One of the key factors that no one wants to talk about, especially those who are running this franchise, just how far did analytics figure into the results of the 2021 season?

Ask that question to anyone in control of Browns franchise and you get a "canned answer" such as "analytics is just a tool" to use and nothing more.

Depo and his gang of analytical (non-football) staff are being allowed to apply their use of analytics in all aspects of the football operation. The offensive game plan that Stefanski uses is subjected to review by the analytics gang.

...The defensive game plans of DC Joe Woods are also subject to review by the analytics crew.
...the same for special teams coach Mike Priefer.

To quote a recent article..."The Browns have embraced analytics in all aspects of the football operation." link

We have watched a football team that went 11-5 in 2020 regular season and 1-1 in the playoffs. It was "a historic season" for the Cleveland Browns and everyone agreed, the future looked bright, especially after the addition of free agents and draft prospects that were made in the off season. So even named the Browns as potential Super Bowl team in 2021.

The Browns looked to improve the franchise everywhere, with the same coaching staff returning and the same OC and DC...the improvements made to the roster in many key positions. It would make sense that the Browns were expecting improvements on the field in 2021.

But, virtually unnoticed and un-scrutinized by the fans, media and professional football analysts were the changes that were made to franchise in the area under Depodesta's control...the analytics department. Depodesta was given the green light to hire as many additions to his analytics department as Depo wanted. The Browns shot to top in the size of their analytics department among all NFL teams.

There is no mention of the football experience of anyone working in the analytics department, especially the most recent additions. As mentioned above, the work of the Browns analytics department touched all aspects of the Browns football operation.

Depodesta and his analytics department answer to no-one..they virtually work in secret and the amount of influence over the Browns football operation remains an unknown. Great gig if you can get it !

IMO, it is time to expose the amount of influence and control Depo and his analytics department have been allowed to have over the football operations of the Browns.

analytics no team that had as many injuries as us went to the playoffs.
this was straight out of the nfl network.
sorry guys analytics is here to stay.

After looking at this team all season, your problem is... Depo?


He is so far down the list of (potential) issues right now.

And a mediocre team that turned into an 11-5 season last year was also using analytics when they accomplished that. Face it, the injuries and many factors went into what we saw this season. If you're going to blame analytics for what we saw this season then you're going to have to give analytics credit for what we did last season. Same people, same system, different results.

LMAO

Tougher schedule too but we were in every game except for Arizona and New England. We all know we lost a lot of close games so with some solid additions and hopefully a return to good health those games can be won.

Our QB was injured early in the season... Injuries to other key players, Covid and as mentioned, a tougher schedule.... I guess I don't see blaming Analytics!

I would blame injuries first and foremost, then I would blame lousy play calling, lack of WR consistency/play making ability, COVID, tougher schedule, bad refs, bad luck, bad special teams all before I would blame the analytics guys. What would the real difference be with the roster had we scrapped them going into 2021?

Oh no…...here we go. Please don’t start off 2022 this way.

This is an insane post.

Folks, I don't see where mac is placing full blame on analytics or dismissing other factors such as injuries, strength of schedule, and just poor coaching/play, he's just starting a conversation about the increased role analytics is playing.

I get that analytics is here to stay, as it should be... but as we have discussed before, analytics in a vacuum without football knowledge application, is useless.

I don't think any of us really know how analytics is being used or what decisions it is influencing and how it is influencing them.. we just don't know and we probably never will. Neither this organization, nor any other, is likely to come out and tell us how, exactly, they are using analytics.

Would seem to me that if we are following analytics, Chubb would be on the field almost all the time and (especially this year) he would have been the focal point of every game plan, we would run a ton of play-action when we throw, we would very rarely go empty backfield... because those are our most successful options, that's what analytics should tell us to do more of..... but we don't do any of those things...

Maybe it all stems back to Baker's injury because our success last year was stretch run, play action off the stretch run, then the roll out throws.. and maybe Mayfields injuries have prevented him from executing those play actions and designed roll outs because they have been all but non-existent, choosing to park Mayfield in the pocket against a defense that is stopping the run on it's way to rushing the QB.. it hasn't worked.

And if Mayfields strengths aren't available, then I would think analytics would say to get him off the field...

Wow mac, I never thought of you as a blame the science kind of guy. The analytics is not the problem, but maybe how the coaches use the facts/math is misunderstood or misapplied. Either way, it's not the analytics department.

It sure didn't read that way to me.

IIRC, mac was trying to lead some weird crusade vs DePo either last offseason or the one before. If I have this wrong, please correct me.

You are not wrong. This one is my favorite....

"Depodesta and his analytics department answer to no-one..they virtually work in secret and the amount of influence over the Browns football operation remains an unknown."

#SecretLairSanDiego

Well, here we are again. Looking for the elephant (read: scapegoat) in the room that will explain how everything went wrong.
That elephant is not analytics.

There may be problems with how we apply the information concerning the upcoming opponent.

There may be problems with how directly it affects game-day playcalling.

Those are human problems.

The idea that Depo pulls all the strings and we have puppets at every level playing slave to algorithms is ridiculous.

With that said, there are some real corrections on the horizon in how we, and other teams, apply analytics to the game. This frenzy to "go" on fourth down is one of them. We have years of data (that will continue to influence decisions) that is all predicated on opponents not expecting teams to go for it on fourth down. That is no longer true. Will the analytics change? You bet! But it will take a while for the numbers to bear witness... and take a while for those that are dead-set on following the numbers to quit being a slave to them.

Think about this: If you flip a coin and it comes up heads nine times in a row... what are the odds of heads the tenth time?? Analytics says 1/1024 chance. Is that true??
Absolutely not. It is always a 50/50 proposition. That coin can come up heads from now 'til the end of the universe. But who would bet tails? Nearly everybody... over and over... for as long as it keeps coming up heads. That's a simple example of analytics meeting human nature.

I think the simple "laws of the universe" have thwarted our best laid plans for much of the season. And that may be a tip of the cap to a place where we are "over-using" the numbers. We seem like a team that has adopted certain philosophies because the numbers are extreme. It's a commitment that says "no matter what, over time, this is the right decision", based on mathematical models. The problem is, the universe keeps saying "heads again!" It happens, usually at the worst possible time, but it is not the cause of the problem. There are too many layers to the actual problems to blame analytics.

The most surprising thing, to me, is that with all the numbers and the ever-growing team of humans that uses them to project and plot, our team looks tremendously predictable on both sides of the ball. Is it because we're arrogant in the face of adversity? Drunk on the analytics that dictates a certain outcome that simply hasn't come to pass? I'm not sure. But I'm not about to blame the humans creating the models and will continue to blame the humans consuming them.

Just my .02

If the choice is Analytics or Bullying, I choose bullying. It's football!

Analyze that!

I wonder how many of you "that claim" to know so much about the Browns use of analytics would care to provide a source for your opinions?

Let me hear it boys...

Tell us how much or, if any of Stefanski's offensive game plan(s) are being scrutinized and reviewed by the analytics department? Does anyone belivieve of you really believe that Stefanski is making his own decisions concerning his offensive game plan(s) or is Stefanski is being required to submit his game plan to the analytics department for review, before it is finalized ?

Last season with the COVID Crisis, I believe Browns fans witnessed an example of Stefanski's offensive talent when he accepted the position of OC and before the analytics department was doubled in size..after the Browns 2020 12-6 season/playoff record.

Then as all Browns fans witnessed...everything concerning the Browns offense "CHANGED".

The return of the Mac is out for analytics.

[social:tweet][/social]

Same.... I don't care about someone's 'football experience'.... I care if they can contribute to winning... anyone who doesn't think utilizing analytics which is a fancy word for stats and trends is fooling themselves...

Rumors are Dr. Evil’s Depo’s moneyball department, demanded the team change their breakfast from Wheaties to Cornflakes this year due to the data. I agree with you, they’ve gone too far even controlling their nutrition!

I feel 'analytics' has become a catch phrase. Every coach, and every GM, constantly analyzes. From 7th grade up to the pros. What does this person do well, what does that person do well - who can we use the best/most.

Nope.

LOL! So you throw out unsubstantiated claims one after another, and then when we don't believe you, it's on us to disprove said unsubstantiated claims? Lol, that's too hilarious.

YOU are making more claims about the Browns use of analytics than anyone else on Dawgtalkers.

We just have a workable catchphrase for it now.
And it's being worked to death.

Really??

You're the one making the claims. It seems you are the one that is claiming you know so much about the Browns inner workings of analytics. Where's your source?

He called DePodesta’s lawyer.

...CFRS...

Depodesta's lawyer...?...that would by YOU, right...the defender of everything Depodesta...he can do no wrong in your eyes because he knows analytics!

But, in the 2016 lead up to draft, Depo DID SCREW UP...BIG TIME... by refusing to even interview Dak Prescott just before the Senior Bowl game. DEPO was simply ASSUMING that "the guy" driving a white 2016 Cadillac Escalade in Starkville, Mississippi...HE MUST BE GUILTY OF SOMETHING and unworthy of consideration by the Cleveland Browns new leader of the ANALYTICS DEPARTMENT.

Depo might have made a common mistake made by some folks like Depos, that he knew Dak Prescott WAS GUILTY, before Prescott even faced his accusers in a court of law.

With the superior knowledge of the Browns analytics Chief, Paul DePodesta, the Browns assumed that Precott was guilty of something and unworthy to even be considered in the 2016 draft...Depo and his gang of Browns selected Cody Kessler as their pick to lead the Browns to the playoffs and a potential Super Bowl.

Just one example Depodesta's football knowledge and how much he is doing to make the Browns the most ANALYTICAL team in the NFL.

Source?

Mac you are barking up a weird and speculative alley. As for Dak? He went in the 4th round - using him as a pick to bash Depo? Then the same thing applies to every other FO in the NFL with the exception of the Cowboys. I don't think you are making the argument you think you are making with these claims that seem based 100% on opinion.

you have lost it my friend. Depo had nothing, zip, zero, zilch to do with who got picked in the drafts.

But only all 32 NFL teams passed on Dak 4 times and he was the 37th pick in the fourth round. You mean you can't see how stupid that makes Depo and it must have been some kind of assumption that Dak was a criminal that caused all of this? I mean seriously?

He did talk to Dak's lawyer.

Also, if you want to bring up 2016.....you started an 8 page thread about how the FO screwed up by not pursuing Jared Goff.

Yes, but we could’ve traded Goff for Matthew Stanford! Depo didn’t understand that part of the plan

Correct, but he did plan the Capitol riots as well as releasing the Covid-19 virus on the world.

Missing on Dak Prescott a total of 4 times makes you feel better?...

You didn’t like the Cody Kessler pick?

Sometimes I think every other franchise in the NFL bar None, does more to help it's offense with scheme and using 100% of the field
and just plain understanding offense better than the Browns do on offense.

The Browns, with having to face the AFC north teams, and league biases of such, make it almost impossible that they wouldn't ruin almost any quarterback you could name, including Brady and Rogers and Brees.

But what really matters is, The Browns just don't understand offense!

Here is something to analyze.
Why did it take 14 years, exxag.
and 365 games, exxag.
and a 4th string Quarterback, (Not exxag. Nick Mullens)

for Donovan Peoples Jones to see 7 targets in a singe game, and prove he would miss on more than 50%.

And why would it take all of that for just about
ANY!
Wr. to see 7 or more targets in a singe game unless they were named, #3 TE Harrison Bryant.
Did anyone think #3 TE Harrison Bryant deserved EVERY Single TArget under the Sun? Analyze that.

Every time in 2021 a Browns player on offense made a big play, they spent the next snap on the sidelines.

It is the offense, it was the offense in 2020.

The Browns biggest issue for the last 2 decades is they refuse to build their offense around the skill set of the players. Stefanski is probably the worst I have ever seen at creating and running an offensive scheme that doesn't lean toward his skilled players strengths. Stefanski is also the worst coach I have ever seen in making game time adjustments. I mean this guy is so hopped up on his scheme that if the opponent loaded all 11 players in the box to stop the run he'd use his 3-TE scheme and constantly run trying to prove his scheme will always work. I mean any coach that lets his hobbled QB get sacked 9-times with 4 of those coming from the NFL sack leader going 1-on-1 against a rookie tackle with limited playing experience and never making an adjustment is inexcusable - PERIOD!

Like I've been saying, unless Berry takes control and makes Stefanski give up the play calling and hires a new offensive coordinator that will use our players skill sets, Baker is in for a year worse than 2021 because his WR group will be so weak Stefanski might have to go to a 4-TE set. Currently, the Browns have an offense that is predictable with a QB throwing 30% less passes than the top 10 QB's and is being used as a game manager rather than a weapon with a Head Coach who can't adjust his plan to the defenses being played against him. The hell with the press and the opinions here. When you have a future hall of fame QB like Aaron Rodgers saying "the coaches are putting Baker in bad situations" you have a serious problem. Berry needs to address this quickly or this off season is going to be ugly!

Amen, analytics in MHO is just fancy statistics- which have been used forever. Hudson against Watt, how'd it go. You can't lose your tackles and best sub tackle for multiple games and a beat up QB and expect playoff.....ain't and didn't happen. Go Browns!!!

Every team missing on Dak 4 times makes me understand that it isn't a "Depo problem".

[/color]

Originally Posted by PitDAWG

Originally Posted by mac

Originally Posted by PitDAWG

[color:#993399]But only all 32 NFL teams passed on Dak 4 times and he was the 37th pick in the fourth round. You mean you can't see how stupid that makes Depo and it must have been some kind of assumption that Dak was a criminal that caused all of this? I mean seriously?

Missing on Dak Prescott a total of 4 times makes you feel better?...

Every team missing on Dak 4 times makes me understand that it isn't a "Depo problem".

Originally Posted by PitDAWG

Originally Posted by mac

Originally Posted by PitDAWG

But only all 32 NFL teams passed on Dak 4 times and he was the 37th pick in the fourth round. You mean you can't see how stupid that makes Depo and it must have been some kind of assumption that Dak was a criminal that caused all of this? I mean seriously?

Missing on Dak Prescott a total of 4 times makes you feel better?...

Every team missing on Dak 4 times makes me understand that it isn't a "Depo problem".

pit...you don't even know enough about the Browns lame effort to judge the QB talent in the 2016 draft to admit that the Browns simply blew Prescott off based on a DUI "CHARGE"...a guy driving a white caddy in Starksville, Mississippi had to be guilty of something, RIGHT?

The Browns analytics department decided that Cody Keesler was the Browns answer at QB in the 2016 draft.

PIT...DID THE BROWNS ANALYTICS (DEPODESTA) GET IT RIGHT?

The Browns Analytics lost the season finale agasint the Bengals,
when at the end of the first half,
they didn't send the FG unit on with 9 seconds to go on 3rd down at the Bengals 15ish yard line!

And if you think, (the game is not over yet, they are still playing it), then you don't see Momentum!!!!

Analytics are trying to figure out how to "not lose" this game for the Browns.

With 4:50 to play the Browns are up 11 and its 3rd and 7 but the enemy had a big play to get them to midfield.

