This is unprecedented in our history. I hope they have all their ducks in a row or this will get ugly. I really hope this doesn’t backfire and give Trump more support than he already has.
From what I can gather from CBS News this was about 15 boxes of possibly classified materials he left the office with. I believe I heard something about this before on the news. Trump was disputing something about this. What I want to know is this happened before and how was it handled? I know there were issues with the Clintons when they left office but I don’t know if they were similar. I heard a former Congressman say that this is something that can be handled in the courts. Former presidents keep their security clearances and have SCIFS.
Before this raid, I don't think Trump ever thought he might go down for the 6th. Now I bet he thinks it's possible, maybe even likely. So, I wonder what the over/under is on him running someplace the FBI can't reach him?
I figure he will try to stop it all in a race against time to get reelected. But with that possibility being more than two years away, I'm not sure he will chance it.
That's interesting. I didn't realize former presidents had SCIFs at what I presume would be their residences. Those are not cheap.
Like you, I hope the FBI definitely knew something substantive was there and also found it. Otherwise, this will backfire, like you said. In fairness to Trump, if they don't find anything - and he didn't destroy anything - then it's a bad look for the FBI and DOJ. I just know how bad the snap-back reaction will be in that scenario.
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
You guys are cheering this on and it is actually a complete and utter disgrace to our country.
You have a sitting president of the United States, Joe Biden, through his DOJ and his FBI conducting a raid on the person who is presumed to be his opponent in the next election.
This is preposterous and supposedly done in the name of document preservation, when Hillary Clinton used a off-book server for YEARS to conduct classified state business and at the same time money was being funneled by the millions into the Clinton Foundation with the very people she was doing business with. 😂
And to this day she has never been investigated by ANYONE, not the FBI not the IRS.
One day you will all apologize to your grandkids and great grandchildren for being stupid enough to believe these idiots long enough to run this great country straight into the ground.
You guys should flat out be ashamed of yourselves.
This is being conducted by radical democrats that are scared to death to face trump in 2024 plain and simple. This is a big nothing burger and only done to control the narrative just like every other nothing burger they accused trump of.
They hate Trumps guts not just because he is annoying but much more so because he is an outsider from Washington and does not owe a thousand favors, so they CANT control him like all the RINO republicans from the past and it drives them freaking crazy!
I don’t completely blame you guys, it’s the Democratic politicians but mostly to blame is the main stream media for being completely partisan and nothing but a propaganda tool for the Democratic Party when they are supposed to be bipartisan. I do blame you guys as well though for not trying to dig deeper than what the lying media is telling you.
The guy that keeps posting videos from MSNBC is freaking exhibit A of a low information voter eating up the fake news from the democrat media. 😂😂👎🤦♂️ Shame on you man!
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says “wiped? You mean like with a cloth?” 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You’re a joke man.
.....From what I can gather from CBS News this was about 15 boxes of possibly classified materials he left the office with.....
Correct. It relates to the National Archives and the classified documents.
The main stream media is not missing it at all. They are knowingly leaving that part out because they don’t think the American people are smart enough to know this is all about 2024.
Meanwhile, our speaker of the house "has always felt a connection to China, cause when she was young and at the beach, her parents told her if she dug a deep enough hole, she'd get to China.
Her, Biden, and truthfully, a whole lot more. Ironically Nancy's husband didn't get punished for his accident/injury causing drunk driving incident.
Biden's getting money from Ukraine due to his son.............who still hasn't faced justice...............but, Biden doesn't have a clue about anything anyway........
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"It's a bold move Cotton... let's see if it pays off for him"
Honestly - anybody who has a kneejerk reaction to this is just making **** up until we find out more about why the FBI went in, and what they obtained, and what they are accusing Trump (or his associates who may also work at Mar-a-lago) of doing.
But a few things:
1.) This is fairly unprecedented -- which signals something big. OTOH, the 2016 election probably tilted when the FBI announced that they were re-newing their investigation into Clinton's e-mail servers a week before the election. That wasn't a **raid**, in the same sense -- but the timing was much more politically fraught.
2.) This probably was approved personally by Garland, who has (to date) been very cautious about discussing any investigation into Trump. This is a significant reversal from that.
