The only players that I view as MUST RE-SIGN...

Tashaun Gipson
Buster Skrine
Craig Robertson

If they'll take modest money...

Ahtyba Rubin
Jabaal Sheard
Miles Austin

Sign a short/modest "prove it type deal"...

Jordan Cameron


The rest can go.

I don't think Rubin, Sheard, Austin or Cameron are worth big money contracts, but I'm not opposed to bringing any of them back. Either way, we need to upgrade our DL, OL, WR#2 and backup/starting TE position (if we lose Cameron).

Remove sheard and replace him with Kitchen and i am good with your reasoning

ERFA



http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/erfa/cleveland-browns/

I'm sure he is a great guy. I'm sure he means what he says about wanting to stay in Cleveland. Who wouldn't?... Cleveland, the town and its fan base is inspiring, especially of late.

But unless we play a base 43 next year, or he takes a "I'm gonna be depth" pay cut, I wish him well and hope he moves on.

Rubin is a 'big fatty' that you want in the middle to stop the run.

don't all theses coaches know he sucks?

Says the guy who hates the fact Hoyer is on the bench.

Yeah, not wanting Rubin next year is completely "unwarranted"

Oh wait...my bad he has a big snap count ahead of a back up NT, a 3-year player playing back up, and a 4-year vet injured for 2. Let's bring him back simply because of his snap count!

Have you been watching him at all? Seriously.

I was under the assumption that Pettine's D relied more heavily on having strong CBs than strong DT ... not that DLine can be ignored, but I thought CB's were the life blood

I look forward to Armonty Bryant returning. He was a key piece and was lost early.

Jim Leonhard set to retire after Baltimore game

Say what you will about his age, his speed, whatever... but he has filled in great all year and especially when Gipson went down.

Pettine said he, and likely many others, will try to talk him coming back again and personally... I hope they can ink him up for another year. I'd love to see Jim back here next here. He's got to be a great presence on and off the field, especially on a team full of youngsters.

Same with Miles Austin, if he doesn't want to retire I hope they pursue some type of contract with him as' well for similar reasons as I said about Jimmy.

I agree that Armonty Bryant COULD be a key piece but let's not forget he did next to nothing this season before going down. All the hype was during the preseason and what he did last year. He sure has the size and the speed to be an effective DE in this 3-4, but I didn't see a whole lot in the 4-5 games.

Now, to his defense, that could be due to the coaches who put him in weird positions...for example lining him up at the 0 or 1 technique on third down with a two-man rush. Personally, I think he has no business there, and better yet, the Browns have no business running a two-down lineman rush on third downs (but that's for another thread). And they had such a heavy DL rotation of players from the first snap, Armonty just didn't get a lot of reps, IIRC. I recall his lack of playmaking to be a topic on this thread early on...to where people were saying "did he even play?" more or less.

I think he could be a impact player moving forward, but I get the sense the coaches don't know where he best fits in their defense.

Interesting, I only care about one player from each group. I think Sheard, Gipson, and Robertson should be the main focuses. I think I'm in the minority when it comes to Skrine, I don't like him as a player. He's undersized and has multiple interference/holding penalties in seemingly every game because of it. Those yards count against him. He's also inconsistent when he does play well.

both Gipson and kitchen are RFAs so they can be tenderd?

Robertson is a ERFA. how does that work?

Shrine has multiple PI penalties each game? Are you sure you're not thinking about Leon McFadden?

Just me, but I'd like to focus on Skrine, Gipson and Craig. Sheard had an underperformed season IMO. Buster allows us to pretty much shut out an opposing offenses first and second WR. Then Williams, Nelson and Gilbert to battle for nickel spot. JMO

Think Buster Skrine will be hard for Browns to keep. relatively weak draft and free agent pool for CBs. Skrine should have a nice market

wow thats all...for some reason I could have sworn the announcers saying something like the most penalized DBs in the NFL...Do I need one of them wax jobs...lol

Thanks for the info. In all honesty - There was some obvious Jersey pulls...but a lot of ticky tack penalties on Skrine.

I never remember CB flags coming into the evaluations of a CB before. I think I heard it about the guy on the Pats, not Revis the other side? Do teams care that much unless its a result of poor technique or to compensate for a lack of speed. Technique, Skrine has improved every/EVERY season and isn't close to peaking. Speed he has lodes of Speed.

But I didn't realize he was flagged that often. Interesting.

jmho I hope we sign him...not Haden money of course but maybe the best SLOT CB money!

It sounds like Skrine is going to get paid:



Link

Please prepare your hearts for when we don't re-sign him.

I would love to have him back, but not if he is making more than $6 million a year.

I'd be very disappointed if we don't resign him. I think he is the best #2 CB in the NFL.

The one year salary would be something like $13 million. I don't know if we would be willing to commit that much of our cap to a #2 corner.

The Browns have a ton of cap room. Spending $6 to $6.5 million on Skrine is a lot better investment than what they gave McCown.

Hey bugs, I think your timing is a bit off. It was two years ago that people were criticizing Skrine. He has had two very good years in a row.

I think he is most certainly worth $6 to $6.5 million on today's market.

What did you see in Desir? What improvement? Because he actually got some playing time? He gave up SIX passes that resulted in FIRST DOWNS in that game. I don't think he is a bust because he didn't start. I just think that his coverage was awful. He had stiff hips and didn't come out of breaks very well. He may improve, but we have questions at corner and I think it would be very wise to keep Skrine, especially in today's passing league.

That's my thinking. Since Gilbert turned out to be fools gold at least in his first season, the FO is in a position where they are almost forced into paying Skrine.

Pettine has made no bones about how much of a priority the secondary is in his D scheme. Without Skrine, as of now, this secondary would have a major hole. For the importance this team puts in the secondary, that would be a bargain considering the price CB's command in the FA market today.

Every year there are corners that sign one year deals and people say, "Oh my gosh, how did the the [insert team name here] get [insert player here] on that deal?"