21-10 Browns, OH!
announcers just said a bunch of Browns defenders are on the bench done for the day!

analytics breeds the factory of sadness

The desperation at which you have gone after Depo for a long time now is humorous at best and in reality more sad than anything. I'll ask again, where is your source?

You make accusations but have no evidence. FOUR TIMES every GM in the NFL passed on Precott until the Cowboys took a flier on him in the fourth. And you single out Depo. You are being ridiculous.

Pit...the point I'm making concerning DEPO...he has never been some one of a kind guru when it comes to juding FOOTBALL !

I point out the Browns efforts to find a franchise QB dating back to Dep's first year when he declared that Wentz was not a top 20 QB and pursued Dak Prescott by only submitting some elementary aptitude tests for Dak to complete, then took those tests back to Cleveland for his analysis.

Dep's approach to judging FOOTBALL TALENT led him to select Cody Keesler in the 3rd round of the 2016 draft...

THAT IS DEPO'S RECORD...period.

QUESTION FOR ALL....have the Browns gone "too far" in their use of analytics..?

What’s analytics?

Do YOU think Wentz is a top 20 QB?

Dak was selected by the Cowboys in the 4th round, so Depo (hypothetically, if he were actually making the picks) is at least in good company in not valuing Dak very high at the time.

Depo didn't make the Kessler pick. Who would have rather had that year? There's Dak (again, taken in the fourth, after Goff, Wentz, Lynch, Hackenburg, Brissett, Kessler, Cook). Four picks after Dak, Buffalo took Cardale Jones.

Not far enough!

I want, nay, I demand, all human element be removed and replaced with computers.

Depodesta was hired in January of 2016. The draft was in April. He had been here for four months. Reports I saw said he wasn't actually involved in making those picks but was more of an observer due to his short time in his role with the team and in the NFL in general. That is not "DEPOS RECORD". Do you think Carson Wentz was a top 20 pick? He sure doesn't look like it to me.

First you brought up Jared Goff. Then you brought up Dak who everyone passed on four times and Dallas took a flier on as the 37 pick in the fourth round. Now you bring up Carson Wentz?

Come on man!

I guess the lead in question to that is... does anybody really know how we use analytics or how much we use analytics? Or are we all just speculating based on a few sparse comments that it "impacts every aspect of our team" or whatever the exact quote was...

Because if we are all just speculating, then it becomes very easy, if you like analytics, to assign all of our good decisions to analytics and our bad decisions to human involvement... or the other way around.

Yes just speculating that if analytics was assigned to get you to work in the morning it would use 5 separate means of transportation.

If Analytics was applied to cook a meal in a restaurant, it wouldn't be able to make one edible bite of food without using every cooking utensil in the kitchen. (that's what I think of analytics, only speculation.)

DC...if we take the word of those in charge of running the Browns, analytics is being used as much as possible and as DC referenced above "impacts every aspect of our team".

I did find a comment by Andrew Berry that went a bit further in discribing how much analytics are being utilized by the Browns...

Quote

Since taking over Cleveland’s General Manager job back in 2020, Andrew Berry has made a point to heavily emphasize analytics in all aspects of his football team. From coaching tactics, to player scouting, to sport science techniques, analytics are playing a huge role in multiple facets of the Browns’ organization.

link



This comment from Berry sounds like the Browns might be using analytics more than we realize..and probably more than I suspected.

Given the decline in the performance of the team this season and based on Berry's comment above concerning the Browns use of analytics...how much responsibility should the Browns analytics department take for the decline in the team's performance this season?

zERO.

The only decline was the passing game. The major injury to Mayfield is that major factor, and the somewhat weak WR corp is the other factor. The defense was better than last year. The run game was pretty similar even given the decline in the passing game.

Why don't you tell us how analytics was responsible for a decline in performance this season. With all your rambling, you still haven't connected the dots, outside of saying Depo didn't select Wenz, Goff or Prescott after being on the job for less than half a year..

Which world did that happen in because it sure wasn't our world. Depo has never drafted a player anywhere but inside your head Mac.

Or that statement could mean they're not really using it much at all. That statement says very very little (much like this FO says about pretty much everything).

You're seeing what you want to see.

Are you seriously asking if we're tired of making informed decisions using as much information as is available instead of resorting to a higher degree of guesswork?

prp..would you rather rely upon the opinions of those who are "analytics new hires", who have little OR NO EXPERIENCE IN FOOTBALL AT ANY LEVEL?

Still working this after all this time? EVERY NFL team uses analytics. Thinking you're smarter than all 32 NFL teams isn't a sound argument to be making.

BTW, that is exactly how Stefanski was forced to operate this season.

Depodesta wanted MORE ANALYTICS and he got it...hire as much analytics types as you want Depo...Jimmy thinks that is what produced the 11-5 record in 2020 and punched the Browns ticket to the playoffs...it was all Depodesta and his analytics that got the Browns to the playoffs last year...therefore, Jimma believed that more anal ytics in 2021 would punch the Browns ticket to the Super Bowl...and Depos was given the green light to hire as many Ivy leagers as he wanted because Super Bowl teams are built on ANALYTICS...RIGHT???

Oh dear God, here you go again. There's zero evidence that Stefanski was "forced" to operate this way. You sound like MKC.

And yet there is Stefanski out there "fooling" everyone with his offensive "genius". LOL

Which isn't the point at all. We saw a HC trying to find a way around an injured QB. Last year we saw a HC who had a healthy QB. Not that any of that seems to matter to you and some others.

Evidence?

Your schtick of contantly asking questions of others while never answering those asked of you is beyond old. You've been doing it since you joined this place.

And yet the "genius" had a healthy QB the WHOLE time on the bench. What is the point of having a backup on the roster at that price only to CONTINUE to run a DAMAGED QB out on the field who OBVIOUSLY (unless you are totally blind) cannot perform at the level you need him to to WIN games? Or is it simply that the "genius" didn't think the backup QB had enough game to win? At that point, why the HELL is he on the roster? Stefanski leaves A LOT to be desired as a leader, a talent evaluator and as an in game manager (not even going to discuss his play calling). At what point does common sense kick in? Or can the "genius" simply not see how the lack of health is negatively affecting his QB's ability to perform? I mean seriously (in my best Vince Lombardi voice) WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON OUT HERE? A lot of you may be sold on Stefanski. I'm not. He has just as much to prove in his role as Baker does next season. Berry can do everyone a favor by telling KS to give up play calling or be gone. It's time focus on being a HEAD COACH and understanding what that really means in the NFL. Period.

I take it you didn't watch Keenum play.

Again I ask: Why is he on the roster? Who made THAT call? Are the Browns, as an organization, THAT stupid? No Plan B at QB? Really? On a separate note, any thoughts on Mullins?

I would say that Keenum was signed more because he was familiar with the system than any other reason. What the coaching staff had to decide was whether a healthy Keenum was better than the injured Baker.

From every report Baker did well in practice. Tell me how many actual back up QB's in the NFL are legitimate "plan B's". Hell, a lot of NFL teams don't have a legitimate plan A.

This sounds like speculation and guessing. I don't think you are an authority on reasons Keenum signed with the Browns.

Link? Or just speculation and putting thoughts into peoples heads and putting words or motives in peoples mouths?

That's why I said "I would say". I guess you believe signing a backup that had no clue of anything about our system made more sense? But once again that's speculation on my part.

I know you're not asking, but since you brought it up...

I thought Keenum played fine. Not sure I saw justification of his (relatively) large contract; but he's played well enough to win both times we've seen him in live-fire situations. We didn't play the league's elite either time (by any stretch), and he certainly wasn't making arguments to be a starter with his performances, but I thought he was perfectly fine coming in as a backup in pretty rough situations.

IMO, just or s and giggles, if they had sense as I hoped they would, the Browns would have been in about their 3rd+ year of Ryan Tannehill, as they traded up in the draft for, when they needed a Qb, and Tannehill was on the board, and they selected the Rb Trent Richardson instead. Which would have translated to them not needing a QB as badly, if my memory goes back that far. (And what year did the Browns pass on Deshaun Watson in the draft, was that before Cody Kessler, (I mean Dishone Kiser) or after, becaue Deshaun Watson, imo, checked all the boxes except draft hype. )
ehh, I'm not even sure the Browns actually "passed" on D.Watson, that's a long memory away.

Which is why he is as good or better than most NFL backups. But is that really the question here?

The question become if Baker does well in practice during the week, is cleared to play by the medical team and says he can play, at that point you have to determine who is the best choice to start. It's not like some cut and dry decision some people wish to make it out to be. You can second guess the decision and many people are. But none of us saw his performance in practice to fully understand all that the decision was based on.

If I'm being totally honest I have to say I'm not really sure what it is we're debating anymore.

I think Baker's performance over the year kinda stands on its own, in that he started out the year on fire and then took a sharp turn in the other direction after he got injured. As his injuries mounted, so too did his performance deteriorate further. I think a good amount of his struggles can be attributed to his injuries, but there are elements that are just weaknesses to his game (like not seeing WIDE open receivers). I also think that there are areas of his game that are weaknesses that were exasperated by his injuries. On top of that, we had team injuries (especially to the Oline) that erroded elements of our offense and forced us to rely more on a weakened (and flawed) Baker. This is where, IMO, Stefanski (and to a lesser degree, Berry) should've helped the team out more when our Oline was decimated by injuries. When they didn't, I think they encouraged some of the more conspiracy-leaning folks to come up with the crazier theories on what's going on in Berea.

As I mentioned, I think Baker's performance stands on its own. His contributions to the disappointing season is there for everyone to see if they simply watch the games. I tend to overly-focus on the stuff that's not so obvious.

pit...how bout you tell us who taught Stefanski his analytics before Depodesta hired him...

I'll wait...

Answer me. Are you advocating that they begin to make their decisions with less information and more speculation?
It is a simple Yes or No, because that is *exactly* what that stupid buzzword "analytics" boils down to.

You're only bent out of shape because you feel the guys using that information aren't "football" guys. Period.
The things is, they ARE football guys.

[/color]

Originally Posted by PrplPplEater

Originally Posted by mac

Originally Posted by PrplPplEater

Are you seriously asking if we're tired of making informed decisions using as much information as is available instead of resorting to a higher degree of guesswork?

[color:#FFFFCC]prp..would you rather rely upon the opinions of those who are "analytics new hires", who have little OR NO EXPERIENCE IN FOOTBALL AT ANY LEVEL?

Answer me. Are you advocating that they begin to make their decisions with less information and more speculation?
It is a simple Yes or No, because that is *exactly* what that stupid buzzword "analytics" boils down to.

You're only bent out of shape because you feel the guys using that information aren't "football" guys. Period.
The things is, they ARE football guys.

prp...what would TAMPA BAY DO?

The fine folks with the Minnesota Vikings!

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/...ology-data-analytics-rick-spielman-draft

[/color]

Originally Posted by PrplPplEater

Originally Posted by mac

Originally Posted by PrplPplEater

Are you seriously asking if we're tired of making informed decisions using as much information as is available instead of resorting to a higher degree of guesswork?

[color:#FFFFCC]prp..would you rather rely upon the opinions of those who are "analytics new hires", who have little OR NO EXPERIENCE IN FOOTBALL AT ANY LEVEL?

Answer me. Are you advocating that they begin to make their decisions with less information and more speculation?
It is a simple Yes or No, because that is *exactly* what that stupid buzzword "analytics" boils down to.

You're only bent out of shape because you feel the guys using that information aren't "football" guys. Period.
The things is, they ARE football guys.

IMO, those who have little or NO EXPERIENCE in playing the game of FOOTBALL are always looking for something that they can relate to...if you don't know FOOTBALL...maybe you know something about NUMBERS..! Those who might know something about numbers will therefore ASSUME that they know something about FOOTBALL because they know SOMETHING about NUMBERS AND GRAPHS.

I have some earth-shattering news for those of you that are convinced that you know what football is all about, based on graphs and numbers...what would Tampa Bay do?

Would Tampa Bay do WHAT THE CLEVELAND BROWNS DO?

Simple question for all...what do you believe football is..?

Good thing DePodesta played football in college.

This is getting tough to read.

Why didn't post this last year?

Don't feed the troll. Soon he will bump the locked thread thinking it is long because it is worthy or interesting.

Analytics shows this thread will go 6+ unproductive pages with a high probability of a third round of this 8 months from now.

peen...well look at YOU...

Telling others what subjects and what threads they should be discussing!

Peen...I see that you have declared yourself the one and only "board monitor" for the Dawg Talk Message Board, making up the board rules and attempting to influence the subject matter that you find acceptable for discussion.

You keep asking questions while refusing to answer any. I can see why.

Tampa Bay has Tom Brady. That's what Tampa Bay did.

Analyze why the Browns don't score points in the 2nd half.
And the Browns best scenario is to score a bunch in the 2nd quarter.

It's part of Depo's master plan.

Kevin Stefanski did not come to the Browns as some ANALYTICS WIZKID.

Stefanski spent 14 yrs in the Vikings organization, a franchise not known as a NFL leader in the use of "analytics".

Stefanski's last 6 seasons with the Vikings were spent under the leadership of the Vikings HC Mike Zimmer. Zimmer has never been known as a fan of analytics and he did not rely on analytics in his coaching I mention this fact in an effort to show Browns fans who Stefanski was.

No doubt, Stefanski knew WHO was responsible for hiring him as the Browns HC in 2020. Stefanski likely knew that he was expected to allow the Browns analytics staff to have a degree of access and influence over personnel decisions as well as a degree of influence over the decision making process, such as the analytics influence over the draft process and the evaluation of draft personnel as well as the evaluation of free agent personnel.

THEN COVID CHANGED EVERYONE'S PLANS...it changed the Browns plans under new HC Stefanski along with all the other NFL teams.

Some pre-season games were cancelled and opt-outs for the players was allowed for those who did not want to risk their chances of contracting COVID-19, with some players deciding not to play in 2020.

Remote and zoom meetings were attempted by some teams and Stefanski and the coaching staff he put together "thrived" under these extreme conditions and led the Browns to a 11-5 record and to the playoffs, where the Browns won their first playoff game before losing to the Chiefs.

Stefanski was named Coach of the Year...and Depodesta announced that the analytics department would be expanded, increasing the number of new people who would be analyzing the numbers and providing opinions to the analytics staff based on the new hires and their ability to interpret "those numbers". The opinions being provided, were they based on "football"...?...or were those opinions simply based on "numbers"?

In year two under Stefanski and Depodesta's expanded analytics department...

...honestly, there were times that Stefanski did not look like the same person who won Coach of the Year in 2020. It seemed that the Browns were no longer playing to win but if they had a lead Stefanski became conservative, playing not to lose. There were injuries and COVID to contend with (just like the year before) and the Browns missed the playoffs, losing many games throughout the year that they should have won.

Such a disappointing year...

No word yet from Depodesta on how many more "new numbers guys" he will be adding to the analytics department.

Vikings Rank Among NFL's Most Analytically-Inclined Teams

The Vikings are clearly among the top half of the league when it comes to incorporating analytics into decisions.

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/news/vikings-nfl-analytics-data-espn-rick-spielman

What were you saying?