3.) I'd expect that the FBI knows this will backfire severely if they can't (in the near future) explain to the American people what they were doing --- I expect things to move quickly at this point (at least by FBI investigation standards, which are usually tortuously slow).
4.) It's not 100% clear that this is about Trump personally (though I'd say it's likely), or about January 6. He still has many associates who might be using his offices for government or other matters. We do know that they were looking for materials that had been deemed classified -- though there are many reasons they might want to do that.
Donald Trump took classified documents to Mar-a-Lago, National Archives says
The National Archives claims Donald Trump took items marked as classified national security information to his Florida residence when he left office.
Associated Press and New York Post February 19, 2022 - 2:47PM link
The 15 boxes of White House records that were stored at former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence contained items marked as classified national security information, the National Archives and Records Administration said Friday. The agency said the matter has been referred to the Justice Department.
In a response to a February 9 letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform, the National Archives confirmed reports that Trump took government records with him down to Florida when he left office in January 2021.
House politicians had opened an investigation and the National Archives has reportedly asked the Justice Department to look into the matter. The Justice Department and the FBI have not yet said what, if anything, they’ll do.
The letter from the archivists also stated that certain social media records were not captured and preserved by the Trump administration. It added that the agency learned that White House staff frequently conducted official business using unofficial messaging accounts and personal phones.
Those staff did not copy or forward their official messaging counts, as required by the Presidential Records Act. The letter also goes on to reveal that after Trump left the White House, the National Archives learned that additional paper records that had been torn up by the former president had been transferred to the agency.
“Although White House staff during the Trump Administration recovered and taped together some of the torn-up records, a number of other torn-up records that were transferred had not been reconstructed by the White House,” the letter continued.
Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY), chair of the House Oversight Committee, said in a statement last week announcing the investigation that Trump was required under the law to turn over the documents to the National Archives before leaving office, and that politicians are seeking information about the contents of the boxes recovered from Mar-a-Lago.
In response to her request about the contents of the boxes, the agency cited the records act as holding it back from divulging.
The Washington Post first reported two weeks ago that the archivists asked the Justice Department to investigate the discovery of 15 boxes of White House records recovered from Trump at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Palm Beach, Florida, and that the former president had a habit while in office of tearing up records both “sensitive and mundane.”
Investigators will be looking to see if Trump’s actions, both during his presidency and after, violated the Presidential Records Act, which was enacted in 1978 after former President Richard Nixon wanted to destroy documents related to the Watergate scandal.
The law mandates that presidential records are the property of the US government, rather than belonging to the president himself.
Another statute, with violations punishable by up to three years in prison, makes it a crime to conceal or intentionally destroy government records.
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says "wiped? You mean like with a cloth?" 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You're a joke man.
Didn't take long to see your colors. Look it's another brainwashed Trumpian, everyone. lmao. We've seen dozens like you come and go after doing the whole Felicia 4 Trump bit. Trump is a traitor pal, plain and simple.
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
We will see where all of this goes. IMO it is a political stunt similar to all the Russia collusion that proved to be BS.
My concern is why the raid other than optics? A subpoena would have been the 1st course to take unless there was a feeling the papers would have been destroyed. I seriously doubt that would have happened.
My fear is the FBI is like the KGB and a weapon being used by the DOJ and democrats. My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations. It will go much deeper than that.
I think some of you need to open your eyes and see what is happening I this country.
As far as traitorous party, I thing you need to take a good look at yourself.
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Lots and lots of folks from MAGA land are not sleeping well and seem to be triggered....
All that happened here is that a former president was asked to return documents he wasn't entitled to and he just didn't do that. So, in order to get those documents, the FBI or AG went to a court of law and got the warrant to search Trumps Mar A Lago home.
In order for a Judge to OK this, they had to prove that there is good reason to search for something (i'm sure they defined what they were looking for in great detail)
SO, basically, it's not a big deal. Except if Trump is hiding something. In which case it could get pretty ugly for the Former President.
I guess we'll see in good time.
Whatever, this isn't a Witch Hunt, it's not political.. It's just entities within the Federal Government doing their job... That's it.
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Well, now they will employ more bureaucrats than the Pentagon, State Department, FBI, and Border Patrol combined.
I think the real question is why the sudden rush to DOUBLE the size of the agency?