Last year it was Brandon Flowers, Antonio Cromartie, and Walter Thurmond. The year before it was Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie and Brent Grimes.

There are guys available every year after the frenzy of the first few days is over. We just have to find them.

You know I love you bugs, and I am not getting on your case.

I just don't think relying on Desir to take Skrine's spot is all that smart.

Nothing else, bro.

The Browns have a ton of cap room. Spending $6 to $6.5 million on Skrine is a lot better investment than what they gave McCown.

My read was that the coaches/players disliked Gilbert more than Manziel.

I will be highly disappointed if we go into the season with Gilbert penciled in as anything more than a wildcard. Dude got benched mid-season.

Why pay Jackson, Culliver, or Maxwell money when Skrine will get similar money?

My bet is we re-sign Skrine or we sign someone like Kyle Wilson (yuck) to a one year deal.

I'm not disagreeing. GMs normally go with their guys.

Biggest knock on Skrine, ditto Hadden too, is they struggle against big receivers. I believe that is why they went bigger in the draft last year.

then I would tag him a 2nd rd tender and take the pick.

Cleveland Browns Free Agent Review: OLB Jabaal Sheard

Why Keeping Him Could Make Sense: You can't question Sheard's toughness -- he could have easily called it quits to let his foot heal to 100 percent, but he played through the pain instead. Perhaps a sign that he did a lot of the "unsung hero" business of the defense is the fact that he was given a grade of +8.2 on the season by Pro Football Focus.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/3/1/8129981/cleveland-browns-free-agent-review-olb-jabaal-sheard

Why Keeping Him Doesn't Make Sense: He's a 4-3 DE.

I thought the knock on Joe was he had a hard time against smaller quicker WR's?

Yes bleeds, that is true. Not ragging on bugs, because he is a good guy and not agenda driven, but yes, Haden does better against bigger WRS and struggles more against the shiftier, quicker guys.

No one can cover Jimmy Graham.

Julio Jones and AJ Green are two big, stud WR's that I know Hadden has covered exceptionally well. I think "no one can cover" is a figure of speech more so an exclamation that they are open on every single play ... but "no one can cover Jimmy Graham!" LOL. from what I have seen myself and from what I have read on Haden - he covers the big WR's (not TE's!) better than the smaller, more agile ones. Though in his first 2-3 games this year he didn't cover anyone particularly well.

That is a bit of exaggeration don't you think.

Just because I havne't seen it posted here yet... per official Browns app, the Browns re-signed Shaun Draughn and Spencer Lanning today.

Mary Kay says a quarter of the league is interested in Skrine.

Yet, the Browns might not want to sign him and rely on a bunch of "ifs."

I often despise the PFF rankings. Not sure of how they grade, but they are often way off.

8 teams wanting Skrine this early. Yet, the Browns might not want to sign him and rely on a bunch of "ifs."

Only the Browns.

I think we want Skrine, just not at the price he is going to command.

I think we want Skrine, just not at the price he is going to command.

I often despise the PFF rankings. Not sure of how they grade, but they are often way off.

Why do we grade?

The goal of our detailed grading process is to gauge how players execute their roles over the course of a game by looking at the performance of each individual on each play. We look beyond the box score and study the tape to grade how well each player performs on each play, and as a result over the course of a game and a season. How well a lineman blocks on a given play, how much space and help a runner receives, how effectively a pass rusher brings pressure or how well a defender covers a receiver.

We collect lots of extra statistics such as yards after catch, yards after contact, missed tackles, dropped passes, etc., but our real focus is on grading individual performance on each play. Did an offensive lineman seal his block to spring the runner through a hole? Did a defensive lineman beat his block to force a runner to change the play direction in the backfield? Was the crucial third-down completion due to the quarterback beating the coverage or a breakdown in coverage?

We examine not just the statistical result of a play, but the context of that statistic. The defensive tackle may have made a tackle on a play, but if it was 3rd-and-5 and he got blown 4 yards off of the ball to make the tackle after a 6-yard gain, that’s not a good play.

We’re fully aware that statistics can lie, and the grading is designed to give a true gauge of what happened on a given play by isolating the individual performances as best we can in such a team-driven sport. If the quarterback throws an accurate first down conversion that is dropped, the quarterback receives the same credit as he would have with a catch.

Conversely, a cornerback who gets beat and “benefits” from either a dropped pass or a poor throw from the quarterback, gets docked just as he would have with a completion. In both examples, the result is 0-for-1 — a poor statistical look for the quarterback and a statistical positive for the cornerback — but our grades will accurately reflect their true performance as a positive and a negative, respectively.

The combination of grades and unique statistics allow us to evaluate individual player performance in each game. We present base statistics alongside more advanced statistics together with a grade for every player. The marks are presented as overall composite grades constructed from a number of key areas:

Offense Defense
● Running
● Run Defense
● Passing and Receiving………. ● Pass Rushing
● Pass Protection ● Pass Coverage
● Run Blocking ● Discipline & Procedure
● Screen Blocking
● Discipline & Procedure


What Do We Grade?

Throughout the course of the season (regular season and playoffs) we grade every single offensive, defensive and special teams snap. We log data such as the point of attack of a running play, the location a pass was thrown and hang time of kicks and punts before moving on to the player-performance analysis.

Our detailed comment system allows us to go well beyond the grades to dig even deeper into a player’s skill set. Instead of just looking at a player’s grade to determine that he’s a good run blocker, we can see how successful he was on pull blocks or blocks at the second level. If a cornerback is getting beaten often, is there a certain route causing him difficulties? All of the data is collected in order to build a detailed picture of each player’s performance and production over the course of a season.

The Basics

Each grade given is between +2.0 and -2.0, with 0.5 increments and an average of 0.0. A positive intervention in the game earns a positive grading and vice-versa. Very (very) few plays draw a +/-2.0 rating.

