppolo is the guy. But if the Browns can not make that happen I hope they have backup plans with more than one option.
However, if you like Mahomes that much, why even risk having to move up to draft him? Just take him at 12 and focus on 33. I guess that would be my approach if I thought he was the best QB in the draft which is where I'm guessing you have him right now.
I cant pass on a probowler for a project no matter how much i like the project. I have been saying for months that NONE of these QBs were worth a top 15 pick and that just hasnt changed and its become reinforced with how well this class is being viewed.
The only reason I want to trade up into the first is because of the 5th year option on rookie 1st rounders. Hell it may take 2 years before one of these QBs are ready and it would be nice to have that extra year on them.
I believe we can have our cake and eat it too.
We get Garrett and then just take the top guy on our board regardless of position at 12 so if you do miss on the QB, you got 2 studs and you go back in next year and shoot for the QB again.
He is an NFL body. 6-4, 230 range. He is a big kid and he plays big. He has very good mobility and incredible pocket awarness.
Mahomet measured 6' 2" and 225lbs at the combine. About the same as both Watson Trubisky.
North Carolina’s Mitch Trubisky hit the 6-2 mark and Clemson’s Deshaun Watson weighed in at a solid 222 pounds. As expected, Notre Dame’s DeShone Kizer measured in the biggest at 6-4 1/4 and 233 pounds with 9 7/8-inch hands. Watson officially came in at 6-2 1/2 with 9 3/4-inch hands. Trubisky (222 pounds) actually came in an eighth of an inch taller than Texas Tech’s Patrick Mahomes (6-2, 225) and with slightly larger hands (9 1/2 inches) than the Red Raiders gunslinger (9 1/4).
He is an NFL body. 6-4, 230 range. He is a big kid and he plays big. He has very good mobility and incredible pocket awarness.
Mahomet measured 6' 2" and 225lbs at the combine. About the same as both Watson Trubisky.
North Carolina’s Mitch Trubisky hit the 6-2 mark and Clemson’s Deshaun Watson weighed in at a solid 222 pounds. As expected, Notre Dame’s DeShone Kizer measured in the biggest at 6-4 1/4 and 233 pounds with 9 7/8-inch hands. Watson officially came in at 6-2 1/2 with 9 3/4-inch hands. Trubisky (222 pounds) actually came in an eighth of an inch taller than Texas Tech’s Patrick Mahomes (6-2, 225) and with slightly larger hands (9 1/2 inches) than the Red Raiders gunslinger (9 1/4).
The deep balls Mahomes throws at 1:38 and again at 2:04 look like he just flips them out there, and are things of beauty. There's another at 3:52 and two frozen rope at 4:22 and 5:39 that are sweet too. Really nice deep ball accuracy on all those passes. The one at 8:44 probably should have been caught. He can obviously make all the throws. My biggest knock (if you can call it that) is that his accuracy seems to diminish distinctly under pressure. I love the way he sees the field though while on the move. I'd happily take him in this draft no matter what, and will be bummed if we come away without him. Given our situation, I'd probably draft him even if we take Trubisky.
Hard pass on Mahomes in the first round at least. He is the kind of guy who will do well to carve out a 10 year career as a backup. He just has a lot of things to work on. He is a two sometimes three hitch and throw guy, not gonna work at the next level.
The deep balls Mahomes throws at 1:38 and again at 2:04 look like he just flips them out there, and are things of beauty. There's another at 3:52 and two frozen rope at 4:22 and 5:39 that are sweet too. Really nice deep ball accuracy on all those passes. The one at 8:44 probably should have been caught. He can obviously make all the throws.
The throw at 1:30 is Pat Mahomes in a nut shell. He throws off his back foot (bad) and delivers a 30-40 yard bomb on the money...lol. He needs work no doubt, but the talent is there to be sure.
Chargers held a private workout with Texas Tech QB Pat Mahomes. They also reportedly worked out Tennessee's Josh Dobbs. This does not mean the Chargers are drafting Mahomes or Dobbs, but it does show they are doing real background work on top quarterbacks. Philip Rivers is signed through 2019, but he will turn 36 in December. It is time for the Chargers to at least consider their future at the position, and it will not be surprising if they add a developmental quarterback in this year's draft.
I would not mind drafting Mahomes. I have no idea when cringe afterwords. I know one thing for sure I hate to coach him!
You will never fully remove the unorthodox techniques. If you could harness it, I think you have something special. Main question here is can this kid be coached and does he love football.
I see LAC held a private workout. Two teams I think have the right setup is Chargers and Cardinals.
I would not mind drafting Mahomes. I have no idea when cringe afterwords. I know one thing for sure I hate to coach him!
You will never fully remove the unorthodox techniques. If you could harness it, I think you have something special. Main question here is can this kid be coached and does he love football.
I see LAC held a private workout. Two teams I think have the right setup is Chargers and Cardinals.
He addressed the love of football question during Gruden's QB camp. Whether you buy it or not is up to you. His answers seem more natural than some of the other guys to me.
Grimm, if what Patrick says is true and if Cleveland drafts him, I think him and Kessler make for an interesting QB room.
Physical talent Mahomes shows is impressive. Given the right environment he could be successful. If he comes to Cleveland, Haslam must show patience. Otherwise, this kid will suffer RG iii's fate. He'll never make it changing systems every year.
Such a wide assessment of him as a QB prospect...there are analyst who say we are going to draft him at 12 and some that have him in the 2nd/3rd round.
I don't know what to make of him...haven't watched enough film on him to evaluate him myself. But Accuracy is probably the most important virtue and the negatives I've read are about his accuracy.
We'll see - unlike Charlie Casserty advice that we should get our QB next year.
That is advice that would get people FIRED...you see someone you like you draft them now. UNLESS you got that Franchise QB already. There is no tomorrow...that's like your teenage kids saying YEAH I'll Do that Tomorrow when you ask them to do a task...odds are that tomorrow never comes.
I am about to the point that I have him rated over Trubs. They are definitely 1/2, but Mahomes upside is just through the roof.........so much talent, but so very raw/undisciplined it gives you pause.
I've seen a ton of media types advocating us taking him at 12 (and I wouldn't do that), but if we want him I don't think it's a lock he's there at 33. It will be interesting to see where he goes he supposedly is meeting with the Cardinals today as well so that's a possibility.
I really like Pat the more I watch him play. He really reminds me of a Brett Favre type of player. He can throw those long bombs on a rope too which is very rare talent to have. When it comes to potential I think he has the most potential of anyone in this draft. I would trade up into the bottom of the first to get him too.
Another guy I would love to see us draft after round 3 is Josh Dobbs. Josh is super smart and is really good at reading a defense.
If we went into the season with Cody, Pat, and Josh as our QBs I have to admit I'd get a little excited about the long term benefits. I'd love to see Cody play well this year and have pat and josh sit the bench for a few years.
I don't think he makes it to round 2 because there is a lot of buzz tying him to Houston. Plus, teams like the 5th year option for QBs.
Also, there was that article talking about a bunch of teams having Watson and Trubisky as the top QB, but it also mentioned there were a couple that had Mahomes. It only takes one team falling in love with the guy.
I don't think he makes it to round 2 because there is a lot of buzz tying him to Houston. Plus, teams like the 5th year option for QBs.
Also, there was that article talking about a bunch of teams having Watson and Trubisky as the top QB, but it also mentioned there were a couple that had Mahomes. It only takes one team falling in love with the guy.
The more I watch the tape, accompanied by all the buzz around him shooting up the draft boards I think you might be right. Heck, I won't be shocked if he is the first QB selected at this point.....him, Trubs, and Webb are all grouped fairly close to me (late 1st/early 2nd grade), and the rest are junk.
I'm not full fledge pimping him yet, but I'm teetering.....ton of talent.
Bridgewater had the arm it was his small hands and slight frame........he never failed a velocity test that pretty much has universally proven to be a death nail to those who don't pass it.
Teams were stupid to pass on Teddy, but Watson is a late round project in the mold of Ken Dorsey......stay away
This year's draft class reminds me of the one w/Gabbert, Locker, and Ponder or even a bit like the one w/EJ Manuel and Gino Smith.
Guys are being way overvalued because the rest of the group is so poor.
I say----buyer beware!
Mitch has a much different skill set than any of the BUMS u mentioned ... and i thought all of the guys u mentioned were BUMS before they came out ... even Watson has a much better shot than the bums in those classes ...
U rail on guys cause they say beware of JG cause of the failures of all the other NE back ups once they leave NE ... and i agree with U ..... but now your saying the buyer needs to beware of Mitch cause of PAST SIMILIAR DRAFT PROJECTIONS of the QB's in it ...
There's way too much (defensive) talent in this draft to pick a QB you hope can start for you in a couple years.
Especially if we're talking in the 1st or 2nd round.
Maybe. I've been seeing in a lot of user mocks that with our first 4 picks, at least one of them is on a luxury position (WR, RB, TE, DT). I don't see why a QB should be excluded from that choice. Especially if we ended up trading up 1 pick. We'd then have #1, #12, #32, #57 in the draft. That's more than enough picks to help our defense.
Also funny that people who cannot grasp a lot of science don't understand the basics of analytics. Only someone who cannot understand how front offices work in today's NFL world would consider this "Outside the box".
I was trying to find a play from that game that stood out and best displayed some of the perception/opinion on Mahomes.
I think the play below is a good example of his 'plus' arm talent:
~28s mark he rips this throw up the sideline on a go/fade route
Here's one of the plays that CalDawg mentioned from the ~539 mark
I hate using only a few plays to illustrate a point, because any of the plays from the previous list imho warrant some type of discussion but...
On these plays you can see the arm talent that everyone talks about. You can also see the 5 wide air-raid spread concept offense. One thing that stood out to me is the amount functional space he has to make these throws, for me that is one of the factors that effects the evaluation of air-raid QBs like Mahomes and Webb (another QB I like btw). Imo throwing 'from the pocket' is easier to evaluate with the non-air raid offenses because those QB are in a more traditional sized pocket. Also, a note on play 539s. The WR is schemed open cleanly and Mahomes does put good velocity on the ball but the pass itself is actually behind the WR who makes a nice adjustment on it.
~10s mark is an example of one of his 'wild' plays
On this play he's facing a 3 man rush, and moves from a perfectly good pocket and forces a throw into coverage.
Mahomes, like any prospect, has his good plays and bad. He does flash arm talent. He does have some gym-rat Jim McMahon/Manziel and Favre to his game. He can adlib, and to me eye he's the QB prospect quickest to bail on the play and start adlibbing. Imo he's the rawest of the prospects in terms of executing a rhythm drop back passing game with consistency and discipline.
