If Josh Gordon is suspended all season and Nate Burleson misses time with broken arm that will not heal. What are the best options remaining?
Currently the Browns have; Greg Little - Talented but has yet to show the ability to be a go to receiver. Travis Benjamin - Fast, good punt returner but not a starting receiver. Coming off injury. Josh Cooper - Good hands but more of a possesion type receiver. Tori Gurley - Big receiver with ability but so far has yet to crack the 53 man roster. Andrew Hawkins - More of a slot receiver than a starter. Charles Johnson - ????? Possible if he lives up to the hype. Coming off injury. Vernon Conner - WHO????
Best available free agents still available
Santonio Holmes Miles Austin Danario Alexander Robert Meachem Earl Bennett Austin Collie Josh Morgan
Best receivers left in the draft
Brandon Coleman 6'6 225 lbs Rutgers Jared Abbrederis 6'1 195 ilb Wisconsin Cody Hoffman 6'3 220 lbs BYU L'Damein Washington 6'3 195 Missouri Martivious Bryant 6'3 210 lbs Clemson Bruce Ellington 5'9 195 lbs South Carolina Devin Street 6'7 200 lbs Pittisburg Corey Brown 5'11 175 lbs Ohio State
I think I would make a play for Miles Austin to try to bring him in on a 1 year contract. Then taregt Brandon Coleman tomorrow in the 4th round. Then try to trade back up to get Bruce Ellington with the last draft pick.
That would leave a receiving core of
Miles Austin Greg Little / Charles Johnson Andrew Hawkins Brandon Coleman Bruce Ellington Travis Benjamin
Another option is with all of the wide receivers taken in this years draft there should be some interesting names cut.
I am guessing we are going to see a lot of 21 personnel on offense. Tate, Pressley/Ogbonnaya, Dray, with Hawkins and Cameron at receiver (I know Cameron is technically a tight end).
My guess is they might wait to see who's a cap casualty in June or a camp casualty in August. WR's always seem to be the first position let go for some reason.
Greg little at #1 Hawkins at #2 Two TE sets often. I formation almost every down Run the ball virtually every down
Play great defense, run the ball and EAT clock. Get one of the QB's(doesn't really matter who anymore) up under center and have him wait until the clock is down to 2 seconds EVERY play then hike the ball and hand it off. Eat every single second possible off the clock and pound the rock. Old school. Time for ground and pound.
I'm REALLY hoping that we can move up into the 4th round and grab either Jared Abbrederis or Bruce Ellington.
I'm now also on the Miles Austin band wagon. When he's healthy he's a pretty good possession receiver that can play the outside or the slot. I would really like us to try and bring him in.
If we ignore the WR position and go with who we have now, than we'll no doubt kick ourselves come mid-season when nobody can get open or hold onto passes.
Hawkins and Benjamin are unproven and injury prone.
Burleson is old and Greg Little is garbage.
Like most years our WR core needs help, and like most years our front office has ignored it.
Brian and Johnny are going to STRUGGLE throwing the ball with Gordon suspended.
I think Ellington would be a steal. I very much want him and wanted him before this news of Gordon's decision to accurately represent the Cleveland Clowns moniker.
I wonder, when we had Hoyer at qb didn't Little catch almost every ball, even the tough ones, when Hoyer played? Also Cameron caught a lot more balls with Hoyer at qb. Maybe, just maybe Little would be better with a better qb than weeden or anyone we had other than Hoyer?
I still have hopes for Little. To date, he has underperformed, but the talent is there plus his blocking ability. Maybe he will finally step up to the plate...
We'll definitely get a WR in the draft somewhere...possibly a project if 6th 7th round.
If we need to dip into the FA pool but most of those guys are complimentary bananas not #1 types that you all talk about. For me they are X n Y WRs - Little is a big part of this. It would be Monster if he could put his act together he has all the talent.
Don't forget Benjamin who was coming into his own before the injury. Burleson should be ok by September he doesn't need much to get into the swing of things. Just remember this. Gordon had people talking about the Browns. But he set an NFL record of back to back 200 yard games and guess what - We Lost Both games. I'm telling you getting our run game going will do more for our WRs then having Gordon here!
Forget about Gordon cause once he comes back in 2015 we are going to trade him...possibly we get a one year extension for the lost season and then we trade him! Either way that means another first round pick possibly in 2016 giving us 2 first rounders 3 years in a row...more important than having a WR that gets great stats which equals to -0- wins!!!
So right now we got - Little, Burleson, Hawkins and Benjamin as a decent 4 WR corp and the how good how bad definitely will be riding on Little's shoulders. One of the backups got to seize the opportunity to step up and I'm sure we'll get a WR in the 4th or 5th round of the draft. But even if we don't we'll bring in about 5 UDFA WR...there are so many even in D2 that can progress into decent WRs....Luxury stud WR...Forget about it...we don't need no stinkin Luxury WR...lets just get 5 reliable WRs who have good hands and run good routes and we will be fine! Lets commit to the run and open this up with a horizontal stretch and Benjamin can definitely stretch the Vertical - Little isn't a slouch in that department either!
Quote: Forget about Gordon cause once he comes back in 2015 we are going to trade him...possibly we get a one year extension for the lost season and then we trade him! Either way that means another first round pick possibly in 2016 giving us 2 first rounders 3 years in a row...
Am I misreading you, or are you insinuating that we could get a first round pick for Gordon?
Quote: If Josh Gordon is suspended all season and Nate Burleson misses time with broken arm that will not heal. What are the best options remaining?
Currently the Browns have; Greg Little - Talented but has yet to show the ability to be a go to receiver. Travis Benjamin - Fast, good punt returner but not a starting receiver. Coming off injury. Josh Cooper - Good hands but more of a possesion type receiver. Tori Gurley - Big receiver with ability but so far has yet to crack the 53 man roster. Andrew Hawkins - More of a slot receiver than a starter. Charles Johnson - ????? Possible if he lives up to the hype. Coming off injury. Vernon Conner - WHO????
Best available free agents still available
Santonio Holmes Miles Austin Danario Alexander Robert Meachem Earl Bennett Austin Collie Josh Morgan
Best receivers left in the draft
Brandon Coleman 6'6 225 lbs Rutgers Jared Abbrederis 6'1 195 ilb Wisconsin Cody Hoffman 6'3 220 lbs BYU L'Damein Washington 6'3 195 Missouri Martivious Bryant 6'3 210 lbs Clemson Bruce Ellington 5'9 195 lbs South Carolina Devin Street 6'7 200 lbs Pittisburg Corey Brown 5'11 175 lbs Ohio State
I think I would make a play for Miles Austin to try to bring him in on a 1 year contract. Then taregt Brandon Coleman tomorrow in the 4th round. Then try to trade back up to get Bruce Ellington with the last draft pick.
That would leave a receiving core of
Miles Austin Greg Little / Charles Johnson Andrew Hawkins Brandon Coleman Bruce Ellington Travis Benjamin
Another option is with all of the wide receivers taken in this years draft there should be some interesting names cut.
Quote: I'm wondering if the Browns think, know or believe that Gordon isn't guilty and thus aren't reacting as you might suspect?
Do you honestly believe that?
Yes I do or have been wondering the same. The one thing striking me is how Gordon has been on all the sports shows, (First Take Friday morning) Tweets right after the JFB pick... I personally would have been in a hole if I knew I was probably going to be suspended. Why would I be talking about how excited I was to have JFB being drafted if I knew I wasn't going to be there. So yes I'm wondering if something strange might be going on behind the scenes
Also, not sure if it really matters but what if Gordon was hanging out with the wrong people.. Wasn't really smoking the weed himself but was around it and got a contact buzz? I never smoked in my life but in my teens had many friends that did. I was always curious if I would've failed a test if one had been given.... Many times rode around in cars with people smoking....
Great WR's can come out of nowhere and still be found. Remember Gordon was taken in the Supplemental and Stevie Johnson was taken in the 7th. I'm not going into panic mode.
Quote: The one thing striking me is how Gordon has been on all the sports shows, (First Take Friday morning) Tweets right after the JFB pick... I personally would have been in a hole if I knew I was probably going to be suspended. Why would I be talking about how excited I was to have JFB being drafted if I knew I wasn't going to be there
I don't know why people are assuming that Josh Gordon would operate with a modicum of common sense.
Quote:
Also, not sure if it really matters but what if Gordon was hanging out with the wrong people.. Wasn't really smoking the weed himself but was around it and got a contact buzz? I never smoked in my life but in my teens had many friends that did. I was always curious if I would've failed a test if one had been given.... Many times rode around in cars with people smoking....
Quote: Great WR's can come out of nowhere and still be found. Remember Gordon was taken in the Supplemental and Stevie Johnson was taken in the 7th. I'm not going into panic mode.
This is true but Gordon was not in the REAL draft because he was already a proven knucklehead.
Greg Little and the words "number one" is a very, very scary combination to me. I don't like it, not a bit...
I honestly don't see why we haven't drafted a WR. Especially factoring their moves upward to acquire a RB and and etc. If the staff is really sticking to their board, I can't believe they have WR valued so low. Do they got a gem here in the later rounds in mind or something?
Quote: Come on dawg...let go a little - you can stop the huffing and puffing...lol
Who's huffing and puffing?
"Our opponents D," according to eotab in the Terrance West thread 18 minutes before he replied to you here. "Huffing and puffing" is eotab's mantra for today.
Quote: "Greg Little - Talented but has yet to show the ability to be a go to receiver."
Talented?!? Little?
Little is very physically talented, and is a very hard worker. he is also a very good, and willing, blocker down the field.
Unfortunately, he hasn't put it together yet. His hands hold him back badly. Maybe he manages to get back to where he was the 2nd half of the season 2 years ago, where he started catching everything in sight.
I'm not going to hold my breath, but I hope he can. His strength is where he can see and watch the ball pretty much the whole way to his hands ..... so the over the shoulder stuff isn't the best option for Little.
One thing about Little ....... at least he hasn't thrown his career away because he had to go smoke pot.
I wish we had a +1 button. Don't know how many times I've wanted to +1 a post. I agree. Catching the ball could always be learned. He could wind up being a true #1
All I can say is that he did catch the ball well for half a season. Hopefully he gets back to that.
Also, I think that a lot of veteran WRs are going to get chopped in the weeks to come as rookies start settling in. There are what v.... 18 rookie WRs who are heading to rosters around the league? Some veterans are going to be let go as a result ..... and soem may be because of salary as much as anything else.
This is false. You can try to teach the proper technique, but if you have bad hands, you will most likely always has bad hands.
Anyone else expecting Little to be a legit #1 WR need a reality check. He struggles to create separation and has horrible hands. And he's a headcase on the field. He might have a good stretch of 3-4 games, but he'll never be consistent.
We're back to the days of the likes of Massaquoi and Robeiski being our WRs. At least we have a concussion prone Cameron now...
I think that you can teach a player to better catch the ball. Little managed to catch the ball cleanly the 2nd half of the 2012 season, after meeting with Alonzo Mourning. That shows that the ability is there .... he just has to access it habitually.
I think Little needs a psychologist vs more skill development. Those drops seem like more of a mental/confidence issue than a physical one. He does the work, he gets himself into the right position, he gets his hands set, he doesn't have any unusual jerks or hops. It's just a mental thing like golfers, pitchers, etc. go through. I really like Little and his physical attributes, and I hope he can work through this.
j/c Here's my take on the situation for what its worth. I'm impressed by the FO's discipline to remain true to their draft plan. No panic, no impulsive over reaction. I would expect nothing less from professional football men. Obviously, Haslam is on board for the way that they are proceeding. I can't imagine that he is not fully informed about this "crisis" and the way Farmer and Pettine have decided to handle it.
I have no idea of Gordon's actual guilt or innocence. I am uncertain about what will be done with the two remaining picks. If no WR is taken then I believe they have some alternative in play that just isn't obvious to those of us not within the inner circle.
Overall I've liked the decisions made from free agency to the end of round 3. I remain confident that good football decisions will be made by the men in charge.
For those who prefer to freak out about it...feel free to indulge your panic.
With the Buffalo trade, the Browns have 9 picks in the 2015 draft, 6 picks in the first 4 rounds, so they have the capital to make a trade for a starting quality WR like the Niners did for Stevie Johnson. A 3rd rounder should do it, but even if its a 2nd rounder, I'd do it for a guy thats good enough to warrant that high price. Its not like we'll use the two 1st round picks to move up for Mariota or Winston, since we have Manziel. Unless we're planning to run the Wishbone offense, a trade seems necessary to me.