The agents should have put the orange brat in chains and taken him from his sand castle.
The end is coming. It will be a great day for democracy when those who believe themselves above the Law are brought to justice.
It is important to this country to prove that nobody is above the Law. That the leader of the insurrection to overthrow the government is brought to justice. Elections in the US are valid. It was proven in court.
The hearings as told by appointed republican loyalists told the story. The truth was there to be seen to those willing to open their eyes and ears.
I could be wrong, but hasn’t this been part of a new initiative to recoup taxes that have been slipping through the cracks in order to increase revenue? I guess I struggle to see the problem if we basically hire more law enforcement to enforce tax laws for something that is abused, yet contains a department that has been historically behind in catching the “thieves” so to speak.
I think many think the idea of defunding the police is stupid - myself included. With that in mind, why not also appropriately fund our tax enforcement agency to appropriately enforce the laws?
Fair enough point of view. Although revenue has been increasing every year.
So... what is the impetus for DOUBLING the size of the agency? You've been understaffed at 74,000 employees -- the obvious answer is you need 155,000??
lmfao remember when republican voters tried to trash the movement?
they voted this crap into congress. once again, i have zero reason to take any republican voter at their word. they all over fox news and breitbart too talking about taking down law enforcement communities right now.
ooohhh, NOW yall want accountability in law enforcement? nah, go ahead and keep the FBI funded. ya didn't care then, i dont care now.
That’s a fair question and I don’t know the metrics. I do know it’s been intentionally gutted by those who are self-interested. I’d be interested to see the metrics of increased revenue due to audits and enforcement following the surge, assuming the agency doesn’t get declawed or gutted again.
I wasn't aware it had been "gutted". I looked at numbers (employees) from IRS charts that showed full-time employment had decreased 12.9% over a ten year period (2012-2021). The "IRS Budget & Workforce" report also noted that it had been using more part-time and temporary employees over that time.
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Maybe so. We'll see. I'll take your point as fair.
If those are the rates with 75,000 employees, those will be the rates at 150,000
As far as the tax loopholes; it's unfortunate that it's a different topic, but that's how our government works... Never addressing an entire issue with double talk at all junctures.
Just look at this "Inflation Reduction Act" (lmao at the name)... Hire a bunch more IRS agents to go after "those greedy billionaires"... while changing "carried-interest" rules... allowing private equity and other investors to pay a preferential tax rate on profits?? GTHOH
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
We will see where all of this goes. IMO it is a political stunt similar to all the Russia collusion that proved to be BS.
My concern is why the raid other than optics? A subpoena would have been the 1st course to take unless there was a feeling the papers would have been destroyed. I seriously doubt that would have happened.
My fear is the FBI is like the KGB and a weapon being used by the DOJ and democrats. My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations. It will go much deeper than that.
I think some of you need to open your eyes and see what is happening I this country.
As far as traitorous party, I thing you need to take a good look at yourself.
The FBI Director who was appointed by Trump, and has been a Republican donor for years?
Also, Trump drew on a map to show his hurricane "predictions" were correct, so you don't think he would destroy documents to prevent himself from further trouble? Are you naïve?
Lots and lots of folks from MAGA land are not sleeping well and seem to be triggered....
All that happened here is that a former president was asked to return documents he wasn't entitled to and he just didn't do that. So, in order to get those documents, the FBI or AG went to a court of law and got the warrant to search Trumps Mar A Lago home.
In order for a Judge to OK this, they had to prove that there is good reason to search for something (i'm sure they defined what they were looking for in great detail)
SO, basically, it's not a big deal. Except if Trump is hiding something. In which case it could get pretty ugly for the Former President.
I guess we'll see in good time.
Whatever, this isn't a Witch Hunt, it's not political.. It's just entities within the Federal Government doing their job... That's it.
I don't agree. As I said, a subpoena would be the first step unless there was reason to believe the information requested would be destroyed or moved. I don't believe that happened. They just raided the home. That's BS. This was all for optics. This isn't like a drug raid where drugs would be disposed.
I think the DOJ and White House are the ones not sleeping well.
I think it is fair to ask why not raid on the Clintons home? The even took furniture not to mentions all the info on Hillarys s computer.