To be fare, all this year are raw at dropping back from under center.
Maybe so but what you are saying above is very different from the point I was making.
Mahomes does not display much discipline nor consistency in executing his college offense. He is quick to improvise and flee a clean pocket and doing that doesn't give the called play a chance.
When he throws he's often off balance or goofy footed and changes his throwing angle unnecessarily.
On top of that he comes from an air-raid spread where very few of the formations and concepts transfer to the NFL.
That's what a mean when I say he's the rawest prospect next to Pipkin (who I like).
The Cardinals held a private workout with Texas Tech QB Pat Mahomes on Thursday. With Carson Palmer in the twilight of his career, it's time for the Cardinals to start looking for his successor. Coach Bruce Arians said there are "five or six really good arms in this draft" and Mahomes could be one of them. Mahomes has also worked out for the Chargers, who are in a similar position with Philip Rivers nearing the end of his career. Even if it's not Mahomes, the Cardinals will certainly address quarterback in next month's draft.
Related: Cardinals Source: Arizona Republic Mar 26 - 9:27 AM
I believe a lot of teams are gonna be looking to that early 2nd/ late first area for their QB. Good news if there is a QB run in the first we probably get a tier 2 player in the 2nd round. That's huge for the build.
Brown's I think go Webb if they fail to get Jimmy. I go mahomes latefirst but I believe we go for Webb.
The Cardinals held a private workout with Texas Tech QB Pat Mahomes on Thursday. With Carson Palmer in the twilight of his career, it's time for the Cardinals to start looking for his successor. Coach Bruce Arians said there are "five or six really good arms in this draft" and Mahomes could be one of them. Mahomes has also worked out for the Chargers, who are in a similar position with Philip Rivers nearing the end of his career. Even if it's not Mahomes, the Cardinals will certainly address quarterback in next month's draft.
Related: Cardinals Source: Arizona Republic Mar 26 - 9:27 AM
I could see either taking Mahomes with their respective 1st round picks.
In the same respect I could see the Saints, Giants, KC and Steelers reload with their first round picks.
Heck, I hope every single "top-rated" [sic] Qb is drafted before 12 and we're not stupid enough to take one w/the first overall.
Mahomes is the guy though that has the biggest complete bust potential of any of them, in my opinion.
For me that guy is Watson. Likes to go back door under pressure too often and doesn't try to extend the play, but rather to run first. I question his decision making too.
IMO Mahomes has the highest ceiling, so there is a dichotomy there.
I don't like Watson either, but there is no way he is a bigger gamble than Mahomes. No one ad libs more, is more consistently inaccurate, takes off and does crazy things than Mahomes.
I truly hope some team is stupid enough to take him early, as long as it's not the Browns.
For me that guy is Watson. Likes to go back door under pressure too often and doesn't try to extend the play, but rather to run first. I question his decision making too.
IMO Mahomes has the highest ceiling
I don't get where the run first perception of Watson comes from. Other then designed runs he's really not a take off running QB.
I agree that he made too many high risk throws.
What do you think gives Mahomes the highest ceiling?
I don't like Watson either, but there is no way he is a bigger gamble than Mahomes. No one ad libs more, is more consistently inaccurate, takes off and does crazy things than Mahomes.
I truly hope some team is stupid enough to take him early, as long as it's not the Browns.
I don't believe Mahomes is consistently inaccurate. He makes poor decisions at times, but I don't believe he is inaccurate. Also, no one is more inaccurate than Kizer has been.
Mahomes, to me, is Johnny Manziel without the poor size and the extremely poor human being. Also, Mahomes has a much better arm. I believe that is something that could work, if he is given time to learn.
Not sure that this is the best place for him but I do think he'll be a great QB if properly developed.
We disagree on his accuracy issues. His footwork is terrible. And while he makes many good throws, he misses way, way too many throws by a freaking mile.
Any QB with a cannon like his leads people to dream about if only they can fix his mechanics ....
He has a great personality, loves football, and is a natural leader so he has that much and a true cannon for an arm in his favor.
Footwork is one thing that can easily be fixed with practice. Technique can be learned. He already has decent anticipation with his throws but if he improves his footwork and throwing technique that will get much better most likely.
I think he really reminds me of Brett Favre in his early days. I think if he is not asked to start for a year or two that he could end up being the steal of this draft. If he gets forced into playing too early then all of his faults will blow up in his face and he could get ruined.
I don't have a strong desire to get him but I have fun thinking about Hue building him up into something special. I truly think HUE is the difference maker when I think about us drafting a project QB. This QB at least has the star potential.
Hue gets the call on drafting a QB and I think he likes Mahomes, and justifiably so. I also don't think Mahomes will be available when we pick at 33, so.....
With the #12 pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select,....
Hue gets the call on drafting a QB and I think he likes Mahomes, and justifiably so. I also don't think Mahomes will be available when we pick at 33, so.....
With the #12 pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select,....
If that's the case, I would bet we trade back some.
You have to remember, it's about value with this FO. Mahomes in the 20's, plus another 1st or 2nd next year provides value.
I don't think he makes it to round 2 because there is a lot of buzz tying him to Houston. Plus, teams like the 5th year option for QBs.
Also, there was that article talking about a bunch of teams having Watson and Trubisky as the top QB, but it also mentioned there were a couple that had Mahomes. It only takes one team falling in love with the guy.
All depends if there is a run on QBs early or none get taken until #12 or even later??? jmho
I watched the Baylor, LSU and K-State games so far ... hes intriguing so I'll watch more today ...
Man ... his arm is LIVE .. its frickin ELECTRIC ... there's no doubt about that ...
Its so hard to judge him for me ... its never been easy with QB's and has gotten harder with the spread O's .. and this is even harder cause its like sandlot ball ...
So far its been to hard for me to determine how accurate he is and how fast/ well he processes info ...
Gonna go watch more ... initial conclusions ..
- plenty of arm - lightning fast release .. once he makes up his mind the balls gone and there toot-sweet .. - keeps eyes downfield when scrambling - above average athelete and knows how to move in the pocket - tough, stood in there even when he knew he was going to get rocked
- mechanics are brutal .. non existent .. good luck with that one ..
Tough part for me is accuracy and "decision making" ... its so hard to tell with that O .. gonna go watch some more ...
For me that guy is Watson. Likes to go back door under pressure too often and doesn't try to extend the play, but rather to run first. I question his decision making too.
IMO Mahomes has the highest ceiling
I don't get where the run first perception of Watson comes from. Other then designed runs he's really not a take off running QB.
I agree that he made too many high risk throws.
What do you think gives Mahomes the highest ceiling?
Anticipation, quick release and the ability to throw a receiver open.
Most like to discuss the offenses a QB plays in, but it is the discernment of what a given defense is trying to do, that will seperate the wheat from the chaff.
If that's the case, I would bet we trade back some.
You have to remember, it's about value with this FO. Mahomes in the 20's, plus another 1st or 2nd next year provides value.
It's certainly a possibility (a trade down). However, I think trading down would be something this FO would do for other positions, but not being cute with a perceived franchise QB, if in fact that's what Hue sees. I think if Hue likes this QB, or any other one for that matter, they pull the trigger and draft him.
I also believe teams like him more than the general public and thus, although people may believe it's a reach at 12, it really may not be at all. I guess it's where you have him slated. I like him behind Trubisky.
j/c:...I think he likes Mahomes, and justifiably so.
Out of curiosity is there some report or link to why you think Hue likes Mahomes or are you speculating Hue likes him because you like him?
I think it's a sprinkle of all of those things. I've seen reports, pardon me, tweets from analysts referencing the fact they believe Hue likes Mahomes. I also see some peices of his game that remind me of Colin Kaepernick, but I think PM is the better prospect with a higher ceiling, although perhaps just as raw. Hue went on record saying he was gushing over Colin in his draft and wanted him badly. So I see a possible correlation there-- perhaps not a good sign. I like Mahomes, but I like Trubisky more. I'd prefer we take him at 12 but I don't believe he'll be there.
So, that's the broad paint brush gist of my earlier comment.
I wish some publication had time to track his throws on platform and off. I wonder what that info would tell us on his accuracy. Because from the eyeball and completely IMHO he is the most naturally accurate thrower I see. I don't think anyone in this class can drop it right in the breadbasket or lead his wr with anticipation like Pat does. Maybe I'm wrong but if I am I'd like it to be proven because man some of his throws both on and off platform just make my jaw literally drop. His other positives are icing for me.
I wish some publication had time to track his throws on platform and off. I wonder what that info would tell us on his accuracy. Because from the eyeball and completely IMHO he is the most naturally accurate thrower I see. I don't think anyone in this class can drop it right in the breadbasket or lead his wr with anticipation like Pat does. Maybe I'm wrong but if I am I'd like it to be proven because man some of his throws both on and off platform just make my jaw literally drop. His other positives are icing for me.
MATT WALDMAN RSP film room: called Patrick Mahomes "a freak". in that his accuracy off platform one can not find any discernible descent in his accuracy, which is a dichotomy (antitheses) to the norm.
Question, (to all) is it not the defense's agenda to take the apposing QB off of platform?
If he is inaccurate it is because of his inconsistency with the 'basic' element's of his (front) foot, leg and shoulder allignment.
As Hue Jackson likes to say ..." they are a hunk of clay".
j/c:...I think he likes Mahomes, and justifiably so.
Out of curiosity is there some report or link to why you think Hue likes Mahomes or are you speculating Hue likes him because you like him?
Nothing concrete, but there is speculation out there from some of the beat writers. I think Mary Kay had something written saying she has the sense that Hue prefers Mahomes over Kizer. Think they were the first two to get worked out at the time though. I'll see if I can find the article. Link
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As for Mahomes, they worked him out privately two weeks ago and I hear they like his arm talent and upside. He's a developmental project but I get the sense they like him better than DeShone Kizer, whom they also worked out privately last week. Everything is still on the table in the quarterback department, including trying to trade for a veteran such as Jimmy Garoppolo or A.J. McCarron, or drafting a top prospect such as Mitch Trubisky.
So yeah, speculation supported speculation, but it's draft season so it's pretty much what we'll get until it's over.
In Mahomes' final season at Texas Tech, the Red Raiders' quarterback threw 41 touchdowns compared to just 10 interceptions and logged 5,052 passing yards.
No matter how you slice and dice the guy that is impressive.
I stated from the first time I watched his tape that he reminded me of Farve.