Gordon has not been suspened yet. He is appealing the failed test. If the Browns FO kenw about the failed test 2 weeks ago they may have had Gordon tested within the organization and feel that Gordon is right and will win his appeal.
That would be the reason the FO did not panic and are sticking to their board. I know us Browns fans always expect the worst we have been conditioned to that but I believe in innocent until proven guilty. Until Gordon is proven guilty I will be standing behind our go to wide receiver Josh Gordon.
Quote: Gordon has not been suspened yet. He is appealing the failed test. If the Browns FO kenw about the failed test 2 weeks ago they may have had Gordon tested within the organization and feel that Gordon is right and will win his appeal.
That would be the reason the FO did not panic and are sticking to their board. I know us Browns fans always expect the worst we have been conditioned to that but I believe in innocent until proven guilty. Until Gordon is proven guilty I will be standing behind our go to wide receiver Josh Gordon.
Quote: All I can say is that he did catch the ball well for half a season. Hopefully he gets back to that.
Also, I think that a lot of veteran WRs are going to get chopped in the weeks to come as rookies start settling in. There are what v.... 18 rookie WRs who are heading to rosters around the league? Some veterans are going to be let go as a result ..... and soem may be because of salary as much as anything else.
Correct, there are alot of Wideouts that will be available... I would even sign Santonio Holmes , what do e have to lose sign him to a 1 year deal...probably even be our #1 so I'm sure he would agree
Quote: "Greg Little - Talented but has yet to show the ability to be a go to receiver."
Talented?!? Little?
Yes!
Little IS talented. He has all the measurables to be a #1 receiver. What he doesn't have, or should I say hasn't had (yet) is the mental toughness to put it all together.
He'll make a jaw dropping, leaping catch in double coverage for a huge first down and then he'll drop two balls in a row when he is wide open that hit him right in the hands.
He hasn't been dependable at all...and I'm not here saying that he is going to do so...
HOWEVER,
If, and it's a very big IF he CAN put it all together...Greg Little can be a #1 in this league.
Not as fast as Josh Gordon but still has the speed to take the top off the defense and in a WCO like Shanahan's, has the ability to make big runs after the catch on 10-15 yard slants and bubble screens.
He's just not been able to put it all together mentally to where he can be depended on as a consistent #1, but he's shown flashes.
I surely hope the JG news light's a fire under his butt to where he says to himself, "it's now or never" because in all reality it is.
You have the physical gifts Greg, now gain that mental toughness that is needed to put it all together on a consistent basis. Find that motivation to 'want to be great'. Make a statement with your actions and by that I don't mean by taunting the defense and making the 'First Down' signal every time you get one. I mean by making plays and making catches on a consistent basis.
I think that Little just has to be used on routes where he can see the ball the whole way in. He struggles at trying to pick up the ball in flight. (like an over the shoulder catch .....He really seems to struggle with that kind of reception)
Quote: I'm wondering if the Browns think, know or believe that Gordon isn't guilty and thus aren't reacting as you might suspect?
Do you honestly believe that?
Yes I do or have been wondering the same. The one thing striking me is how Gordon has been on all the sports shows, (First Take Friday morning) Tweets right after the JFB pick... I personally would have been in a hole if I knew I was probably going to be suspended. Why would I be talking about how excited I was to have JFB being drafted if I knew I wasn't going to be there. So yes I'm wondering if something strange might be going on behind the scenes
Also, not sure if it really matters but what if Gordon was hanging out with the wrong people.. Wasn't really smoking the weed himself but was around it and got a contact buzz? I never smoked in my life but in my teens had many friends that did. I was always curious if I would've failed a test if one had been given.... Many times rode around in cars with people smoking....
It is possible but not probable. As it stands now, Gordon does NOT deserve the benefit of the doubt on this. He's been in trouble more than once because of it. He just got caught/screwed up once again. But this time he's in big trouble.
Quote: "Greg Little - Talented but has yet to show the ability to be a go to receiver."
Talented?!? Little?
Yes!
Little IS talented. He has all the measurables to be a #1 receiver. What he doesn't have, or should I say hasn't had (yet) is the mental toughness to put it all together.
He'll make a jaw dropping, leaping catch in double coverage for a huge first down and then he'll drop two balls in a row when he is wide open that hit him right in the hands.
He hasn't been dependable at all...and I'm not here saying that he is going to do so...
HOWEVER,
If, and it's a very big IF he CAN put it all together...Greg Little can be a #1 in this league.
Not as fast as Josh Gordon but still has the speed to take the top off the defense and in a WCO like Shanahan's, has the ability to make big runs after the catch on 10-15 yard slants and bubble screens.
He's just not been able to put it all together mentally to where he can be depended on as a consistent #1, but he's shown flashes.
I surely hope the JG news light's a fire under his butt to where he says to himself, "it's now or never" because in all reality it is.
You have the physical gifts Greg, now gain that mental toughness that is needed to put it all together on a consistent basis. Find that motivation to 'want to be great'. Make a statement with your actions and by that I don't mean by taunting the defense and making the 'First Down' signal every time you get one. I mean by making plays and making catches on a consistent basis.
Sorry, but I can't agree. I HOPE I'M WRONG, but I see him as another version (yet a lesser version) of Braylon Edwards.
BrayBE was was very talented. He just didn't have the work ethic or the hands of an elite guy. Little is a physically talented guy who works hard but also doesn't have great hands. Little has a shot at being a good WR in this league, but because BE wouldn't work he never did.
They both seemed to jump for catches when they didn't need to, trying to catch with their belly instead of their hands. I think its partly out of insecurity about their ability to catch it, and also a degree of self-protection from a big hit while your leg is planted in the turf. The good ones snatch the ball out of the air and turn up-field.
Quote: They both seemed to jump for catches when they didn't need to, trying to catch with their belly instead of their hands. I think its partly out of insecurity about their ability to catch it, and also a degree of self-protection from a big hit while your leg is planted in the turf. The good ones snatch the ball out of the air and turn up-field.
Yep. I remember during a game Winslow was actually showing BE what you just said. I thought to myself, "Shouldn't he know this already?!?"
Quote: Gordon has not been suspened yet. He is appealing the failed test. If the Browns FO kenw about the failed test 2 weeks ago they may have had Gordon tested within the organization and feel that Gordon is right and will win his appeal.
Having him tested now would be immaterial. He failed the test last winter.
JC Read somewhere, don't remember exactly where but the author claimed that Brandon Coleman could end up being a pretty good WR and thought he may be better than Kelvin Benjamin. I would also look at Martavis Bryant ad then add another vet.
Quote: Gordon has not been suspened yet. He is appealing the failed test. If the Browns FO kenw about the failed test 2 weeks ago they may have had Gordon tested within the organization and feel that Gordon is right and will win his appeal.
Having him tested now would be immaterial. He failed the test last winter.
That just gave me a nasty image in my head of Gordon saying, "I tested positive, what the heck" while firing up a blunt.
Quote: I'm REALLY hoping that we can move up into the 4th round and grab either Jared Abbrederis or Bruce Ellington.
I'm now also on the Miles Austin band wagon. When he's healthy he's a pretty good possession receiver that can play the outside or the slot. I would really like us to try and bring him in.
If we ignore the WR position and go with who we have now, than we'll no doubt kick ourselves come mid-season when nobody can get open or hold onto passes.
Hawkins and Benjamin are unproven and injury prone.
Burleson is old and Greg Little is garbage.
Like most years our WR core needs help, and like most years our front office has ignored it.
Brian and Johnny are going to STRUGGLE throwing the ball with Gordon suspended.
I suggest that it will be the TEs getting a larger share of the passes thrown to them.
Quote: With the Buffalo trade, the Browns have 9 picks in the 2015 draft, 6 picks in the first 4 rounds, so they have the capital to make a trade for a starting quality WR like the Niners did for Stevie Johnson. A 3rd rounder should do it, but even if its a 2nd rounder, I'd do it for a guy thats good enough to warrant that high price. Its not like we'll use the two 1st round picks to move up for Mariota or Winston, since we have Manziel. Unless we're planning to run the Wishbone offense, a trade seems necessary to me.
Good point Dave. We can trade, and there are some guys in FA we can sign.
Quote: Good point Dave. We can trade, and there are some guys in FA we can sign.
There are going to be some good Div 2 players that are good choices in the UDFA market - which will be a flurry immediately following the draft. It will be interesting to see who they've signed.
I like Torrance Allen from WT. Others have mentioned Jeff Janis, but he'll probably be gone before the Browns are able to draft him in the 7th or pick him up as an UDFA.
Maybe we go out and try to make a trade for a veteran wr. With teams trying to get younger, there may be some guys out there who we could get, even as a stopgap this year. At this point, anything's possible.
Quote: I don't see anyone that would be available in a trade that is worth a first round pick.
I wouldn't trade a 1st anyway. The most I would trade would be a 2nd rounder, and that's a stretch.... 3rd would be more like it. I have no idea who might be available.
If we are hunting a player, teams start to make them available.
I think I would work on the FA list if I did anything at all.
Quote: Considering that Stevie Johnson was had for a 4th, that would seem to be the price range I would look to pay.
Why? There is still the 7th round (if you want someone) to draft and there is also the UDFA market following the draft.
I am saying that if we look at a veteran, then a 4th is probably about the highest price I would want to pay. (Unless the Bengals offer us AJ Green, or something)
Quote: As for a trade, I would think both Roddy White and Michael Crabtree could be had for a 3rd rounder.
I haven't seen anything about either of those players being available.
I could see Crabtree being available. He's in his last year of his deal and the 9ers already have $124 committed to the cap next year. Crabtree, Iupati, and Kaepernick's contracts are all up after the season. They have Boldin, they traded for Steve Johnson, they have Quinton Patton and Brandon Lloyd, drafted Bruce Ellington.
Play it calm now, and wait and see what happens with Gordon (is it a year ban, or can it turn into 4-8 games).
Offer a 3rd round pick for a veteran. You will get a much better player for 2014 by trading a 3rd round pick for vet than you will from any drafted receiver outside the first round.
You can also easily pay vet with the money you were saving to resign Gordon, even if he somehow cleans up his act, his next contract price is going way down.
I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
He was arrested for weed, and a controlled substance as well.
Well, we are a year away from a playoff run anyway and with 2 first rounders next year we can have the best WR in the draft. Maybe that is why Farmer hasn't pushed the panic button.
Quote: I don't see anyone that would be available in a trade that is worth a first round pick.
I never suggested using a 1st in a trade. I only mentioned the two 1st round picks as a possible rationale for being possibly willing to part with a 2nd round pick in the event you have an opportunity to trade for a legit WR1.
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
You're correct. Sammy Watkins was arrested for drug possession in 2012. This is why I couldn't understand why so many in the Cleveland media were clamoring for us to draft him as a 'safety valve' for Josh Gordon.
I also agree that taking Mike Evans at #4 would have made the JG news much easier to digest, especially being that he was teammates with Johnny Football.
On the other hand, as I've stated before, rookie WR's rarely make a big impact in their first year. The WR route tree in the NFL is much more complex than those used in college.
The JG news may end up not hurting us that bad if Farmer is able to address the position effectively in the coming weeks and/or after cuts are made; and trust me, he WILL address the position and we WILL NOT go into the start of the NFL season with our current depth chart at WR.
There were a record number of WR's taken in this year's draft and there are quite a few very capable veteran WR's who could be cut due to save teams cap space. These same receivers, the likes of a Michael Crabtree for example, could also possibly be obtained by trading a mid round draft pick. Going that route could actually provide us more bang for our buck THIS YEAR as opposed to handing the #1 WR job over to a rookie, no matter who he is.
I know the JG news really stings right now, but give Farmer a chance to address the position. There may be a lot of happy faces when we obtain a good veteran WR for either Johnny or Brian to throw to instead of the unreliable Josh Gordon; and I say unreliable because we've come to find that we just can't depend on him to be on the field for us on Sundays because he has a substance abuse problem. That is why these types of players are often completely removed from team's draft boards. They do you know good and hurt your franchise in SO many ways - not only on the field but from a PR standpoint and so on.
Also, imagine how much worse this news would have stung if the Browns went into the season starting Johnny Manziel, we get off to a 4-1 start or something and then Gordon gets suspended for the rest of the year. At least with this happening now, we have time to create a solid plan to address the issue.