Nobody in their right mind can say a investigation in to Hunter isn't warranted. That is what is feared. I believe Joe has his hands all over that
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says “wiped? You mean like with a cloth?” 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You’re a joke man.
This is evidence of what it looks like when America has a complete breakdown in their mental health care system.
And my fear is that a very intelligent person likes you believes something so speculatively fear-based.
It's why I said we will have to wait and see, but come on man, a raid? That isn't the way to go about this. Or, if it is, it better be some bombshell stuff. Not some rinky-dink claim or false BS like Russia that filled our ear for 3 years.
I keep a open mind, but after the false dealings of the last 4 years, I am highly skeptical, and they better come out with some concrete proof or Garland needs to be called on the carpet and sent packing.
And that proof needs to come out soon. Not some drawn out BS play to garner votes.
They have known about these documents and have been in talks with Trump's attorney's since January trying to get these documents with the last known meeting in June. They refused to turn them over. As such they went in and got them.
Him keeping classifieds documents and taking them from the White House is clearly a crime. This is a clear violation of the presidential records act.
There is no way in hell that the DOJ would take such measures without very clear evidence. The risk of doing so would be gar too high. There's no way a judge would grant a warrant of a former president's residence without very clear proof that a warrant indeed should be granted.
Remember when Trump asked Georgia officials to find over 11000 votes? Or when he tried to bribe Ukraine for money that had already been appropriated by congress for Ukraine? Stop pretending it's unlikely that Trump is guilty of what he is being accused of and that it's some political stunt. The head of the FBI is someone Trump appointed. Christopher Wray. Not some left wing Democrat.
Bruh- they steady keep her in their front hip pocket for quick & easy access. Their grandkids will still be incoming her name years after she's a-moulderin' in her grave. They just can't quit her, like some jilted high school crushboi.
And even after Trump appointed his handpicked committee to try and nail her, they couldn't find anything to do it either. Even that doesn't seem to matter to them.
Bruh- they steady keep her in their front hip pocket for quick & easy access. Their grandkids will still be incoming her name years after she's a-moulderin' in her grave. They just can't quit her, like some jilted high school crushboi.
If that is what you think, it is what it is.
I only brought her up as an example of how there seems to be selective enforcement. I didn't even mention how during President Obama's administration they used the IRS as a weapon against Republicans.
I am just tired of the crap no matter where it might stem.
I only brought her up as an example of how there seems to be selective enforcement. I didn't even mention how during President Obama's administration they used the IRS as a weapon against Republicans.
I am just tired of the crap no matter where it might stem.
The FBI obtained access to all of the servers -- they got a judge to sign off on a demand for the contracting company to turn the servers over to them. They re-announced an investigation mere days before the election, which is a significant part of the reason why Clinton lost....
My fear is the FBI is like the KGB and a weapon being used by the DOJ and democrats.
...and Freud said, "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."
Let's adhere to the concept of Occam's Razor, shall we? That concept: if you have two competing ideas to explain the same phenomenon, you should prefer the simpler one.
It doesn't get simpler than this: 1. D00D stole material that belongs to the people of the United States. 2. The Law came to his house and took it back.
Like our pal Diam is fond of saying, "one + one = 2."
I wasn't raided yesterday. You weren't raided yesterday. Reason? We aren't criminals.
See how simple it can be? You're working too hard at this.
p.s. I want you to read the following sentence twice, to allow the crazy to sink in: Classified, sensitive U.S. government documents were being kept in the basement of a Florida golf resort.
If there was ever a POTUS that tried to use the government apparatus as his own play thing to nobble opposition and create dysfunction .... it was Trump. Remaining silent on that and throwing this schtick out when Trump is breaking laws and norms and being held accountable ... beyond believe. Clinton faced unprecedented investigation over her email server - 11 hours in front of a congressional hearing for Benghazi ... most of that WAS political theater. "LOCK HER UP - LOCK HER UP" .... Honestly, it's getting tot he point where it's not worth the typing, it's beyond conditioned and triggered. Certainly both "sides" have some of the same issues - but the deflection and defence for Trump is hard to believe or stomach.
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
And your answer is to commit arson in response? You're a real piece of work. With that line of thought you probably support the January 6th rioters too.