Another way of looking at the “0” grade is viewing it as the “expected” grade for an NFL player. We expect an NFL quarterback to accurately throw a 6-yard curl route against off-coverage on 1st-and-10, and whether or not his WR gets tackled for a 6-yard gain or breaks a tackle for a 70-yard touchdown, the quarterback’s grade remains the same.

The average grade, or what we would typically expect of the average player, is therefore defined as zero. In reality, the vast majority of grades on each individual play are zero and what we are grading are the exceptions to this.

The varying degrees of positive and negative grades add a little bit more context than a simple plus and minus systems. An offensive lineman might surrender a sack on a given play, but how quickly was he beaten? Allowing a defender to slip past and get into the quarterback’s face in 1.9 seconds is obviously much worse than allowing that same sack in 2.7 seconds, so while both plays are negatives, they certainly won’t carry the same exact grade.

Using that same example, if the pressure is surrendered in 1.9 seconds and the quarterback sidesteps the sack, it’s certainly not indicative of the offensive lineman’s pass-blocking acumen, so there’s no reason to change his grade because he “only” surrendered a pressure and not a sack. The goal of the grading is to isolate individual performance as much as possible, fully realizing that there is always a certain level of dependency on teammates in football.

Performance-Based Scouting

We offer a different type of scouting, strictly based on performance and not technique or upside. Obviously after watching thousands of plays per week we have a feel for what good technique looks like, but we’re looking for how well a player did his job. We are looking for the result of that poor technique, not the poor technique itself. If poor technique results in a positive play, that is graded at the same level as good technique yielding a positive play. Did the lineman make the block he attempted, by whatever means? We realize that, over time, poor technique will lead to more negative plays, but our emphasis is on each individual play, and sometimes poor technique gets the job done.

Traditional scouting may describe a player’s explosiveness off the edge, but we can tell you how often a rusher actually got pressure to the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle. Other scouting reports will often describe a cornerback’s hip swivel, but we’ll look at how well he actually plays in coverage. A player’s athleticism is irrelevant in our system, unless it leads to productive on-field performance.

Essentially, we’ve created a new type of scouting that strictly looks at performance, not necessarily the process that gets there. In our dealings with NFL clients, we’ve referred to this as supplying the “what” as they supply the “why.” We can tell a team that an offensive tackle gives up an inordinate amount of bullrush pressure and they can determine if it’s a lack of technique, functional strength, or perhaps a combination of the two.

Quantifying what we see on film allows us to funnel out the “highlights” that our brain tries to create when evaluating players.

How We Grade

There are two main processes that are used to come up with the grades: player participation and the actual grading process. Player participation is more black and white as it consists of which players are on the field, where and general information about the actions they performed (rush the passer, drop into coverage, stay in to pass block, etc).

This process is performed by two separate analysts on two separate spreadsheets. Each spreadsheet is then compared and any discrepancies are reviewed by a third analyst in order to ensure near-100 percent accuracy. We’ve found that both blind runs are generally at least 99.7% accurate and once the games are checked, we’re confident that our work is very close to 100% by mid-week (actually stands at 99.98%).

As for the grading process, it starts as soon as a game is completed. Each play consists of two basic sections, one for the grading and one for stat collection, which would include detail such as (but by no means limited to) which gap the run goes through or which route was thrown on a pass.

The grading for each game passes through three individuals (two who grade every player on every play) to ensure that the grading and stat collection is thoroughly checked and critiqued. This ensures that both our procedures and the interpretation of each play is rigorously checked and consistently applied.

Using All-22

While we feel strongly about our ability to grade games based on the broadcast footage, the All-22 has been an invaluable addition to our processes. The original analyst is instructed to flag any plays from the broadcast footage that need more information or a better view from the coach’s film. The second and third analysts are then able to pinpoint these plays along with others to get a clearer, more decisive look at every play. The use of All-22 has also allowed us to expand our analysis of special teams plays into greater depth and breadth than is possible from broadcast footage.

When We Grade

Each game is graded within the first 24 hours of completion and new for 2014, our goal is to have every game completed and up on the site by 8:00 AM Monday morning. Our review processes are then completed no later than the end of Tuesday which allows us to finalize our grades and statistics for the week by the end of Wednesday.

Normalization and What the Grades Mean

Once we’ve got the raw grades we could leave it there, but this would lead to a number of problems.

For example, our pass protection grading methodology is a fault based system, only negative grades are awarded. Consequently the “perfect score” as a raw grade is 0, However, what if a lineman plays half the number of passing plays of another guy and they both score 0? What allows you to understand the second has done the better job? This is where Player Participation comes in: To fully understand how a player has performed, we need to know how many plays he’s participated in and what role he performed.

So when we look at, say, a tight end, we need to know how many plays he spent out in pass routes, how many times he blocked for the run and how many times he stayed in to block for the pass. To this number we then apply a normalization factor to set the AVERAGE player in that facet of the game to 0.

What you may notice looking at the “By Position” tab is that not all of the average grades in each season comes to 0. This is because the same normalization factors are calculated from a number of seasons and are applied to all seasons. This allows for comparison of performances at the same position not only within seasons but across them.

Normalization gives the grades their full setting as a performance indicator for an individual over his full body of work on a per-game, per-season and per-play basis.

How subjective is the Grading?

Many people say that as soon as you start grading, you bring subjectivity into your work. Obviously, to some degree, that’s true.

However, there’s also subjectivity around whether a play was a QB run for negative yardage or a sack, if an assist on a tackle should be awarded and if a catch was dropped or not. Sure, you can come up with a set of rules to determine which is which, but in the end, at the borderline between one and the other, it’s always subjective. It comes down to a judgment call.

The real trick of grading is to define a clear set of rules, encompassing each type of play. If your rules are thorough and precise enough, the answers just fall out. It becomes as easy as determining the dropped pass that hit the TE right between the numbers.