Quote: Would Miami cut Mike Wallace? I ask because of the WRs they drafted and Wallace drop issues.
Funny you mention Wallace because he was one of the guys that came to my mind. Maybe we can trade a late pick for him? I bet Miami wants to dump him.
You want to take on the $17.2 million in guaranteed money he's owed this season?
We have the space and no WRs, so yes.
Fair enough...I don't really see the point in paying $17.2 million (plus another $6.6 million guaranteed) for a one year rental of a streak WR in a rebuilding year.
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
You're correct. Sammy Watkins was arrested for drug possession in 2012. This is why I couldn't understand why so many in the Cleveland media were clamoring for us to draft him as a 'safety valve' for Josh Gordon.
Misdemeanor possession arrest =/= six failed drug tests
Quote: Would Miami cut Mike Wallace? I ask because of the WRs they drafted and Wallace drop issues.
Funny you mention Wallace because he was one of the guys that came to my mind. Maybe we can trade a late pick for him? I bet Miami wants to dump him.
You want to take on the $17.2 million in guaranteed money he's owed this season?
We have the space and no WRs, so yes.
Fair enough...I don't really see the point in paying $17.2 million (plus another $6.6 million guaranteed) for a one year rental of a streak WR in a rebuilding year.
I don't see it as a rebuilding year. This is where we differ.
Special Teams is of the highest priority this year!! Gotta have a short field to work with,and give the other team a long one.Have to manufacture runs and do some bunting folks!!
It's all about the QB....nothing less, nothing more. If QB position plays well, we will be competing for the division. If not, we will have two top ten picks next year, and whoever the new GM is will probably eff it up.
Hopefully Hoyer or Manziel can be a top 16 QB this year.
Quote: It's all about the QB.... ....and whoever the new GM is will probably eff it up.
Hopefully Hoyer or Manziel can be a top 16 QB this year.
Seems like you've already lost all faith in Haslam and/or Farmer.
New GM? Really?
Farmer just gave Haslam and most of the fans (at least the logical ones) the best Christmas present in May that we/he could possibly wish for in Johnny Manziel and without reaching while also gaining an additonal 1st rounder next year. That bought him at least a 3 year leash IMHO and either way, Farmer has shown a lot of poise throughout all of the drama of the highs and lows in less than a 24 hour period.
He's also show excellent poise prior to the draft...he had everyone from every NFL Team Exec., Mike Mayock to Chris Mortenson, and the entire Browns Backers Worldwide having no idea how he was going to approach and who he was going to take in this draft and that shows how great of a GM Farmer can be, and in only his first year as GM.
He will only grow from this experience and will continue to get better w/ time. Sky is the limit for Ray Farmer IMO.
There's no reason to hire a new GM or Head Coach. These guys didn't bat an eye in the face of extreme adversity and stuck to their board...got some pretty darn good UDFA WR's to compete and that's only the start in how they plan on addressing the position if you've followed Farmer at all this offseason.
That "new GM" statement that you made was pretty moronic.
Yeah, I think Farmer is entrenched for at least a few years.
Loved the pick up of the extra first.
Could've done without Manziel...so tired of these half-assed flier/project picks at QB when they tumble down the boards. Then we have to suffer through for two or three years before hitting the reset button. Frye, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden...once of these years, I hope the stars align and we're in position to grab The Guy.
See if you can wrap your head around this one without it exploding....I don't want Farmer fired. I thought he did a pretty decent job in the draft. Take all the time you need to think about that.
Dwayne Bowe is another guy who I think you could get for a mid-round draft pick in 2015.
Mike Wallace is almost certainly available - but you need to be able to renegotiate his contract to make it much more team friendly. I do think the signing bonus would still be the dolphins responsibility either way, right? He's a possible cap-casualty on July 1 as well, might get him for free.
People have mentioned Michael Crabtree, but I think the 49ers hold onto him, unless we offer something good. The 49ers are so close, in order to jettison one of their best WRs.
We could sign Miles Austin tomorrow, same with Santonio Holmes, both should come reasonably cheap.
Maybe an older guy on a rebuilding team? Like a Roddy White?
I think everyone should watch Ray Farmer's press conference after the conclusion of the draft last night. I believe that he made some pretty strong statements about his draft philosophy and why we didn't end up with a WR, as well as how we plan to address the position moving forward.
Transcript: Ray Farmer Post Draft Press Conference
On how good Browns WR Greg Little can be: “The young man’s talented. The question mark would then fall onto can he be consistent and do the things that he has physically demonstrated he can do at times. If he continues to do those things and add a level of consistency, the difference between being good and great is consistency. That’s really the difference. When a guy shows you he can do anything, he shows you he can jump up and make the one-handed catch, he shows you he can break a tackle, the question then is can he repeatedly do that over and over again. That’s the difference between being average or marginal, and good or great.”
The free agents (Austin, Holmes) leave me 'meh', we need Little to fulfill his ability. He's not a WR1, but he's the closest thing we have, if he can just overcome the drops. Little, Hawkins, Burleson wiill be our main WR rotation, with (I'm guessing) increased snaps for Josh Cooper. I like Cooper; all he does is get open and catch the ball. Next year in Round 1, we get the best available WR.
I'm ok with Little for one more year. I like his toughness and can get fired up. He can be a beast after the catch and will fight for the ball. I think/hope his drop phase is mostly behind him...and lets face it...no one was throwing the ball where it needed to be. This could be his big moment.
Also think Hawkins can be a great outlet guy. Very gritty, and quick.
just clicking. What are the best options left to addres the Wide Receiver?
At this point, I think when I see reporters harping on why another team didn't draft a player at a position of need, that the Browns should take the opportunity and see if there's a trade that makes sense. I think I heard the Lions didn't address DB, and the Panthers didn't address OT, so at this point, I'd see if there's a player for player trade that just makes too much sense, a win, win, deal.
When thinking about where the team finds itself with all of the uncertainty around Gordon, I have to ask myself and you, fellow Brown's fans, what does Charles Johnson offer us? The team surely can't be as dismissive about him as I've heard from poster's when his name has been brought up before. Granted he's an unknown quantity but the Packers, who know wide receiver talent were reportedly upset when we claimed him last year. 6'2", 215 40 time in the 4.3 neighborhood. He deserves as much consideration as any UDFA that we are bringing in. What looked like a blunder when his knee didn't check out and we were "stuck" with him might turn into something.
Also, keep in mind there was virtually no buzz about Gordon before we took him.
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
He was arrested for weed, and a controlled substance as well.
By that you mean Sammy Watkins, right? I've yet to hear of Mike Evans ever being arrested.
Just wanted clarification on that because it would be news to me.
Quote: I have said this before in a Free Agency thread, but I generally like the idea of the Browns making a play for someone like Miles Austin. I know he's been battling injuries in recent years, but when healthy Miles can contribute to an offense. I just hope we do something to address the WR position at some point because I don't like any of the guys we have on our depth chart minus Gordon.
It would have been so awesome if we would of picked Evans at # 4. This whole Josh Gordon debacle would have hurt so much less. (I would have said Watkins, but I think he got into trouble with weed too, no?)
He was arrested for weed, and a controlled substance as well.
By that you mean Sammy Watkins, right? I've yet to hear of Mike Evans ever being arrested.
Just wanted clarification on that because it would be news to me.
Yes, Watkins. He was arrested in 2012 for possession of pot and a controlled substance. Pot possession is one thing, but pot plus a controlled substance is bad news. Hopefully it was a one time thing, but as we have found out with Gordon. you can't be too careful with this stuff.
Quote: I just find it amusing that so many people think you can teach a receiver "soft hands".
I also think those advocating Little as a #1 receiver are hanging out with Gordon sharing a post draft day bowl!
the guy can do it. that one game he caught everything thrown his way. hey I am not a little fan but I am not ready to cut him yet. maybe something will click.
Quote: I don't think that you can teach "soft hands", but I do think that a receiver can improve catching with his hands.
Not at this point.
You don't think these guys have had good coaching up to this point? You somehow think these guys have become world class receivers and haven't been coached to catch a ball??
You learn to catch a ball when you are 5-6-7. There may be some refinements, but by the time the guy is drafted, he has been taught everything there is to be taught.
It's not like HS coaches and college coaches don't understand how to teach that......it's one of the basics.
Quote: I don't think that you can teach "soft hands", but I do think that a receiver can improve catching with his hands.
Not at this point.
You don't think these guys have had good coaching up to this point? You somehow think these guys have become world class receivers and haven't been coached to catch a ball??
You learn to catch a ball when you are 5-6-7. There may be some refinements, but by the time the guy is drafted, he has been taught everything there is to be taught.
It's not like HS coaches and college coaches don't understand how to teach that......it's one of the basics.
Well stated.
I think with Little it's more of a mental thing because he has shown 'soft hands' before but then he shows 'stone hands' on the next couple of plays. I think he knows how to catch the ball the right way and with 'soft hands' but that it might be a confidence thing where it has become somewhat natural to him to revert back to poor fundamentals; trying to catch the ball with his gut or thinking too much about what he is going to do after the catch before actually catching the ball.
This also is questionable though because you can't really teach mental toughness. Nonetheless, the coaching staff can try to devise a plan to make him as mentally tough, confident, and fundamentality sound as possible.
They need to run him through as many drills as possible that teach him to keep his cool catching the ball in turmoil and teach him how to approach catching the ball and then turning upfield from a mental standpoint as opposed to a physical standpoint.
He's shown flashes. He just needs to put it all together.
Quote: I think with Little it's more of a mental thing because he has shown 'soft hands' before but then he shows 'stone hands' on the next couple of plays. I think he knows how to catch the ball the right way and with 'soft hands' but that it might be a confidence thing where it has become somewhat natural to him to revert back to poor fundamentals; trying to catch the ball with his gut or thinking too much about what he is going to do after the catch before actually catching the ball.
that's what happens when you play someone that isn't ready to play. he should have sat until he was ready. instead broke his confidence playing him too much and too soon.
for what. in my truck. my fault. that's what you get for thinking with wrong head lol. that was like 20 year ago. lmao. I was a kid like 50. young and cute lol.
The receiver position is a bit of an enigma. On the one hand losing Gordon is a huge problem. Huge. There’s no sugarcoating it.
But I always flash back to the season opener in 2006, when New Orleans visited Cleveland with two unknown receivers. Those unknowns went out and competed, and the Browns were embarrassed in their opener by a team led by Drew Brees that would go on to the playoffs.
Those two receivers turned out to be Marques Colston and Devery Henderson, guys who would play for the Saints for 17 seasons and catch 852 passes and score 83 touchdowns.
Prior to that game, they were (supposed) weak links. At season's end, they were in the playoffs.
The receiver position is a bit of an enigma. On the one hand losing Gordon is a huge problem. Huge. There’s no sugarcoating it.
But I always flash back to the season opener in 2006, when New Orleans visited Cleveland with two unknown receivers. Those unknowns went out and competed, and the Browns were embarrassed in their opener by a team led by Drew Brees that would go on to the playoffs.
Those two receivers turned out to be Marques Colston and Devery Henderson, guys who would play for the Saints for 17 seasons and catch 852 passes and score 83 touchdowns.
Prior to that game, they were (supposed) weak links. At season's end, they were in the playoffs.
Ray Farmer is confident he can put a sound receiving corps on the field for the Cleveland Browns this season, with or without Josh Gordon.
ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr. falls into step with the masses, though, saying the Browns needed a receiver before the news of Gordon’s possible suspension broke, and they really needed a receiver on the draft’s second or third day after "Outside the Lines" broke the news that Gordon would miss the 2014 season.
Kiper gave the Browns a B-minusInsider in his annual grades, crediting them for some picks but wondering about the pass-catcher. In the Kiper parlance, that’s a pretty good draft, with a minus. He summed it up by saying: “The Browns have potentially changed the face of their franchise, but (Johnny) Manziel could use somebody to throw the football to.”
Elsewhere ...
On SI.com, Greg Bedard had nothing but praise for the Browns' draft, writing: “Yes, it’s disappointing that Gordon had another lapse, but he’s just one of 53 and doesn’t play quarterback. It takes a team to win the NFL, and that’s the important work Farmer is doing.” Also on SI, Chris Burke and Doug Farrar felt better than Kiper, giving the Browns a B-plus and calling the draft’s first day one of the most exciting in franchise history.