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
And your answer is to commit arson in response? You're a real piece of work. With that line of thought you probably support the January 6th rioters too.
I think his joke was that "Clinton and Obama would spend the night burning classified documents that they had at their houses" and not "we should burn their houses down"
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
And your answer is to commit arson in response? You're a real piece of work. With that line of thought you probably support the January 6th rioters too.
I think his joke was that "Clinton and Obama would spend the night burning classified documents that they had at their houses" and not "we should burn their houses down"
And my fear is that a very intelligent person likes you believes something so speculatively fear-based.
It's why I said we will have to wait and see, but come on man, a raid? That isn't the way to go about this. Or, if it is, it better be some bombshell stuff. Not some rinky-dink claim or false BS like Russia that filled our ear for 3 years.
I keep a open mind, but after the false dealings of the last 4 years, I am highly skeptical, and they better come out with some concrete proof or Garland needs to be called on the carpet and sent packing.
And that proof needs to come out soon. Not some drawn out BS play to garner votes.
You might be right…but you might be wrong, too. We don’t know how much necessity there was behind a raid before we conclude everything or make drastic suppositions.
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
And your answer is to commit arson in response? You're a real piece of work. With that line of thought you probably support the January 6th rioters too.
did you actually read what I wrote?
I said: "Fires were seen blazing from the Biden, Obama, and Clinton residences." ....meaning they were up all night burning docs so they don't get busted too.
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
And your answer is to commit arson in response? You're a real piece of work. With that line of thought you probably support the January 6th rioters too.
I think his joke was that "Clinton and Obama would spend the night burning classified documents that they had at their houses" and not "we should burn their houses down"
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Well, now they will employ more bureaucrats than the Pentagon, State Department, FBI, and Border Patrol combined.
I think the real question is why the sudden rush to DOUBLE the size of the agency?
Because GOPers have been chipping away at the IRS for years, ensuring they are understaffed and focused on wage earners. The uproar is only an uproar because the GOPers' corporate masters dislike this.
Classified documents? Was she still in office at the time? Because that's the issue here. Trump took them home with him AFTER he was no longer president.
Oh stop with the details and specifics. Facts ! Pfffft !
lmfao remember when republican voters tried to trash the movement?
they voted this crap into congress. once again, i have zero reason to take any republican voter at their word. they all over fox news and breitbart too talking about taking down law enforcement communities right now.
ooohhh, NOW yall want accountability in law enforcement? nah, go ahead and keep the FBI funded. ya didn't care then, i dont care now.
I guess GOPers are just like BLM folk after all. Remember how they cried about the calls to "defund the police" when black people were being snuffed for NO REASON? Now they want to defund the FBI for doing their job and going after known bad actors. Trump attempted to overthrow the government, and here they are trying to protect him. The whole damn party is full of traitors.
My fear is the FBI is like the KGB and a weapon being used by the DOJ and democrats.
so, are you suggesting that the Former President is above the law? That we can't go to them to be accountable for their actions?
Does this mean that Republicans are guilty of going after Hillary CLinton in the same fashion....
Difference, Clinton sat and answered Questions for hours.. Trump just stomps his feet and cries like a baby...
If that is what you think I said, then you are a simpleton.
You're either Trump drunk or dealing with some kind of brainwashing crap or whatever else happens to people becoming fascist bro. You calling anyone a simpleton is hilarious. That simpleton didn't fall for a charlatan like you did. Clinton was cleared time and again by GOPers after endless investigations. But Trump gets caught redhanded time and again, and he's persecuted... Step back and look at yourself, that should scare you.
And my fear is that a very intelligent person likes you believes something so speculatively fear-based.
It's why I said we will have to wait and see, but come on man, a raid? That isn't the way to go about this. Or, if it is, it better be some bombshell stuff. Not some rinky-dink claim or false BS like Russia that filled our ear for 3 years.
I keep a open mind, but after the false dealings of the last 4 years, I am highly skeptical, and they better come out with some concrete proof or Garland needs to be called on the carpet and sent packing.
And that proof needs to come out soon. Not some drawn out BS play to garner votes.
The truth IS OUT. WTH? Have you watched ANY of the hearings? Your dude IS A TRAITOR! Trump is a pure trash ass criminal to his core. And he's about to go to jail, finally. Did you think Uncle Sam would let an attempted coup stand until he ran again? You better look up the definition of simpleton.