Statistics in their raw form are considered objective. But in our opinion, with the small number of NFL games played each season, raw stats are very often unintelligent. If a QB throws three interceptions in a game but one came from a dropped pass, another from a WR running a poor route and a third on a Hail Mary at the end of the half, it skews his stats by far too great an amount to be useful. Our grading allows us to bring some intelligence to the raw numbers and with many different sets of eyes getting a look at each game, we’re able to avoid the individual biases that may arise if only one person was responsible for grading the game.

How accurate are the Statistics and Grading?

Our player participation data has been confirmed as 99.96% accurate. As for the grading, through our interactions with many NFL teams, we feel as strongly about the accuracy of the grades. Whether looking at teams in a broad snapshot or on a play-by-play basis, our feedback from NFL personnel departments has always been extremely positive.

Although we are more than happy with the accuracy (and the constant improvement in accuracy) of the individual areas of our grades, the final “overall” grade is one that is cause for much discussion among NFL fans and the PFF staff as well.

For example, we’re happy with how the pass-blocking and run-blocking grades are constructed for offensive linemen, the balance those two skills are given to create an overall grade will vary from fan to fan, coach to coach and scheme to scheme. This is an area we are hoping to improve in the future, allowing fans to input their own weightings at the “By Position” page. This would provide the option to come up with their own overall grading depending upon how they view the different skills that make up an individual position.

FAQ

How accurate can grading be if you don’t know the call?

For the most part, it’s pretty clear what each player’s assignment is on a given play. Either way, we are grading what a player does and how he reacts on each play, regardless of the call. For an offensive lineman, even if we don’t know if an offensive lineman is asked to execute a reach block or simply ride his man out of the play, if he’s stood up at the line of scrimmage, it’s clear that he didn’t execute his assignment well.

There are certainly some instances during games present a clouded view of a player’s assignment, and in those instances, we err on the side of “0” grade as we try to avoid guessing as much as possible.

What makes you qualified to grade?

We have an extremely detailed grading process that is gaining more respect in NFL circles every year. Feedback from NFL personnel departments has been extremely positive, whether looking at players in a general sense or on a play-by-play basis. We feel that the process that has been developed creates a very accurate representation of what happens on NFL playing fields every season.

As for the training process, each analyst is put through a rigorous training process in order to get up to speed on our system so as to keep all analysts viewing the game through similar eyes. Our grading process has continued to evolve every year as we constantly try to improve how we evaluate football players.

While we acknowledge that our grading is not perfect, after watching thousands of plays every year, we feel that we have a good idea of what “good” and “bad” football looks like and positive feedback about our grading system has backed up that point.

Do NFL teams use your grades?

Yes. We have a number of direct clients within the NFL that use our data for personnel decisions and game management, we also have non-clients that have used our grades as an internal check against their own pro scouts. Most, if not all, teams have at least the bare minimum website subscription.

Our grades and stats are also heavily involved in contract negotiations as agents and front offices use our data to build their case either for or against potential free agents.

How open to analyst bias is the process?

There is always the chance that bias can creep into the analysis process, but we work hard to contain it through our training and review processes. Each analyst is trained extensively before being allowed to grade live games to ensure that everyone is on the same page. For each game, a first run is done on the game that is then checked by another analyst. If there are any questions about a particular grade, it is sent to one of our lead analysts for a final ruling. Due to the training and review processes, we feel strongly about our ability to remain as consistent as possible despite football being such a complicated game.

How can you be right 100% of the time?

This is similar to our previous question about grading plays without the play call. We don’t necessarily expect that our work will be 100 percent accurate (though it’s always the goal), but we feel very confident that we’re extremely close to that mark. When going through our grades on individual plays with members of NFL front offices, scouts, and former players we’ve gotten very strong feedback with very few grades questioned during our studies.

Why don’t you name the analysts who work on certain games?

Given the numbers of eyes that see each game, we don’t feel it’s necessary to name our analysts (though a simple look at our re-focused articles can be quite telling). Each game of analysis goes through at least three sets of eyes, just for the grading. Because of our rigorous training process and extensive review process for each game, we try to eliminate individual analyst bias as much as possible.

I think we want Skrine, just not at the price he is going to command.

It makes sense though. We just invested in a first round cornerback. That means we have a significant amount of money in a cb who would be playing 3rd string cb. As much as it'd be amazing to keep Skrine, it's hard to justify paying him with Gilbert on the payroll.

Any news on us tagging Gibson, Robertson, and Bademosi? ...would hate to loose any of them

So, the thinking is to get rid of the productive player and roll w/the guy who sucked last year.

Yep, following up one mistake w/another is always a great idea.

So, the thinking is to get rid of the productive player and roll w/the guy who sucked last year.

Yep, following up one mistake w/another is always a great idea.

Can we also say Gilbert has the potential of being better. If he plays to expectation this year, you are overpaying Skrine. I think you are making this decision far to simple.

I'll bet Farmer is wanting to sign Skrine to a one or two year contract. Skine is looking at long term.

The Browns have reportedly made re-signing CB Buster Skrine their top priority, but he’s already found interest from eight NFL teams.

Sounds like Skrine wants out of this mess and who could blame him? He's gone so an already weak team is getting weaker.

What makes it 'sound like' he wants out?

Can we also say Gilbert has the potential of being better. If he plays to expectation this year, you are overpaying Skrine. I think you are making this decision far to simple.

I'll bet Farmer is wanting to sign Skrine to a one or two year contract. Skine is looking at long term.

It sounds like Buster wants to make as much money as possible. IMO there is nothing wrong with that seeing every NFL player is 1 play away from having his career ended. I would hate to lose him but it is a business.

whose microscope? lol I mean seriously. Look he let Ward and DQ walk last year and we brought in Dansby and Whitner. We will offer Buster what we consider a good deal and he may stay or he may go with someone offering a greater deal. He is a #2 here and for other teams he will be a #1 and if they are gonna pay him #1 money, we arent likely to match.