He doesn't answer questions, he only asks them.

He's the hero dawgtalkers deserves right now, but not the one it needs.

Zimmer the Viking HC who is not a fan of analytics was ranked 19 among the 32 teams according to more recent info.

Again, Stefanski did not come from a Vikings franchise that was a big user of analytics under the leadership of HC Mike Zimmer.

In the 8 years Zimmer was HC for the Vikings, they made the playoffs 3 times with records of 10-6, 13-3, 11-5...and the Vikings never finished worse than 3rd in the NFC North, finishing 2nd/3 times and 3rd/2 times. Not bad for some old-fashioned football coach.

Is Depo a secret agent for the steelers.

https://zonecoverage.com/2022/minne...hire-an-analytics-based-general-manager/

So Paul DePodesta is the king of the franchise, and only does “analytics”, hired a coach who doesn’t care about “analytics”? That seems right.

That's what he's sayin'.

Yes, everything changed since September of 2020. But you may be right. They didn't do nearly as well this year.

That kind of trash may fly in the NFC North, and maybe even in the NFC, but it's not working in the AFC.
K. Stefanski is 6-2 against NFC teams since becoming Head coach of the Browns.
But the Browns play in the AFC, and, this analytics stuff isn't going to be as successful in the AFC as it was in the NFC, because the NFC, actually most of the NFL has weaker divisions, top to bottom, year after year.

He's basing an argument on a HC who was just fired. Timing is everything and his was terrible.

Mac....just remember analytics is just a tool - as good as the person who is to use it to their decision making process. Analytics is not a way of football life.

It is useful in the building process of the team but it must be used wisely. It is useful in developing a game plan and teams tendencies again it must be used wisely. I will never have enough of it and I am so glad we have DepoDesta cause he is one of the best. He is now giving the info and data to Berry and Ski they are the ones utilizing these tools!! Use them well
jmho

Analytics is a tool.

However, it used in every part of football operations.

Training and injuries, the draft, contracts, free agency, position rankings, game plans, down and distance calls, player evaluations, etc.

If they can find useful data in any aspect of the organization it will be looked at.

MLB is driven by analytics.

Football is getting there.

Analytics has been around since there were assistant coaches in the bleachers writing down what the next week’s opponents did. Why people are shitting the bed over analytics baffles me.

To be fair it’s literally one person.

True. Let me restate, why ANYONE is shitting the bed about analytics baffles me.

This thread is just plain silly.

Analytics tells you that a 6 foot 180 lb person should not be a defensive tackle.

It is a tool that is only as good as the interpretation behind it.

It helps determine the desirable characteristics for players that are similarly rated.

You don’t put a “road grader” in a zone scheme OL….

[/thread]

Hamfist...you are correct about assistant coaches and sometimes graduates and ex-players sitting in the bleachers of future opponents taking notes about the type offensive plays a future opponent runs or the type defensive formations a future opponent is running... and for my years playing in HS and college football, I was a beneficiary of such scouting reports that helped to prepare me for my next game. That was a very good use of analytics.

Those sitting in the stands accumulating the information for our team had "YEARS OF EXPERIENCE" playing the game in HS and College football as well some who had additional years scouting for our coaching staff.

Concerning those accumulating analytical information for the Browns, is there anyone who can tell us how much "football experience" that any of them have had in the game of football ?

For example...one of the new hires made by Depo is a fella named Rishav Dutta...what is his background and/or his experience level playing the game of American football, at any level ?

As I said earlier, those who accumulated football information for me and my teammates years ago had no less than 3-4 yrs experience playing the game of football...how much experience in the game of football do the analytics professionals hired by Depo have playing the game?

You need to give it up. Those folks sitting in the stands were working as scouts, not analysts. If I would need a research analyst, I'd hire a computer major from Carnegie Mellon like Dutta before I'd hire a football player.

jfan..you didn't answer the question...one of the new analytics hires made by Depo is Rishav Dutta and what is his background as it relates to football and the Browns?

Oh, the irony.

And coincidentally, the ad banner at the top of this thread (at least for me) is promoting the 2022 Business Analytics Conference in Houston this April.

#2022Analytics

See you there, mac!

He'll be the one shouting at everyone at the entrance with a barely intelligible sign protesting analytics.

If only you knew a person with this kind of power.

Where's the entertainment value in that?

I'll answer this question IF you can correctly answer for me PRECISELY what his job responsibilities are and how they mesh with the skill set he possesses.

You continually asks baited questions yet refuse to answer any legitimate questions asked of you. You've been doing that since you've been on these forums. If you answer the questions from Purp, cfrs, Peen and myself, I'll answer yours. As of now, your questions don't warrant the effort to make the keystrokes for a reply.

While I get where you are coming from, just because you played the game does not make one more knowledgeable. There are many coaches who have never played the game, and some that may have played in their youth, but not at a collegiate or professional level. Studying the game, by watching film, following stats, and engaging with coaches and players can give you a large amount of knowledge of the game. Also, these analyst's who become involved with pro sports, must have some deep interest in the game and how it works to even consider taking these positions. Many average everyday fans gather a lot of knowledge of how to play the game, and what it takes to build a team. Heck some fans, even on this board, have had better mock drafts than the professionals who are doing it. Stats are data. Scouting reports are data. Combine reports are data. Even game film can be considered data. These things have always been analyzed by someone, albeit, in different ways. Using computer programs and algorithms, is just a more modern way of doing what has been done for years, but probably in a more efficient and deeper manner.

I don't for one second think Depo and others in his department tell coaches what to do, or what plays to run. I think it is more that they provide information for the GM and coaches to use. If a coach tends to lean completely on their data, that is on him, and the results he gets are from his choices are on him. Many coaches are Ex players, and they are still clueless at times. The good ones use any info or data they can get to help them decide what is best for the team

https://gocrimson.com/sports/football/roster/paul-depodesta/17602


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-depodesta-he-was-always-a-football-guy/

Is Analytics a crutch for those in charge who don't wish to think. To think of a way to be a better football team that wins more without having to have a super advantage in every resource in order to compete.

[/color]

Originally Posted by THROW LONG

Is Analytics a crutch for those in charge who don't wish to think. To think of a way to be a better football team that wins more without having to have a super advantage in every resource in order to compete.

[color:#FFFFCC]What influence over the Browns football team does the analytics department have under Haslam and Depodesta?

The Browns analytics department answers to NO ONE...they take responsibility FOR NOTHING.

After the successful 2020 season Depodesta added to his department making them #1 in the NFL in terms of numbers. Such an increase in a management should come with expectation...expectations that help the 2020 Browns improve upon their 2020 record...BUT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN..!!

Did the analytics department fail...?

....if the 2021 Browns did not improve upon their record in 2020, it's very difficult for "the analytics group" to claim that they succeeded in whatever their goals were for the 2021 season.

Should the "analytics department" be held responsible for their "failures" in 2021..?

...without knowing what the analytics crew does, it's impossible to assign responsibility for the failures of the 2021 team.

...did the analytics department play a part in game-planning or play selection..?

...did the analytics department play a part in the decision to continue playing an injured QB even though Stefanski had a healthy backup sitting on the bench..?

...did the analytics department play a part on deciding which players played in games, preferring to see players that were drafted by the Depodesta draft team..?

In terms of size (numbers), the Browns now have the largest analytics staff of any NFL franchise under the leadership of Depodesta, and the team regressed in 2021.

How much of the failed performance of the 2021 season should be assigned to the analytics crew..?

YOU TELL ME...

You have several questions to answer before you start asking more.

Yet you keep doing just that.

Why does this post do nothing more than hurt my eyeballs?

Are you Lesko?

Sometimes, if dawgtalkers would have to add one simple phrase,

" I said into a mirror."

to the end of all of the posts that got made, then this place might make a lot more sense.

25% of the time, it would fit perfectly, like a puzzle piece, like it was made for it.

------------------

Analyze that the Browns,,,,, ,,,,,,,, have been trying to figure out this Ole passing game thing, Since OTTO GRAHAM was the quarterback, and haven't won 2 post season games in the same year, in over 6 decades.

The eyeballs are the last part of the brain to go.

jc...

I've been reading some really good posts here in Pure Football from some of our fellow DTers who are attempting to point out some of main reasons that the team failed to reach their goals in 2021.

I'm not going to try to recreate those threads here in this discussion concerning the use of analytics..but did realize something that I feel the Browns
are missing if they hope to succeed in the future...

...IT'S LEADERSHIP..!

IMO, the Browns are lacking that one focal point that can be identified as THE LEADER OF THE BROWNS. It's easy to "say" so and so is the leader...but, who within the franchise shows enough leadership to be identified as the franchise leader?

Great way to get a positive return from the analytics department.

I can't imagine how much it must tear you up inside to see our analytics nerds be in demand for top NFL jobs.

TWO 3rd round picks??
Woah, I gotta love that!

Right? A far-cry from the lame "Rooney Rule", an actual reward for employing p.o.c.... not just interviewing them.

A rare win-win from the NFL.

oobs...Just a guess, but right off the top of your head, can you tell me what Mr Kwesi Adofo-Mensah job was or what his major accomplishment was while in Cleveland since March 2020?

The fact that the Browns look like they might pick up a couple of 3rd round draft picks if the deal goes through...I'm all for that...addition through subtraction..

Snippets from an article in The Athletic on Kwesi Adofo-Mensah...

During a trip to the scouting combine, Adofo-Mensah rode an elevator with Berry, and the two had a 15-minute conversation, which led to an ongoing relationship. When Berry was named general manager of the Browns in 2020, he hired Adofo-Mensah as his vice president of football operations.

While Adofo-Mensah’s time in the league up to that point had mostly been in analytics, Adofo-Mensah transitioned into more of a traditional front-office job in Cleveland, working on contract negotiations and day-to-day roster construction.

The move gives the Vikings a fresh, young voice at the top of the organization who is analytically inclined, but also someone who gained the respect of football lifers and is willing to lean on the scouting department.

He's (was) Ops VP. IIRC, that puts him as a decision-maker of day-to-day stuff (roster).

I also know he got hired away by another team to be their GM. Not sure what you're getting at, so I'll guess and then skip to the end. What is it that you know (or more accurately, think you know) about him and our FO that other NFL teams do not?

I was just reading an article about 3 worst mistakes the Browns made in 2021 linkand I must say, I nailed 2 out of the 3.

#1 Was playing Mayfield nearly all year...

......THAT WAS DUMB and only got DUMBER once Mayfield injured his left shoulder a second time in the Cards game. Why did the Browns spend $18 mill. to bring Keenum to Cleveland if they had no intention of playing him when the offense needed him? Just who was responsible for making that stupid decisiion?

Surely Stefanski has to take some responsibility..our ace 'analytical' GM Andrew Berry likely had some say..and let us not forget the input from the head of the analytics department..hard to believe Depo wouldn't be involved.

...and don't start with the crap..MAYFIELD WANTED TO PLAY. Most players are going to say they want to play and that they are just fine, ready to play, even though they are injured. That is when someone shows leadership and shuts the injured player down, protecting that player from his own ego and the possibility of further injury.

I will come right out and say it...THE DECISION TO KEEP PLAYING MAYFIELD COST THE TEAM A SHOT AT THE PLAYOFFS AND A POSSIBLE SUPER BOWL.


#2 Not shipping Odell Beckham out as soon as the Browns became aware he wanted traded.

The Browns already knew that Oddie could a disruptive force if he doesn't get his way. Oddie let the Browns management know he wanted out before he had even completed the rehabbed on his knee injury. Obviously the Browns decided to risk the fact that Beckham could be a disruptive force in the locker room and Berry and the Boys decided to risk the disruption not understanding the cancer that can and did result, thanks to the Browns management and their naive attitude toward the entive OBJ situation.



I'll stop here for now...time to eat.

So, you've analyzed this?

I don't think ANALYTICS had any bearing in playing Baker, nor "not trading" OBJ.

If it did, you're getting toward the outer extremes of the definition.

Believing Baker would give you a better chance to win was not charted or graphed. The trade value of an injured OBJ was no where near the upside of keeping him. I don't think anybody could have predicted the cartoon-level exit strategy... certainly not a slide rule.

I think the two can be chalked up to "false hopes", and at the end of the season, 31 of 32 teams can certainly make their list of them.

I read the article in the link mac provided that was written by a Browns fan.

The author's third biggest gripe was the Browns punting in the Raiders game to give them the ball back. He then goes on to write...

After quickly moving the ball downfield, Daniel Carlson nailed a 48-yard field goal as time expired.

It’s a sequence that Kevin Stefanski should justifiably be ripped for.

Stefanski did not even coach in this game, he was out with Covid and Preifer was the acting HC. What a dummy.

fate...I'm not one who puts a lot of stock in charts and graphs to making some common sense judgments dealing with some football matters...such as playing an injured QB when you have a healthy QB sitting on the bench...or dealing with a malcontent veteran WR who has a history of making sure his problems affect everyone in the locker room.

Some of those who deal with analytical charts and graphs to help them define problem areas seem to lack the basic common sense to understand football matters described here.

The two issues I mention could have been handled much better than they were by "those in charge"...and those in charge seem to rely heavily on analytics, charts and graphs to help them make common sense football decisions...jmho

Fate nailed it with his first sentence of the post you responded to... the issues you are railing against were non Analytics related. Baker playing hurt isn't an analytics issue. Trading OBJ wasn't an analytics issue. You might want to try and make it an analytics issue because of the axe you are trying to grind ... but that don't make it so.

But that's like saying Baker sucks because he spends too much time making commercials. You're saying they're too wrapped up in analytics to make common sense decisions when one has nothing to do with the other.

Mama Says Depodesta is the Devil

Our coach makes the decisions on who plays and who doesn't.

I just wanna say that in 4 pages of this nonsense, you've been able to clearly and succinctly explain what we're all trying to say, in a tenth of the time, while giving many a chuckle.

I tip my hat.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...leveland-browns-andrew-berry/9236148002/

In his introductory press conference with the Minnesota Vikings Thursday, Kwesi Adofo-Mensah had a message for Northeast Ohio fans as he praised his mentor, Browns General Manager Andrew Berry.

“Cleveland, you have a rock star in that seat. Please appreciate him,” Adofo-Mensah said.

So you finally found something another fan wrote and are trying to say that makes your point?

Those who believe the comment above..might have their heads so far in the sand, they may never see daylight again.

There is hope though..ostriches don't survive long in the Berea environment...time to face reality when it comes to understanding how many fingers were involved in running "all aspects" of the Browns.

Do you seriously think Depodesta decides who plays on Sunday?

We already know the answer to this, don't we?

Analyze that:> I was just thinking again, how insulted I am, as a Browns fan, that the team I love and support,
COULDN'T Keep OBJ on the !! TEAM! Until the season ended, no matter if he wanted to or not!
You put him on the Bench! and you don't cut him until the season ends. You have some integrity as an organization.

But NO! YOU SLAP YOUR FANS IN THE FACE, you put him in ANOTHER UNIFORM, THIS SAME YEAR!!!!!!!
Is there never an end to the idiocy.