Fires were seen blazing from the Biden, Obama, and Clinton residences.
Well, that's deplorable.
Not sure why? It's the last few POTUS. I'm sure they all took sensitive info to their homes.
Oh, I know what you think, but did you see any of them try to pull a coup when they had to go? Did any of them try to bring down democracy on the way out? Apples and oranges.
Fires were seen blazing from the Biden, Obama, and Clinton residences.
Well, that's deplorable.
Not sure why? It's the last few POTUS. I'm sure they all took sensitive info to their homes.
Oh, I know what you think, but did you see any of them try to pull a coup when they had to go? Did any of them try to bring down democracy on the way out? Apples and oranges.
1 + 1 does not = 3 and just because one person did something... "worsre" doesn't mean the other isn't guilty too.
we need to hold all government officials more accountable. they are public servants and are not above anyone. (Trump or Biden included)
Yeah a very bad day for the GOP leader his followers, and ketchup. Perhaps he will write a book about his struggles while in jail. You know like Hitler did.
Yeah a very bad day for the GOP leader his followers, and ketchup. Perhaps he will write a book about his struggles while in jail. You know like Hitler did.
It's disgustingly and offensive that people are comparing Trump to Hitler or even referencing Hitler when talking about Trump.
Hitler literally was the reason around 75 million people died and 40 million of them were civilians. Quite frankly, people should be embarrassed they would even attempt to take away from all of the suffering Hitler caused.
Trump may be a lot of things... but they are not the same.
It may have been a reference to trump saying "his generals" should have been like the German generals in WWII.
Of course trump doesn't know history because Hitler's generals plotted to kill him numerous times.
But who cares about details?
All that is on trump's hands is the people who died believing in trump and his lies about covid and how it would just go away when it got warm.
All those that followed his lead about wearing masks and using his voodoo cures for covid. How easy to forget all the covid deaths that could have been prevented from a competent president.
As someone else posted earlier... I hope that the FBI actually has something substantial... this is pretty unprecedented... I hope it's more than just a witch hunt or political stunt... seems like that's some substance there, but haven't read enough to know...
Good morning. I’m here to give you an update on the FBI’s investigation of Secretary Clinton’s use of a personal e-mail system during her time as Secretary of State
From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.
With respect to the thousands of e-mails we found that were not among those produced to State, agencies have concluded that three of those were classified at the time they were sent or received, one at the Secret level and two at the Confidential level. There were no additional Top Secret e-mails found. Finally, none of those we found have since been “up-classified.”
Somehow Clinton is not in jail...
On Nov. 6, 2016: FBI Announces Review Complete, Nothing Criminal Found. Let's not pretend that Trump is going to jail either. Unless all of the politicians are going with him.
Trump Hails Approved Coronavirus Vaccine as ‘Medical Miracle’
U.S. President Donald Trump late Friday hailed what he termed “a medical miracle” – the immediate but extremely limited availability of a coronavirus vaccine less than a year after the first cases of COVID-19 were reported in the United States.
In a video message posted on Twitter, Trump said the first doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved for emergency use will be administered “within 24 hours” and will be “free [of charge] for all Americans.”
The president said the vaccine “will save millions of lives and soon end the pandemic once and for all.” The assertion contradicted health officials who note that it will be months before many Americans can be inoculated and that eradication of COVID-19 is far from assured.
yeah, well, facts don't matter. Just like Biden bragging about having covid yet staying at the whitehouse while trump had to be taken to a hospital. Oh, but wait: No vaccine available at that time.
But that doesn't matter. Bash the F out of trump, over and over and over and over.
That's what most of the posters that post on here in PP do. They aren't intelligent enough to discern jack squat. They just hate trump, and ignore biden. And pelosi. Weird how her husband got off for the drunk driving accident he caused. Weird how she has an affinity for china.
Oh, no one knows about that? Eh, media. If it ain't trump, it doesn't air.
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says "wiped? You mean like with a cloth?" 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You're a joke man.
Didn't take long to see your colors. Look it's another brainwashed Trumpian, everyone. lmao. We've seen dozens like you come and go after doing the whole Felicia 4 Trump bit. Trump is a traitor pal, plain and simple.