Buster was undervalued in his first 2 seasons and overvalued after this one. He picked the right time to have his big year. He is one of my favorite players but he isnt irreplaceable.

[quote=bugs]Here's how it works I guess - the haters that want to pile on Farmer regardless of what he does never actually offer a solution. They won't say that Farmer needs to be fired or that Skrine should be signed unless he wants more than $X mill a year. . . . All they do is try and stay within the white safe neutral zone of not saying much (other than the hating) and then after the event they show how clever they were with their hindsight. Just like JM .... it didn't matter that they liked him and thought he was worth the risk last year .... all they want to do now is hate on Farmer for the pick. Yeah it's simple. I never saw anyone talk about beautiful route trees until Shany was goneski... then it was a big deal. Gee I wonder why.

I like Skrine - I like him more than PFF likes him but I trust their opinion more than my own. I'd add value on Skrine because he is a pro and 'plays like a Brown' ..... but there is a limit.

In addition to describing many posters on here, you also just described Tony Grossi.

What makes it 'sound like' he wants out?

?? We need to resign him, There aren't a lot of good #2's in the league. I just don't get the"isn't irreplaceable" part, especially since we have NO ONE currently matching the level of production as he puts out not named Haden.

In addition to describing many posters on here, you also just described Tony Grossi.

Can we also say Gilbert has the potential of being better. If he plays to expectation this year, you are overpaying Skrine. I think you are making this decision far to simple.

I'll bet Farmer is wanting to sign Skrine to a one or two year contract. Skine is looking at long term.

The market determines the value and I would rather see the Browns sign Skrine to show that they do value their own players.

There is also a PR advantage to signing Skrine...

...if Skrine signs somewhere else, the word will be that Cleveland is so screwed up that their own players don't want to return.

...if the Browns pay what is needed to insure Skrine stays, it sends a message that our own players like playing for Pettine and the Browns do value their own players

It might help to send a message to other FA, Cleveland is not such a bad place to be.

Nothing bothers me more than seeing the Browns pay a premium for someone else's player and allowing our own player to get away because we didn't want to pay a premium for him.

Skrine seems to be a proven guy. I don't think I let him walk just because I paid big bucks for a 1st rounder that thus far, hasn't panned out. Bird in the hand so to speak.

But also, I don't believe Gilbert is a lost cause either. He still has a tremendous upside and I expect him to pan out.

I wanna keep them both and we have the budget to buy both loaves of bread.. You can never had too man DB's

j/c

I see all of this as signs that Skrine doesn't want to be here. And the reasoning as to why is simple. Farmer drafted Gilbert. That sends a direct sign to Skrine IMO.

This organization has plans to replace you. They invested a major draft pick in order to do so. With making such a move, they tipped their hand in showing you that you aren't a piece of the puzzle in their long term plans.

So what would a logical response be to this? Find a team willing to produce a long term contract with the money to show you are a part of the long term plans. With the guaranteed money that goes along with it.

This puts the Browns between a rock and a hard place. You did in fact attempt to upgrade from Skrine by drafting Gilbert. Your ultimate goal in doing so was to upgrade from Skrine. So now you're forced to go against those plans and vastly overpaying for Skrines services or go ahead with your plan.

I can see a serviceable veteran signed as a stopgap measure until Gilbert develops but not in them making the long term, guaranteed type contract that Skrine will command.

I'm not saying I like that outcome, but when looking at it from both sides I can see this as the most likely outcome.

I don't really see it that way. I mean if you were Skrine, and they just invested a 1st round draft pick last year as your eventual replacement, wouldn't you want to go somewhere with a commitment to make you a long term part of their plan?

If you are the Browns who just spent a top 10 draft pick to replace Skrine, would you want to tie up a long term contract with 10's of millions in guaranteed money for a player you're looking to replace?

‘Play Like A Brown.’ So those guys that come out here and they are passionate, they are competitive, they're relentless, they're accountable, all of those pieces of the puzzle we're looking for, and they're easily demonstrated in their day-to-day work

I don't really see it that way. I mean if you were Skrine, and they just invested a 1st round draft pick last year as your eventual replacement, wouldn't you want to go somewhere with a commitment to make you a long term part of their plan?

If you are the Browns who just spent a top 10 draft pick to replace Skrine, would you want to tie up a long term contract with 10's of millions in guaranteed money for a player you're looking to replace?

I don't really see it that way. I mean if you were Skrine, and they just invested a 1st round draft pick last year as your eventual replacement, wouldn't you want to go somewhere with a commitment to make you a long term part of their plan?

If you are the Browns who just spent a top 10 draft pick to replace Skrine, would you want to tie up a long term contract with 10's of millions in guaranteed money for a player you're looking to replace?

Wouldn't the contract they offer Skrine have way more bearing than anything they did last year?

That's what will send the message today.

Hell, we may end up fined for NOT spending enough this year.

you think farmer wasnt text and expressing concerns in the film room with the coaching staff because skrine was starting over gilbert? you think maybe skrine heard about it?

Where on earth do you come up with this stuff?

Next CB who could surprise with his payday is Buster Skrine. Have already been told by teams they bowed out b/c price got too rich.

On Buster Skrine:



Link

...jc...

With reports that resigning Skrine is a high priority for the Browns front office and with a bunch of cap dollars to spend...if our front office can't resign Skrine, one of our own, we got problems.

Ray Farmer is under the microscope..

In a way i agree, but just because we have the most money doesn't mean we need to be stupid about it.

Might be a lot like Bodden when he left. Maybe the teams doesn't view Skrine as highly as the fans. Bodden left here to upset fans but pretty much flopped his way out of the picture. Is he still playing anywhere?

Especially when you can roll extra cap room over to the next year.



This will make people feel old. Bodden is 33 and last played an NFL game in 2011.

what concerns do you think he was expressing in the film room with the coaching staff? the flavor of the gatorade?

there is that common sense thing again.