He can do things others can not do. He needs to be coached but his errors are coachable.
His background is interesting. His father was a major leaguer. He has been around world class athletes and most likely will respond well to coaching.
My take is if Garoppolo can not be had get Trubisky and Mahomes.
In Mahomes' final season at Texas Tech, the Red Raiders' quarterback threw 41 touchdowns compared to just 10 interceptions and logged 5,052 passing yards.
So you want that pair? What does one give you that the other lacks? Or one gives you in huge amounts the other does not? Interesting notion. Just wish I understood better what you see in it. Maybe we just draft and trade for three a year until it clearly produces our franchise Qbee (who still may not be all that we need).
I dont think there is any better source on what the Browns will do than Michael Silver. Having said that, I don't recall Silver ever mentioning Mahomes being a target for the Browns. He does however mention Trubisky a lot. Trub is Hue's guy.
No quarterback in this draft stands apart or above the rest.
Not much separation even between the top five guys really.
We have the picks. They are assets to be used as leverage to improve. You have a little over a 50 percent success rate with first rounders. Increase the odds by taking two guys. It may be insurance but with that said maybe they blow two picks. Still have to take chances.
The Browns have to solve the quarterback issue.
If they can get Trubisky at 12 and Mahomes is available in the seocnd round I would take him.
Washington did it with Griffin and Cousins. Funny how that turned out after all that was given up to get Griffin.
Trubisky is not a sure thing. Mahomes has a load of natural talent. He just needs time and coaching.
Let them compete. Let the guy who shows best get the chance. Maybe down the road there is more than one option.
Mahomes just has a unique skill set. Like Aaron Rodgers he can throw the ball from all kinds of platforms. He can play the position like a short stop. You can't coach that. He has arm talent and instincts for the game.
Trubisky is a solid all around player. No real faults. At the same time he is not outstanding at any single thing. He may be fine but he does not have the upside that Mahomes may have.
That pick at #12 is very valuable in this year's draft. One of the main reasons is that there are some absolute studs that might fall that far.
Hooker, Allen, Barnett to name a few that might slip. Can we really afford to pass them up for a so-so pick at QB? I really find it hard to justify it to be honest.
It may well be we trade #12 for Jimmy G. I can easily see that happening and I won't fault them if they do. Still it doesn't look like its going to really happen.
IF we draft a QB at #12 it had better be Trub. He is the most polished IMHO of the QBs in this draft. Still he might be long gone by #12. If Trub is gone and none of the key players we wanted have dropped then I can see us just going ahead and drafting Pat there.
Yes, I know that pick #12 is way too high for a project QB but at the same time if they want him they mostly likely won't get him in round 2. There is no way to know what it will cost to move up into the bottom of the first. I think pat will be gone by pick 20-25. Pit would love him as big ben's heir so he definitely won't make it past them. By the time you move back that far to get Pat it might just be better to take him at 12 and be done with it. In a perfect world we draft him at #33. Our world seldom turns out to be perfect though.
It's going to be a tough draft day decision that is for sure!
I really don't know when any of these guys will be drafted and I won't even guess because there are always surprises.
For example, a few years ago, I was shocked when Bortles went before the others, but I was even more shocked that guys like Teddy, Carr, Manziel [yes, I admit it,] and Jimmy G lasted so long.
Conversely, I was even more shocked when duds like Gabbert, Ponder, and Locker went so high.
This year's group reminds me so much of he Gabbert, Ponder, Locker class.
I keep hearing the same catch word sound bites echoed about draft prospects and imho some of them are empty quotes and others are just wrong.
Other then arm talent I struggle to find support to notion that he has the highest ceiling or upside. And IF that projection is based on physical skillset then Kizer's spherical attributes are as good as any.
I guess I find a lot of the hype around Mahomes draft time groupthink mixed with a little 'lying season' loose talk.
Only know him as the kid from Texas Tech I got a call saying I should watch his tape and then I posted this thread. Others may have followed but fwiw this thread was started 100% organic. He was a 3rd rounder back then.
I keep hearing the same catch word sound bites echoed about draft prospects and imho some of them are empty quotes and others are just wrong.
Other then arm talent I struggle to find support to notion that he has the highest ceiling or upside. And IF that projection is based on physical skillset then Kizer's spherical attributes are as good as any.
I guess I find a lot of the hype around Mahomes draft time groupthink mixed with a little 'lying season' loose talk.
The only reason Kizer is also talked about in the first round is because of arm talent. I am against Kizer though because I have had to deal with him in real life and he is your typical super arrogant jerk of a person from ND quarterback room. To me ND just spoils QB's by giving them a sense of entitlement instead of a need to work hard at their craft and it comes from the board all the way on down to the coaches.
I keep hearing the same catch word sound bites echoed about draft prospects and imho some of them are empty quotes and others are just wrong.
Other then arm talent I struggle to find support to notion that he has the highest ceiling or upside. And IF that projection is based on physical skillset then Kizer's spherical attributes are as good as any.
I guess I find a lot of the hype around Mahomes draft time groupthink mixed with a little 'lying season' loose talk.
Sounds more like sour grapes from where I sit.
People professional or otherwise are entitle to their own opinion. No?
Only know him as the kid from Texas Tech I got a call saying I should watch his tape and then I posted this thread. Others may have followed but fwiw this thread was started 100% organic. He was a 3rd rounder back then.
Yep i remember when we were talking about him at first back then we were talking about him as a third-round Prospect maybe second round and judging the merits of whether or not he belong there. Now people are talking about him but the number 12 overall pick I just think it's interesting how the season has ended and nothing really has changed about his game film it now he's bolted up makes me question the hype surrounding him
I'm not a guy that develops a dislike for prospects...they all have a fit somewhere in the draft. And I'm partial to QBs and DBS.
I just question the label highest cieling.. strikes me as a non-specific way to praise a player.
I get what your saying Ed. Most of us had not watched much film of him back then to be fair though. I know I said I hadn't back then.
I don't think anyone is saying he should go in the first round. I think people are saying if you want him that is where you will HAVE to take him because several lower first round picks are looking at him quite closely. I think is arm talent and positive personality will land him in the first even though he is probably not going to start right away. A team like Pitt is a perfect fit for him and a nightmare for us if he gets to sit and learn behind big ben.
I'm confused you're saying that no one is saying that he should go in the first round but then you're turning around and saying he should go in the first round.
It sounds like semantics to me. People are talking about him as a first round pick right?
I'm confused you're saying that no one is saying that he should go in the first round but then you're turning around and saying he should go in the first round.
It sounds like semantics to me. People are talking about him as a first round pick right?
I don't get what your confused about. He is a guy that should be taken in the second round but will most likely be taken in the first by teams who are taking him too early simply because he is a QB. THEREFORE if the Browns want him they will also have to reach beyond his actual worth to grab him too. The only safe way some people see to do that is to take him at #12. No one think he should be drafted at 12 but some think it might happen due to how things might play out.
You're either willing to take player at a certain spot in the draft or you're not. If someone drafts a player at pick 12 then regardless of your reason/circumstances or your rationale that is where YOU value him based on the pick.
Wherever you draft a player is where you value them.
Is there much difference b/w Goff and Davis? seem like identical players.
Yes, 2" and 35 pounds. I'll take that at pick 32 over not having it at pick 1 or 2. I watched Goff a fair amount in college. Wanting to find something to really like about him. Never did. I think he can be better than say, Tannehill. But I don't feel like he's going to be a 'next level' player.
Brent Sobleski (Bleacher Report) was just on 92.3 WKRK and stated that Patrick Mahomes was the most accurate passer, with Watson being #2, when releasing the ball under 2.5 seconds.
**Disclaimer: I cannot find the data (or do not have access to the data) to back-up the claim by Sobleski.
Indeed! Obviously, being in a quick read and release offense may play a factor, but thought the info was worth noting (assuming Sobleski's data is correct).
Brent Sobleski (Bleacher Report) was just on 92.3 WKRK and stated that Patrick Mahomes was the most accurate passer, with Watson being #2, when releasing the ball under 2.5 seconds.
**Disclaimer: I cannot find the data (or do not have access to the data) to back-up the claim by Sobleski.
It makes sense from watching Mahomes I didn't have an issue with his accuracy so this isn't surprising to me.
3. Watson’s average time to attempt was 2.11 seconds in 2016, the sixth-fastest time in the nation.
While time in the pocket will differ from team to team, being able to get rid of the ball quickly is essential to the success of any quarterback. Watson’s average time to attempt this year was 2.11 seconds, sixth-fastest in the nation. This could be used as an argument that Watson was predetermining his reads and throwing it to the first receiver in his progressions, but when you look closer at his numbers, you see that he actually improved when he took more time in the pocket and had to go to his second, third, and fourth reads.
numbers from 2.6s and more:
172 dropbacks or 32.6 % of his dropbacks
sacks 11
atts 134
comp 70
comp % 52.2
11 TD 2 INT
NFL QB Rating 108.4
Originally Posted By: CHSDawg
What does this mean though? They throw their fair share of screen passes in that offense and in Clemson's a bit.
To me it means those QB can quickly and accurately get the ball out of their hands. I can't knock them for their systems or explaining it away by saying its a function of their offenses because from watching all these QBs they all throw a ton of screens and quick game and I've seen some QBs misson screen passes. So I guess another way to see it is that Mahomes and Watson miss less often on quick game passes then their counterparts. It would be nice to find all the QBs on the list...maybe it will come out later.
I think Pat has the most upside, because if he accepts coaching the sky is the limit. The arm, quick release, and pocket presence are very good. The accuracy is spotty when he doesn't set his feet, and the mechanics need work big time. All in all out of this group I like him the most.
Coming out of college I like him as much or more than any QB not named Wentz last year. I am officially a Pat Mahomes pimp I guess (providing there is something resembling value when we pick him).
My top 3 QBs (and the only 3 I would touch in this draft)...
Pat Trubs Webb
After watching some tape (albeit cut up YouTube tape that is not the best) I like Pat the most, and Trubs next. I would be happy with either at 33, and wouldn't want to, but wouldn't freak out if we traded back into round 1 to get the guy we want. Webb is a 2/20 at the highest for me as he shows flashes but is awful inconsistent.
I think Pat has the most upside, because if he accepts coaching the sky is the limit.
I’m curious because I keep reading people post that Pat has the most upside and I really want to understand what this means. Is it something in his physical skillset or traits playing style that the other prospects don’t have? When someone says QB X has the most upside what does it actually mean?