Those who don't believe Peens post need to start all of their posts with "Once upon a time" I mean if your going to post Fairy Tales you might as well do it right

What I've had enough of is this thread, and your baseless accusations and refusal to address any of the evidenced-based arguments against your bologna.

[quote=mgh888]https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...leveland-browns-andrew-berry/9236148002/

In his introductory press conference with the Minnesota Vikings Thursday, Kwesi Adofo-Mensah had a message for Northeast Ohio fans as he praised his mentor, Browns General Manager Andrew Berry.

“Cleveland, you have a rock star in that seat. Please appreciate him,” Adofo-Mensah said.[/quot

Imagine that..under Berry's mentoring for 1 yr and 8 months and working 1 draft with Berry and Mensah is ready to take over as Vikings GM. I wish him well except when playing the Browns.

(note)..I do wonder if there could be additional considerations concerning future dealings between the Browns and Vikings. Having good trading partners is certainly a plus.

Do you seriously think Depodesta decides who plays on Sunday?

Don't believe I said that..that Depo decides who plays on Sunday.


Andrew Berry made it clear with his comment below, what the priorities are when it comes to how the Browns operate under Haslam, Depo and our GM....

... "Since taking over Cleveland’s General Manager job back in 2020, Andrew Berry has made a point to heavily emphasize analytics in all aspects of his football team. From coaching tactics, to player scouting, to sport science techniques, analytics are playing a huge role in multiple facets of the Browns’ organization."

You most certainly said it wasn't Stefanski who decided which players played and which ones didn't. Once again with nothing to back it up.

Let me add this...Many on this board and across the internet have commented how Stefanski's play calling did not look like it did in Stefanski's first season. Don't take my word..just read.

link

Grading Kevin Stefanski’s 2021 Season

By Pat Opperman January 16, 2022 @opperman_pat

(Photo by Jason Miller/Getty Images)

Did you ever find yourself dreading the comments and inevitable judgments sure to follow an abject failure?

Kevin Stefanski of the Cleveland Browns should feel that way about now, maybe even for the past month or so.

Someone with a history of failure might fear getting fired or having to repeat a school grade.

LATEST VIDEOS (click link to see video link)

.........................................................
(Tweet from 92.3 The Fan)
#Browns HC Kevin Stefanski: "Our record is 8-9. You own it. You wear it. It's, ultimately, short of your goals. Moving forward, finding ways to improve and learning from some of those lessons..."
3:33 PM · Jan 10, 2022
........................................................


Fortunately for Stefanski, he has enough prior success to expect some grace from the powers that be.

But that doesn’t change the fact he did not meet expectations, thanks to some really questionable decisions.

And that is what the 2021 season comes down to for the Ivy League head coach and his assistants.

There is plenty of blame to share among his minions, but here is how we’re grading Kevin Stefanski’s 2021 season.


Preseason Preparation – C 

This is the most difficult grade to assign, since we weren’t privy to much in the preseason.

But we did see Stefanski rest almost all of his starters for almost the entire slate of games.

This brought the Browns into the season opener with a full roster of uninjured starters.

...................................................
92.3 The Fan
HC Kevin Stefanski on @CLETalkingHeads: “Respectfully, I’ll never ever blame injuries for how we perform. I think we have good depth. That’s just the nature of the NFL and that’s what by it’s so important to have your depth ready to go.”
10:50 AM · Jan 13, 2022
..................................................


But while the offense did well out of the gate for three quarters, the defense obviously needed time to gel.

Multiple additions to the mix might have warranted more game experience before the Kansas City affair.

Joe Woods noted his younger players were not exposed to the entire package before September.

But the team looked okay overall, and given the limits of the Covid era, we’ll say Stefanski had the team prepared.



Game Planning- C-minus


Short of a future telltale novel, we might never know if Baker Mayfield ran the offense as Stefanski expected.

For those who don’t know, each play call has at least 2 options for the quarterback to choose or change to.

More than once this season, Stefanski was caught directing sideways glances at Baker Mayfield.


And cameras caught the coach asking his quarterback, “What the h— are you doing?” during one game.

But since he did nothing to address any playcalling issues, we have to put the game plans on the head coach.

To say they were vanilla is an insult to vanilla unless you acknowledge some swirls and nuts.

Stefanski never seemed to properly adjust to his injured passer, missing linemen, or substandard receiving corps.



In-Game Playcalling: F


It might surprise fans to learn the Browns ran about the same number of run plays as they did in 2020.

If it seemed like the Browns ran far less often, it’s probably because they did not run when we most expected.

Deception is nice, but Stefanski wasn’t deceptive as much as he was illogical.



Roberto Shenanigans
@Rob_Shenanigans
On the very first drive of the game, D'Ernest Johnson ran the ball 4 times for 58 yards (14.5 YPA). The #Browns ran the ball just 3 more times in the entire rest of the 1st half.

It's time to have an uncomfortable conversation about Kevin Stefanski's play-calling.
2:37 PM · Nov 14, 2021

t’s one thing to line up like you are going to run just to sneak a tight end or wideout behind the defense.

But it raises justifiable questions to go empty backfield in running situations, removing any question of his intent.

Stefanski made some ill-reasoned adjustments to defensive schemes and went too conservative with a lead all year.

As an example, 5 linemen and 3 tight ends should handle an 8 man front as effectively as a 4-wide, empty backfield.



Off Field/Locker Room: D-minus


This is largely a judgment call since we were not in the locker room for the most part.

And we understand Stefanski tried to deal with Covid by separating the offense and defense indoors.

But the result was multiple players talking about the diminished “team” feeling and bond throughout the year.



Tom Withers
@twithersAP
During radio interview with @CLETalkingHeads, #Browns coach Kevin Stefanski reiterates he and Baker Mayfield were well together, respect each other.
10:47 AM · Jan 13, 2022


After the Odell Beckham fiasco, Myles Garrett said the defense didn’t know what was happening until it was over.

And Baker Mayfield kept telling people important decisions were his to make, or after he spoke with Emily and his agent.

Through it all, Stefanski remained even-keeled, even as he contradicted players’ takes on some issues.

But even-keeled only works if you’re above the water, and Stefanski needed to rise up and assert his authority.



Overall Grade: D


Eight wins is far short of the Cleveland Browns’ goal and expectations for the 2021 season.

But it is a far cry from the hopelessness and mockery of seasons past.

Injuries, Covid, player disruptions, and a difficult schedule presented serious challenges to the second-year head coach.


Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Greg Newsome II on how to bounce back next season:

"Forget about the season that we had but also remember it. Got to remember what it felt like to not make the playoffs. Remember what it felt like to go 8-9 after coming from a season where they won a playoff game."
1:46 PM · Jan 10, 2022


But he is a smart guy and he will undoubtedly look at it all and seek answers he can not find by himself.

Cleveland lost 6 games by less than one score, and that can be considered a positive factor.

Teams that lose a bunch of close games one season tend to over-correct in the following one.

And we trust Stefanski, Berry, and the players will be motivated by this year’s disappointment beyond 2022.

So you mean to tell me that when your QB has a torn labrum it causes his play calling to change and be limited? I had no idea. And your're using a fan who retired from his job who now writes about the browns as your proof? Sounds convincing to me.

And an Oline with injuries throughout that went from best to mediocre (in a run-based offense). My favorite, though.....

"Off Field/Locker Room: D-minus


This is largely a judgment call since we were not in the locker room for the most part."


I'll paraphrase. 'We have nothing to back up this hot take... we're just arbitrarily assigning a low grade because reasons'.

I always want to read subjective grades based on nothing written by Pat Opperman.

And let's not ignore the authoritative takes by a one, Roberto Shenanigans!

Browns Nation - A community blog by and for disgruntled anti-analytics fans.

This thread hasn’t died a horrible death yet? Wow.

You practically did. With your constant referencing of Depo and your response to Peen, those are pretty easy dots to connect. Your unconvincing explanation says nothing about gameday roster decisions.

If Depodesta thinks games are not won on field goals early in the game, seriously?
If Depodesta is going to say that on C.Browns.Daily. If he doesn't want to score field goals in the early parts of a game,
then He has to be replaced!
Because points matter.

WOW...the playoffs could not have worked out worse for the Cleveland Browns..Bengals win then Beckham runs his mouth talking bad about the Cleveland Browns and after playing a good game yesterday for the Rams JR takes another jab at Cleveland... the headline this morning reads...

...Odell Beckham Jr.: Everything about this place is right


I expect JR to continue his anti Cleveland campaign, directly and indirectly.

If everything is right about LA, should the Browns be concerned about what might be wrong in Cleveland? I do believe the Browns franchise needs to ask themselves about the criticism with some honest self examination.

Everything is right about LA, until it's not. If there has been anything consistent about his time in the NFL, it's that he'll get frustrated over something and the situation will blow up and become untenable.

After two seasons with Berry and Stefanski my opinion is they do look in the mirror.

They are objective about the organization from top to bottom.

In reference to Odell you have to consider the source. His history is easy to research.

The Bengals congratulations. They went from four wins to going to the Super Bowl. It shows what can be done if you make good decisions, play hard, and believe you can win.

Honestly, I am not down on the Browns. Looking back over this season their ending record is understandable. Disappointing no doubt.

Can they learn from 2021 sure they can. And, I believe they will.

In the end Browns fans must either trust in Berry and Stefanski or not. Because the future is in their hands.

Not if you listen to this board and OBJ's comments. According to the evidence he hasn't been happy to be here from the very beginning. That flies in the face of "he'll get frustrated over something".

He got frustrated over being traded here (?). He was in NYC getting passes from Eli and wasn't happy.

Whoever decided who plays on Sundays, didn't have the machismo to bench an injured Baker and keep it in place for the duration.
^
Now is that comment, mostly true, somewhat true, somewhat false, or completely false?

The Giants went 3-12 in 2017. They went 5-11 in 2018.

OBJ was traded to the Browns in the spring of 2019.

Eli was benched after 4 starts in 2019 by Daniel Jones. It seems as though the Giants weren't very happy with Eli at that point either.

Analytics had nothing to do with the myriad of injuries we suffered this season. Everyone went down at some point. This is the same team and staff that not only got us to the playoffs the year before but actually won a playoff game and gave the Chiefs a good game the next week. This can happen sometimes. What you don't want to do is freak out and start firing everyone again. This time NEXT year we will know a lot more about where we stand. At QB as well as organizationally.

So, who decided to play an injured Baker Mayfield while a healthy backup, Case Keenum sat on the bench?

The article below touches on that question/subject. Some who believe all decisions concerning the players need to read the partial story below. If folks want to read the entire article, click the link below.




What about Kevin Stefanski’s offense? Would a receiver want to come to the Browns? Hey, Terry!
Updated: Jan. 31, 2022, 10:13 a.m. | Published: Jan. 30, 2022, 5:56 a.m.

Hey, Terry: Who is really responsible for Baker Mayfield playing while injured? Was it ultimately Baker’s call or did Coach Stefanski make the final decision? I want to know who to be angry at. – Dean Major.

Hey, Dean: Let’s start with the medical aspect. The Browns’ medical people and Baker’s medical people had a voice in his being “cleared to play.” Baker wanted to play, but so what? Just because a player wants to play doesn’t mean the coach has to play him.

I say that as someone who sat on benches for two sports at Benedictine and then a year at Hiram College for baseball. I always “wanted to play.” I was seldom granted that request. The guys playing ahead of me were better.

For reasons I fail to understand, the Browns brass failed to see that on some Sundays, a healthy Case Keenum was a wiser option. That decision rests with the coaching staff and the front office. They fell into the trap of “our starting QB is our starter as long as he can play.”

My counter is this: He’s your starter as long as he can play like a viable starter, which Baker didn’t in his final six games.

...............................................

Hey, Terry: I recall that when Mayfield was selected as the first pick, a significant part of that was due to Jimmy Haslam being enamored with him. Any inkling where he stands with the owner this season? – Tom Jump.

Dear Tom: You have Baker mixed up with Johnny Manziel, who was a favorite of Haslam. I wrote a long chapter about that 2014 draft in my book, Browns Blues. Former GM John Dorsey was enamored with Mayfield. He even scouted Mayfield in person after being fired by Kansas City and hired by the Browns as GM in 2017. Analytics sites such as Profootballfocus also gave Baker their highest QB grade in the 2018 draft.


link

The drama with OBJ in NY lasted longer than those 2 years.

oobs...you totally miss the point and subject of this article as it applies to the subject of this thread...ANALYTICS and just how far the Browns management is involved in the decision making process of the Browns.

Many want to pretend that Stefanski is the sole authority when it comes to player personnel...reading this article would seem to indicate that the front office IS INVOLVED in personnel decisions, such as playing an injured Mayfield...just say'n.

Would you care to show just how long it lasted? And I'm not talking about "drama". I'm talking about your assertion. That he didn't want to play with Eli. Because I sure don't recall it being longer than that. Like many QB's do when they age, their skills sometimes drop right off the cliff. That's what happened to Eli. You brought up the fact he didn't like playing with Eli and I showed you why. If this desire to leave the Giants went back several years because he didn't want to play with Eli, I would sure like to see the evidence of it. And not "rumors". We all know if OBJ was unhappy he would be telling people.

Maybe you should write Haslam and tell him Terry Pluto should be the Browns HC. How much time do you spend searching for articles with which to attack the coaching staff and FO?

That is probably one of the few verifiable statements you've made in this thread.

I am talking about 'drama' as, in this thread, that is what the original topic was about (OBJ is now happy in LA, I said he'll only be happy until he's not).

I didn't dig, but OBJ first called out his teammates (that I could find) after his 'rumble in the Carolina jungle' vs Norman.

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/201...es-didnt-have-my-back-carolina-panthers/

IIRC, that was before he even got his big contract extension. The kicking net incident happened around then as well (same season). I think that was 2016 (I'm going off memory here, so don't skewer me on dates). The kicking net incident happened because he had his man beat and Eli either missed him or didn't look his direction.

TLDR: drama follows this guy because guy is a drama queen.

I don't see being upset about a play here and there as not wanting to play with Eli. Thus he signed a long term contract with the Giants after the incident. I think the biggest indicator was him signing that contract to stay with the Giants. If he wanted to leave, he would have left then. People see some of these things differently. Let's take HC's for example. If they throw a fit about every mistake a player makes and every close call on the field by the officials, people often say they're competitive and have a fire in their belly. That wearing their emotions on their sleeve is a positive. When OBJ does it, for those who don't like him, they claim he's a drama queen.

Let me give you another example. We saw a poster just the other day on this very board show a video clip where OBJ said he wanted to score a TD. Another players said he just wanted to win. Now this was supposed to show OBJ being some kind of selfish player. I don't know about you but I certainly hope that every player that touches the football, every time they touch the football, wants to score a TD. As I understand it scoring points is the goal and you can't win without scoring touchdowns.

Pit...how bout this..

...the article I referenced for my post was really old...but you have no freaking idea because your #1 reason for posting is.. you just want to troll.

Updated: Jan. 31, 2022, 10:13 a.m. | Published: Jan. 30, 2022, 5:56 a.m.

link

I don't know how anyone can take you seriously concerning the subject matter of this thread.