Lot of interest in TE Jordan Cameron. #Browns, #Raiders, #Broncos, #Seahawks in play. #Jags an option too if they don't sign Julius Thomas.

I worry about you sometimes... saywhat

I wonder if we are thinking about signing Julius Thomas? Or, is he too good?

I wonder if we are thinking about signing Julius Thomas? Or, is he too good?

So, the thinking is to get rid of the productive player and roll w/the guy who sucked last year.

Yep, following up one mistake w/another is always a great idea.

The Browns have made Skrine their top priority to re-sign, but those plans might be foiled. Skrine, the starter opposite Pro Bowler Joe Haden for the past two seasons, has made it known he wants to test the open market, and he'll likely receive some lucrative offers

j/c

I see all of this as signs that Skrine doesn't want to be here. And the reasoning as to why is simple. Farmer drafted Gilbert. That sends a direct sign to Skrine IMO.

This organization has plans to replace you. They invested a major draft pick in order to do so. With making such a move, they tipped their hand in showing you that you aren't a piece of the puzzle in their long term plans.

So what would a logical response be to this? Find a team willing to produce a long term contract with the money to show you are a part of the long term plans. With the guaranteed money that goes along with it.

This puts the Browns between a rock and a hard place. You did in fact attempt to upgrade from Skrine by drafting Gilbert. Your ultimate goal in doing so was to upgrade from Skrine. So now you're forced to go against those plans and vastly overpaying for Skrines services or go ahead with your plan.

I can see a serviceable veteran signed as a stopgap measure until Gilbert develops but not in them making the long term, guaranteed type contract that Skrine will command.

I'm not saying I like that outcome, but when looking at it from both sides I can see this as the most likely outcome.

You know...........there were quite a few really good posts on this thread since last I checked, but then you and a couple of others had to resort to the insult strategy again. I get that you love this FO and they can do no wrong at all and the last FO could do no right and the one before that could do no wrong and the one before that could do no right.............but.......

.............when there is actually a good conversation going on, could you give it a rest? Just for a little bit? Please?

Anyway........Pit made some great points. A couple of guys debated him w/reason and logic. I don't know who is right or wrong. Most likely there is truth in both arguments. But I really liked the discussion. It got me to thinking and that is always a good thing.

I really don't know the answer to the debate, but I really like the points you guys brought up. Thanks for the interruption of the Farmer is either a god or a devil nonsense.

Hoyer reportedly signing w Houston tomorrow.

I'm not sure if Hoyer crumbled as much as the entire Offense. I mean, when he was performing well, we have a pretty decent running game.

once we stopped being able to run the ball, everything went to hell in a hand basket. including Hoyer. the only thing that kept us in games was our D!

(Garbage), they’re having all sorts of issue getting players to buy in and take deals

I'd be worried about Thomas' success without Manning. Peyton has made a few tight ends some money.

we aren't apparently targeting any.

Wow some good talent is walking and we aren't apparently targeting any. What great strategy. Must be relying on that stellar draft history. I just can't wait for the season to start. prediction..."PAIN!"

Going to say this again, the Browns have talked to MANY and want their discussions to remain quiet, by request

This is simply not true. What could be true is none of them want to come here.

Mary Kay Cabot ‏@MaryKayCabot 10m10 minutes ago
#browns have re-signed Exclusive Rights FA OL Ryan Seymour.

were set now!!!!!!!!!

With this and resigning rb Drauhn, we're going right to the top now!

I agree! Again, who could blame them!

Actually Manning struggled without Thomas.

I'm certainly not sticking up for this FO in any way. But having been on this board for many years, I have heard this same sentiment over and over again going into the FA signing period every year.

I have to admit, I'm underwhelmed to this point in FA..

There is a contingent on here that desperately wants us to sign one of the marquee free agents... so they can complain about how we overpaid...

I have to admit, I'm underwhelmed to this point in FA..

i think your wrong. people see talent going out and no real talent replacing it.

Oh Pblack actually Farmer was in the film room during the coaches film review on Mondays...he didn't have to text

yea. im the one that showed you and mempis that not only was he harrasing the coching staff with text but that he would do it on coach film review day too. knew you couldnt stay away lmao.

You did??

"You know nothing, Jon Snow."

HAHAHA very good.

Jon Snow is the bastard son

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow

really bringing my dead mother into it?

Sure. If you want to take it in some sort of literal sense .

Or you could assume I wanted to use a pop culture reference to suggest you have no clue what you're saying and are making baseless assumptions because you don't like Farmer.

no pettine said he was there with the whole coaching staff and when he disagreed with something he would ask questions. now you takee that any way you want but i still say he had no buisness doing that in front of the whole staff.

while farmer has a right to question coaching it should be 1 on 1 with the HC.


Haha. This is completely different from what you said originally. Also, I'd be interested to see what article you referred to. This sounds like the article questioning why Scheiner was in the film room.

Quote:
Pettine said Farmer, who's texts included opinions on playcalling and use of personnel, is very involved in evaluating game tape.

"Ray's very open, very honest, very forward,'' said Pettine. "He was part of our Monday night meetings when we did our post-game audit. We call it our 'after-action report.' We get together as coordinators. He sat in on that. When he had a concern he brought it up and those questions were answered.''


http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/mike_pettine_wasnt_thrilled_wi.html

take it anyway you want. i gave you what i think.

Technically free agency hasn't even started.

Be patient my friend. The signings will come.

Technically free agency hasn't even started.

Be patient my friend. The signings will come.

#Browns tendered qualifying offers to RFAs: FS Tashaun Gipson, DB Johnson Bademosi, DL Ishmaa’ily Kitchen and LB Craig Robertson

That is very grown up of you to say in a debate.