If I had to guess right now it seems like: ~Mahomes makes a bunch of adlib plays and has a strong arm = most upside
I guess I don’t understand what this means and I’ll just have to live with it.
Originally Posted By: BigWillieStyle
…The arm, quick release, and pocket presence are very good. The accuracy is spotty when he doesn't set his feet, and the mechanics need work big time. All in all out of this group I like him the most
I’m with you on the arm and quick release. Pocket presence…I don’t know. He seems eager to bail from the pocket. And again I agree about his feet and mechanics...which I think are a big deal when it comes to evaluation.
If I had to pick the QB I like the most it would be Pipkin from Tiffin, but I don’t expect him to be drafted until 7-UDFA and I don’t think he’s the best QB in the draft. He’s a project. He’s on the short side, comes from an air-raid spread and plays D-II. But the kid has a big time arm, is a big time athlete and playmaker.
It means (at least to me) he has the most natural talent. His issues aren't with arm talent, lack of athleticism, anticipation on throws etc. Pat's issues are of a mental or repetition (coaching) nature, and if he ever figures that part out the sky is the limit.
Guys like Kizer have the ideal size, athleticism, but really struggle with their anticipation......wouldn't draft him because of this.
Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
Trubs has a ton of "upside" because his issues are much like PM and aren't of a physical nature. I wouldn't argue with someone who said his upside was as high as Pat's...I just like Pat a little better because of the big arm and quick release.
Basically exactly what Willie said. When I refer to upside it's a combination of established blue chip trait quantities and what of his non blue traits are coachable. If the lacking traits are coachable or inherited are of great concern. It's why I'm not a huge fan of trub or kizer and even less so Watson. I see a severe lack in blue chip traits in this class in general but imo Pat has not only the most but the best combination of inheriTed traits vs coachable traits. I remember you breaking down qbs into charts before Ed but if you could post one I could reference where I differ in my approach.
It means (at least to me) he has the most natural talent.
Being what specifically? Arm talent? and.......what else?
To me natural talent refers to something tangible or some ability.
Size is a physical trait does he have the best frame? I would say no. Kizer/Webb have the best 'upside' in terms of frame/filling out. I would argue that both Trubs and Watson have better frames.
Arm talent? I think Kizer has the most. When I look at arm talent I want to see velocity without build-up. To be clear Mahomes has a strong arm but I also see him muscle up or hitch up or crow-hop to generate some of his 'heaters'. But then I also have to factor in consistency into arm talent because while both Mahomes and Kizer have strong arms they inconsistencies limit them imo. But lets say he's tied with Kizer and Webb for me.
Athleticism? I would say Watson, Trubs, Kizer and Pipkin are all superior athletes.
Playmaking? Mahomes does make a lot of adlib/improvisational plays but he's also actively seeks/causes them as opposed to making a play when the play breaks down. Watson to me is the best playmaker followed by Pipkin and Kizer/Trubs and Mahomes are kinda clumped together for me.
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His issues aren't with arm talent, lack of athleticism, anticipation on throws etc.
I think its a projection to comment on Pat anticipation because of the air-raid system. He does show some anticipation in that offense but those concepts (along w/ Cal) least mirror NFL offenses.
Quote:
Pat's issues are of a mental or repetition (coaching) nature, and if he ever figures that part out the sky is the limit.
Maybe...but even within the structure and coaching of his college offense he lacked discipline so maybe discipline is also an issue? And those issues he needs to figure out are very hard to figure out.
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Guys like Kizer have the ideal size, athleticism, but really struggle with their anticipation......wouldn't draft him because of this.
I can get not liking a prospect for something specific you dislike in their game. But since the crux of the discussion is about talent/upside/ how can you mention 2 traits that are indicative of talent/upside in regard to Kizer but you dismiss them? It seems fair to me that if you are praising Mahomes based on upside and minimizing his flaws that you should at least acknowledge that Kizer also has the physical traits that constitute upside BUT he also displays flaw that make him a risky a boom/bust prospect so to speak.
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Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
Lol, you really think Watson has a noodle arm? um okay lol....
Basically exactly what Willie said. When I refer to upside it's a combination of established blue chip trait quantities and what of his non blue traits are coachable.
And out of curiosity of others process i'm asking what are the traits that constitute upside for you?
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If the lacking traits are coachable or inherited are of great concern. It's why I'm not a huge fan of trub or kizer and even less so Watson. I see a severe lack in blue chip traits in this class in general but imo Pat has not only the most but the best combination of inheriTed traits vs coachable traits.
Its hard to talk evaluation process in abstract but here we are so here I go...... I think its important in the evaluation process to see in college some of what you expect to see from the prospect in the NFL. I readily believe that any prospect will have to become far better in the pros then they were in college to have success so there is an unknown element of 'upside' or physical traits or potential. But you still want to see on film traits which you can relate to what they're gonna be asked to do. And in the evaluation process you have to weigh them both like you said inherited vs coachable. But for me in my evaluation process its much easier to assess and quantify what I can see them do that I think translate to the NFL vs tools/upside which may or may not equate to production in the NFL.
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I remember you breaking down qbs into charts before Ed but if you could post one I could reference where I differ in my approach.
Basically exactly what Willie said. When I refer to upside it's a combination of established blue chip trait quantities and what of his non blue traits are coachable.
And out of curiosity of others process i'm asking what are the traits that constitute upside for you? If I'm reading you correctly you want to know if there are specific traits that project to a higher upside? In that case I think for most people it's pretty obvious they mean physical traits. For me I have a threshold for build and athletic ability I greatly prefer but once you go passed that its of little concern unless the qb will rely on running as a major component. For me personally it's much more complicated than that and I will explain once I have your qb chart I mentioned as it will be much easier with a reference point. Neither of us has all day.
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If the lacking traits are coachable or inherited are of great concern. It's why I'm not a huge fan of trub or kizer and even less so Watson. I see a severe lack in blue chip traits in this class in general but imo Pat has not only the most but the best combination of inheriTed traits vs coachable traits.
Its hard to talk evaluation process in abstract but here we are so here I go...... I think its important in the evaluation process to see in college some of what you expect to see from the prospect in the NFL. I readily believe that any prospect will have to become far better in the pros then they were in college to have success so there is an unknown element of 'upside' or physical traits or potential. But you still want to see on film traits which you can relate to what they're gonna be asked to do. And in the evaluation process you have to weigh them both like you said inherited vs coachable. But for me in my evaluation process its much easier to assess and quantify what I can see them do that I think translate to the NFL vs tools/upside which may or may not equate to production in the NFL. I agree I think it's a vague way of understanding. We've had some good discussion and I wish I had the time to get into your timestamp discussions and things like that that are much more detailed. I can't speak for others but alot of my responses especially to you particularly probably seem summarized. If I refer to a trait it's just a broad collection of data and tape study amassed into whether that trait for that prospect is generally above/below the threshold I believe a qb needs to succeed, or possibly even a red or blue chip type trait.
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I remember you breaking down qbs into charts before Ed but if you could post one I could reference where I differ in my approach.
I have run right now but will pull it up later
I hope that answers properly. I wish I had a home computer to write these responses better as writing is not my strong suit and even less so when I can only see 5 lines of type at a time and have to continually scroll.
Also..........not trying to be a goof here.............but, I have a huge problem when a qb has accuracy issues, takes off out of the pocket too early, and ad libs an inordinate amount of plays
My bad I thought it was 3 but thanks for the clarification. And you are entitled to your opinion Vers. Unless im mistaken you don't really prefer any of them right? I may laud for mahomes over all and disagree with you to an extent on parts of his game but fwiw he's still not even in my top 15 for sure and possibly even top 20 or 25 (hit a stall lately on tape with my schedule). This class is just way too strong defensively and at the skill positionset to even consider a qb not named Jimmy with 12. IMO the top 10 qbs aren't that far apart though I do think it's actually pretty deep for qb in general just no studs.
I have Trub ranked highest on my board followed by Watson. My board keeps fluctuating, but I have Trub ranked at 22 right now. I have Watson at 33.
Mahomes and Kizer have big-time upside, but both scare the crap out of me and I probably would not draft them before round 4. I think both have the biggest bust potential if they are taken high.
I do like some of the other guys........Peterman and Webb in the 4th.
I could be way off on this one, but Josh Dobbs intrigues me a bit if he is available in the 5th or 6th.
I just turned on NFL Network and Mahomes is on the screen. Dude has ZERO pressure, and he leaves the pocket. Why? Next clip has him dropping back, feet moving out of whack...never saw a taught drop like that, and he floats the ball up into the endzone w/both feet almost completely parallel to the LOS.
Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
You realize none of those show a strong arm right? 2 medium passes one of which has slow ball speed. The third is a hail mary so slow the WR has to turn around and wait for it. If anything it shows a weaker arm.
I just turned on NFL Network and Mahomes is on the screen. Dude has ZERO pressure, and he leaves the pocket. Why? Next clip has him dropping back, feet moving out of whack...never saw a taught drop like that, and he floats the ball up into the endzone w/both feet almost completely parallel to the LOS.
Goodness!
I think the footwork goes back to the baseball background. He didn't start football until 7th grade, but he grew up in MLB clubhouses.
As far as the bailing from the pocket, I'm not sure what the deal is. I'm not sure if he's feeling ghosts or if it goes back to coaching. It kind of looks like he spends/spent a lot of time watching Manziel film. I think Kingsbury is a good recruiter, but I'm not sure how great of a coach he is. Mahomes kind of reminds me of the football version of Kyrie. Falls into Hero ball to often. Part of it is it seems like the team needs him to.
When there is pressure, Mahomes is pretty good at avoiding it. He can stand in the pocket and fire strikes with pressure bearing down, but he did seem to avoid it more after he got banged up.
Going back to Manziel, I do think it's a decent comparison play style-wise. He strikes me as a bigger version without the off the field problems. A bit of the same charisma.
There is bust potential, but I like him the best of the options. Seems to have fewer limitations than Trubisky and Watson, and something about Kizer just puts me off him. I guess I don't like the way he (Kizer) handles adversity. Some of that may be his coach.
Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
You realize none of those show a strong arm right? 2 medium passes one of which has slow ball speed. The third is a hail mary so slow the WR has to turn around and wait for it. If anything it shows a weaker arm.
Umm...I don't know what to say at this point.
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
While I understand and embrace that there is degree of subjectivity and preference when it comes to evaluation at the same time I believe there are some things that are objective.
To me when you say that none of the above passes shows a strong arm and your claim that the last throw shows a weaker arm I'm taken aback and scratching my head.