I think your problem is that nobody takes your posts seriously in this thread. If you weren't aware of that obviously you haven't been reading the responses. You're welcome.

Ok enough is enough. Just admit you have no, zero,clue about what goes on with the Browns or any NFL team. You make crap up on a daily basis and try to convince others your fantasy's are real. I can only pray that most folks around here realize just how personal your posts are, and that they are directed at your own fantasy's instead of reality.
You really need to look in the mirror and take a hard look at why you post fantasy instead of facts.

GN...nearly everything I post comes with a link to backup my point of view.

I do admit to having opinions that are based on "football" and my own personal experiences playing the game in HS and College.

This claim about making things up is pure bullcrap from you and a few others.

Paul DePodesta confident Browns can regain, maintain top-10 status in all 3 phases

DePodesta believes the Browns aren’t far from being a team capable of making a deep playoff run in 2022

Feb 01, 2022 at 04:42 PM
Anthony Poisal
Staff Writer

Browns Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta believes the Browns aren't far from returning to a playoff-caliber level.

The expectation for 2021, of course, was to be at that level and go even farther into the playoffs than 2020, when the Browns snapped an 18-year playoff drought and advanced to the AFC Divisional Round for the first time since 1994. The Browns thought they were well-equipped for another playoff run but instead went 8-9 in 2021, leaving several questions about what Cleveland needs to prioritize this offseason to get back to the playoffs next season.

DePodesta, now in his sixth season with the Browns, will be exploring solutions alongside Executive Vice President and GM Andrew Berry and coach Kevin Stefanski in the coming months. The Browns have several areas of the roster to address, but DePodesta believes the Browns just need a few quality moves to be back on track.

"There are definitely some clear things we need to correct, and we feel like we can (do that) going into next year," DePodesta said Friday in an interview on Cleveland Browns Daily. "Ideally, we want to be a top-10 unit on both sides of the ball, special teams included, and we think that's within our grasp. We're just frustrated that we have to wait eight months before we get to play again and, hopefully, prove it."

The Browns were a top-10 team in only one of those areas in 2021: defense. Cleveland finished fifth in the league by allowing only 311.5 total yards per game and finished fifth in pass defense and 12th in run defense. The group gradually improved as the season progressed and was exceptionally good in the last seven games when it never allowed more than 30 points.

With many of the top playmakers — Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Greg Newsome II, John Johnson III, among others — set to return, DePodesta said the Browns feel they're in a position to repeat that success next season.

"I think we're in better shape than we were a year ago or even a year before that in terms of all the returning guys in key spots," DePodesta said. "All of those guys coming back puts us in a good spot."


Would have been more interesting if Depo had been before sports journalists who could ask their questions. I don't believe Depo is comfortable in that kind of interview with a question and answer period. Like I said, the analytics boys answer to no one and are free do what ever they want.

LMAO you post this then in your very next post you post this made up crap.

So you played the same amount of football as Paul DePodesta?

DePodesta met with the media to discuss his role and analytics after Stefanski was hired. It's not scary, I promise!

DePo: People have a warped view of what analytics is

This is a fluff article.... and THAT'S your take? This is why the premise of this thread is a joke.

If true with the Hue Jackson/Haslam TANKING situation blowing up to the max and now the number one story on the net and in the media this morning...there will be questions, I do wonder about who else besides Haslam is going to named by Hue Jackson.

Near the bottom of the story below, Jackson names some of the names from our analytics department. I posted that paragraph here...

Diemert then followed up with a series of tweets stating that Jackson has records to back up his claims, and that several team leaders (including Jackson) were a part of a bonus structure to “tank,” including former general manager Sashi Brown, chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta and current general manager Andrew Berry. Diemert added that the NFL and commissioner Roger Goodell knew about it and “covered it up,” which is likely a reference to evidence provided during Jackson’s failed grievance against the Browns.



Sources: Hue Jackson may join Brian Flores lawsuit, claims to have proof that Browns incentivized tanking

Yahoo Sports
CHARLES ROBINSON
February 2, 2022, 3:09 PM

The wide-ranging class-action lawsuit brought against the NFL and a handful of teams by former Miami Dolphins coach Brian Flores may be about to add another plaintiff.

Two sources close to former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson said Wednesday that Jackson has made arrangements to speak with Flores’ attorneys about the suit as early as Wednesday. The sources also said Jackson has expressed a willingness to provide testimony and materials to Flores' lawsuit, alleging that Browns owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized “tanking” for better draft position through the use of a bonus structure during the 2016 and 2017 seasons, when Cleveland went 1-31.

Some of the materials in Jackson’s possession stem from a confidential fraud grievance he brought against the Browns following his in-season firing in 2018. That grievance was handled by an arbitrator under the terms of the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement. That arbitrator ultimately ruled against Jackson, although the judgment was not considered a definitive determination of fact.

“The recent comments by Hue Jackson and his representatives relating to his tenure as our head coach are completely fabricated,” a Browns spokesperson said. “Any accusation that any member of our organization was incentivized to deliberately lose games is categorically false.”

Jackson declined to comment Wednesday. On Tuesday, the NFL released a statement refuting the claims in Flores’ lawsuit and said the litigation was “without merit.”


Sources: Hue Jackson may join Brian Flores lawsuit, claims to have proof that Browns incentivized tanking
Yahoo Sports
CHARLES ROBINSON
February 2, 2022, 3:09 PM

The wide-ranging class-action lawsuit brought against the NFL and a handful of teams by former Miami Dolphins coach Brian Flores may be about to add another plaintiff.

Two sources close to former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson said Wednesday that Jackson has made arrangements to speak with Flores’ attorneys about the suit as early as Wednesday. The sources also said Jackson has expressed a willingness to provide testimony and materials to Flores' lawsuit, alleging that Browns owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized “tanking” for better draft position through the use of a bonus structure during the 2016 and 2017 seasons, when Cleveland went 1-31.

Some of the materials in Jackson’s possession stem from a confidential fraud grievance he brought against the Browns following his in-season firing in 2018. That grievance was handled by an arbitrator under the terms of the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement. That arbitrator ultimately ruled against Jackson, although the judgment was not considered a definitive determination of fact.

“The recent comments by Hue Jackson and his representatives relating to his tenure as our head coach are completely fabricated,” a Browns spokesperson said. “Any accusation that any member of our organization was incentivized to deliberately lose games is categorically false.”

Jackson declined to comment Wednesday. On Tuesday, the NFL released a statement refuting the claims in Flores’ lawsuit and said the litigation was “without merit.”


(...Sources tell Yahoo Sports that former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has expressed a willingness to provide both testimony and materials to Brian Flores' class action lawsuit, alleging that Browns owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized
Sources tell Yahoo Sports that former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has expressed a willingness to provide both testimony and materials to Brian Flores' class action lawsuit, alleging that Browns owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized "tanking" for draft position during two seasons over which the team went 1-31. (Photo by: 2017 Nick Cammett/Diamond Images/Getty Images)
More...)


Since the filing of Flores’ lawsuit, Jackson and the head of his charitable foundation, Kimberly Diemert, have posted tweets suggesting Jackson’s intent to engage with the Flores litigation. Jackson, who is now the head football coach at Grambling State University, suggested that he encountered some of the same things Flores alleged in his lawsuit against the Miami Dolphins, New York Giants, Denver Broncos and the overarching NFL corporation.

Jackson told ESPN on Wednesday via text message, "it's time to take a stand. What I want is what Brian [Flores] wants which is for this BS to change for black coaches. I lived this same crap."

Prior to this suit, Jackson spoke critically about Black head coaches having their success undermined by team owners that allegedly set a double standard for minority coaches when it comes to the building and success of franchises — as well as the “second chance” opportunities granted to white head coaches versus minorities. Jackson also repeatedly has made claims that during his time in Cleveland, Haslam blindsided him with the size of the rebuild that was going to be undertaken, as well as some of the methods that would be employed during the rebuild.

On Tuesday, he added a wrinkle to those claims, suggesting that Haslam tied finances to what Diemert said was tanking. Responding to a tweet that said “Haslam wasn’t offering 100k per loss,” Jackson said “Trust me it was a good number!”

Diemert then followed up with a series of tweets stating that Jackson has records to back up his claims, and that several team leaders (including Jackson) were a part of a bonus structure to “tank,” including former general manager Sashi Brown, chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta and current general manager Andrew Berry. Diemert added that the NFL and commissioner Roger Goodell knew about it and “covered it up,” which is likely a reference to evidence provided during Jackson’s failed grievance against the Browns.

Attorneys for Flores said Wednesday that other coaches have not become a part of the class-action lawsuit brought against teams and the league, but that it is expected more will join the litigation.

Hue gave an interview on SportsCenter and basically undermined himself. He is, as always, an idiot seeking attention.

j/c
I have not seen the interview. From summaries which I have seen it *seems* to sort of follow this rationale

1. Hue was hired and they had a 4 year plan.
2. Years 1 and 2 the team would get young, acquire draft capital.
3. Year 3 they would be competitive.
4. Year 3 they were not competitive under Hue - they were 2-5-1. He was fired and then the Browns went on to win 5 of the remaining games with a make shift coaching staff.

Seems that Hue want's to call having a plan to get young and acquire draft picks - 'Tanking' and being paid to tank. Seems like when year 3 rolled around and the team was supposed to start being good - they were still inept under Hue and as soon as Hue was gone they got immediately much better. Sounds like Hue is full of poop.

Yep.

Hue came across as a complete moron on Sports Center. Implied on Twitter he was literally paid to tank intentionally, had the receipts and then goes on TV and basically says he was part of rebuilding plan that lost a lot of games and they knew they would as part of the process. Grambling State probably wants to rid themselves of Hue after that crash and burn.

Hue should apologize to Flores for making a mockery of the situation.

The only relevance this has to the thread topic is that some 2 bit attorney did his analytics and smelled 30% of a class action suit.....then gave 'ol Huey a call (and probably called every ex minority coach he could get the number of).

Nobody had to pay Hue to be a loser.

Today, suddenly the Texans claim that Flores was one of their finalists ... now that's ironic.

Also today, suddenly Hue's memory seems to be a little fuzzy...how long does it take to transfer money?

I heard one guy talking on the radio or on TV, it would be best for the NFL to make this 'go away' as quick as possible. Could be that the NFL owners might be doing their best to make this go away, asap...leading to Hue's Fuzzy memory and Flores sudden potential job offers.

just sayn.

x2

What did Dak's attorney say? I'll only believe something if it comes from him.

This is fun...if you can't refute the information posted, simply post an emoji...

TWO CAN PLAY THAT GAME

Hey, at least you're acknowledging questions asked of you vs just ignoring and continuing to fabricate talking points.

How many girlfriends did DePo steal from you? Just tell us so we can skip to the end of all this.

OOB...how bout you post a link for all the posts you make so we know your not lying or simply posting made up crap...?

CAN YOU DO THAT?

I've mostly been poking fun at you. The source is me. I don't need a link for that.

Thats what I thought..you have no sources to back up anything you post and the 'stuff' you post is based on 'nothing'...

Go back and look. When I've made actual claims, I've provided links. When I'm making fun of you creating something out of nothing (like just about everyone else in this thread), I don't need to post a link because it's coming from me.

When a comment is too stupid to actually deserve a response, emojis make for a great reply.

Mac, your thoughts on Baltimore Ravens hiring Sashi Browns.

You do know Baltimore is heavy into analytics?

LOL....that has to bother a few around here. Heck, one even had some sort of sig about Sashi not even being in football anymore....LOL

This will be fun to watch the spin on this one.

"I didn't say he will never work in the NFL again. They certainly won't have him making the draft picks..."

To be fair, Hue did have another NFL job first....

bugs..actually I'm hopeful that he can do for the Ravens what he did here in Cleveland, produce a 1-31 record.

I haven't read a lot of the posts in this thread, but I have seen a lot of references to analytics on plenty of others.

There are some posters who seem to believe when the Browns draft a good player or make a good play call during a game it is based on old-fashion football knowledge, but when the team has a questionable draft pick or bad play call it is because they are beholden to analytics.

Especially, it seems, every time a fourth down is attempted, analytics gets blamed.

This is aging well.

Not every 4th down, mostly 4th downs where the team was in short or usually made field goals' range. And where else but analytics would one start the blame.

I would be more likely to blame analytics if you went for it from outside field goal range.

JC...

In an attempt get this thread back on subject, have you had enough of ANALYTICS yet...?

There is no graph or chart that can measure EMOTION.

Those who WORSHIP analytics would like to ignore this fact and pretend it doesn't matter...but those of us who have played sports know that "emotion" did play a part in how we performed in a game, a season or in our career...analytics can't measure emotion and they don't even try...the ANALYTICS GEEKS would rather pretend that EMOTION has no part in athletics and never has...

...those ANALYTICS GEEKS who would rather pretend that EMOTION plays no part in sports...AND THEY WOULD BE 100% WRONG!

Good thing everyone in our front office played college football.

It would be great if "everyone" that works in the Browns front office did have some experience playing the game of "American Football".

Like Berry and Depoesta?

Do you even realize how much of what just rattled around in your head is completely made-up while also being totally not relevant?
I don't think you do. I think you think that you're actually making a point, but you are not.

You obviously have some REALLY STRANGE IDEAS as to what your favorite buzzword mean.

Can we stop feeding this troll thread and let it die of starvation?

eh, it's going to be weeks before we have any real news to talk about...

IIRC, Mangini built a team around what you're saying here... and it was kind of a disaster. I'd say that team overachieved only because people didn't expect them to win anything with how old and lacking in talent those teams were.

No doubt some of you would rather "NOT" DISCUSS the impact that "EMOTION" plays on the game of football and performance...the performance of an individual or the performance of a team.

Analytics can't measure emotion and how it impacts performance...but they can't deny that EMOTION does impact performance...they just don't know how to measure 'how much'..?

The question some of you should try to answer is just how much does EMOTION impact the performance of an individual or the performance of a team?

If Analytics had a way to measure EMOTIONS, they would have already done so.

Lest we forget football guy, Tyler Hamblin!

If..."analytics"...has a difficult time measuring the impact "emotions" has on perfomance..the performance of an individual player or the performance of a team...how much can "anyone" depend on the results that are based on "today's analytics"..?

Come on mac, 5 pages and I don't think a single person supports your point of view. Do you fancy yourself a "lone rebel" speaking out against the masses or something.....and that 20 years down the road the rest of us Dawg Talkers are going to tell our kids, "we should have listened to mac!"?

Players play with emotion all the way through high school. All the way through college. Stop pretending you're the only one who played football here. When you break players down and use analytics in the NFL, you are doing so with players who have been playing with emotion for years and the data in front of you is the results of those players playing with emotion. What you're saying makes no sense.

I'll respond to your absurdity.
If you're relying on emotion as your secret weapon to carry you to victory, you've already lost long before you even set foot in the arena. You are making a LOSER's BET. GUARANTEED.
Being in CONTROL, despite your emotions, wins FAR, FAR more than being emotional ever can or will.