I think it’s so funny how you guys think conservatives are the ones manipulated.
How exactly do you guys not see the stronghold democrats have on information?
How do you not see stories like Hunter Biden’s laptop just disappear and get swept under the rug?(not changing subject just giving an example)
Democrats control 99% of the main stream media on your tv.
Google is ran by a bunch of liberal hacks.
Facebook and Twitter, ran by liberal hacks.
Academia, ran by liberal hack professors.
Democrats literally have a monopoly on information available to us and if something gets out that they don’t approve of or don’t want you guys to see, they simply censor it.
Are you guys that manipulated that you don’t see or comprehend this?
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says "wiped? You mean like with a cloth?" 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You're a joke man.
Didn't take long to see your colors. Look it's another brainwashed Trumpian, everyone. lmao. We've seen dozens like you come and go after doing the whole Felicia 4 Trump bit. Trump is a traitor pal, plain and simple.
I think it’s so funny how you guys think conservatives are the ones manipulated.
How exactly do you guys not see the stronghold democrats have on information?
How do you not see stories like Hunter Biden’s laptop just disappear and get swept under the rug?(not changing subject just giving an example)
Democrats control 99% of the main stream media on your tv.
Google is ran by a bunch of liberal hacks.
Facebook and Twitter, ran by liberal hacks.
Academia, ran by liberal hack professors.
Democrats literally have a monopoly on information available to us and if something gets out that they don’t approve of or don’t want you guys to see, they simply censor it.
Are you guys that manipulated that you don’t see or comprehend this?
___________________
It really is time for you to find some other place to try to settle down. We've seen your type here, many times before. They have come in waves. And they have always left in droves.
Here is something you have failed to comprehend: the people who congregate at this web address don't come for the politics. They come for the Browns. We are a community. And we know a Browns fan when we see one. We also can smell an outsider when he infiltrates, from the aroma of freshly-stirred s# that surrounds him.
Take your lame, tired, hackneyed tripe to a website that hasn't already seen a million vacuous trolls like you. Your game is lame. And we're better than you.
And my fear is that a very intelligent person likes you believes something so speculatively fear-based.
It's why I said we will have to wait and see, but come on man, a raid? That isn't the way to go about this. Or, if it is, it better be some bombshell stuff. Not some rinky-dink claim or false BS like Russia that filled our ear for 3 years.
I keep a open mind, but after the false dealings of the last 4 years, I am highly skeptical, and they better come out with some concrete proof or Garland needs to be called on the carpet and sent packing.
And that proof needs to come out soon. Not some drawn out BS play to garner votes.
You might be right…but you might be wrong, too. We don’t know how much necessity there was behind a raid before we conclude everything or make drastic suppositions.
I haven't drawn conclusions. Much can still transpire to formulate that. Supposition? Sure. That is based on things that have happened before. Now it is a day later and I find it strange, given the magnitude of the last 24 hours that the White House is totally tight lipped except to say they knew nothing. I see that as possible before hand but I am sure someone talked to the DOJ, who will have no comment for obvious reasons.
After news broke Monday evening that the FBI had raided Mar-a-Lago, the Florida home of former President Donald Trump, right-wing influencer Steven Crowder delivered an alarming message to his nearly 2 million followers on Twitter: “Sleep well. Tomorrow is war.”
The next day, during his show on YouTube, where he has nearly 6 million subscribers, Crowder called for the “defunding” and “dismantling” of “our intelligence agencies” and the FBI over the raid on Trump’s seaside mansion. He also called for a purge, imploring the GOP to get revenge.
“The next president of the United States needs to prosecute everyone,” he said. “Needs to clean house everywhere.”
“If a Republican gets in, investigate everybody, raid everybody,” he added. “Use all of it. I don’t care if we become Nicaragua at this point.”
Crowder’s inflammatory rhetoric was standard right-wing messaging across America on Tuesday. GOP lawmakers and MAGA influencers clamored to show their fealty to the former president after federal agents searched his home for classified information he may have taken home after leaving the White House, according to a New York Times report.