The ball is spotted on the far hash mark. Watson throws a deep comeback to the far sideline caught 2 yards past the line to gain or 16 yard from the LOS. This type of throw a deep sideline out/comeback from the opposite hash mark is considered by many to be the litmus test throw from arm strength. Watsons begins the throw from a depth of ~8 yards. Somebody that like math can tell you the actual distance of the throw but I heard some coaches refer to this as 'a country mile'.
This throw is from the near hash but its another deep out/comeback. Has a defender bearing down on him and throws ~17 yards past the LOS beginning from a depth of ~8 yards.
This is a throw which you said shows a weaker arm.
Watson is near the sideline at the ~38 yard line. While under duress throws to middle of the field ~3 yard line.
Maybe I'm off.
Any other thoughts from the thread?
Do these throws show a week arm?
Do these throws meet the narrative put forth by BigWillieStyle of a noodle arm?
If I'm reading you correctly you want to know if there are specific traits that project to a higher upside? In that case I think for most people it's pretty obvious they mean physical traits.
Kinda. I know everyone has traits which they consider to show 'upside'. I covered what I consider those traits to be my previous post. But its not about what I consider as upside traits....
My question is to those people that favor Mahomes because of 'upside' what are those traits that they looking at that define upside for them.
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I remember you breaking down qbs into charts before Ed but if you could post one I could reference where I differ in my approach.
Ok that's what I figured. Yeah I can't really speak for them. I hate the term upside in general honestly. I much prefer floor and ceiling. Upside is just too broad and generic to give a good sense of what you're trying to portray imo.
Especially when I discuss things with people who aren't as well versed in tape it leads to better discussion. Such as today I was talking about Howard with a guy at work. Instead of telling him he's a stud te from bama with athleticism and high upside blah blah I gave him a range of (barring major injury) where he should fall as a pro best and worst case scenario. My opinion being Jermaine Gresham worst and really unlimited ceiling but in the mold of a Tony Gonzo type player. It's over simplified but it does tend to help with discussion I think.
Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
You realize none of those show a strong arm right? 2 medium passes one of which has slow ball speed. The third is a hail mary so slow the WR has to turn around and wait for it. If anything it shows a weaker arm.
Umm...I don't know what to say at this point.
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
While I understand and embrace that there is degree of subjectivity and preference when it comes to evaluation at the same time I believe there are some things that are objective.
To me when you say that none of the above passes shows a strong arm and your claim that the last throw shows a weaker arm I'm taken aback and scratching my head.
The ball is spotted on the far hash mark. Watson throws a deep comeback to the far sideline caught 2 yards past the line to gain or 16 yard from the LOS. This type of throw a deep sideline out/comeback from the opposite hash mark is considered by many to be the litmus test throw from arm strength. Watsons begins the throw from a depth of ~8 yards. Somebody that like math can tell you the actual distance of the throw but I heard some coaches refer to this as 'a country mile'.
This throw is from the near hash but its another deep out/comeback. Has a defender bearing down on him and throws ~17 yards past the LOS beginning from a depth of ~8 yards.
This is a throw which you said shows a weaker arm.
Watson is near the sideline at the ~38 yard line. While under duress throws to middle of the field ~3 yard line.
Maybe I'm off.
Any other thoughts from the thread?
Do these throws show a week arm?
Do these throws meet the narrative put forth by BigWillieStyle of a noodle arm?
Not to pick on you but these are not very good video quality as they are not playing at real speed so it makes it look slower than it is.
The first one is just a medium pass of about 20 yards vertically but he throws it poorly to the point the guy is lunging to catch what should be a simple and easy pass. It also takes too long to get there. It a prime example of why I don't like his ball placement skills too.
The second one is not to bad but again the receivers always seem to be forced to come back to the ball instead of being able to catch in stride or to be led with the ball. Even with him coming back for it , it almost hits the ground when the WR has to scoop it up. It also gets there so slowly the DB almost kills the WR but luckily misses the hit and stumbles or that would have been brutal.
ON the last one its a simple hail mary. No one expects these to be that accurate. My problem is that it gets there soooo slowly the WR is standing around waiting for it after he had totally burned the DBs to the point they could have intercepted it. The angle of the launch shows how tough a throw this is for him. The ball has to go very high vertically to go the distance. Scouts call that a Big ball and almost always shows a lack of arm strength except when it is used to drop the ball in the bucket. For this pass to show good arm strength you would need to see it travel on a lower trajectory and arrive in time so the receiver is not standing around waiting on the ball.
Guys like Watson have a noodle arm.......wouldn't draft him because of this.
You realize none of those show a strong arm right? 2 medium passes one of which has slow ball speed. The third is a hail mary so slow the WR has to turn around and wait for it. If anything it shows a weaker arm.
Umm...I don't know what to say at this point.
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
While I understand and embrace that there is degree of subjectivity and preference when it comes to evaluation at the same time I believe there are some things that are objective.
To me when you say that none of the above passes shows a strong arm and your claim that the last throw shows a weaker arm I'm taken aback and scratching my head.
The ball is spotted on the far hash mark. Watson throws a deep comeback to the far sideline caught 2 yards past the line to gain or 16 yard from the LOS. This type of throw a deep sideline out/comeback from the opposite hash mark is considered by many to be the litmus test throw from arm strength. Watsons begins the throw from a depth of ~8 yards. Somebody that like math can tell you the actual distance of the throw but I heard some coaches refer to this as 'a country mile'.
This throw is from the near hash but its another deep out/comeback. Has a defender bearing down on him and throws ~17 yards past the LOS beginning from a depth of ~8 yards.
This is a throw which you said shows a weaker arm.
Watson is near the sideline at the ~38 yard line. While under duress throws to middle of the field ~3 yard line.
Maybe I'm off.
Any other thoughts from the thread?
Do these throws show a week arm?
Do these throws meet the narrative put forth by BigWillieStyle of a noodle arm?
Not to pick on you but these are not very good video quality as they are not playing at real speed so it makes it look slower than it is.
The first one is just a medium pass of about 20 yards vertically but he throws it poorly to the point the guy is lunging to catch what should be a simple and easy pass. It also takes too long to get there. It a prime example of why I don't like his ball placement skills too.
The second one is not to bad but again the receivers always seem to be forced to come back to the ball instead of being able to catch in stride or to be led with the ball. Even with him coming back for it , it almost hits the ground when the WR has to scoop it up. It also gets there so slowly the DB almost kills the WR but luckily misses the hit and stumbles or that would have been brutal.
ON the last one its a simple hail mary. No one expects these to be that accurate. My problem is that it gets there soooo slowly the WR is standing around waiting for it after he had totally burned the DBs to the point they could have intercepted it. The angle of the launch shows how tough a throw this is for him. The ball has to go very high vertically to go the distance. Scouts call that a Big ball and almost always shows a lack of arm strength except when it is used to drop the ball in the bucket. For this pass to show good arm strength you would need to see it travel on a lower trajectory and arrive in time so the receiver is not standing around waiting on the ball.
Just my $.02 but the first two appeared to be comeback routes, so the receiver...coming back to the ball is kind of the point. They were also both at least 30 yards in the air on a rope. The last one, the receiver doesn't stop as far as I can tell, it even appears that he has to jump for the ball as he's heading into the endzone becaus the overthrew him. And that was a 60 yard pass, not exactly a dink.
I'm not a huge fan of any of these QB's based on my very limited ability to watch the college game, but to say he has a "noodle" arm seems a bit disingenous. Maybe not a cannon for an arm, but "noodle"?
The first one is just a medium pass of about 20 yards vertically but he throws it poorly to the point the guy is lunging to catch what should be a simple and easy pass. It also takes too long to get there. It a prime example of why I don't like his ball placement skills too.
Lol, I can't tell if this is a put on or not....he throws it poorly?
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The second one is not to bad but again the receivers always seem to be forced to come back to the ball instead of being able to catch in stride or to be led with the ball.
They are both comeback routes. And not just comebacks routes they're very deep comeback routes. The receivers are supposed to comeback at angle. You can't throw a comeback route 'in stride'.
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Even with him coming back for it , it almost hits the ground when the WR has to scoop it up. It also gets there so slowly the DB almost kills the WR but luckily misses the hit and stumbles or that would have been brutal.
Neither receiver has to scoop the ball up nor does either ball almost hit the ground.
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ON the last one its a simple hail mary. No one expects these to be that accurate. My problem is that it gets there soooo slowly the WR is standing around waiting for it after he had totally burned the DBs to the point they could have intercepted it. The angle of the launch shows how tough a throw this is for him. The ball has to go very high vertically to go the distance. Scouts call that a Big ball and almost always shows a lack of arm strength except when it is used to drop the ball in the bucket.
Ball gets there slowly sooo slowly? Lol, um okay...
Dude scrambles out of the pocket under duress is about to be hit stops at the sideline throws a TD pass to the middle of the field some ~61 yards in the air and lol you're acting like not only isn't the throw impressive you're making it out to be bad play. smh
Again, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I don't understand how any can look at these throws or Watson in general and come away thinking he has a noodle arm or lacks arm strength....but who knew? Lol.
I'm gonna leave it the Watson arm strength convo with what Greg Gabriel (The Bears' former director of college scouting, Greg Gabriel has over 30 years of experience in NFL scouting) said:
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Anyone who doesn’t think his arm is strong enough to play in the NFL doesn’t know how to evaluate. He has no trouble making every required NFL throw. He has proven this over and over again on tape. While he may not have the quickest release, he can make all the throws and can easily throw the ball 55 yards downfield with a tight spiral.
btw-I have often heard the term Big Ball but never heard it in the context you are using it. Big Ball, when I've heard refers to a ballsy throw or a downfield bomb.
Ed it's obvious you don't see things the way I do and that's fine.
Ask your self this question though. Why does Clemson HAVE to use sooo many comeback routes? To me it's because their QB is horrible at hitting players in stride and has poor ball placement. I mean comeback routes are not the best routes to use because it leads to WR getting hit from behind a lot from a helpless position and it absolutely kills your chances at YAC.
If this was even a halfway decent draft for QBs Watson would be a round 2 or 3 pick at best. I hope chicago loves him enough to draft him at 3 because that would let a kid with talent have a chance to land for us at 12. I think he is just blowing smoke to get someone who wants wants to inquire about trades. It's just that time of year.
Big Ball has always referred to how a weak armed QB has to throw the ball high to get it down field because on the old overhead cameras it literally got bigger because it got closer to the camera. Been hearing and using it that way for over 15 years. No biggie though.
The opposite of throwing it with a big ball is "throwing it on a rope" which as deep passes that don't need to go high in the air to go downfield and have a LOT less arc to them.