And no, "analytics" cannot quantify that stuff, nor do they even attempt to. This sort of thing is why we have a scouting department, but you're unable to realize that they all work TOGETHER to give the decision makers the most complete set of information to work from. Scouts "measure" the players' heart, give-a-damn, "emotion", and dedication to football the same way they have for decades... with their eyes and ears. They are PART OF THE INFORMATION GATHERING. SCOUTS. SCOUTING. FOOTBALL GUYS.
They. Are. Information.
Information is Data.
Using Data is Analytics.


So, for those who want us to drop "analytics", Why do you want us to get rid of our Scouting Department??
What is it you hate about football guys??

I don't know how right I am, or care how wrong, but I believe, it was analytics, ... phew, dumb analytics that
in the Raiders game, (and when Mac is saying emotion, it relates to "momentum" and momentum has/needs to be factored into "in game" decisions.
That with momentum on the Browns side, late in the Raiders game 2021.
After Greedy Williams got an interception and the Browns had a 1 point lead and could have won with just a 1st down, that on 4th and 1,
the Browns, probably took some mathematical equation in the decision to punt,
instead of just taking a chance and go out and win the freaking game!

And the fact they had a whole 2 minute warning time out to think about it and make the right decision, but still chose to punt, is even more disturbing.

( analytics analyze this for me. If Babe Ruth didn't get a home run for 3 weeks, he's eager and focused to get one! his chances to get a home run have gone up!
If Babe Ruth just got a grand slam last at bat, then Babe Ruth could have taken his foot off the gas just a bit and was more OK with just fowling out or something.
You can see it in soccer or hockey if a team is ahead by 2 goals, vs. another situation maybe where a team is down by 1 and the time is running out.

Now, knowing that that is a thing. And Knowing Greedy Williams had just gotten you an interception in the previous possession against the Raiders. How Dumb was it to punt that ball!
Do you think you are going to get 2 straight turnovers on 2 straight drives? Is that what they were banking on in one of the top 2 most devastating losses, (Chargers) that led to the Browns missing the playoffs, and ended it, ended it before the Steelers MNF kickoff even.

To stay off track, but still be relevant to one of the posts..

I really dislike when people bring up that they played the sport as if that validates their point.

A certain previous poster (which we all know who) used to remind us all the time that he played running back in division 2. Meanwhile, it was like 40 freaking years ago.

1st off Mac, nobody on this board worships analytics.
2nd Why do you insist of calling some people in the front office Geeks when you mean that as a insult?
3rd Just who are these folks your calling Geeks, and making up more crap about how they feel about emotion? Have you ever talked with them.... My money is on the answer NO, but you keep on making up stories in your own mind, but like I suggested before just start them out with Once Upon a Time.

now, that would be a fun mod to the board.....



Or, maybe combine it with a random number generator to randomly select between "Once Upon a Time..", "Word is...", etc...

Geeks?
I read that as Greeks.Had me completely baffled.Depodesta,sounds more Italian but could be Greek.Berry no way.Kokinis sounds Greek but I don't think he's here anymore.
Geeks makes more sense although I don't believe Mac is using it as a compliment.

Once upon a time. (b4 analytics), if the Browns had a 4th and goal inside the opponents 10 yard line, especially early in the game, they would end up with 3 or 7 points.
Far too often since analytics, that becomes 0 points.

There is no "before analytics".

There was a before it was advertised and lauded -(I guess is the word). (parroted, highlighted, droned into us.)

maybe we can sing about Sweet Emotions! You talk about things and nobody cares.

That deserves more than just a "like".

Kevin Stefanski needs to learn from Brandon Staley about relying too much on analytics

link

leveland Browns HC Kevin Stefanski has to learn from Brandon Staley’s failure.

You have to hope that Cleveland Browns’ head coach Kevin Stefanski was paying attention on Sunday when the Chargers lost to the Raiders. Chargers head coach rightfully so got flack for his gameplan, as he relied heavily on analytics to decide what to do. It killed the team’s chances to win. Especially when you think it makes sense to go for it on fourth and short when you’re inside your own 20-yard line.

Sure, the Raiders settled for a field goal but when you lose in overtime to a field goal, that’s pretty damning of a situation to put your team in. This is the problem with analytics. It encourages coaches to ignore common sense and rely on statistics.

Here’s the truth about statistics; they mean nothing to the individual. Relying on them, and defaulting to them has plagued too many coaches and cost too many men games. Stefanski is no different at the moment. There’s been a few games where he passed on easy points to go for it on fourth-down or try for two when it’s not needed, and it bit them in the butt.

Kevin Stefanski has to be traditional in his planning for the Cleveland Browns
The Cleveland Browns need Stefanski to not be so cute with his play-calling in 2022. The decision to do so in 2021 cost the Browns a lot. There were a few games where doing the normal, expected, common thing would’ve or could’ve worked. Stefanski got too cute too often. Whether it was passing 30+ times against the Packers when they couldn’t stop the run, or deciding to go for it on fourth down in the red zone when a field goal is all you need.

Stefanski had a habit of making boneheaded moves that were steeped in “analytics”. Hopefully for Stefanski, and the Browns’ sakes, he stops doing that in 2022 and relies on conventional football wisdom, because that’s proven to win Super Bowls.

This article was written by a Chad Porto, who's listed as a "co expert" on the Factory of Sadness website. He's written other masterpieces such as "A Kyler Murray trade to the CLE is unlikely" (Pasted exactly as written). He also writes articles about playing Fortnite.

jfan...so you are admitting that you "COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT" of the article...!

That's not an article. It's somebody's blabbering from a website called the factory of sadness. It's no different than your posts here on Dawgtalkers. In other words, he's no more qualified to post about analytics than you are.

Brilliant.
Visionary.
.

Answer my question mac.... why do you hate the football people and want to get rid of them?

Nah mac. He's just tiptoeing around telling you that it's stupid.

Emotion means about as much to data analysis as level of spiciness in the burrito the player ate before the game.

Data analysis is the problem the topic addresses in the first place. Had enough data analysis yet.
Analyzing data, when you should be---- taking what is in front of you, pouncing on it, and dominating it.

Should Kevin Stefanski Be On The Hot Seat In 2022?

Originally posted on Browns Nation | By Wendi Oliveros | Last updated 1/20/22
link


It is the offseason for the Cleveland Browns.

That is the time to evaluate and reevaluate every player and coach to make sure the person is still a good fit for the 2022 Browns.

No one is excluded from the exercise including Coach Kevin Stefanski.

Should Coach Stefanski be on the hot seat going into 2022?

The answer is no, and here is why.

1. Reigning NFL Coach Of The Year

Stefanski is the reigning NFL Coach of the Year.

He won that award after his rookie season.

While Stefanski had adversity in 2020 that he was able to work through while the Browns were winning, this season’s adversity accompanied a losing streak.

A losing streak in his sophomore season does not warrant him to be on the hot seat or on the verge of being fired.

The Browns spent years changing coaches, and that is a painful process that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Stefanski remains a good coach who had some growing pains but deserves time to right the ship.

2. Career Regular Season Record Is 19-14
As mentioned before, Coach Stefanski is finishing only his second season as an NFL coach anywhere.

His prior experience was in various staff positions with the Minnesota Vikings.

In 2020, Stefanski got a new job with a brand new team.

Through two seasons, he has managed to stay above .500 and finish 19-14.

COVID-19, injuries, and other adversity have been in the mix during these two seasons so that is commendable especially with a franchise that once went 1-31 over two seasons.

In his end-of-season press conference, Stefanski talked about debriefing everyone to learn how to get better for next season.

He said:

“Learned a lot. I think that’s what this week is about. Meeting with all the coaches…giving me their two cents on what worked, didn’t work. One of my main reflections, so disappointed you win 8, you lose 9.”

3. Needs More Time To Build The Team

Rarely does a rookie player peak in his first season or even his second.

It takes time to learn the role and to build and grow with it.

The same is true for head coaches and specifically Stefanski.

Though he seems to be an ultra-prepared person, nothing could prepare him for the events of this season.

The injuries and the issues with Odell Beckham Jr.

That is where the learning comes in.

Stefanski spoke of documenting the learnings in an improvement plan.

Every player and coach including himself has an improvement plan to work off of and reflect on during the offseason.


Hayden Grove
@H_Grove
Kevin Stefanski said that the Browns will have an improvement plan for every player and every coach, including himself, to ensure that this disappointing season is a one-time occurrence. #Browns
4:16 PM · Jan 10, 2022

While there is no way that Stefanski should be worrying about his job heading into the 2022 season, he needs to realize the team owner has never shown a high degree of patience...and the media can be 10 times worse if they feel the team is under performing.

...the honeymoon is over !

Analytics glossary: A guide to understanding the changing language of football

Updated: Feb. 16, 2022, 4:55 p.m. | Published: Feb. 16, 2022, 4:00 a.m.
link


By Scott Patsko, cleveland.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio – The language of football is changing. Traditional counting stats like yards and attempts remain an important part of the conversation, but they’re now sharing space with terms like DVOA and EPA and success rate as analytics gain a stronger foothold in football.

There’s a lot that can get lost in translation.

So, to help you better understand how football is being described and analyzed today (and to avoid having readers get lost in our stories that use these terms), we’ve put together an analytics glossary to help explain what these new terms mean and what they tell us.

DVOA

What it means: DVOA stands for Defense-adjusted value over average. It’s a metric created by Football Outsiders that compares success by a team or player on each play to a league average and adjusts for strength of opponent.

What it tells us: DVOA works off the premise that a three-yard gain on third-and-2 is better than a three-yard gain on third-and-5. In other words, it adds context to performance that simple counting stats like total yards gained or yards per play won’t tell you. DVOA is displayed as a percentage, telling us how much above or below the league average a team or player is performing in terms of efficiency. In 2021, the Browns ranked first in rushing offense DVOA, performing 11.4 percent better than the average offense.

EPA

What it means: EPA stands for expected points added. This stat has been around since the 1970s but has become popular in recent years. Expected points tries to define how many points a player or play is worth to a team. Think of EPA as the measurement between what’s supposed to happen on a play and what actually happens.

What it tells us: Every play has expected points, given the down and distance. Expected points added (EPA) measures the change in expected points in each play. The expected points on first-and-goal from the opponent’s 1 would be 6.0 because a touchdown is highly likely. The expected points on first-and-10 from your own 20 is much smaller, about 1.06.

For offense, a positive EPA is better. For defense, a negative EPA is better. EPA numbers are small. The Browns’ league-leading EPA per target on screen passes in 2021 was 0.47.

Explosive plays

What it means: This stat can have a varied definition depending on the source. But the general idea is that an explosive run play is at least 10 yards and an explosive pass play is at least 15 yards.

What it tells us: Some analytics websites such as Sharp Football Stats keep track of explosive plays as a percentage of a team’s total plays, which can help explain how explosive an offense is compared to the rest of the league. Individually, tracking explosive runs by a player such as running back Nick Chubb adds context to his overall rushing yards and yards per attempt.

Pass rush productivity

What it means: PRP stands for pass rush productivity and is a stat created by Pro Football Focus to give context to a pass rusher’s performance. It measures quarterback pressures created per snap by defenders. More weight is given to sacks.

What it tells us: PRP provides a clear understanding of which players are most efficient with their pass rushes. By breaking things down directionally, it can tell us which side of the field a pass rusher finds more success. For example, Myles Garrett’s PRP in 2021 was 9.6, which ranked fifth among edge rushers. Just from the right side of the line, Garrett’s PRP was 9.8, which also ranked fifth.

Pro Football Focus grading

What it means: Pro Football Focus is one of the most popular analytics websites, and its player grades are often cited by the media. PFF grades every player on every play and uses a scale of 0-100, with higher grades indicating better play. PFF has explained its grades this way: 100-90 elite; 89-85 Pro Bowler; 84-70 starter; 69-60 backup; 59-0 replaceable. In other words, it’s similar to how we would match up percentages with traditional letter grades in school.

What it tells us: An NFL player can be on the field for 50 or 60 snaps, only a handful of which we will remember after first viewing. PFF’s grading provides some context to how the player performed overall, and in many areas. For example, a tight end not only runs routes and catches passes, but also run blocks and pass blocks. PFF provides grades on all those areas to provide a view of the player’s overall performance.

Success rate

What it means: This stat is at the core of many other advanced stats like DVOA and EPA. It measures the percentage of plays that were considered successful for the offense. A successful play is one that gains at least 40 percent of the necessary yards on first down, 60 percent on second down and 100 percent on third or fourth down. Some of those percentages can vary based on who is providing them, particularly on first down, but that’s the general idea.


What it tells us: Success rate is another stat that adds context to traditional stats. It can help us understand the consistency of a team or player.

Win rate

What it means: ESPN’s pass block win rate measures how often an offensive lineman holds his block for at least 2.5 seconds. From the defensive side, it measures how often a rusher can beat his block within 2.5 seconds. The 2.5 seconds is important because the average time to throw for NFL quarterbacks is roughly 2.7 seconds.

What it tells us: Win rate creates a baseline for gauging linemen that accounts for how fast or slow a quarterback is at getting rid of the ball. An offensive lineman can struggle to hold a block, but a quarterback’s quick release accounts for it. Similarly, an edge rusher might beat his block quickly, but the ball is already out of the quarterback’s hands. Win rate tells us who is actually doing their job well despite the outcome of the play. Myles Garrett led edge rushers in pass block win rate in 2021, beating his block within 2.5 seconds 28 percent of the time. Joel Bitonio was third among guards in pass block win rate (96 percent).

Yards per route run

What it means: Yards per route run (Y/RR) is receiving yards divided by routes run.

What it tells us: By taking into account the number of pass patterns a player ran, we get a better idea of their efficiency, as well as how much they are used. The Rams’ Cooper Kupp led receivers in this stat in 2021 with a Y/RR of 3.12.

Informative post.

While that is helpful, it is not the end all, be all, when it comes to football. It is just another piece of the puzzle. But you already know that.

Cleveland Browns analytics front office may balk at ultra-expensive QBs

by Elliot Kennel 3 minutes ago
link

Charge up your calculators, Dawg Pound, because the NFL has lost its mind on quarterbacks, and the Cleveland Browns might be one of the few sane players.

The Cleveland Browns may not be players in the Baker Mayfield sweepstakes at today’s prices. It seems as if Covid or some other dread disease may have attacked the brains of NFL general managers because they have gone mad overpaying for quarterbacks.

They are spending their teams into salary cap hell by paying decent quarterbacks like Matty Ryan an astounding $48.9 million dollars in 2022 salary cap charges. Even an indecent quarterback like Deshaun Watson is good for over $40 million. No team is buying wins by investing in these $40 million dollar plus per year contracts.

The MBAs and economists are going to punch in the numbers and find out that if you overpay the quarterback by that much, the salary cap is so screwed up that that team cannot pay for the players it needs to actually win the game where it really counts: in the trenches, especially on defense.

Well, what about Patrick Mahomes? He’s getting paid all that money and the Chiefs are perpetual contenders, right? Wrong. The Chiefs have promised to pay big dollars in the future, but If you look at the actual salary cap dollars to date, Mahomes’ salary-cap charge for 2021 was only $7,433,381.