We can rest easy:


Ulrich

pfft you called me a bastard and your trying to say grown up debate?

you said i was mistaken and it was the team president and i showed you were wrong and you ran away like a little girl. some debate. pfft

We can rest easy:


Ulrich

pfft you called me a bastard and your trying to say grown up debate?

you said i was mistaken and it was the team president and i showed you were wrong and you ran away like a little girl. some debate. pfft

We can rest easy:


Ulrich

We can rest easy:


Ulrich

Who said we aren't re-signing Skrine? The last I heard we were still in on him.

Anyone know of the varying levels?

Anyone know of the varying levels?

We can rest easy:


Ulrich

I can not believe we didnt give him a first round tender. Thats just stupid even if no one signs him. In this draft i would easily give up a first for him.

We can still match any offer. I don't see any way Gibson is not on the team next year.

Anyone know of the varying levels?

So far we know Gipson got a two, Robertson got a two, and Bademosi got an original round.

so we cant match the offer and keep him?

so we cant match the offer and keep him?

Whoa, we're going to lose Gipson. Maybe the Giants?

Well, yes we can... but if we really wanted to keep him they would have put a 1st round tender on him. They know it's going to cost a lot more than $3.5 mil / year to keep Gipson. They want the pick.

I don't think any team is going to want to pay Gipson and give up the second round pick.

Could be right. I guess we'll see. I was definitely surprised, though.

I think no protection on Kitchen is a mistake given the premium on NTs in the league.

All 4 of the #Browns RFAs, Gipson, Robertson, Kitchen and Bademosi received 2nd tenders. It was not unexpected for Gipson's camp.

Mark Kay is reporting they were all second rounder tenders.

Mary Kay Cabot ‏@MaryKayCabot 9m9 minutes ago
All 4 of the #Browns RFAs, Gipson, Robertson, Kitchen and Bademosi received 2nd tenders. It was not unexpected for Gipson's camp.

We'll have to wait and see if this is accurated. I would be surprised if Bademosi got a second round tender. $2M+ is a lot for a special teamer.

just making sure we have a team this year. no one with a better choice will come here.

To recap, for Browns RFAs: 2nd round tender for Gipson/Robertson, original (low) tender for Kitchen/Bademosi

Don't little boys also run away from things?

I'm surprised too. I thought it would have been a first round tender.

Yes we can.

They were referring to giving a 1st round tender to Gipson.

I think we did him a favor.. With a 1st round tender, no one would touch him..

A 2nd round tender at least allows him to go out and try to find a good deal, that we would eventually match..

Gipson is awesome. We had better give him a long term deal. He plays LIKE A BROWN!

If they don't re-sign Gipson their credibility with their "motto" will be hollow

If they don't re-sign Gipson their credibility with their "motto" will be hollow

Heck, Skrine "plays like a Brown" more than almost anyone else too

Hoyer to Houston is Happening

Godspeed, Mr. Hoyer....

Hoyer to Houston is Happening

Godspeed, Mr. Hoyer....

j/c

Uh oh......

Steve Doerschuk
@sdoerschukREP
Jags need free safety, had megacheck ready for McCourty before he stayed in NE. Will look at Gipson option from every angle.

Tweet

j/c

Uh oh......

Steve Doerschuk
@sdoerschukREP
Jags need free safety, had megacheck ready for McCourty before he stayed in NE. Will look at Gipson option from every angle.

Tweet

j/c

Uh oh......

Steve Doerschuk
@sdoerschukREP
Jags need free safety, had megacheck ready for McCourty before he stayed in NE. Will look at Gipson option from every angle.

Tweet

I cnt believe we only gave gipson the 2nd round tag. They need to send Farmer for an MRI wait will a brain scan still work when someone's head is obviously up their butt.

j/c

Uh oh......

Steve Doerschuk
@sdoerschukREP
Jags need free safety, had megacheck ready for McCourty before he stayed in NE. Will look at Gipson option from every angle.

Tweet

The staff though should have been anticipating this.

If we gave him a 1st round tender no one would touch him, and he'd either have to sign the tender, and be an UFA next year, or negotiate with us with no real offers to base it off of..

We did him a huge favor.

Technically, turning Gipson into a 2nd round pick would be a huge win for us considering he went undrafted all together, BUT losing a SECOND pro-bowl safety in two years would COMPLETELY SUCK.

Hoping they keep Gipson.

Losing him would almost guarantee we have to take Collins (Safety from Alabama) at either #12 or #19.

Rand Getlin Verified account
@Rand_Getlin
Talented CB Perrish Cox is set to visit the #Browns on Thursday. The #Redskins get his first visit tomorrow, though.

Tweet

From the crazy training sessions that Gilbert has been having with Haden that has been reported, we can hope Cox is our dime corner next year.

Rand Getlin Verified account
@Rand_Getlin
Talented CB Perrish Cox is set to visit the #Browns on Thursday. The #Redskins get his first visit tomorrow, though.

Tweet

j/c

Josh McCown ended up with a bigger contract than Hoyer.

@AlbertBreer: Brian Hoyer's deal in Houston: 2 years, $10.5 million; $4.75 million guaranteed.

tweet

If thats all Hoyer signed for then the only thing this FO was doing was letting him go they hated him for some unknown reason to the point of taking a clearly inferior player to replace him with, and for nothing by NFL standards....

I don't get it at all if true this FO has screwed the pooch....Haslam is clueless get used to it I guess..

How was Mallett given a fair shot? He started two games and then got hurt.

How was Mallett given a fair shot? He started two games and then got hurt.

Or, simply, Hoyer wanted a better shot to be the starter. Every opportunity would be given to JFF. It is what most teams do when they draft a player in the first round. Hoyer has a more favorable chance in either NY or Houston. Both their QBs already were given a fair shot to prove themselves.

If thats all Hoyer signed for then the only thing this FO was doing was letting him go they hated him for some unknown reason to the point of taking a clearly inferior player to replace him with, and for nothing by NFL standards....