At Yahoo! Sports, Rob Rang of The Sports Xchange was harsher, saying the decision not to draft a receiver was an “inexplicable ignoring” of the position. Grade: C-minus.
Noted harsh grader Pete Prisco of CBSSports.com agrees with Rang, saying the decision not to take a receiver drops the Browns' grade to a B-minus.
I interpreted Bedard’s high praise as an A, and I’ve devised a very clever way to figure the draft grades. Call it Pat Macalytics, something that would make sabermatricians proud. It involves a ... wait for it ... point system for each grade, A-plus through F.
Combine them all and the average grade for the Browns is a B.
Which I think is understated.
The Browns landed the top cornerback and quarterback on their board on Day 1.
They landed an offensive lineman and a running back they like a great deal on Day 2.
They landed a highly thought of cornerback on Day 3.
I’m not sure about a 230-pound inside linebacker, but they also landed a first- , fourth- and sixth-round pick in next year’s draft.
Yes, they traded out of picks, but they took guys they like, guys that make sense.
The decision not to take a receiver is ... interesting. There’s no arguing that Sammy Watkins and Manziel sounds better than Justin Gilbert and Manziel. But Gilbert, Manziel and 2015 first- and fourth-round picks is impossible to criticize.
The receiver position is a bit of an enigma. On the one hand losing Gordon is a huge problem. Huge. There’s no sugarcoating it. But I always flash back to the season opener in 2006, when New Orleans visited Cleveland with two unknown receivers. Those unknowns went out and competed, and the Browns were embarrassed in their opener by a team led by Drew Brees that would go on to the playoffs. Those two receivers turned out to be Marques Colston and Devery Henderson, guys who would play for the Saints for 17 seasons and catch 852 passes and score 83 touchdowns. Prior to that game, they were (supposed) weak links. At season's end, they were in the playoffs.
Not taking a receiver is head-scratching. Taking the guys a GM believes in and works months to find and rate is not.
I think the loss of Gordon is a serious blow (more on that later today), but I still give the Browns a very solid A-minus for the 2014 draft. __________________________________________________________
We had Gordon last season. Although he compiled an historical, epic, individual campaign, we won only 4 games. With Hoyer at QB we won two of those four games without Gordon. The QB matters a great deal.
Of course we could have followed the talking-heads insisted best course of action and drafted Sammy Watkins and maybe Gordon would not even have been missed this coming season. We could have won 4 games again.
So it's already been proven last season that an elite WR does not always add up to victories and that the absence of one does not necessarily mean losses.
I sat in FirstEnergy Stadium, Home of the Cleveland Browns and watched Josh Gordon compile 250 yards receiving with 2 TD's vs the Jacksonville Jaguars only to lose the game on a last minute TD on a pass to Jacksonville's Cecil freakin' Shorts who couldn't qualify to wash Josh Gordon's jock strap. Of those two WR's, who won that battle?
Will Gordon be missed? He sure will. But even with his stellar season it made little difference in compiling wins. As shown in Hoyer's two wins we didn't necessarily need Gordon to win games. What we needed was a QB who was neither slow-thinking like Weeden nor playing scared to make a play like Campbell. What I'm saying is that we need a quality QB a lot more than we need an elite WR.
This draft we got our QB. Will Manzel cut it in the NFL? We don't know that yet. But what we do know is that gone are the dumb/aging QB's and in their place are two guys in Hoyer and Manzel who make games fun to watch by virtue of their passionate, sense of urgency, mobile/play extending qualities and their will to win mentalities.
The season before last, 2012, I found myself watching the games not so much because I was excited that the Browns were playing but moreso because I'm a Browns fan and I will watch every game. I never expected to win but always had the highest of hopes that we'd pull it off. We seldom did.
Last season, in Hoyer's first game it was exciting to watch and in the end he orchestrated a last minute TD for the win. That set me up in my chair. I actually felt excited, though apprehensive, for the next game. Again the game was exciting to watch and we won again. Going into the Buffalo game I was so pumped up to watch the game it was hard to hold back as the clock ticked so slowly to kick-off time. I actually felt we could win again. In the end we did even with Weeden by virtue of the Bills losing their starting QB as well.
That was great. But rather than being excited for the next game after three straight wins I was more cautious wondering which Weeden would show up next week. He started out good and took a 17-7 half-time lead. But in the second half went completely flat as we never scored another point while our defense fell into another epic collapse and we lost 24-17. That was the first of three losses in a row.
Then we somehow won vs the Rats. But it went downhill from there with 7 consecutive losses.
The reason for the season: Bad QB and collapsing defenses.
So as I mentioned above, we drafted our QB and the difference between our starter and backup, regardless how that shakes out, compared to last season is night and day.
We also got a very good CB. He has the potential to become another Joe Haden. Some have said that Gilbert was not the best CB in the draft. That might be true. If not, he was the 2nd best.
But the Browns took the first CB off the board so they obviously had their pick of the litter. I'm guessing they took Gilbert because he had the specific qualities they wanted in their CB though perhaps lacking in some qualities that they were not concerned about for this system.
It might take some time for Gilbert to adjust to the NFL but at one point we should have 2 Joe Haden's on the field at the same time.
As well as Buster Skrine improved last season he still needed to be upgraded and we did that. It moves Skrine to the NB which is a position he should excel playing. We also added Whitner in FA so our defensive backfield should have become elevated to a high degree. Our coverage unit could potentially become near elite in a year or two.
Or we could of had Sammy Watkins to replace Josh Gordon.
Nearly everyone complained about our OL calling Lavauo a complete bum while having no confidence in Schwarts either. The FO must have had some of the same thoughts because they let Lavauo walk to the Redskins and we drafted the best ZBS OT/G in the draft at pick 35 in round 2.
Bitonio will likely start at one of the guard positions day one. Since he played LT in college so one he gets acclimated he can easily slide to RT if the need arises. Plus he can be a potential back-up to Joe Thomas should he get hurt or even his replacement after Joe is gone, (if he goes after his contract is up). Bitonio should become a 10 year starter possibly making a pro bowl or two in his career.
This gives us the ZBS guard we needed so badly. Our running game should improve exponentially. Last year we had no running game at all. This year the running game could very well become one of our greatest offensive strengths.
Or we could have had Marqise Lee to replace Josh Gordon.
In the 3rd round we took a LB I know nothing about but assume the FO has a specific use for him so I'll have to give them that.
But also in the 3rd round we took RB Terrance West who is perfectly suited to our system. We already have Tate, who many fear his injury history, so West should be a very useful back-up to Tate. With Tate, West and Baker along with the potential of Deon Lewis our stable of RB's far surpasses anything we had available last season.
As with Bitonio above, the addition of West should further help our running game become a strength in 2014.
Or we could have had some 3rd round WR to replace Josh Gordon.
To the thread topic of "What are our best options at WR" I'm going to have to defer to Ray Farmer in what he's saying which is that there are plenty of options left in UDFA, FA, future cuts or possible trades.
Will any of them be Josh Gordon II? Probably not. But then Josh Gordon I didn't exactly rack up the wins for us even though he had his historically epic season.
What the FO did in this draft was to accomplish 3 major upgrades. They got our Franchise QB, (IF and a big IF Manzel becomes that, with Hoyer in the meantime), built a potentially elite defensive backfield and took our running game from a horrible weakness to an offensive strength.
They did that by building the team while not worrying about replacing Josh Gordon.
At any round, had they reached in an effort to replace Gordon, one or two of the 3 major upgrades could not have happened. At least not to the degree that it appears they've been upgraded.
There are still options for WR. None of them will be Josh Gordon. But even Josh Gordon didn't do much for the win column.
Free agent wide receiver Santonio Holmes expected to take his time in looking for a new job, after he was cut by the Jets this offseason.
According to ProFootballTalk.com, Holmes is expected to make a decision on his next team once the draft is complete. With a deep receiver class, he wants to see where his best chance for playing time will be before he makes a decision.
I am sure someone could look this up, but I was wondering, how much of Josh Gordon's stats last season came in garbage time, when we were behind a a bunch and the other team wasn't trying as hard. I seem to recall him disappearing several times early on in games, only to come on late.
Now as for the draft, we went into the draft needing a qb, a wr (even before Gordon), a rb, an ilb, o-lineman and depth in the secondary/cb opposite Haden.
Other than the receiver, we hit on all of those. Even picked up some extra help with UDFA. Now the biggest question is...
is Josh Gordon suspended? He seemed surprised when asked about it, his agent has denied it and the Browns have yet to comment. Usually an agent the caliber of Drew Rosenhaus publically takes a "We will wait til the facts are all in stance." Time will tell. He may be successful on appeal, in whole or in part.
Of the wr out there currently as free agents, on Miles Austin seems worth it at all to me.
Why not? He likely wouldn't see a suspension until NEXT year
Just rotate suspensions between he and Gordon -- Problem solved.
Wow. I take back my defeatist comment on the other thread. That's brilliant.
The advantage would be, of course, that their contracts don't "age" while they are suspended for the year ..... so a 4 year deal could become 8, with each playing every other year.
At this point, luck and hope are our best options to address WR. Because after the draft is over, that's the only thing left.
I'm curious to see what might be available in this year's Supplemental Draft.
That's an interesting thought. We have an extra 4th (thanks Buffalo) and an extra 6th (thanks BallsNoMore). With all the receivers that were taken in the draft, a good one might be able to fly under the radar in the supplemental draft.
I did some reading on Holmes yesterday, and it appears that he suffered a Lis-Franc injury to his foot that is the worst kind. His career is probably over.
The receiver position is a bit of an enigma. On the one hand losing Gordon is a huge problem. Huge. There’s no sugarcoating it.
But I always flash back to the season opener in 2006, when New Orleans visited Cleveland with two unknown receivers. Those unknowns went out and competed, and the Browns were embarrassed in their opener by a team led by Drew Brees that would go on to the playoffs.
Those two receivers turned out to be Marques Colston and Devery Henderson, guys who would play for the Saints for 17 seasons and catch 852 passes and score 83 touchdowns.
Prior to that game, they were (supposed) weak links. At season's end, they were in the playoffs.
Unfortunately the Browns don't get to open against the Browns.
Now if , if every catcher on the Browns roster overshoots their past by a Million, and hits the freakin MOON, they still should seek help on the outside. The Jaguars just drafted 2 wideouts, I wonder if they hold on to Tanden Doss and Cecil Shorts.
With Cobb and Jordy due to be extended this year, Boykin really beginning to breakout and the Pack drafting 3 WR I could see Jordy available for the right price.
The Detroit Lions added Golden Tate from the defending Super Bowl champion Seattle Seahawks during free agency, and that was it for the team as far as adding another option opposite star wide receiver Calvin Johnson.
Detroit did add tight end Eric Ebron in the first-round of the draft, and now it appears that they could be planning another move that would shock the NFL world.
On Monday morning, a rumor was passed along from the Dan Patrick Show that says the Lions may be considering trading Calvin Johnson. Michael Ginnitt of Sportsrac passed along what he heard.
Spotrac @spotrac Follow Per @DpShow, #Lions may consider shopping WR Calvin Johnson; A $16M net cap loss in 2014, but just $416,000 in 2015 http://bit.ly/TMul1i
It would make sense for the Lions to look for some cap relief, but trading one of the best players your franchise has had in recent memory would be a stunning move.
The following is pure speculation, but with two first-round picks in 2015 and a lot of cap space, the Cleveland Browns would be an interesting trade partner for the Lions if they do end up looking to move Johnson from the Motor City.
It's very, very unlikely to happen from what I'm reading, but it just goes to show you that there WILL be teams looking to trade WR's after the record amount of them drafted this past weekend. It may take several weeks (or longer) for something to materialize, but I guarantee that Ray Farmer will add a dynamic threat to our WR Corps before the start of the season. He isn't stupid and he knows that the success of Brian Hoyer and/or Johnny Manziel require at least one dependable WR and right now, we really don't have that and we have draft picks that we can give up.
Quote: I would trade the entire 2015 draft for Calvin Johnson.
And I'm not kidding.
Me too.
No brainer.
I'm glad that you're not in charge then.
No way do I give up a draft with 2 firsts, fourths, and sixths ..... with one 1st likely to be a top 10, for any one player who doesn't play QB.