That’s actually significantly less than Baker Mayfield, who cost the Browns $10.5 million. The Chiefs have promised whopping big dollars starting in 2022, when his cap charge increases to $35,793,381. That’s the thing. The league has gone through a phase when there have been a lot of big numbers thrown around, and 2022 is the year when it is just starting to become real.
To some extent, they can refinance and restructure, but many of these quarterbacks are getting old and they actually can’t defer payment much longer.

The largest quarterback salary-cap charge in 2021 was Russell Wilson of the Seahawks at a cool $32,000,000. His team won 7 games. Russell missed a few starts due to injury, but his personal record was only 6-8.

In fact, let’s look at the top-10 quarterbacks in terms of salary cap charge as well as the percentage of the total cap allowance. Cap allowance was $182.5 million in 2021. Salary numbers are courtesy of overthecap.com and calculated as a percentage of cap allowance by your humble correspondent.

Player (2021) Team Cap Number Pct of Cap Allowance
Russell Wilson Seahawks $32,000,000 17.5%
Kirk Cousins Vikings $31,000,000 17.0%
Aaron Rodgers Packers $27,573,568 15.1%
Matt Ryan Falcons $26,912,500 14.7%
Jimmy Garoppolo 49ers $26,850,000 14.7%
Ben Roethlisberger Steelers $25,910,000 14.2%
Derek Carr Raiders $22,125,000 12.1%
Carson Wentz Colts $21,305,882 11.7%
Matt Stafford Rams $20,000,000 11.0%
Dak Prescott Cowboys $17,200,000 9.4%

2021 Average of TOP 10: $25,087,695 (13.8% of cap allowance)

Wilson’s personal win-loss record was 6-8 this season. The second highest salary cap hit was Kirk Cousins. His team was 8-9 in the weak NFC North. Third highest was Aaron Rodgers of the 13-4 Packers, followed by Matt Ryan of the 7-10 Falcons. Jimmy G of 10-7 San Francisco rounds out the top-5.


We can certainly construct a case that league MVP Rodgers deserved his money, and Matt Stafford, Derek Carr, and probably Jimmy Garoppolo based on his accomplishments, though his front office hates him, as evidenced by the fact that they gave up a king’s ransom to draft his successor.

Dak Prescott’s figure is heavily discounted because it is the first year of his multi-year contract. The rest of them underachieved their contracts, frankly. The best values were Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson (though injured), and certainly, Joe Burrow, who were operating on their rookie contracts and do not appear in the top ten for 2021 or 2022. The 2021 quarterback veteran class as a whole is way overvalued. It also should be mentioned that Tom Brady found a way to defer his salary to such an extent that his cap number is slightly less than Baker Mayfield’s. He too was a huge bargain.

It starts to get really nuts in 2022, as you can see from the top-10 list below. The 2022 Salary Cap is scheduled to increase to $208.2 million, a phenomenal increase. But it’s not just the raw cash. Adjusting for inflation, the quarterbacks are hogging up a much greater share of the percentage of the cap allowance than ever before.

It had been creeping up previously. As a check, ten seasons ago, in 2013, the top ten quarterbacks averaged $15.2 million and 12.4 percent of the team cap allowance. In 2021, that figure had grown to $25 million and 13.8 percent of the cap allowance, as shown in the table above. But the 2022 numbers show the top ten are averaging $38.6 million, which is 18.5 percent of the salary cap allowance. This is an enormous difference, and it is out of whack.

Player (2022) Team Cap Number Pct of Cap Allowance
Matt Ryan Falcons $48,662,500 23.4%
Aaron Rodgers Packers $46,664,156 22.4%
Kirk Cousins Vikings $45,000,000 21.6%
Deshaun Watson Texans $40,400,000 19.4%
Ryan Tannehill Titans $38,600,000 18.5%
Russell Wilson Seahawks $37,000,000 17.8%
Patrick Mahomes Chiefs $35,793,381 17.2%
Dak Prescott Cowboys $34,450,000 16.5%
Jared Goff Lions $31,150,000 15.0%
Carson Wentz Colts $28,294,119 13.6%
2022 Average of TOP 10: $38,601,416 (18.5% of cap allowance)
But let’s just look at the percentage basis for the top player, Matt Ryan. Ryan is currently scheduled to receive 23.4 percent of the 2022 salary cap allowance. The only player we thought was possibly worth his high salary in 2021 was Aaron Rodgers at 15.1 percent of the 2021 Salary Cap Allowance. That is a huge difference.

To be precise, it is (23.4 percent -15.1 percent)/15.1 percent * 100 percent = 55.0 percent. What this means is, correcting for inflation, Matty Ryan is being granted an inflation-adjusted 2022 salary that is 55 percent higher than Aaron Rodgers received in 2021. The raw numbers are even more gross: ($48,662,500 – $27,573,568)/($27,573,568) = 72.8 percent.

How can Matt Ryan be so much more valuable than the league MVP? The answer is that he is not. The Falcons have no guts to say no, and most of the NFL teams are the same way. They will be punished in the won-loss column.

Suddenly, in 2022, eight quarterbacks are now more valuable than league MVP Aaron Rodgers was last season (including Rodgers), on a percentage basis, correcting for cap inflation. So what has happened to make quarterbacks so immensely valuable in one year? The answer is — nothing. NFL general managers have lost their minds.

Remember when your mom used to ask you, “So, would you go jump in the lake just because the next-door neighbor kid is dumb enough to do it?” Well, yes, NFL general managers would go jump in that lake. They’ve been promising huge mega deals ever since the Chiefs promised an insane $450 million dollar deal to Patrick Mahomes, and it has always been promised for later. Well, later is happening in 2022.
For all of the fans — not just fans, but all over the country, this is the time of year when fans fantasize about ditching their team’s quarterback for someone else — who may be salivating over the prospect of adding someone like Kirk Cousins, Matt Ryan, or accused deviant Deshaun Watson to the payroll, be advised that not everyone thinks it is a great plan to spend the team into oblivion for the sake of old men who were once good quarterbacks.

How much do the Cleveland Browns owe Baker Mayfield?
By the way, the Browns are on the hook for $18.85 million to Baker Mayfield, fully guaranteed, and it is not clear that any NFL team would be willing to trade for that. Nor is there a guarantee that Mayfield ever gets out of the shoulder harness. After a year of mangling that torn labrum in NFL combat, how much is there to sew back together? Will it be like it was before?

Do you realize that even in 2022, the combined cap charges for Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald amount to less money than the cap charge for Matty Ryan, Kirk Cousins, Aaron Rodgers, and Deshaun Watson?

Makes sense to me. As more and more QB's enter the league that run at a high rate, the QB position can become a "somewhat" throw away position. Play a guy his rookie contract, sign him back at a lower rate or move on to the next guy.

What kind of hell site did you link to?

I'm waiting for my laptop to self destruct! It's actually a legit site, but if you put in a topic it will find every article from any source...legit or not. Now I know where mac gets his bizarro stories from.

Call me crazy, but I actually like it.

Thanks mac, this thread pays dividends after all!

Cleveland Browns analytics front office may balk at ultra-expensive QBs


https://dawgpounddaily.com/2022/02/22/cleveland-browns-analytics-quarterbacks/

I just want to point out that American Football was born at Yale University and first played amongst all of the Ivy League schools.
An undergrad medical student at Yale, Walter Camp, is the father of football. Football as it exists today would not be as it is without him and the geeks from Yale.
Geeks are the REAL FOOTBALL PEOPLE; all others are pretenders trying to be as good.

Indisputable.

Indisputable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Camp

Walter Camp, 1880 something- to 1925, died in 1925. the Ivy leaguers are the masters of American football, like the Abolitionists, who outlawed alcohol until the repeal of prohibition legalized it again, are the masters of modern day politics. And understand the war on drugs, the cartels, fentenol, and the motivations behind a government giving needles to addicts.

In the same way, that Henry Ford, is the master of the Modern Interstate highway system, and the Real understander of cloverleafs, diamond lanes, and gas taxes and electric vehicles. (who understands Real football),
In the same way that the German 1940s dictater, (because of speaking in front of groups of 200,000+ crowds, can be considered the Real communicators and the only ones who could understand something like twitter, or satellite television broadcasts.

In that same way, yes it is indisputable that someone who invented the Line of Scrimmage, may have been an ivy leaguer, they may have invented all the rules of football, and that may not be indisputable
But!
the bottom line is,
The Football programs of the ivy league schools, may have been tops in the nation at some point in American History, in the 1950s but not more recently than that.
Today the football progams of the ivy league schools have been bottoms in the nation for the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, and before and are today, So Much So, That!
The best football players, coaches, and innovaters alive today,
and their parents generation, never even considered the Ivy Leaguers, or the Ivy League as any place to expand on the greatness of American football.
any more than the greatest of lawyers, and greatest of polliticians would enroll in ... (some fly by night university.)

The Ivy league, has been the pathway of Senators, and Presidents, but it's not the pathway of football
anymore than Hawaii is the pathway of Ice hockey players
or Upper Michigan is the pathway for Surfers for that matter.

Walter Camp...did he subscribe to the use of Moneyball Analytics?

Walter Camp was an exceptional athlete who applied the use of 'common sense' to suggest rules changes in an effort to improve the many sports he participated in, including American Football.

Also, Walter Camp sought out the opinions of many of the most notable football coaches of his time...John H. Outland, Eddie Cochems, Amos Alonzo Stagg, Pop Warner and Knute Rockne...in an effort to arrive at a consensus to establish rule changes for the betterment of the game.

You do realize that Moneyball was just a movie, right?

So, he was analyzing? Is that what you're saying?

Seems he may be over-analyzing the analysis. I think the micro-analytical angle is the right approach here.

Dude, did your cat really die? I'm sorry to hear that. A gotta admit though, seeing that as your sig stopped me dead in my tracks.

I wouldn't joke about my cat. He was awesome!!!! Maybe sometime I'll start a thread about him.....

J/C

I am not sure where to post this piece. It is an interesting read. I'm posting the first few paragraphs, but I think the article (long) is an interesting read.


Position Focus: First off, lets make sure we are clear that an analytics-heavy front office will focus all of their efforts in producing in the pass game (especially explosive passing game) and stopping the opponent’s passing game/QB. If you ever hear someone link the Browns, or any front office that leans heavily on data, to a “run stuffing” whatever, then just ignore said analyst. It is fairly certain that the Browns will only focus on these positions high in the draft (top 2 rounds)- QB, LT/RT, pass rusher, good coverage DB. JOK last year was a very unique case as a hybrid LB/S type of player who was a tremendous athlete that excelled in coverage at ND. I think that type of hybrid uber athletic player who can cover is now clearly in the mix as opposed to your prototypical middle LB who stops the run. DT is typically not considered a highly coveted position early in a draft by the Browns but if they did ever go that route it would certainly only be one that is a dominant pass rusher and not a run stuffer. There is a reason why data heavy franchises like the Browns are so focused on the passing game. Here are the explosive pass play ranks of Superbowl teams since 2016: 2nd, 5th, 4th, 5th, 1st, 9th, 2nd, 20th, 1st, 6th.

Key Metrics:

Age- We have long known that other sports like Baseball and Basketball favor younger prospects than older ones. The NFL has really trended that way as well and the data has shown that younger players (under 22) have outperformed the older draft picks high in drafts. From 2000-2017, 26% of first round players drafted at age 21 or younger (excluded QBs), have made at least one all pro team with a weighted career approximate value ( Approximate Value: Methodology | Sports-Reference.com) per player of 0.42. This compares to only 18% of players drafted at age 22 or older making an all pro team and a wAPV of 0.40. It’s not a gigantic difference but enough to trend toward younger players in round 1. Andrew Berry has only been in charge of two drafts but in those drafts, he has made four top two round selections (Jedrick Wills, Grant Delpit, Greg Newsome and JOK). All four of those players were 21 years of age at the time of when they were selected. Maybe it is just coincidence that they were all under 22 at the time of the draft but it probably is not if you understand the data trends. Is it to say that the Browns absolutely will never draft a player who is over 21 if they fit a need and check every other box? Maybe not but for purposes of trying to predict who this front office will likely continue to target, I think they will almost always skew younger. It should be noted that the one exception may be at QB where data does tend to lean toward more starts being valuable to a good NFL career. We have seen just as many older QB prospects perform well than younger ones. And this is not to say that the Browns will have a hard and fast rule of cutting off players right at 22 years old, that would be absurd. I do believe, however, that once the prospect is around the age of 22, there is a sliding risk/upside scale and the bar must be higher for the slightly older prospect. Meaning, a player at 22.2 years old must be substantially better prospect than a similar player at 21.2. Also, it will matter what class that older prospect is in. A 22.1 year old Junior (Like Treylon Burks for ex) gets more leeway than a 4th year Senior at the same age.

Workout Metrics- The Browns really tend to also target very good/elite athletes in rounds 1 and 2. They love elite athleticism matched with on field production. They will not take a great athlete who tested well but was a big underachiver in college. high in the draft. On the otherhand, it would be a complete shock if they drafted a player with excellent on field production but posted poor athletic testing. Every round 1 and 2 selection under Berry has produced a Relative Athletic Score (RAS) of at least 8.4. RAS was developed by Kent Lee Platte and aggregates all combine/pro day measurables into a single number on a 10-point scale. Because Delpit was injured leading up to the 2020 draft and last year many players didn’t participate in full workouts due to the pandemic, there is a lot of incomplete data to produce SPARQ scores (Speed, Power, Agility, Reaction and Quickness. Nike created SPARQ to athletically measure high school athletes and was initially adopted in the NFL by the Seattle Seahawks). However, rest assured each of Berry’s selections produced enough athletic testing data to likely post high scores. Every Sashi Brown/Depodesta selection in rounds 1 and 2 produced a SPARQ score of at least the 82nd percentile or better. Even Larry Ogunjobi was 4th among DT in SPARQ at the combine in his season. Not to complete dive deep into the minutia but the Browns, among every NFL team, leans on specific workout metrics within different position groups. It’s not easy to pinpoint the exact measureables they look for within these position groups but should be noted, for example, that every Sashi/Berry edge rusher drafted (Garrett, Nassib, Ogbah) posted excellent 10 yard splits (1.62 or better). Even the Browns FA signing of Takk Mckinley (1.60) last year was a little more proof that a good 10 yard burst is something they covet with Edge rushers. It is important to note that teams are starting to more and more utilize GPS tracking data which is not available to the public. This data was used to help draft Richard Lecounte last season and is most likely used more when there is incomplete speed information or if there is a strong disconnect between game/tape speed and 40 times.

Power 5 School- Between Sashi and Berry, every single one of the nine drafted players in the top two rounds have come from a Power 5 school. Considering a large percentage of all top two round selections in any draft will always come from a Power 5 school, this may likely just be a product of the pool of players typically selected. But it is something that should be noted.