Ed it's obvious you don't see things the way I do and that's fine.
Ask your self this question though. Why does Clemson HAVE to use sooo many comeback routes? To me it's because their QB is horrible at hitting players in stride and has poor ball placement. I mean comeback routes are not the best routes to use because it leads to WR getting hit from behind a lot from a helpless position and it absolutely kills your chances at YAC.
If this was even a halfway decent draft for QBs Watson would be a round 2 or 3 pick at best. I hope chicago loves him enough to draft him at 3 because that would let a kid with talent have a chance to land for us at 12. I think he is just blowing smoke to get someone who wants wants to inquire about trades. It's just that time of year.
Big Ball has always referred to how a weak armed QB has to throw the ball high to get it down field because on the old overhead cameras it literally got bigger because it got closer to the camera. Been hearing and using it that way for over 15 years. No biggie though.
I think you are the only one who see things your way, actually I question if you are actually seeing it, or if you are just seeing what you believe in.
There was never a single question about Watson arm, the velocity stuff comes from one source that isn't even official and nobody knows how its calculated.
If anything Watson can be acused of lacking touch, lacking arm is absurd considering his accuracy and production on 40+ passes.
...Why does Clemson HAVE to use sooo many comeback routes?
To me it's because their QB is horrible at hitting players in stride and has poor ball placement. I mean comeback routes are not the best routes to use because it leads to WR getting hit from behind a lot from a helpless position and it absolutely kills your chances at YAC.
Again everyone is entitled to their opinions...but...
First, in a previous discussion you said you don't watch a lot of college football. Imo that doesn't give you a good vantage point to gauge whether Clemson uses comeback routes at higher frequency then is normal.
Second, I am not going to have discussion about different routes and why certain route combinations are called because you wouldn't believe me nor agree.....so its kinda seems pointless. (eg comeback routes are called when a defenses are playing coverages that 'give' them to you like a Cover 3 they are also called when a CB is concerned about getting beat deep and is 'bailing' out of their backpedal to turn and run early etc...)
Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree with almost everything we've discussed and I think some of your thoughts are...well....subjective.
Anywho....did you ever look at the vid I posted in the Watson film breakdown thread where Matt Waldman discusses some of the same plays we discussed?
Watson can have a good career but I see a small ball QB that may have a slightly better arm than Kessler but he takes to many big hits, has some mid range accuracy issues. In this system we need a big arm and I would take Davis webb at 33 over Watson if both are there.
Watson can have a good career but I see a small ball QB that may have a slightly better arm than Kessler but he takes to many big hits, has some mid range accuracy issues. In this system we need a big arm and I would take Davis webb at 33 over Watson if both are there.
Watson small?????
Webb is an intriguing prospect... I kind of like big Arm QB's, but it has all to do with decision making.
There is nothing worst than a big arm QB that is indecisive (Weeden)...
Watson can have a good career but I see a small ball QB that may have a slightly better arm than Kessler but he takes to many big hits, has some mid range accuracy issues. In this system we need a big arm and I would take Davis webb at 33 over Watson if both are there.
To make a comp I see Watson as plussed up version of Andy Dalton. So it depends on which direction the passing game goes. Dalton has been very productive with Hue.
I like Webb too, I think he has easy arm strength. He doesn't have to muscle up to drive the ball with velocity. He's a more disciplined player then Mahomes but like Mahomes comes from air-raid spread offense and therefore has a steeper learning curve then the non-air raid QB prospects.
Andy Dalton is a fantastic comparison. Hell coming out I saw Dalton as a small ball QB that couldnt muscle it beyond 18 yards. that was pretty much his range.
To be clear I meant a better version of Dalton when I said a plussed up version. Similar college offensive concepts but imo I think Watson is bigger, more productive, bigger arm, better athlete, better playmaker.
Loved the interview and thank you for sharing. The young man seems smart, understands what he will need to work on, but has the confidence to think he can adjust.
Still has a huge learning curve but him and Trubisky are the QBs I like in this draft at 12 and think at least one of them will be there.
Yes, I watched that vid and many others too on my own. It only reinforced what I saw. I don't feel the need to do breakdowns for you anymore because we are too far apart on terminology and what we value. I see no need to spend hours making a post just to have you say you can't see anything I am explaining when I explain things as simple as I can and others understand me just fine.
I haven't missed on any QB i did an eval on in the past 5 seasons so I am going to stick with what works for me. If watson doesn't end up in a short passing game management style of the WCO then I don't see him ever making it in the NFL. He is a super nice kid with great character and I like him as a person but he won't do well in the NFL unless its the perfect system for him but there are too many dumb OC that play their system instead of adapting to the QB they have so I don't have high hopes for Watson.
BTW i know this text doesn't show tone of voice and things get taken the wrong way so let me be clear. I don't mean any disrespect. I am not angry, upset, or offended. I'm just chill and its all good. It's perfectly fine if people don't share my opinions or evaluations. We won't know who is right for several years either way.
The key to Mahomes is how well will he take to NFL coaching?
The NFL is about perfect practice. There is a way to play. The team structure prepares young quarterbacks to play in the NFL.
Film study is constant and reinforced by practice. If you can not grasp the playbook, the huddle, the terminology, pre-snap calls, and post snap recognition you can not play in the NFL no matter about your arm.
Mahomes came from an off brand offense. You can not judge him by NFL standards. He was asked to run "their" offense. It is not his fault that some of his issues come from what he ran and their lack of defense. They ran a lot of plays and expected to score a lot of points. Make plays. Force throws.
He will have to learn a new way to play. It will take time.
What needs to be determined is how will he take to learning?
Giants coach Ben McAdoo attended Texas Tech QB Patrick Mahomes' Pro Day. The Record's Art Stapleton believes McAdoo, who has avoided Pro Days in the past, showing up is a "sign" the Giants are giving "strong consideration" to drafting an heir apparent for Eli Manning. Considering Manning's age (36) and level of play last season, it would be wise for New York to start looking toward the future. They are a sleeper team to take a quarterback in the first round.
Related: Giants Source: The Record Apr 1 - 10:21 AM
That's the key. IMHO, He'll need a year to learn, and another to grow. But I'd be excited to see him in his third year, after two years of good coaching and a year as a starter.
By all accounts he has the intelligence, the work ethic and the will. I know it may not be vogue, but I LOVE that he can make unconventional throws. I also love that he has a big arm and an ability for throwing accurately on the run. I remember getting burned by guys like Plunkett and Elway, and grudgingly admired their athleticism and skill at making unconventional throws that made the difference in games. Their skill sets, abilities, and wills carried them to Super Bowl wins.
Here's part of an article with some interesting quotes. The entire piece is here:
“He is a big-time developmental prospect, and I mean big time in both the positive and negative,” McShay said. “I think his upside may be as great as any quarterback in this class, but his learning curve could be as great as any quarterback in this class because he comes from a system that has not translated well to the NFL. No quarterback from that Air Raid-style offense has ever sustained success in the league.
“Mahomes throws the best deep ball, is the most accurate deep passer in this class and made some throws from launch points that I honestly can never remember seeing, like almost submarine throws and sidearms and body 100 mph falling off balance to the right throwing back to the left. Bad decisions, but great throws. So his tape was a roller-coaster ride.”
The highs were results of a phenomenal arm. The lows were byproducts of sloppy footwork and mechanics. The lack of fundamentals can be explained by inexperience.
Mahomes, 21, is the son of the former MLB pitcher with the same name. His godfather is LaTroy Hawkins, another retired big-time pitcher. So the younger Mahomes, 6-foot-2 and 225 pounds, was a pitcher and a basketball player growing up. He started playing football in seventh grade and didn’t become a starting quarterback until his junior season at Whitehouse High School in Texas. He was a member of the baseball and football teams at Texas Tech until last year, when he gave up baseball and focused solely on football for the first time.
“I didn’t work a lot of quarterback stuff when I was young,” Mahomes said at the NFL Scouting Combine. “So I kind of just got out there and started just playing, and in high school, I ran a spread offense, but I kind of sat back there and made plays. Going to college, you see every year I get better and better.
“[NFL teams want to know] how hard I want to work. They know I have the talent, and it’s going to be all about if I can get my base right, if I can be consistent with my mechanics every time. If I do that, I feel like I can excel at the next level.”
It will likely take time. Mahomes has been working with private quarterbacks coach Mike Sheppard as he prepares to transition from Tech’s pass-happy, spread offense, which functioned out of the shotgun and without a huddle.
Dynamic athlete
Kingsbury argues Mahomes won’t be as big a project in the NFL as some believe because Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers and Matthew Stafford of the Detroit Lions have done pretty well despite unconventional footwork and mechanics. “Pat’s a dynamic athlete,” Kingsbury said. “Anything they ask him to do, whether it be under center or five-step drops or seven-step drops, he’ll pick up quickly and be able to do it and do it at a high level. I’ve heard a bunch about his mechanics and his footwork and blah, blah, blah, but you watch those guys play who are at the top of their game, and they’re playing very similar styles to what he played in college.”
Kingsbury also insisted Mahomes’ intelligence will help him acclimate and pointed to the marketing major being voted the Big 12 Scholar-Athlete of the Year by the conference’s coaches in December.
Mahomes is a humble, laid-back leader whose teammates love him, Kingsbury said, and his desire to learn and improve shines through.
“It’s all about going to the right team, the right organization,” Mahomes said. “I just want to get coached really hard. I want to have every chance to go out there and prove my game every single day.”
Kingsbury is convinced the team that bets on Mahomes won’t be sorry.
“With his arm talent and his athletic ability and his mind for the game, when he continues to focus on football year-round, he’s just going to take off,” Kingsbury said. “I think people that see that and the teams that see that are going to really get a steal in the draft.”
Yes, I watched that vid and many others too on my own. It only reinforced what I saw.
I was only asking because its been up there for awhile and you said you were going to take a look at it. I was just curious about your thoughts on Matt Waldman's view since he was breaking down some of the exact same play we discussed. It sure didn't seem like he agreed with your take to reinforce what you say.
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I don't feel the need to do breakdowns for you anymore because we are too far apart on terminology and what we value.
To be clear you weren't doing the breakdowns for me, lol. And I wasn't asking you to do any breakdowns. YOU chose to comment on the video gifs I posted in response to another poster's comment that Watson had a noodle arm.
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I see no need to spend hours making a post just to have you say you can't see anything I am explaining when I explain things as simple as I can and others understand me just fine.