Offer me Andrew Luck and we'll talk. A receiver, even the best in the league? No way. He's had a pretty decent QB playing alongside him for years. How many games have the Lions won? He's a Hall of Fame player, and is only 28 ..... and I would give up a 1st+ ...... but not the whole draft.
We had a receiver who matched Johnson in every way last year and won 4 games. Until we are sure we have the QB right, I don't spend draft picks casually.
Quote: I would trade the entire 2015 draft for Calvin Johnson.
And I'm not kidding.
Me too.
No brainer.
I'm glad that you're not in charge then.
No way do I give up a draft with 2 firsts, fourths, and sixths ..... with one 1st likely to be a top 10, for any one player who doesn't play QB.
Offer me Andrew Luck and we'll talk. A receiver, even the best in the league? No way. He's had a pretty decent QB playing alongside him for years. How many games have the Lions won? He's a Hall of Fame player, and is only 28 ..... and I would give up a 1st+ ...... but not the whole draft.
We had a receiver who matched Johnson in every way last year and won 4 games. Until we are sure we have the QB right, I don't spend draft picks casually.
It's folks like these, who would give up their entire draft (including the additional picks acquired) for an aging receiver. Even if he's in his prime, I don't give that much up. For that kind of trade, it would have to be a multiple team trade where I would end up with Tom Brady, Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald.
If the front office is thinking like you are, there's a problem already.
I think that 95% of fans would agree that Luck is well on his way to franchise QB status. If I can get a guy who is that prototypical, and that far along in his development, I'd give up on the possibility that Manziel might also be a franchise guy.
Quote: I would trade the entire 2015 draft for Calvin Johnson.
And I'm not kidding.
I got two words for you, Mike and Ditka
Need I say more?
Ricky Williams wasn't a NFL superstar.
Megatron is.
What's your point? My point is simple, you NEVER give up an entire draft for one player. It's idiotic. Doesn't matter who the player is or who he may become. it's dumb
Quote: I would trade the entire 2015 draft for Calvin Johnson.
And I'm not kidding.
I got two words for you, Mike and Ditka
Need I say more?
Ricky Williams wasn't a NFL superstar.
Megatron is.
What's your point? My point is simple, you NEVER give up an entire draft for one player. It's idiotic. Doesn't matter who the player is or who he may become. it's dumb
I understand what you're saying, but does your opinion change on QBs?
Quote: I understand what you're saying, but does your opinion change on QBs? ïbr />
I would say for a proven QB in his prime (aaron rogers), absolutely give away 1 draft.
On that note, having a proven franchise QB could also open up the door for a massive trade for a guy like MegaTron. Considering that we are still in search mode, we can't give up 1st rounders for WRs. Our 2015 picks are Manziel-Insurance!
The Texans opened minicamp last week without veteran wide receiver Andre Johnson, and then failed to add a quarterback of substance during the NFL Draft.
And in the days since, it doesn’t sound like Johnson is thrilled with the direction of the franchise, saying he wondered “is this still the place for me?”
“This offseason has been very frustrating for me,” Johnson said, via the Houston Chronicle.
Johnson, speaking at a charity event, said he hadn’t asked for a trade, but won’t be reporting to voluntary OTAs or minicamp.
He said he’s talking to team officials weekly, but was clearly bothered by something, saying he was in a “situation,” and that he’d see “what happens.”
Texans owner Bob McNair might not be worried about the team’s quarterback situation after a 2-14 season, but the 32-year-old Johnson doesn’t have to be thrilled about catching passes from the law firm of Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tom Savage, Case Keenum and T.J. Yates.
PB. Just saw that same story and thought, that is our guy. I hope Farmer has already made the inquiry. Johnson would be a great pick up. While a 2nd is a lot to offer, would prefer our 3rd, I would still do it. Gives us a legit playmaker at WR and a mentor to our young WR and leadership on the offensive side of the ball. Plus he already knows the playbook.
Would really give me a renewed confidence after not addressing WR in the draft. And fill that whole in my stomach I have had since Friday after hearing the Gordon news.
It's Andre Johnson. I'd give up that 2nd in less than a second, and not bat an eye thinking about it. Hehe, I would definitely also try to dangle that 1st for Megatron.
Could you imagine if Gordon doesn't get suspended and we would have Megatron, Gordon and Andre? Gordon as your slot guy? lol!
Quote: It's Andre Johnson. I'd give up that 2nd in less than a second, and not bat an eye thinking about it. Hehe, I would definitely also try to dangle that 1st for Megatron.
Could you imagine if Gordon doesn't get suspended and we would have Megatron, Gordon and Andre? Gordon as your slot guy? lol!
SICK.
the guy is 32. going to be 33 before the season starts. I think a second is too much.
Quote: It's Andre Johnson. I'd give up that 2nd in less than a second, and not bat an eye thinking about it. Hehe, I would definitely also try to dangle that 1st for Megatron.
Could you imagine if Gordon doesn't get suspended and we would have Megatron, Gordon and Andre? Gordon as your slot guy? lol!
SICK.
the guy is 32. going to be 33 before the season starts. I think a second is too much.
I agree a 2nd would be a steep price. I would have no problem giving up a 3rd.
I just think that given our need, the fact he already knows the playbook, and his playmaking ability I wouldn't be upset if we gave up a second.
I think Little would be the biggest benefactor if we did get Johnson. I think with his leadership Little would blossom.
Given Pblacks cap hit figure I think Johnson is off the list.
I also think Holmes is out, given that Haslam and Pettine have both worked with him and to the best of my knowledge we should no interest after he was cut. I could be wrong.
That's not exactly how dead money works... That's the number if they just cut him. If it's just guaranteed money they haven't paid out yet then the Browns (or whoever traded for him) would be on the hook for it and it would be off the books for Houston. They only eat what they've already paid out but haven't hit against the cap yet.
Thanks for clearing that up clsteve. I thought any bonus is automatically prorated against the cap and any move be it trade or release accelerates that hit. So if he gat a 5 year contract with 20 gar. it counted 4 per and since he has 3 years left it would count 12 mil to move him.
That would make Calvin and Fits untradeable also.
The best option would probably be to look at cash strapped teams with some decent WR depth that have guys with 1-2 years remaining on their rookie deals. A situation like Demarrius Thomas, (which will not happen).
Another option could be Brandon Marshall. If I am not mistaken he is in the final year of his deal and with the emergence of Jefferies could be gettable. (Not likely though)
Thanks to predator for doing the research. (All I needed to do was go back to page 4)
Nelson, Cobb or Marshall would be great gets, but I think both will be next to impossible to get without overpaying. I like Roddy White but I don't see ATL moving him.
Two lesser names I like that would be upgrades and possibly get at a reasonable price are Cecil Shorts and Denarrius Moore.
A signing bonus is paid all at once to the player, but allocates against the team's cap on an annual basis, up to a maximum of 4 years. Reporting bonuses, workout bonuses, and such are allocated on an annual basis.
Guarantees work differently. They "travel" with the player if he is traded. (though signing bonuses are counted as guaranteed money, they are different in this regard)
Let's say that a player has a 4 year deal with a $10 million signing bonus, and additional guarantees that fully guarantee his 1st 3 seasons at $4 million each. (just to use a number) His signing bonus would account for an annual cap hit of $2,5 million as long as he is on the team under this contract. Once traded or cut, that remaining signing bonus would accelerate against the cap. If he is traded, then his new team would take on the cap responsibility for his salary guarantees.
There are a lot of really complicated aspects of the NFL cap, and even though I think that I know a lot, there is a lot that I am not 100% sure on.
I must have mis-heard his contract. I thought that he was going to make 6.5 this year and 15 next year. Then be a free agent after 2015. I wanted to restructure to add years. I wouldn't want to give a 2nd round pick for only 2 years.
I looked and saw somewhere that confirms your numbers.
I see nothing wrong with a guy, who has been a Pro's Pro since he got into the league, voicing his displeasure with how the team is handling the QB position..
Specifically if his season, and the teams, are dependent on that position...
Why the hell would Andre Johnson want to spend his last 3-4 years in the league catching passes from Ryan Fitzpatrick and HOPING Tom Savage becomes anything?
He's earned his right on that team to voice his opinion.
Quote: I see nothing wrong with a guy, who has been a Pro's Pro since he got into the league, voicing his displeasure with how the team is handling the QB position..
Specifically if his season, and the teams, are dependent on that position...
Why the hell would Andre Johnson want to spend his last 3-4 years in the league catching passes from Ryan Fitzpatrick and HOPING Tom Savage becomes anything?
He's earned his right on that team to voice his opinion.
Generally, I don't either. But I prefer them to keep it in house. Not in the press.
What's the value of it being out there for all to read?
I don't like Whiners. you got a problem with your employer, talk to them. You don't need to go to the press. It's childish.
Quote: That's not exactly how dead money works... That's the number if they just cut him. If it's just guaranteed money they haven't paid out yet then the Browns (or whoever traded for him) would be on the hook for it and it would be off the books for Houston. They only eat what they've already paid out but haven't hit against the cap yet.
Also, if they move him after June 1, then they can prorate any escalating dead money over this year and next.
The NFL is the Home of Funny Accounting... where there's a will, there's usually a way to make things happen.
Houston needs a QB. We need a WR. What if Houston offered Andre Johnson for Brian Hoyer straight up right now and said that we had 3 days to take it or leave it. What would you do?
Quote: Houston needs a QB. We need a WR. What if Houston offered Andre Johnson for Brandon Hoyer straight up right now and said that we had 3 days to take it or leave it. What would you do?
I don't believe that deal would ever be offered. And knowing how hard it is to find a QB and knowing that Hoyer may very well be a fit and NOT Knowing if JM is real for the NFL, I think I'd pass on the deal.
Knowing that this franchise has its future set on Johnny Cleveland, I would do it. The problem is that Haslam had to run his big mouth to the media about what was told to Maniziel by the coaching staff about being a backup. If we were to trade Hoyer now, it would totally ruin the organization's credibility.
Quote: Knowing that this franchise has its future set on Johnny Cleveland, I would do it. The problem is that Haslam had to run his big mouth to the media about what was told to Maniziel by the coaching staff about being a backup. If we were to trade Hoyer now, it would totally ruin the organization's credibility.
First, I believe you are correct about the Browns thinking that Manziel is the future. That shouldn't even come into question.
But, they wanted Weeden to be the man also, how did that work out. My point is, we don't know if JM is "THE GUY" yet. maybe, if in July or August, it's determined that Johnny is the guy, then sure. I suppose that's fine then although you'd be leaving yourself with out any experienced NFL Player as a back up to a rookie.
As for Haslam talking, I don't find what he said to be in poor taste or timing and despite what was said, There will be no problem changing things later.
Simply put, if Pettine says, hey, JM is great, we GOTTA go with him, they'll do just that and the thought of having prep as a back up will go out the window.
I don't think Haslam caused even a lick of problem with that.
I don't have a problem with what Haslam said, I just wish he didn't have to leak it to the media feeding frenzy and drive home the point with the, "Act like a backup. This isn't Hollywood" part.
He could have just said, "Right now, we have a starting QB and Johnny is going to have to earn it."
Either way, I posed the question because I find it intriguing. Andre Johnson is arguable the best WR in the league besides Calvin Johnson. We REALLY need a WR right now or else Hoyer or Manziel could both be failures.
According to Earl Bennetts nephew, he is saying that Bennett has signed with Cleveland..Also another Browns website reporting it as well..Not sure if im allowed to say names or not
I understand that he's a "TE" But he's a guy at 6'5 240lb that a great pass catcher..
Just an idea.
Jermichael Finley would be an absolute Gem of a signing, I thought that yesterday. But isn't this the guy who is currently going to arbitration to prove he is due Wr money instead of TE money in regards to a franchise tag, or something?
If that is the case, then I highly doubt that his status is actually unrestricted.
Quote: Houston needs a QB. We need a WR. What if Houston offered Andre Johnson for Brian Hoyer straight up right now and said that we had 3 days to take it or leave it. What would you do?
'Andre Johnson is frustrated with the Texans; should the Browns become possible trade partner for receiver?'
isn't it nice that we have a front office that isn't just sticking with what we've had and adding a little bit of pieces to our WR corps? Weve had terrible WRs for years upon years upon years...and at best we have 1 or 2 good ones...and when I say good...I mean passable. Braylon Antonio Bryant Jurevicius Kevin Johnson Josh Gordon...