I don't get it at all if true this FO has screwed the pooch....Haslam is clueless get used to it I guess..

He is there in case Mallet struggles

j/c

Josh McCown ended up with a bigger contract than Hoyer.

@AlbertBreer: Brian Hoyer's deal in Houston: 2 years, $10.5 million; $4.75 million guaranteed.

tweet

j/c

Josh McCown ended up with a bigger contract than Hoyer.

@AlbertBreer: Brian Hoyer's deal in Houston: 2 years, $10.5 million; $4.75 million guaranteed.

tweet

What is #gmstrong ??

Anyone?

#GMSTRONG

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 2m2 minutes ago
The #Patriots signed former #Browns DE Jabaal Sheard to a 2-year deal worth $11M. $5.5M guaranteed. They liked him in the draft.

So, how many of the Browns free agents has Farmer signed now?

...anyone?

So, how many of the Browns free agents has Farmer signed now?

...anyone?

I hate to be the message-board police, but, unfortunately I'm anal about stupid things. Isn't this thread only about OUR free agents? As in guys on the team that may or may not leave?

Sorry, had to ask.

That is why I posted...

"So, how many of the Browns free agents has Farmer signed now?

...anyone?"

So, how many of the Browns free agents has Farmer signed now?

...anyone?

Marlon Moore and Shaun Draughn as far as I know.

Or, simply, Hoyer wanted a better shot to be the starter. Every opportunity would be given to JFF. It is what most teams do when they draft a player in the first round. Hoyer has a more favorable chance in either NY or Houston. Both their QBs already were given a fair shot to prove themselves.

...the way I have it figured we are tanking it this season to set up the draft for next year.

4?

In all honesty, with the amount of talent (yes we actually have that) that we have (and can still get more)

I don't think it's at all possible for us to get the #1 pick.. Probably won't even be in the top 5..

If things go bad, I'd see at worse, 5-11.. And that's picking 6 through 10 range in an average year..

I have no problem saying we could probably win 6+ games next year..

But I assume that just means I'm an idiot FO lover who knows nothing about football..

But I assume that just means I'm an idiot FO lover who knows nothing about football..

Honestly.

Jabaal Sheard signing with New England stings, but the guy wasn't irreplaceable. He was stout against the run, but merely average in pass coverage and rushing the passer. I liked him, but didn't love him.

Jordan Cameron has nothing but injury issues, and he doesn't want to be here (as he's admitted to media). Let him go.

Atyba Rubin under performed last year and is getting up there in age. I like Bryant, Winn, Taylor and Bryant better, plus I'm 95% sure we'll be drafting a DT early this year.

Losing Buster Skrine hurt, but it sounds like we'll be in the market for another veteran to replace him, plus we have Gilbert, Williams and Desir.

None of these guys were irreplaceable....

Gipson & Robertson need signed to long term deals though. 100% agree there.

That Cameron deal shows how badly he wanted to leave. I doubt that we had his contract structured with a "game by game active" paycheck. I mean, if the guy goes on IR he doesn't get paid? Wow. I cannot believe that the NFLPA will look kindly upon that one ..... but I doubt that the Browns had that clause in their deal.

He wanted to leave, and he did. Oh well. A guy who badly wants to be elsewhere is not the kind of guy you can build around anyway.

I just have a hard time seeing the NFL approving a contract where the player only gets paid on a weekly basis if he is healthy and able to play. That seems like a really questionable tactic t me, and one that could lead to problems if a player feels he can play, and the team disagrees. JMHO, but I expect the NFL to take a long, hard look at that deal.

That already happens.

He agreed to the contract - while he had another offer on the table anyway. It is what it is - signing bonus, plus salary, plus incentives.

The ball is in his court as for any injury that may occur - team gets a decent tight end that WILL get the signing bonus PLUS his salary, PLUS an incentivized $1,562,500.00 if he plays at least 10 games.

The team is protecting themselves - he needs to protect himself. Since he signed, it would appear he's comfortable with the contract. End of story.

The question is, would you want the Browns to pay that contract to him?

I wanted to retain him, but I'm not at all sure he's worth that. Guess we'll find out right?

No, that is NOT the question.

Look, he's gone.

The question is Ytown thinking the contract he signed isn't fair, and thinking the nflpa will chime in on it.

Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
#Raiders sign RB Trent Richardson to a 2-year worth $3.9M total, source said. It can go up to $4M per year based on incentives.


He got more than I thought he could.

No, that is NOT the question.

Look, he's gone.

The question is Ytown thinking the contract he signed isn't fair, and thinking the nflpa will chime in on it.

My final thought on our departed FAs...

None of them were highly sought after.. Two of them signed modest deals in places that are better off going forward than we are now (NE, Mia)

It's not as if we lost out in a multiple team, high priced bidding war, or that our FAs got ridiculous contracts..

They were average, to possibly above average FAs, and we didnt bring them back. It won't kill us, just like bringing them back wouldnt have been the key to our success..

Why would the NFLPA have a problem with it?

He still receives a check. A BIG check in the form of bonuses and salary. The rest is simply an active status bonus that may or may not be reached.

Very similar to other players who may or may not hit incentives such as starting time. I believe you will find that Hoyers contract here had incentive bonuses tied into starting a certain percentage of the snaps.

I simply don't see the difference here.

2012 Top Five:

1. Luck
2. RG3
3. RIchardson
4. Kalil
5. Blackmon

Outside of Luck....yikes. Hell, the overall top ten isn't pretty to look at either.

Fairly certain Jordan Camerom told the media he wanted out of Cleveland, so what does it matter? Why continue debating.

Seattle to host Rubin

Going from the Browns to the Seahawks? Talk about a downgrade. . .

I am not sure what role Rubin would play for Seattle, but I wish him nothing but success.

Going from the Browns to the Seahawks? Talk about a downgrade. . .

I am not sure what role Rubin would play for Seattle, but I wish him nothing but success.