PFF Data- This is not to say that the Browns use PFF’s draft board to drive selections because that would be absurd. But, they clearly either use data to produce similar results or the Browns entrust the graders at PFF enough to supplement their internal scouts. In either case, history says that the Browns draft board aligns nicely with PFFs big board. In fact, the Browns four selections in the top two rounds under Berry have all ranked in PFFs top 21 in both seasons. And that doesn’t even consider the fact that they drafted some players on the PFF board, who were ranked higher than consensus, later in drafts when they selected Jordan Elliot and Harrison Bryant. When projecting who the Browns may be looking to draft high this season, it would be a mistake to ignore PFFs big board and I would be stunned if they completely overdrafted a player that PFF had ranked much lower than draft slot.

QBASE- I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that if the Browns do decide to draft a QB this season, make sure you pay attention to what the Quarterback-Adjusted-Stats-and-Experience (QBASE) projection system spits out. The inventor of this projection system is Andrew Healey, who came from footballoutsiders and is now in the Browns organization as VP of Strategy and Research. It should be noted that QBASE gave Baker Mayfield the 4th highest grade in the database’s history and of course the Browns drafted Mayfield #1. For what it’s worth, the QBASE projection gave FA Marcus Mariota the 7th highest grade in database history.


BROWNS DRAFT SEASON

PFF grades mean a lot according analytics.

Drake London is ranked as the top receiver 10th overall.

Karlaftis is ranked 9th overall.

Age is also a analytic grade and both these guys are 20 which is a good factor.

If we could somehow get both these guys in the first round. It would be considered a big win.

Karlaftis maybe there near pick 27 or so.

If we get London at 13 I am happy.

IMO London is one of the best players in this draft. This guy dominated. He was unstoppable at USC. If he would have played 12 games. His numbers would have been nuts.

I really like the way our draft is layed out. We will be able to get great value at positions of need.

Bugs...thanks for the info..an interesting read trying to explain how the Browns judge talent via "their numbers system"...

...aka ClevAnalytics .

I'm not overly impressed by the Browns ability to judge player talent via their ClevAnalytics numbers system as Depodesta is beginning his 7th season heading the analytics department. Just when should Browns fans expect positive results and who is going to judge the performance of the analytics staff?

What does a passing grade for the Browns analytics department look like?

Today's reality when it comes to measuring the performance of the Browns analytics department can be reduced to keeping Jimmy Haslam happy. But, what makes Jimmy happy might not be what makes most Browns fans happy...

IMO, there isn't anything special in what analytics provides in terms that actually matter to me...WINS !

...Playoff wins !

...Super Bowl wins !!

Yes, when having a healthy QB in Stefanski's first season as HC we went 11-5. Oh the humanity!

Please I hope no one turns this into a draft topic. There is a whole forum on the draft, this thread is about objections to analytics.

Case Keenum was healthy all year in 2021-2022. :sticking out a tongue emoji :

Analytics is not there for you. It is there for the team to help them make the most informed decisions possible. Period. It isn't weighted more than other factors and it isn't used in a vacuum.

mac, I don't think you can use the analytics from the article toward wins and losses.

You would use those numbers on draft success. Looking at the drafts since DePodesta started, you can see the success rate improved.

Without a quantitative number, it is hard to be objective. With subjective analysis, it is hard judging whether you are simply lucky, overall talent was better, or your drafting skills are great.

Things that analytics has caused
covid
Russia to invade Ukraine
global warming
destruction of the ozone layer
School shootings
Rapes
Murder
Death of Jimmy Hoffa

And inflation.

If the Browns consider a player from a group, and that group is much smaller based on 6 months, or 1 year of calendar age,

then the Browns, would be neglecting a sizeable group of potential talent, in their talent search.

JMHO, the Browns Front Office and Depo got their grade. There are only 32 teams, one just dipped into our organization and gave him a GM job. I'd call that high praise AND I don't think they care what you think. Go Browns!!!

888 ... First, you are not suggesting that the Browns Analytics Department is "so good", that they are above reproach or above judgement based on their RESULTS..?

I will say it again, IMO, there is NOTHING SPECIAL about the Browns analytics department when it comes to judging the football talent available in the draft. Depodesta and his baseball/moneyball reputation impressed Haslam so much that nothing else matters to Jimmy. Depodesta could feed Haslam a bunch of BS and Haslam wouldn't know if he was getting good advice OR NOT.

Like most of your posts in this thread, this is just something you made up.

It's like coming in to read a painful comedy sketch, over and over...

The Vikings think our analytics department is so good they hired someone working under our top brass to be their new GM. And we're supposed to trust your opinion more? Ridiculous.

Macs' opinion has nothing to do with it. It is about observing the very real player set that the front office, (the analytics guys), choose to stock the team with.

Oh really.... why dont you give us a list of the players Depo or anybody else in the analystic department drafted?

I hope the Refs lock this thread before you stroke out bro. smfh.

Something I never said. Something I never insinuated or hinted at.

Soooo, what I'm reading is that you're admitting that you did say that??

prp...here is the deal..what major addition to the Browns roster can we credit to the analytics department?


Looking at the information that the Browns analytics provides based on their own GUARDRAILS ... link


... along with their charts, graphs and the information that the Browns analytics department uses to "judge and identify" as the best possible draft picks that the Browns could make in an upcoming draft (or any of the past drafts).

Identify those draft picks, where the information provided by the Browns analytics department, gave the Browns 'draft team' an advantage over the rest of the NFL that resulted in the Browns drafting a prospect who the rest of the NFL overlooked.

Nobody has that information, and unlike you we don't just make things up out of thin air.

Do that Purp...Identify those players...well, except for everybody we have drafted or brought in over the last few years....IDENTIFY THEM!! LOL

I bet you shout at the wind and shake your fist at the sky when it rains too.

The same guy that hailed the return of spring because geese came to his pond whines about using analytics in sports.

So far none of you have come close to answering the SIMPLE QUESTION THAT I asked in the quote above...

...all of you, peen, oobs, 888 OR anyone who wants claim what great benefit the Browns analytics department provided to help the team select better talent than the rest of the 31 NFL teams.

ALL OF YOU ARE WELCOME TO CRITICIZE ME for having a different opinion...but at least show me the evidence that backs up the claim that the Browns analytics department provides draft information that "proves" that the Browns analytics department provides information that gives the Browns an advantage over the other 31 NFL franchises.

Why is it that I ask questions that NONE OF YOU WANT TO ANSWER?

Mac, I'm sorry bro, but I have no idea how you would expect someone to answer that "simple question".

How would we "prove" that analytics have given us an advantage over the rest of the league by identifying certain draft picks that bear the fruit of those advantages?


I'll stab at one though, and it actually spotlights how narrow-minded your view of analytics is.

NICK CHUBB

Why? Because "analytics" led to the Browns moving the NBA mentality to the NFL, taking on Brock Osweiler's huge contract and getting a free draft pick... to give another team salary cap relief.

Do "free" players that play like Chubb count?

So now you've resorted to an impression of Biden?

Yo Mac. can you produce any reliable info that proves Depo makes any draft picks..... Take your time as I know you can't prove what your mouth has BEEN SAYING.

I'm pretty sure mac is Hue Jackson.

OMG

Memphis wins the thread.

It's about time we got some enjoyment out of this thread.

Here is your answer. We've watched you ask baited question upon baited question for years and years in these forums. We've watched you completely ignore any questions asked of you. It is just disrespectful and deters people from wanting to engage. Don't take that silence as a "gotcha" moment.

Aww. 2 things ( a few things) are very public.
1. The moves the Browns make. 2. That the Browns use analytics.
.
There was a previous time when the Browns started using analytics, and being associated with it, and what the Browns do as far as getting pllayers, coaches etc. who they extend or cut etc. and it is also very public, how the games result. So the results are right in front of everybody, no need to connect the dots, it is all very public.
Thread title? (Yep!)

jc

I have news for all the naysayers, analytics are in Cleveland to STAY. It's nothing more than an applied science being used to make better informed decisions. And if you look at the talent on the team before Depo and after, the change is night and day, and seems to get a little better every year. Why would we suddenly think we should abandon one of the few things that has worked here for the last 20 years?

You need to buy some vowels because your totally clueless bud.

jfan...I realize that some are so in love with analytics that are willing to "OVERLOOK AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR" anything Paul Depodesta does.

All I'm trying to do is give Depo credit for his choices...

...FOR EXAMPLE...did the decision to draft Jed Wills, a RT throughout his college career and then try to convert him into a LT, which is the position the Browns were attempting to fill by drafting Wills at #10 in the 2020 draft...

HOW DID THAT WORK OUT FOR THE BROWNS?

And who made that call? Have any evidence who that was? Depo is not the GM.

And you may wish to wait how the Wills pick pans out before you try and do a victory dance.

Not too bad...?

Jed Wills played pretty well his first year and was injured most of his second. I get you're not an analytics guy, but you don't seem to be a 'football guy' either.

Analytics is just statistics, but you know that.

Explain to me what is wrong with Wills, but please use no statistics, just explain how your gut feels. Describe how well he performs or doesn't, but do not use data. <=-- That's life without analytics.

Life is analytics. When you are born you entered in to a record book and become a statistic. When you die, the same thing.

3.....2.....1......

Depo sits ABOVE GM Andrew Berry and do you have any doubt that Depo's analytics play a roll in the decision making process dealing with draft choices

But, let anyone question the performance of the Browns draft team, Depo, Berry, our coach's input and suddenly you reach for the 'ole excuses'...suddenly no member of the Browns draft team had anything to do with drafting Wills? There were other options available to the Draft Team even though there were Red Flags concerning Wills pass blocking.

No doubt, Wills ankle injury slowed him and the Browns decision makers needed to come up with better option than continuing to play an injured player at LT. The decision makers decided it was best to continue starting an injured Wills. That decision didn't work out good for Wills and it hurt the Browns offense.

No doubt Wills will get as many chances to impress those who spent the #10 pick on him and because he is the draft choice of the Analytics dominated Browns, he will get a fair shake and more.

So, you’re beef is that they started Wills while injured and didn’t just roll on down to Walmart to pick up a starting caliber NFL left tackle?

aNaLyTiCs R dUmB!!!!!

Of course statistics and data "play a roll". But that's nothing close to what you have been claiming. Are you saying we should ignore analytics?

Your obsession of Wills being a bad pick are hysterical. Also can you give me the rate of success in draft picks across the league and how this FO rates among the 32 teams? I didn't think so.

To caveat off of Pit:

If Wills is a bad pick, then why didn't you bring up Newsome from last year? Was Newsome a bad pick too? Was he changed to a different position?

Do you think the coaching staff had any input in moving Wills to LT? Do you think they asked Bill Callahan's opinion on if he could be moved from RT to LT?


*********
One very important question: you despise/hate (whatever word you want to use) analytics. Analytics has proved in the past that you will start another thread to keep this bs flowing. SINCE YOU HATE analytics, does this mean you will NOT START a new thread over this bs?

OR will you start another continuation analytics thread looking past YOUR PERSONAL ETHICS, and show us that you really are a closet analytics fan.


What's your decision: Don't use analytics or closet analytics fan?

Oh, the irony.

pit...glad to see that you agree with me, that the jury is out on Wills. He should be over the ankle injury and hopefully the trainers take the necessary precautions to help protect Wills from future ankle issues. To be honest, it might be better to move Wills back to the position he played in College (RT) to see if it helps his play. Another possibility might be to move Wills to OG and move Bitonio to LT. Bitonio did an acceptable job when the coaches used him at LT.

Another OLman who might be a sleeper this year is Blake Hance...also, Hubbard might figure in as a possible option at OT.

Just how much do the Browns rely on ANALYTICS?

We know they are deeply involved in the Browns draft and there have been stories written that point the Browns analytics playing a part in decisions that relate to the team's gameplanning. Is Stefanski relying too much on Analytics? The article below touches on that subject...


Cleveland Browns HC Kevin Stefanski has to learn from Brandon Staley’s failure.

link

You have to hope that Cleveland Browns’ head coach Kevin Stefanski was paying attention on Sunday when the Chargers lost to the Raiders. Chargers head coach rightfully so got flack for his gameplan, as he relied heavily on analytics to decide what to do. It killed the team’s chances to win. Especially when you think it makes sense to go for it on fourth and short when you’re inside your own 20-yard line.

Sure, the Raiders settled for a field goal but when you lose in overtime to a field goal, that’s pretty damning of a situation to put your team in. This is the problem with analytics. It encourages coaches to ignore common sense and rely on statistics.


Here’s the truth about statistics; they mean nothing to the individual. Relying on them, and defaulting to them has plagued too many coaches and cost too many men games. Stefanski is no different at the moment. There’s been a few games where he passed on easy points to go for it on fourth-down or try for two when it’s not needed, and it bit them in the butt.

Cool story.

Let me know when Stefanski starts going on 4th down from his own 18.

Or five times in a game.

Until then it's like comparing a tricycle to a motorcycle because they both have spokes in their wheels.

Analytics!...

The section in the paper illustrating who played faster and who played slower than their 40 times was interesting.



https://www.sloansportsconference.c...-to-better-evaluate-nfl-players-a-review

What is a "TDA-40 time"?

Totally Dorky Analytics

Tracking-data-adjusted

He'll be playing LT again like he should be mac. The stupidity you have infected Dawgtalkers with by posting this thread should be amputated like an arm infected with gangrene.

He’s going to call Ezekiel Elliott’s lawyer and sue you for slander.

Articles from Chad Porto lmao whats next Chads articles on star trek and fortnight. How long till you bust out some old posts from Coach B?

Gimme a ham sandwich. I'll get some pictures of CoachB and his son

Maybe in your own mind, but not in real life.

Maybe he's standing on his head?

It's not a secret to me that some player's performance on the 'track' is not a true reflection of the individual's ability to perform on the football field...and it doesn't surprise me to see that Jarvis Landry made list of players who play faster than their 40 times indicate they should.

IMO, there is a tendency in football to over-emphasis the individual's 40 time when predicting draft value. Put the 'track stars' in 10 lbs of football equipment then have them run the 40 and it might be a better reflection of an individual's ability on the football field. The ability to run 40yds in a straight line is more about 'style points' than predicting future playing ability.

Every team loses close games.

I don't think anybody disagrees. But with all things being equal, 40 times do provide a basis point to gauge a persons natural speed.

To the thread title, yes, I have had enough of this thread.

Baker had 2 opportunities to win that game against Chad henne, but couldn't.

i dont hold that against baker in his 2nd playoff game ever. but if we're really gonna be nuanced about it, Baker had plenty of chances to take the game over, but didn't.

But all things being equal...

But, when it comes to judging talent..all things are never equal. It comes down to the individual doing the judging and how they use their own methods to arrive at a decision. Heaven help the Browns if those in charge start using the excuse...well this is what the "data" told us !

It was the second to last drive. Baker had been playing pretty good all game. Mahomes goes out and the entire NFL world now believes the Browns are moving onto the AFCCG. Just need to make a few plays. Third and long on the second to last drive, Baker buys time, misses Njoku on a comeback for no apparent reason. Just throws it short. Not necessarily a routine play, but a play really good quarterback should make, especially in a really big moment. Baker got tight when the expectations switched from losing to winning (when Mahomes went out). He's not a gamer.

No other play, to me, summarizes his time as a Brown more than that play.

PAGE 10!