1 good one at a time...and the rest, gross. Our current FO saw Gordon only, plus him missing games...and instead of finding more rookies and unknowns that contribute nothing or very little... So we add Austin, Bennett, Hawkins, and Burleson...all guys that have contributed in the league... While Austin and Burleson have injury histories, and Hawkins is recovered from an injury, and Bennett has been inconsistent in Chicago...These are all guys that have been in the league and had success of some sort.
We're trying to improve our roster and our success level.
Quote: Isn't he frustrated with them for having the same issues that we've had?
Yep, instability at coach, inability to find consistent QB play, losing seasons, failure to make the playoffs.... I'm sure he' would LOVE to come here and would just pour his whole heart into it.
With 25+ WRs taken in this 'deep WR' draft, that means a bunch of guys who made NFL rosters last year will likely get cut - solid vets but guys nearing the end of their career/contract, guys still developing, and guys coming off their rookie years who had promise just one year ago.
After the draft, we were able to bring in several UDFAs with potential and pickup two FA vets who may or may not pan out - but who have produced before in the league.
As we move through camps and other teams release players - for a variety of reasons - we will have even more tires to kick.
I think that strategy will reap quicker benefits than would have been reaped by taking the 10th WR on the board when players we rated higher were still available (and then picked).
Someone thinking outside the box! Kudos!! I never thought in those terms. You see teams already dumping positions they drafted. With our cap space, it plays well.
With 25+ WRs taken in this 'deep WR' draft, that means a bunch of guys who made NFL rosters last year will likely get cut - solid vets but guys nearing the end of their career/contract, guys still developing, and guys coming off their rookie years who had promise just one year ago.
After the draft, we were able to bring in several UDFAs with potential and pickup two FA vets who may or may not pan out - but who have produced before in the league.
As we move through camps and other teams release players - for a variety of reasons - we will have even more tires to kick.
I think that strategy will reap quicker benefits than would have been reaped by taking the 10th WR on the board when players we rated higher were still available (and then picked).
I agree 100%, as this is exactly what I have been saying. Some bigger name receivers may even come loose sooner rather than later, as teams cut them loose out of respect so they have a chance to catch on with another team.
Report: Andre Johnson wants a trade, four teams interested
Andre Johnson has already said he’s not sure he’ll show up for Texans training camp.
But what he really wants is to show up for someone else’s.
According to Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network, Johnson has told the Texans he wants to play elsewhere, and four teams are interested in making a move.
But to this point, the Texans haven’t budged, on money or location.
Johnson has already lost $1 million for not showing up this offseason, and he apparently asked the team for a chance to earn it back this year. As you might imagine, they said no.
For a guy about to turn 33, Johnson still has plenty to offer, but his contract makes a move tougher.
For one, the Texans would have to give in to what amounts to an offseason holdout. Plus, he’s due to make $10 million this year, meaning anyone who would trade for him would have to work out a new deal.
Honestly... if they seriously do want to win this season, maybe they ought to call up Houston and see what could be done. He's 33 years old and a freak WR. I think he's got more than enough in the tank to continue to ball at a high level.
We could then use next year's top draft pick on whoever the best WR is and let him battle for #1 or take the sure #2 spot beside Andre. As for Josh, hope he enrolls himself into rehab or something. At this point, we can't rely on Josh. Simple as that.
We got plenty of bodies, yes... not much (IMO) in terms of talent and players we could rely on. I like Miles Austin, but he doesn't serve much purpose if he is sidelined with stupid injuries. Travis gets extended time and takes one monster hit and I don't think he can recover.
Burleson, #2 at best. Charles Johnson comes with some hype, but hype here in Cleveland don't mean CRAP lol!
I don't feel too warm and fuzzy when I reflect on our WR core and who we have available.
I'm with you. We were 4-12 with a phenomenal #1 and an emerging TE. We still have the TE who should be trending upward. This will be a different offense. I'm willing to find out what we have as of now.
Since most of them are veterans with injury histories, I think we pretty much know what we have even though some won't admit it.
Our saving grace could be Hawkins. He will be a good, quick target for short downs with enough illusiveness to break them for some YAC.
But anyone fooling themselves into thinking we're okay at WR? Being weak at WR doesn't equate to being okay at the position. When you go through 3 QB's in one season, you can't say we didn't win because we had a good WR.
Well you can, but I doubt you'll convince many people. Getting weaker at any position doesn't mean you're okay at the position.
Quote: Since most of them are veterans with injury histories, I think we pretty much know what we have even though some won't admit it.
Our saving grace could be Hawkins. He will be a good, quick target for short downs with enough illusiveness to break them for some YAC.
But anyone fooling themselves into thinking we're okay at WR? Being weak at WR doesn't equate to being okay at the position. When you go through 3 QB's in one season, you can't say we didn't win because we had a good WR.
Well you can, but I doubt you'll convince many people. Getting weaker at any position doesn't mean you're okay at the position.
Just to be clear I said I was willing to find out what we have. I didn't say we were ok.
I looked over the roster. The WRs who are aging AND coming off injury are: Austin and Burleson. Armstrong is older but to my knowledge, uninjured.
In general, young guys should heal differently so, Benjamin and Charles Johnson are in a different category. Hawkins has already displayed no ill effects from recent injiury.
After that we have Chandler Jones, Snead, Taylor Gabriel, Jon Krause, Kenny Shaw and Connor Vernon.
That's 12 WRs to create a receiving corp of 6? No one is deluding themselves into thinking this will be an elite group. But the Patriots have been using a roster of lessor knowns for years. Nobody feared the Seahawks receivers at the start of last season. Other teams find ways to compensate when players go down with injury or suspension. I made the point recently that I do not root against Browns players. If they show that they can't contribute then move on. Right now its an open question.
Quote: I'm with you. We were 4-12 with a phenomenal #1 and an emerging TE. We still have the TE who should be trending upward. This will be a different offense. I'm willing to find out what we have as of now.
And we had crappy Weeden with no run game too.This WR corp is not going to cut it.You got to have serious weapons to keep the defense honest,and these guys are just avg receivers on a ground and pound offense.The Browns have to draft top talent for the position if they want to be elite in the future.
This may be a little off the wall but I wonder if both the Texans and the Browns would consider a Josh Gordon for Andre Johnson trade.
A 33 year old for a 23 year old. A guy who has a few years left that can deliver now versus a guy who is a young stud with real issues but has great potential and at the same time the potential for ruin.
Interesting concept really. Risk reward for both teams.
Not sure how that would be perceived by either party.
Gordon you can not help to want his future as a guy who turns his life around. At the same time you have no idea if he can turn his life around.
Johnson at 33 you figure you get a few good years and then a decline in production while he makes a ton of money.
With all due respect, imo you are overthinking this. Of course you don't trade Gordon for Johnson. San Fran gave up a 6th rounder for Anquan Boldin, who was younger than Johnson. Gordon is a rare talent that costs you nothing to hang onto, and hope he gets his <stuff> together. His upside is huge, and the risk is negatory at this point: the worst has already happened. All thats left to do with Gordon is to see if he can get his life in order. Send a 6th, or a 5th, or even a 4th to Houston for A Johnson, as a bridge to (hopefully) Gordon's eventual return.
You really do not know what path Gordon will take. You don't know what type of teammate he is? His history shows his actions. If you want to project his future you look at his past actions.
We are not talking about a second chance here. This guy has been been given every chance to clean up. It was made clear to him by Banner and company he was on thin ice. With all the "help" that has been thrown his way from Haslam on down he has turned a deaf ear. With all the money involved it has made no difference.
Bolden was a major factor in the Ravens Super Bowl season. Johnson is a better receiver. You give up a guy that has proven he can not tolerate being sober for a pro bowler with 2 or 3 years left.
I have serious doubts the Texans under the current Johnson contract would consider a 5th or 6th rounder.
This may be a little off the wall but I wonder if both the Texans and the Browns would consider a Josh Gordon for Andre Johnson trade.
A 33 year old for a 23 year old. A guy who has a few years left that can deliver now versus a guy who is a young stud with real issues but has great potential and at the same time the potential for ruin.
Interesting concept really. Risk reward for both teams.
Not sure how that would be perceived by either party.
Gordon you can not help to want his future as a guy who turns his life around. At the same time you have no idea if he can turn his life around.
Johnson at 33 you figure you get a few good years and then a decline in production while he makes a ton of money.
Tough deal to figure out.
Who cares what the Texans would do, I think that's a dumb move for the Browns to even contemplate.
Quote: I have serious doubts the Texans under the current Johnson contract would consider a 5th or 6th rounder.
Then send a 4th round pick. Heck, I wouldn't care if we sent Houston a 3rd round pick. A Johnson is a stud WR on the downside of his career; he could be our best WR while Gordon is gone. All these draft picks have become too iconic to Browns' fans - at some point you use them to address a current need, rather than always being concerned about the future. I'm not suggesting we behave like some modern day George Allen, trading away the future for the present. But the judicious use of draft assets to fill a crucial need is sometimes necessary. I just don't want to give up on a guy who is arguably the 2nd best WR in the game today.
You really do not know what path Gordon will take. You don't know what type of teammate he is? His history shows his actions. If you want to project his future you look at his past actions.
We are not talking about a second chance here. This guy has been been given every chance to clean up. It was made clear to him by Banner and company he was on thin ice. With all the "help" that has been thrown his way from Haslam on down he has turned a deaf ear. With all the money involved it has made no difference.
Bolden was a major factor in the Ravens Super Bowl season. Johnson is a better receiver. You give up a guy that has proven he can not tolerate being sober for a pro bowler with 2 or 3 years left.
I have serious doubts the Texans under the current Johnson contract would consider a 5th or 6th rounder.
I have serious doubts anyone in his right mind would trade for Gordon right now. While Bolden is an aging vet, he IS a sure thing to actually show up and take the field. For the rest of his career Gordon will be a question mark. You can't count on him. Next draft we will HAVE to look at a #1 WR even if Gordon is off suspension. Why? Because at any moment he could F-up again and we'd be in the position we are now. No real threats in the passing game. This team NEEDS a Wr that can catch 80 or more balls and score double digit touchdowns. Hell, we need TWO. If we keep him like so many seem to want, we will still have to proceed as if he isn't here. Make NO plans with him in mind. If he's off suspension next season we still have a huge hole at the #1 wide receiver spot.
I'd love for Bolden to be a Brown. I really wanted us to trade for him five years ago. Of course that made too much sense. But I don't see the Niners trading him for Gordon. Same goes for the Texans. Why give up a sure thing, even if he is getting up there in years and holding out. When the time comes he'll show up and play. Can't say the same thing for Gordon.
Quote: I don't know, I think we have plenty at WR.
Really? Name the WR on the Browns that will catch 80 balls? Score double digit touchdowns? Make the entire league take notice and plan for him? Make D's back off the LOS and open up the running game?
I'd trade a 6th for Josh if the Browns were dumb enough to take it. He may not be on the field, but when he is, he's an all pro. You're pretty unlikely to find an all-pro WR outside of the first 3 rounds.
Quote: I don't know, I think we have plenty at WR.
Really? Name the WR on the Browns that will catch 80 balls? Score double digit touchdowns? Make the entire league take notice and plan for him? Make D's back off the LOS and open up the running game?
Brandon Marshall, Fitzgerald, Dez, Gordon, Megatron and Andre Johnson all have one thing in common with me. I was sitting at home watching the playoffs just like they were. Its nice to have the great wide receiver but it is the one position you can get away with functional more than any other. If they can Catch Johny will buy them time to get open. If they can catch hoyer gets rid of the ball so quick it makes it hard for the defence to cover.
I'd rather go with our young core than sell the farm for Johnson or anyone else that's unhappy. Not like they'll want to come here anyway. Just say no to aging WRs.
If we could get Johnson for something like a 3rd and a 5th which i doubt we could i would do it in a heartbeat. He is 33......i dont think he is worth anything more then a 3rd....io would be shocked if we offered a 2nd....
Quote: How many catches did Armstrong, Burrleson, and Austin have last year?
Put it this way..........I don't play Fantasy Football, but if I did, I would spend a pretty high pick on Jordan Cameron.
I don't know how many catches they had, and don't really care. We aren't going to go from 80 catches and 11 TDs, or whatever it was with Gordon to 20 catches and 1 TD.
No doubt, Jordon is going to be huge. He will be our #1 receiver much like Ozzie was.
I guess that looks about right without pulling up the roster.