Let's not get it confused. I completely understand what you are saying I just don't agree. And since you mention others it seems from the past replies that others disagree also.
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I haven't missed on any QB i did an eval on in the past 5 seasons so I am going to stick with what works for me.
Good for you. If true that's a freakin amazing hit rate. And no one is asking you to change what works for you. Just have a discussion. I posted my draft rankings last year so its verifiable i didn't get everyone right no one does (other then you apparently). But i did have Prescott as my top QB back when everyone was killing him.
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BTW i know this text doesn't show tone of voice and things get taken the wrong way so let me be clear. I don't mean any disrespect. I am not angry, upset, or offended. I'm just chill and its all good. It's perfectly fine if people don't share my opinions or evaluations. We won't know who is right for several years either way.
You don't need to qualify your tone one way or the other. I didn't azzume anything disrespectful from your posts.
Draft evaluation is something I plan to do more of in the future whether on-line or radio/podcast. So i try be as accurate and as clear as I can when discussing draft prospects. I don't expect everyone to agree on sports internet message board. But on the whole I'm easy breezy no disrespect intended from me either just disagreement.
I don't like the idea of drafting a guy to play quarterback (especially in the first few rounds) if the consensus is that you basically have to "reprogram" how he plays the position...
When you start changing throwing motions, or focusing on footwork or mechanics, first off, you're losing so much time. In today's NFL, no one has the time to wait on QBs anymore.
And then I feel like, what's the chance that after you "fix" him, that he's either not as "good" as he was before, or that you end up finding out that he's just not actually good..
Where QBs get drafted vs. where they probably should go as it relates to that class' talent pool is almost maddening.
A guy like Mahomes, who seems to need at least two whole seasons to learn, should never be considered with a 1st round pick. Shouldn't even be a thought... regardless of what he ends up becoming.
I hate drafting QBs.
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Starting to think differently about this whole thing.
I am unsure about any of these quarterbacks. Since that is the case. Maybe just take the BPA for picks 1 and 12.
Come back late in the first (or hold to pick 33) or when it looks like "the time" and take Mahomes.
Let Kessler start or go with Oswieler. Watch Mahomes for a year and if they like what they see in his development then go with him next year. If not go all in on next years draft and grab the best prospect be it Darnold or whoever.
Agreed, good article. QB is the most important position on the team no doubt but I can't see drafting one in a weak class just to draft one when the draft is considered so deep at other positions. Some of the QB's in this class could come out and surprise and be good but the consensus is they are all flawed and mediocre. It really seems to be a crap shoot with all of them.
There are things about each guy that I like. At the same time I just don't see a guy I totally like.
Last year I was a huge Wentz guy. My feeling was he was a mature college quarterback. He controlled the offense. He made calls and changed plays. He showed pre-snap reads and post snap recognition. I felt very strongly that he would be a good NFL quarterback.
Trubisky looks the cleanest to me of the guys in this draft. Watson probably the most ready. But I am just not over the top with them. Kizer and Mahomes have the physical tool set. Kizer gives me pause because he was inconsistent and I question his ability to run a team.
Mahomes I know will need work. But Mahomes has something about him. His arm talent is exceptional. Not just in strength. At the same time he will have to learn discipline to become a NFL passer and not just a thrower.
Somehow though I think he will get it. When he does he could be something special.
Yes, I watched that vid and many others too on my own. It only reinforced what I saw.
I was only asking because its been up there for awhile and you said you were going to take a look at it. I was just curious about your thoughts on Matt Waldman's view since he was breaking down some of the exact same play we discussed. It sure didn't seem like he agreed with your take to reinforce what you say. -- Can you send me a link to it? I admit I forgot about it. I've never heard of the guy before but then I don't listen to what many of the guys on broadcast have to say since most of them are not that good at it or they are very biased towards one system or another. I am not an expert on the various systems. I do earn a partial living training kids to athletes for various sports in South Korea and the USA. For example I took a 12 year old beanpole with no muscle mass whose parents desperately wanted him to make the soccer team in Korea so he could get a high school scholarship. He could even do 10 push ups when we started 10 months ago. Now I have him doing 220 pushups daily at age 13. I mean him do far more than just push ups but that gives you an idea of how I can transform a person in a short time. I'm very big on building the core and avoiding weights for kids though. I only let them use their own body as weight until 15 years old. I don't have time to learn all the coaching stuff about football. I just focus on QBs and LT because I love the QB position and I played LT. I can still look at a player's core mechanics for any position and tell by his musculature and movement style what he lacks and needs to improve on though. So I guess you could say I don't look at things from a coach's point of view but from a fitness trainer/physical therapy point of view. So your traditional scout will never see things the same way as me most likely but for me the body never lies and I think that is why I am usually right. I am not perfect by any means but I think I am pretty accurate.
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I don't feel the need to do breakdowns for you anymore because we are too far apart on terminology and what we value.
To be clear you weren't doing the breakdowns for me, lol. And I wasn't asking you to do any breakdowns. YOU chose to comment on the video gifs I posted in response to another poster's comment that Watson had a noodle arm. -- For the record I don't think he has a noodle arm because he can throw it far when he wants to BUT to me he throws with low velocity. I mean sometimes he does have velocity on the ball but beyond 20 yards it seems to slow down a good bit and lag behind the players more often than not. --
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I see no need to spend hours making a post just to have you say you can't see anything I am explaining when I explain things as simple as I can and others understand me just fine.
Let's not get it confused. I completely understand what you are saying I just don't agree. And since you mention others it seems from the past replies that others disagree also. -- It's always the same disagreements from the same people and nothing I say will ever change their minds because it's a philosophical difference in how we all look at QBs. I mean I have literally made HUNDREDS of posts on it now so I think it's safe to say nothing I say will change their minds at this point beyond the ones who have already learned from cross referencing what I have said with their own person experiences over the years.
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I haven't missed on any QB i did an eval on in the past 5 seasons so I am going to stick with what works for me.
Good for you. If true that's a freakin amazing hit rate. And no one is asking you to change what works for you. Just have a discussion. I posted my draft rankings last year so its verifiable i didn't get everyone right no one does (other then you apparently). But i did have Prescott as my top QB back when everyone was killing him. -- I post my opinions on the QBs each year. I thought Dak would do ok if he had time to develop and didn't mind if we drafted him. Nothing he was doing in college made you think he would have that good a year. He got very lucky and had a top tier team to play on. To be honest I think his numbers were more a team factor than his personal factor. I think Dak will get a LOT better though. --
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BTW i know this text doesn't show tone of voice and things get taken the wrong way so let me be clear. I don't mean any disrespect. I am not angry, upset, or offended. I'm just chill and its all good. It's perfectly fine if people don't share my opinions or evaluations. We won't know who is right for several years either way.
You don't need to qualify your tone one way or the other. I didn't azzume anything disrespectful from your posts. -- That's cool I just wanted to say it so it was known since these forums can get heated at times. --
Draft evaluation is something I plan to do more of in the future whether on-line or radio/podcast. So i try be as accurate and as clear as I can when discussing draft prospects. I don't expect everyone to agree on sports internet message board. But on the whole I'm easy breezy no disrespect intended from me either just disagreement.
-- I think it's great that you're doing something you love to do. I certainly learned more about doing the time stamping way of doing it from you so I thought that was cool of you =) I'm too lazy or tired much of the time do those full play by play evals. I think I mentioned that before ^^
If we don't take him at 12 ... it sounds like he may be gone before it get to us ... were going to have to trade up to get him .. and it may be a decent jump ...
Mahomes sounds like a perfect fit for a team with a Rivers, Bree's or Manning type on the team ... he sounds like a 2 or 3 year project as he needs to learn new mechanics and how to read D's ... hes even more raw than guys coming from the spread are ....
Very interesting draft ... it always is with the qb's ... but this year is special ...
It is. It also tells me not to overthink things. If a QB doesn't stand out from the others, you are left trying to draft the guy who can develop in to a good QB. In a deep draft class with lots of solid NFL prospects, I think it best to just make sure we end up with 5 really good players who can step in and help us win.
We may not be able to win championships with our current QB's but with a better team, we can win with them.
I think we need to start winning some games. You can't wish a game changing QB in to the fold. They have to be there.
I agree that u can't wish a QB into the fold ... thats also the rub ... thats why every year there reached for big time ... the one question no one has answered for me ... where were Goff/Wentz rated on the overall boards ... i bet it wasn't much if any higher than Trib or Watson ...
QB's always have gone WAY TO EARLY ... and its getting harder and harder to judge them ...
Bill Walsh the best QB evaluator of all time IMO ... even though its based on a sample size of only 3 .... *LOL* ...
Anyhow .... Bill Walsh got to watch a QB start for 2 years minimum .. and 2 year starters were the exception not the rule ..... Walsh got to watch guys for 3/4 years for the most part ...
Walsh also got to watch guys play in NFL drop back based offenses ....
Today ... coaches have NEITHER OF THESE LUXURIES ....
Its so much harder to judge these days ....
And even when u hit .. then things need to be built around them ... if not, there in deep trouble ... look at Luck ... i think hes got mad skills .. but they haven't build diddly around him ... he's got NO OL ... its mind boggling to me how there OL is so inept year after year ...
Dang ... they draft as bad as we have in the past ... *L* ... what the hell do they draft ... they've got TY Hilton and a TE whose OK ... they have Moncrief ... was he a draft pick or FA? .. gore ... not much on D ... damm ... they got a new GM this year ... *LOL* ...
At some point u need to roll the dice ... one thing we know for sure ...
The more games you win ... the further down the draft board u go ... the further from the top you pick the riskier the qb you take is ...
Catch 22 Mr. Peen ...
Its just TOUGH ... thats why so few teams have good QB's anymore ... crap were going on what ... year 18 or so without one ... MIND BOGGLING ... you'd think that was statistically impossible ... *LOL* ...
Yes, I watched that vid and many others too on my own. It only reinforced what I saw.
Originally Posted By: edromeo
I was only asking because its been up there for awhile and you said you were going to take a look at it. I was just curious about your thoughts on Matt Waldman's view since he was breaking down some of the exact same play we discussed. It sure didn't seem like he agreed with your take to reinforce what you say.
Originally Posted By: Razorthorns
Can you send me a link to it? I admit I forgot about it. I've never heard of the guy before but then I don't listen to what many of the guys on broadcast have to say
So...in one post you not only claim to have watched the youtube vid on Watson you claim it reinforced your view. Now you are asking me for a link? And btw Waldman isn't a broadcaster.
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I see no need to spend hours making a post just to have you say you can't see anything I am explaining when I explain things as simple as I can and others understand me just fine.