Before we go any further, who out there that is available is going to be better than Gordon? There isn't. Miles Austin has as good a shot of replacing Gordons numbers as Andre Johnson.
I personally like the kid we picked up as an UDFA, Chandler Jones from San Jose State.
He is a smaller receiver, but he ran a sub 4.4 40 and he catches everything thrown his way. I'm not sure how polished he is, but I love the tape from the Minnesota game last year.
I know Josh Gordon is a talent and WE WILL MISS HIM, but you cannot have selfish players on your team. They are stat-mongers who only care about I and ME. I think good quarterback play can more than make up for losing a talent like Gordon's.
In my opinion Hawkins is the only WR likely to make a big difference. If Austin still has any gas in the tank he will be solid. Everyone else is very shaky and questionable to me. Not having Gordon pretty much tanks this unit down from to below average.
So let me make an educated guess at our WR corps (barring any FA pickup and/or trade obviously)
Miles Austin Nate Burleson Andrew Hawkins Anthony Armstrong Travis Benjamin Charles Johnson
Does this look about right?
I think the four who are locks to make the roster are Miles Austin, Andrew Hawkins, Travis Benjamin and Nate Burleson.
I think the other 2 spots are WIDE OPEN.
Travis Benjamin might be a injury casualty. as far as I know he still is not fully recovered?
The last thing I heard about him (about 2 or 3 weeks ago) was pretty much what you said, he's not fully recovered and probably would not be ready to go at the start of the regular season (sighs).
Quote: How many catches did Armstrong, Burrleson, and Austin have last year?
Put it this way..........I don't play Fantasy Football, but if I did, I would spend a pretty high pick on Jordan Cameron.
I'm not really worried about how many catches each guy had last year, because they were in different circumstances entirely last year.
My biggest concerns is that almost all of our top WRs, outside of Gordon, were hurt last year. Burleson had the car accident. Austin had the hamstring. Benjamin tore up his knee. Hawkins only played 8 games. Johnson had a knee.
That is a lot of recovery we need to have take place,
Nate Ulrich ‏@NateUlrichABJ · 10m Jimmy Haslam's Pilot Flying J announces it has reached agreement with government & will not be prosecuted, provided it meets the terms.
Nate Ulrich ‏@NateUlrichABJ · 10m Jimmy Haslam's Pilot Flying J announces it has reached agreement with government & will not be prosecuted, provided it meets the terms.
Quote: How many catches did Armstrong, Burrleson, and Austin have last year?
Put it this way..........I don't play Fantasy Football, but if I did, I would spend a pretty high pick on Jordan Cameron.
I'm not really worried about how many catches each guy had last year, because they were in different circumstances entirely last year.
My biggest concerns is that almost all of our top WRs, outside of Gordon, were hurt last year. Burleson had the car accident. Austin had the hamstring. Benjamin tore up his knee. Hawkins only played 8 games. Johnson had a knee.
That is a lot of recovery we need to have take place,
Uhmmm.........that was pretty much my point when I questioned Peen and others when they said our WRs would be fine? What freaking proof is there of that?
Let me answer for you. There is no proof. Austin and Burrelson were out of a job. Hawkins is slot receiver. The other guy has been cut by more than one team. How can anyone say they will replace Gordon's productivity? They can't. It's blind homerism that most won't question because they want it to be true. The same thing can be said of our running game. You guys set yourself up for disappointment.
Has anyone said any of our WRs have come in and replace Gordons production? No.
I think of it like Moneyball, if we can get 3 guys to come in and combine for what Gordon has, then well be fine, and anything else we get, will be more than we had last year, cause Gordon was pretty much it..
I see our Run game as being 10x better, so if production wise we can get the same basic stats, well be better as an offense.
I agree, I think Hawkins is the only threat as of now, and he is a slot guy. I think teams will play to take him out of the game, and make the others beat them. The only true threat I see as of now is Cameron.
But, training camp could produce a surprise. I am really interested in Johnson, and how they use Benjamin. Time will tell, who will be the deep threat that will take the pressure off the other guys.
I was just busting some balls over the "we'll be fine" comments. There really is no evidence that our WRs will produce. It's just wishful thinking at this point. I am NOT saying they won't produce, but I AM saying that we have no evidence to make such a prediction.
Quote: Yeah, I think Johnson is an interesting prospect.
I was just busting some balls over the "we'll be fine" comments. There really is no evidence that our WRs will produce. It's just wishful thinking at this point. I am NOT saying they won't produce, but I AM saying that we have no evidence to make such a prediction.
I think that sums up my feelings on the matter nicely.
Johnson could be a diamond in the rough. Come preseason, if he's playing, I will be all keeping an eye on him specifically. Green Bay seemed sad to see the kid go.
Not busting me up. Miles Austin has been a top player in the league providing top numbers. You say he has a injury history yet you don't take in to account Gordons drug history.
I guess where I am comming from is does it really matter why a person misses games? At least from a pure stat standpoint.
People keep comparing our new guys to Gordon like Gordon can still play and we aren't going to play him.
Gordon is going to give us ZERO stats this year. I can guarantee you I could put up better numbers than Josh Gordon this year. I know I could catch at least 1 ball and gain 1 yard minimum.. 100% improvement over what we will get out of him.....so maybe you just need to buy me a few shots of a fine Tennessee Mash, a big steak, sit back and enjoy some stories for a few hours, then maybe smoke a Cuban stogie over a brandy or cognac, then shake my hand.
Bro, I am not counting on Gordon for anything other than getting into more trouble and watching his minions defend him. If you check the posts from the past, you will see I NEVER trusted the guy.
I am simply saying that we can not honestly proclaim that these wannabes, stiffs, and has-beens are going to put up the same numbers Gordon put up.
They aren't going to put up the same numbers. Very few people in the league could, and certainly not anybody "available".
We don't disagree there. My only point is we have done as well as possible in replacing him with viable options, so there isn't any sense in worrying about the numbers that can't be replaced.
Cleveland Browns Training Camp 2014: WR Preview, Part 1 (Primary Receivers)
our training camp preview for the Cleveland Browns wide receivers beings today, and it gets a bit tricky to diagnose the position due to the Josh Gordon situation. Another interesting note: last year, the four receivers listed in Part 1 of our WR Preview had an average age of 24 years old. This year, the top four receivers listed below have an average age of 28 years old. Today's preview looks at the players who are expected to be in the mix for significant playing time in 2014.
1. JOSH GORDON - STATUS UNKNOWN
The 2013 season was an up-and-down ride for Josh Gordon, and it only continued into 2014. Last year, Gordon was suspended for the first two games of the regular season due to substance abuse. Heavy rumors were initiated that the Browns' front office -- then consisting of Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi -- were trying to trade Gordon, in fear that he would get in trouble again and face banishment from the league.
There were no takers for their asking price, which most fans rejoiced in because we did not want to let go of a player with Gordon's potential. No one could have seen just how quickly Gordon would transform into an elite talent, though. In just 14 games, Gordon led the NFL with 87 catches for 1,646 yards receiving and 9 touchdowns.
The pinnacle stretch of Gordon's career came in a three-week span against the Steelers, Jaguars, and Patriots. During that stretch, he had two straight 200-yard receiving games, the first receiver in NFL history to accomplish such a feat. The three-game stretch saw him post the following stats: 31 catches for 649 yards and 4 touchdowns. The most talked about play was the breakaway speed he showed against Patriots CB Aqib Talib.
Gordon would undoubtedly make the receivers around him better, but he has an appeal hearing in late-July, where he likely faces a suspension. It could even be a one-year ban. The waiting process has made it very difficult on the Browns' coaching staff because he really is irreplaceable. Yes, Gordon needs to sort out his personal life, but selfishly, I want to see Gordon playing in a Browns uniform this season. It still makes no sense to cut him, though, so I hope the Browns don't choose to go down that path.
Job Security: Suspension Pending Final Roster Odds: Suspension Pending
2. ANDREW HAWKINS - STARTING / SLOT WIDE RECEIVER
Whether Gordon plays or not, one of the best and boldest moves made across the NFL this offseason came when Browns GM Ray Farmer made just the right type of offer to Andrew Hawkins to "steal" him away from the division rival Cincinnati Bengals.
Hawkins is a small guy at 5-7, but he's probably one of the quickest guys you'll see in the NFL in terms of faking out defenders. If you don't believe me, check out this video of his 1-on-1 skills with the Bengals. There is also this video of him in live game action.
If Hawkins is so good, then why let him go? Because of circumstance and great timing by the Browns. Hawkins went undrafted in 2008, but had a workout with the Cleveland Browns. Cleveland didn't sign him, and Hawkins went off to the CFL. He resurfaced in the NFL again in 2011 with the Bengals. In 2012, Hawkins was on the rise with a solid season. Unfortunately, his decline was derailed in 2013 with an injury that forced him to miss the first half of the season. While he was out of action, all of the Bengals' draft pick receivers started to shine, including A.J. Green, Marvin Jones, and Mohamed Sanu. They had also already committed to a two-tight end tandem of Jermaine Gresham and Tyler Eifert. To an extent, running back Giovani Benard did some of the "waterbug" type of duties that Hawkins would have. The Bengals liked Hawkins, but they rode the momentum of the players who were healthy the first half of the year.
This offseason, the Browns made their offer sheet lucrative enough that the Bengals couldn't justify matching for a player who would probably be listed as the No. 4 receiver on their depth chart heading into training camp. Hawkins has been active on social media and was impressive in all of the team's offseason programs thus far. If anyone is bound to break out as the new fan favorite in 2014, it'll be this guy.
Job Security: A+ (to be a top three receiver, either in the slot or the outside) Final Roster Odds: 100%
3. NATE BURLESON - COMPETING TO BE A STARTING WIDE RECEIVER
Nate Burleson will be entering his 12th season in the NFL. He began his career as a third-round draft pick by the Minnesota Vikings in 2003. He played there for three seasons before becoming a members of the Seattle Seahawks from 2006-2009. From 2010-2013, he was with the Lions, usually as the No. 2 receiver opposite of WR Calvin Johnson.
While Burleson played second-fiddle to Johnson, he might be asked to be the Browns No. 1 receiver this year if Gordon is out. He's still recovering from the injuries to his arm, but is expected to be ready for the start of training camp. While I think there is room for both Burleson and Miles Austin on the roster, I am giving Burleson the slight edge because the Browns signed him well prior to the draft. It wasn't until after the Gordon news became public that Cleveland latched on to several other veteran receivers, including Austin.
Don't let the pizza story distort your opinion of Burleson. He's always been known as a very media-friendly guy and he does his job well as a receiver, plain and simple. The issue won't be Burleson's lack of talent, it'll be whether he is in the right role. As a contributing receiver, he's a nice option. As the No. 1 receiver? That's not going to get defenses fretting very much, but that's not his fault.
Job Security: B+ (assuming Gordon isn't available) Final Roster Odds: 90% (assuming Gordon isn't available)
4. MILES AUSTIN - COMPETING TO BE A STARTING WIDE RECEIVER
"What's that? Another hamstring injury?"
In 2011, Miles Austin pulled his hamstring, forcing him to only play in 10 games. He returned to play 16 games in 2012, but last season, a hamstring injury plagued him again. Austin started 8 games and played in 11, but was a non-factor on offense, notching 24 catches for 244 yards all year.
The Browns have kept Austin out of most of their offseason programs to date because they don't want him to risk straining it again. He's expected to give-it-a-go once training camp begins, but how confident are we that his hamstring won't just pop again? That's the reason he's not rated higher here on the Browns' depth chart.
When Austin is healthy, he's a borderline No. 1 receiver, although certainly more fit to be a No. 2 receiver. In the three seasons Austin was healthy enough to play in all 16 games with the Cowboys -- 2009, 2010, and 2012 -- he averaged 1,101 yards and 8 touchdowns per season. Getting that version of Austin in 2014 would be terrific, but can he still do it at 30 years old with a hamstring that consistently plagues him?
Job Security: B (assuming Gordon isn't available) Final Roster Odds: 90% (assuming Gordon isn't available)
I feel that Austin, Burleson, and Hawkins as a group can put up the same numbers as a unit as Little, Gordon and Bess. This years group appears to to be much better balanced, maybe not as much talent on one player ( Gordon ), but as a group they are capable of being as good as. if a not a better overall unit than last years receivers.
Quote: I am simply saying that we can not honestly proclaim that these wannabes, stiffs, and has-beens are going to put up the same numbers Gordon put up.