Let's not get it confused. I completely understand what you are saying I just don't agree. And since you mention others it seems from the past replies that others disagree also. -- It's always the same disagreements from the same people and nothing I say will ever change their minds
Look at the exchange above. YOU are the one the mentioned that other posters understoond you and implied that they agreed with you. All I did was point out the fact that in the case of this discussion about Watson's arm strength in the vid gifs I posted that they do not agree with you. So again, pointing out a claim that you made was incorrect.
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I haven't missed on any QB i did an eval on in the past 5 seasons so I am going to stick with what works for me.
Good for you. If true that's a freakin amazing hit rate. And no one is asking you to change what works for you. Just have a discussion. I posted my draft rankings last year so its verifiable i didn't get everyone right no one does (other then you apparently). But i did have Prescott as my top QB back when everyone was killing him. -- I post my opinions on the QBs each year. I thought Dak would do ok if he had time to develop and didn't mind if we drafted him. Nothing he was doing in college made you think he would have that good a year.
Posting opinions isn't the same as posting rankings. Ranking can clearly be referenced cut and dry with out any post facto rhetoric explaining away comments made. Take the case of Dak Prescott. You said you haven't missed in 5? years? Well it seems pretty clear that not only did you miss on Dak you're trying to rationalize it by trying to take credit away from him, lol.
I was asking for the link because I thought I might go back again and get the energy to go into more detail about it later this week. No offense but just because you find someone who has a different opinion than me doesn't prove me wrong. At THIS point in time all anyone has is OPINIONS. The only thing that will PROVE me wrong is Watson's performance in the NFL. Honestly the kid is a super nice person so I hope he does. I have zero against him as a person. He just doesn't have a great skill set when it comes to ball placement skills and I have yet to see a college QB have great success moving up from college unless they already have the ability to put the ball in a great place to catch it. Watson is all over the place with his ball placement so I don't think he will succeed. I am rooting for him to prove me wrong or get the help he needs to improve.
Different posters with different opinions doesn't prove me wrong. It just means people have different opinions. you haven't shown me anything that proves he has high ball velocity in his throws and the only time its' been measured confirmed my opinion instead of going against it. But hey the combine numbers are just fake numbers right?
So let me get this right ... because I do a full eval on a QB including predictions on how they will do in the NFL in various situations that is less meaningful that saying so and so is #1, #2, etc through random guessing? That's is nonsense. A better QB can go to a crappy team and be held back by what he is playing with. A mediocre QB can go to a great team and excel because of what he is working with too.
I had said Dak would be a good QB if he went to the right team so how exactly was I wrong about him. I mean you honestly think he puts up great numbers with the Browns instead of Dallas? Your reaching a little too hard man.
I was asking for the link because I thought I might go back again and get the energy to go into more detail about it later this week.
You're all over the place. You say you watched and that it confirmed your view. Then you ask for the link to go back and watch it again, lol. The vid is in the same place its always been. In the Watson film thread.
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No offense but just because you find someone who has a different opinion than me doesn't prove me wrong.
You don't have to keep saying no offense and no disrespect...its disingenuous.
And where did I say his opinion proves you wrong? I just asked you if you watched. You're the one waffling on whether not you watched it and claimed it reinforced your view.
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He just doesn't have a great skill set when it comes to ball placement skills and I have yet to see a college QB have great success moving up from college unless they already have the ability to put the ball in a great place to catch it. Watson is all over the place with his ball placement so I don't think he will succeed.
Lol, you claim Watson lacks ball placement then champion Mahomes? Lol. Based on our conversations about the plays I would say that your biased based on your assessment of Watson's ball placement because you fault his ball placement even when its correct.
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Different posters with different opinions doesn't prove me wrong.
Dude. YOU were the one that brought up other posters agreeing with you. YOU did that. All I did was point out that the posters were not agreeing with you. I don't care one way or another if they agree with you or not. I was responded to your factually incorrect statement that posters agreed with you.
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...its' been measured confirmed my opinion instead of going against it. But hey the combine numbers are just fake numbers right?
Lol, nope they re not fake numbers. But they're not accurate representation of a prospects true velocity.
Honest question do you even know how the combine numbers are measured? Lol, NFL teams are not going to rely on such obviously inaccurate method to measure an evaluation metric that is important to their process.
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So let me get this right ... because I do a full eval on a QB including predictions
Fyi a prediction is not an evaluation its a guess.
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on how they will do in the NFL in various situations that is less meaningful that saying so and so is #1, #2, etc through random guessing?
I have no idea how random guessing fits in to your obviously rhetorical question so I can't answer it.
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Your reaching a little too hard man.
Lol, you create a bunch of strawmen arguments and rhetorical questions and claim I'm reaching? Suuurrreeee.
You can have the last word on this. I don't have the stamina when there's actual football to discuss.
I don't like the idea of drafting a guy to play quarterback (especially in the first few rounds) if the consensus is that you basically have to "reprogram" how he plays the position...
When you start changing throwing motions, or focusing on footwork or mechanics, first off, you're losing so much time. In today's NFL, no one has the time to wait on QBs anymore.
And then I feel like, what's the chance that after you "fix" him, that he's either not as "good" as he was before, or that you end up finding out that he's just not actually good..
Where QBs get drafted vs. where they probably should go as it relates to that class' talent pool is almost maddening.
A guy like Mahomes, who seems to need at least two whole seasons to learn, should never be considered with a 1st round pick. Shouldn't even be a thought... regardless of what he ends up becoming.
I hate drafting QBs.
This message has been sponsored by the "Just get Garopollo" foundation
Doesn't Fahey also believe Kizer is the best of the class?
Here's an article that looks at the things Fahey criticizes (like touch, looking off defenders, and throwing into tight windows) from a different perspective with gifs to illustrate as well. He shows both the positive and negative aspects of his game, but comes away with an entirely different conclusion.
Doesn't Fahey also believe Kizer is the best of the class?
Here's an article that looks at the things Fahey criticizes (like touch, looking off defenders, and throwing into tight windows) from a different perspective with gifs to illustrate as well. He shows both the positive and negative aspects of his game, but comes away with an entirely different conclusion.
Doesn't Fahey also believe Kizer is the best of the class?
Here's an article that looks at the things Fahey criticizes (like touch, looking off defenders, and throwing into tight windows) from a different perspective with gifs to illustrate as well. He shows both the positive and negative aspects of his game, but comes away with an entirely different conclusion.
Whatever dude. You're obviously just out to argue for the sake of arguing. You take my sincerity and twist it into some twisted double talk of your own imagining. I'm done flailing at windmills by thinking you could have a discussion when you're just looking for a target to browbeat because they don't fall in line with what you want them to think. I hope Watson does well and meets your expectations of him with the way you've stuck your neck out for him.
Whatever dude. You're obviously just out to argue for the sake of arguing. You take my sincerity and twist it into some twisted double talk of your own imagining. I'm done flailing at windmills by thinking you could have a discussion when you're just looking for a target to browbeat because they don't fall in line with what you want them to think. I hope Watson does well and meets your expectations of him with the way you've stuck your neck out for him.
The problem is that you come are here praising a QB and showing very litle evidence of it(film) and downgrading a QB where there is plenty of film that proves you wrong.
Not even considering that Watson was the most successfull QB against teams that most resemble the NFL.
Just take a look at the Bama games, where he is playing against the best D in college, and I would say a NFL talent D. Or go and look at the Ohio games, where is he playing against a D which has several top 10 DB's.
In this games you can see the good and the bad about Deshaun. IMHO the good far exceeds the Bad, but I can understand why some have reservations about him, specially if you want a pure pocket passer.
What I don't understand is people praising Trubisky and at the same time downgraing Watson, when they are very simmilar with the plus that Watson has the intangibles and the resume to back it up.
Whatever dude. You're obviously just out to argue for the sake of arguing. You take my sincerity and twist it into some twisted double talk of your own imagining. I'm done flailing at windmills by thinking you could have a discussion when you're just looking for a target to browbeat because they don't fall in line with what you want them to think. I hope Watson does well and meets your expectations of him with the way you've stuck your neck out for him.
The problem is that you come are here praising a QB and showing very litle evidence of it(film) and downgrading a QB where there is plenty of film that proves you wrong.
Not even considering that Watson was the most successfull QB against teams that most resemble the NFL.
Just take a look at the Bama games, where he is playing against the best D in college, and I would say a NFL talent D. Or go and look at the Ohio games, where is he playing against a D which has several top 10 DB's.
In this games you can see the good and the bad about Deshaun. IMHO the good far exceeds the Bad, but I can understand why some have reservations about him, specially if you want a pure pocket passer.
What I don't understand is people praising Trubisky and at the same time downgraing Watson, when they are very simmilar with the plus that Watson has the intangibles and the resume to back it up.
Jimmy has just as much college footage for anyone who cares to watch it. He also has some NFL footage that shows him doing in the NFL what he did in college.
People praise Trub over watson because of arm, accuracy, and most importantly ball placement. Trub also didn't show a constant need for his WRs to bail him out.
This idea that JG is a bad QB because he couldn't kick the GOAT to the curb and win the starting job is just flat out stupid. There is not a SINGLE QB in the entire league that would start in NE over Tom. Not ONE.
JG didn't go in the first round because Haslem was a bone head. Many team passed on him because he came from a weaker division but to me that is the LEAST important thing to worry about. If the player has the right skills that is the most important thing of all.
No, but many posters keep using "he's a backup quarterback" as a reason not to trade for him. They also compare him to other quarterbacks who have "backed up Brady and failed."
No, but many posters keep using "he's a backup quarterback" as a reason not to trade for him. They also compare him to other quarterbacks who have "backed up Brady and failed."
Historically, Brady's backups have failed as starters elsewhere. This, however, should be no reason to believe that JG would also fail...
No, but many posters keep using "he's a backup quarterback" as a reason not to trade for him. They also compare him to other quarterbacks who have "backed up Brady and failed."
Historically, Brady's backups have failed as starters elsewhere. This, however, should be no reason to believe that JG would also fail...
Yeah, well if you insist on muddying this whole debate with logic and reason ...
No, but many posters keep using "he's a backup quarterback" as a reason not to trade for him. They also compare him to other quarterbacks who have "backed up Brady and failed."
Historically, Brady's backups have failed as starters elsewhere. This, however, should be no reason to believe that JG would also fail...
Yeah, well if you insist on muddying this whole debate with logic and reason ...
Who, me? Logical. reasonable? Better you run that by Vers first ...
exactly 
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