And that's a valid point because they won't... If Gordon was coming back I would bet that he wouldn't put up those numbers again either. He had the best season of any WR for the last 5 years not named Calvin Johnson..
The question is not can we find one guy to catch us 1600 yards worth of passes.. the question is can we find a group of guys to catch us over 4,000 yards of passes and do it in such a way that we win more games...
So while I still have my questions about our WR corps, saying they "will be fine" doesn't necessarily mean that there is a 1600 yard guy in there somewhere... there doesn't have to be. The Seahawks won the Super Bowl in dominant fashion and their most productive WR had less than 900 yards...
Quote: I feel that Austin, Burleson, and Hawkins as a group can put up the same numbers as a unit as Little, Gordon and Bess. This years group appears to to be much better balanced, maybe not as much talent on one player ( Gordon ), but as a group they are capable of being as good as. if a not a better overall unit than last years receivers.
Quote: I feel that Austin, Burleson, and Hawkins as a group can put up the same numbers as a unit as Little, Gordon and Bess. This years group appears to to be much better balanced, maybe not as much talent on one player ( Gordon ), but as a group they are capable of being as good as. if a not a better overall unit than last years receivers.
There you go. That's a good way to look at it.
I will say that I concur with Halfback's assessment. I hope this doesn't mean that his has to rethink his position.
Quote: I feel that Austin, Burleson, and Hawkins as a group can put up the same numbers as a unit as Little, Gordon and Bess. This years group appears to to be much better balanced, maybe not as much talent on one player ( Gordon ), but as a group they are capable of being as good as. if a not a better overall unit than last years receivers.
There you go. That's a good way to look at it.
I will say that I concur with Halfback's assessment. I hope this doesn't mean that his has to rethink his position.
Great reasoning, guys. I told you nicely to let it go, but you didn't get the hint..........so, here goes:
I usually never do this but. I am going to go out on a limb and say our top three WR get between 160 and 170 receptions this year with 2300 yards and 12 TD's
People make outlandish claims and when I check them, they--and others--turn the argument around.
Whatever guys..........You win! We have a great WR corps. Logic and reason be dammed.
so let me see. I simply point out that we brought in a couple of players who catch every thing thrown there way and got rid of 2 players that cannot catch a ball and I am making outlandish claims? there is something wrong with you lol
Wife: Which dress do you like, the blue one or the green one? Me: I like the blue one. Wife: Why do you hate the green one?
Nobody.. NOBODY.. NOBODY....has said our WR corps is great. Yet somehow, in your mind, saying they aren't as depleted as people think.. or that they should be ok until better options become available... or that with consistent QB play they could be serviceable.... is somehow reported back, by you, as saying they are great...
DC, you argue like a guy who has his mind made up about certain posters and doesn't take the time to follow what was said.
This all started w/Peen saying: as a group we will be fine. I asked him to expound on it. He said Armstrong, Burrelson, and Austin would make up most of Gordon's numbers. There was additional talk of how how those three would have better numbers than Gordon, Little, and Bess had last year.
I posted the EXACT NUMBERS [FACTUAL] FOR EACH OF PLAYER LAST YEAR. THE NUMBERS WERE NOT CLOSE. GORDON, LITTLE, AND BESS FAR OUTPRODUCED AUSTIN, BURRELSON, AND ARMSTRONG!!!! THAT IS A FACT!!!!
People keep turning the argument around until they find a quote to belittle. You did the same thing.
Btw----------you don't argue like my wife. She isn't that lame!
Wife: Which dress do you like, the blue one or the green one? Me: I like the blue one. Wife: Why do you hate the green one?
Nobody.. NOBODY.. NOBODY....has said our WR corps is great. Yet somehow, in your mind, saying they aren't as depleted as people think.. or that they should be ok until better options become available... or that with consistent QB play they could be serviceable.... is somehow reported back, by you, as saying they are great...
Not only is that funny...but it fits like a glove. You could insert OL, FO, QB and more in place of WR as well and still be spot on.
Wife: Which dress do you like, the blue one or the green one? Me: I like the blue one. Wife: Why do you hate the green one?
Nobody.. NOBODY.. NOBODY....has said our WR corps is great. Yet somehow, in your mind, saying they aren't as depleted as people think.. or that they should be ok until better options become available... or that with consistent QB play they could be serviceable.... is somehow reported back, by you, as saying they are great...
Actually If you read into the posts, most people are taking for granted they the WR corps isn't depleted, that they will be OK, and that with consistent QB play they will be serviceable.
Now; IMHO, we don't have a top 10 QB in our roster, so saying consistent QB play is a possibility to WR production is a paradox, because without WR production our QB's will never be consistent.
Without a #1 WR, DB's will be in 1 vs1 coverage, stacking 8 in the box and pressuring our rookie QB and leading up to inconsistent QB play.
We have been there and done that, and the result were miserable. FO should have drafted a WR, no excuses.
NFL.com's Ian Rapoport reports free agent Santonio Holmes has drawn interest from the Browns.
That's in addition to the Bears, who worked Holmes out on Tuesday. It's not surprising, as the Browns' receiver corps is perhaps the thinnest in the league. The apparent newfound interest in Holmes comes after he spent nearly five months on the street without so much as drawing a visit. Holmes' attitude has caught up with him, though he's trending toward having a Week 1 roster spot.
Quote: NFL.com's Ian Rapoport reports free agent Santonio Holmes has drawn interest from the Browns.
That's in addition to the Bears, who worked Holmes out on Tuesday. It's not surprising, as the Browns' receiver corps is perhaps the thinnest in the league. The apparent newfound interest in Holmes comes after he spent nearly five months on the street without so much as drawing a visit. Holmes' attitude has caught up with him, though he's trending toward having a Week 1 roster spot.
Dunno how I feel about Santonio. The guy's always been a problem. In Pitt and in NY. I'm not sure our first year head coach, QBs without a lot of "clout", and young OC would be able to handle Santonio.
I think it's worth the risk though, he acts up, cut him or suspend him. And not getting signed for this long might be good for him. Guy's got a load of talent. But as I said, if we were going to grab a jerk WR, why wouldn't we have traded that 4th rounder for Stevie Johnson?
One thing I've seen with the Jets is that Santonio can be a trouble maker with a T
I don't think our coaches would have any problems dealing with Holmes, but I still wouldn't want him around the other players. And he has been unproductive.
For those of you who don't know, here's a quick bio:
"The Browns chose Collins with the fourth draft pick in 1962 and immediately made him the starting punter, while also using him as a reserve for veteran receiver Ray Renfro. In 1963, he moved into the starting lineup and led the team with 43 receptions and teamed with quarterback Frank Ryan to pace the league with 13 touchdowns catches. The latter mark broke a team record of nine, established by Dante Lavelli in 1947.
The following year, rookie Paul Warfield became Ryan's top receiver, but Collins developed a knack for coming through in the clutch. The first instance came in the season's second game, when he caught a fourth down pass from Ryan to set up a go-ahead touchdown against the St. Louis Cardinals. Saving the best for last, Collins sparkled in the 1964 NFL championship game, when he was on the receiving end of three touchdown passes from Ryan and won the game's Most Valuable Player award in the 27-0 upset over the Baltimore Colts."
I would really like to see us bring in Santonio Holmes. I think Pettine is tough enough to handle the guy.
Yes, he has had some issues in the past and he hasn't performed well recently, but he is a true talent that isn't old. He won the Super Bowl w/a magnificent catch. He is a true talent that would bring much needed athleticism to a sorry group of receivers [if Gordon gets suspended] in Cleveland.
Quote: For 3 seasons. I don't want any part of Holmes and I doubt Pettine wants any as well.
No offense, but when you guys say stuff like this like it is so authoritative, well..........I just have to question the validity of it, especially when you have been silent when people are acting like our new WR corps is going to be so good.
Quote: For 3 seasons. I don't want any part of Holmes and I doubt Pettine wants any as well.
No offense, but when you guys say stuff like this like it is so authoritative, well..........I just have to question the validity of it, especially when you have been silent when people are acting like our new WR corps is going to be so good.
Holmes sucks.
Burlesons and Austin are studs.
Hmmmmmm
I don't disagree with your bottom statement. I really don't see our WR corp doing anything this year and Holmes is extremely talented. However, Pettine has been reported as a "no-nonsense" kinda guy and it would be rather shocking to see him sign the personification of nonsense.
Quote: For 3 seasons. I don't want any part of Holmes and I doubt Pettine wants any as well.
I am sure Farmer will talk to Pettine 1st, especially given their time together with the jets. If we sign Holmes, I am sure it would be with Pettine's blessing and that Pettine knows what he would be getting into.
Look................you are probably right and I am wrong. There is very little chance that we sign Holmes, so I am not calling you out. Just discussing.........
I was a coach similar to Pettine in the fact of having the ability to challenge guys while not losing them. If I know Pettine, a guy like Holmes would be a personal challenge to straighten out. And if he can't do it during camp, then you cut him.
Quote: Look................you are probably right and I am wrong. There is very little chance that we sign Holmes, so I am not calling you out. Just discussing.........
I was a coach similar to Pettine in the fact of having the ability to challenge guys while not losing them. If I know Pettine, a guy like Holmes would be a personal challenge to straighten out. And if he can't do it during camp, then you cut him.
What's to lose?
I'm sorry if my tone is unsettling. My voice in papers have always been over-the-top and argumentative, even when I don't mean to be. I blame it on the English Education in this country that wants you to make strong statements. I'm really not this way.
I think there's plenty of stuff to lose in signing Santonio. I'll just list a few.
Bad Influence - Historically he's been a bad influence.
Attention - Coaches may have to take more time in explaining things to him or other WR's because he has a history of goofing off IIRC.
Time - He could be robbing the coaches of their time to develop other players if it doesn't work out. He could also be robbing players of their time to be developed if it doesn't work out.
All in all, if he signs here, that's great. Pettine has worked with him before and he feels like he can get a handle on him. I just remain doubtful that Pettine would sign him.
Posted by Mike Wilkening on August 7, 2014, 6:33 PM EDT
This time, Jon Baldwin cleared waivers.
According to the NFL’s transactions, no club claimed the 2011 first-round pick on Thursday, leaving the 24-year-old wide receiver an unrestricted free agent.
Baldwin was claimed by the Lions on Monday, one day after being waived by the 49ers. However, he failed his physical with Detroit, voiding his prospective employment with the club. According to the San Jose Mercury News, Baldwin appeared to be dealing with left knee pain early in Niners training camp.
If Baldwin is hurt, he now has time to heal. And now, he has the ability to sign with any other club. But any interested club will want to find out for itself whether he’s healthy enough to play. In addition to a physical, he might be subject to a pre-signing workout.
Given his youth and lofty draft standing just three seasons ago, Baldwin could very well find another NFL suitor. Still, no teams were willing to take a chance Thursday, which speaks to the burden now placed upon the former Pitt star. Now, he needs to show he’s healthy, and now, he must convince another club he can be developed.
Look................you are probably right and I am wrong. There is very little chance that we sign Holmes, so I am not calling you out. Just discussing.........
I was a coach similar to Pettine in the fact of having the ability to challenge guys while not losing them. If I know Pettine, a guy like Holmes would be a personal challenge to straighten out. And if he can't do it during camp, then you cut him.
What's to lose?
I'm sorry if my tone is unsettling. My voice in papers have always been over-the-top and argumentative, even when I don't mean to be. I blame it on the English Education in this country that wants you to make strong statements. I'm really not this way.
I think there's plenty of stuff to lose in signing Santonio. I'll just list a few.
Bad Influence - Historically he's been a bad influence.
Attention - Coaches may have to take more time in explaining things to him or other WR's because he has a history of goofing off IIRC.
Time - He could be robbing the coaches of their time to develop other players if it doesn't work out. He could also be robbing players of their time to be developed if it doesn't work out.
All in all, if he signs here, Bad Influence - Historically he's been a bad influence. Attention - Coaches may have to take more time in explaining things to him or other WR's because he has a history of goofing off IIRC. Time - He could be robbing the coaches of their time to develop other players if it doesn't work out. He could also be robbing players of their time to be developed if it doesn't work out.that's great. Pettine has worked with him before and he feels like he can get a handle on him. I just remain doubtful that Pettine would sign him.
CHS, sounds like you could be describing Gordon or Manziel here too.
young and cute lol.