“Are you ready,” far-right influencer and “Pizzagate” conspiracist Jack Posobiec wrote in a series of hyperventilating tweets to his nearly 2 million followers on Twitter. “The federal security state has declared war on Donald J Trump and his supporters.”
“Lead, follow, or get out of the way,” he wrote. “Leviathan has awoken…Welcome to the end game.”
Jack Posobiec is seen on set of "Candace" on March 15 in Nashville, Tennessee. (Photo: Jason Davis via Getty Images)
Monica Crowley, a former Trump administration official and Fox News personality who now hosts her own radio show, suggested it might be time for people to lay their lives on the line. “This is it,” she tweeted. “This is the hill to die on.”
Others invoked ancient Rome. “The Rubicon has been crossed,” tweeted far-right YouTuber Tim Pool. Conservative radio host Jesse Kelly posted a quote from Roman general Pompey Magnus: “Do not quote laws to men with swords.”
The New York Young Republicans issued a statement calling for the “total disintegration of the FBI” and for mass arrests.
Everyone involved in the “persecution” of Trump should be detained, the group stated, and habeas corpus — a basic right allowing defendants to protest their detention to a judge — should be “suspended in order to secure our Republic from insidious monsters that have wrenched it from the American People’s control.”
And Jon Miller, a former host with the right-wing outlet Blaze TV, was even more blunt.
“Either we destroy our political enemies ruthlessly and mercilessly or they destroy us,” he wrote on Gab for his 45,000 followers. “It’s that simple.”
These right-wing invocations of violence and “civil war” could have deadly consequences, warned Michael Hayden, spokesperson for the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization.
“Hard right and white supremacist social influencers have pushed civil war rhetoric repeatedly since Trump’s rise,” Hayden told HuffPost. “Whenever something happens to threaten their movement, they push it again, stoking outrage for profit. Although these calls for violence are unlikely to mobilize a large group without a unifying event like Unite the Right or Trump’s speech on January 6, they can certainly inspire horrific acts of violence, like we have seen in places like Pittsburgh, El Paso, and Buffalo.”
The rhetoric is especially worrisome when it comes from candidates for public office and sitting lawmakers, like far-right Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.).
“This is the rogue behavior of communist countries, NOT the United States of America!!!,” Greene tweeted. “These are the type of things that happen in countries during civil war.”
Kari Lake, the GOP nominee for governor of Arizona who earned an endorsement from Trump in the primary, said the raid was “one of the darkest days in American history,” and warned her followers that “not a single one of us is safe.”
And Laura Loomer, a far-right activist currently running for Congress in Florida, wrote to her followers on Telegram that it was “time to take the gloves off.”
“If you’re a freedom-loving American, you must remove the words decorum and civility from your vocabulary,” Loomer wrote. “This is a WAR! And it’s time to obliterate these communists.”
In Pennsylvania, state Rep. Rob Kauffman shared — and then deleted — a Facebook post from an account called The Federalist Papers that stated: “Sadly, the USA as envisioned by our founders is officially dead and we have now become a police state. Biden, the DOJ, and FBI crossed a line and now politics as usual must be dead as well.”
In the online MAGA fever swamps, the language was similar, if a little more direct.
On Patriots.win, the extreme pro-Trump message board, the top comment on Tuesday implored the former president’s supporters to take up arms.
“Lock and load,” it said.
_______
i swore an oath to defend this country against enemies both foreign AND domestic. go ahead conservatives, give me a reason to fulfil the domestic part. most of you conservatives with guns only shot at paper targets. i didn't...
Go to the covid timeline. He lied. He continued to lie. He said he lied to not cause a panic. He said that.
He said he thought real leaders should not wear masks. He said the virus would go away when it got warm.
The timeline of covid and his response is the definition of failure of the oath of office. His claims about what "he" did were after the facts of covid were know to the public.
Selective memory.
It is very easy research to track the covid timeline and trumps response. He cost thousands of lives. Read about the victims and their families and what they said about following trumps lead.
From when it was found out and what he said and knew to be the truth. Hydroxychloroquine? Is all of lies so easily forgotten.
Take it upon yourself to do the research and find the facts.
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Maybe so. We'll see. I'll take your point as fair.
Saw this infographic today, which I think is informative about the scale of the problem:
i dont get these dudes making comments like "well if they can do this to a former president, they can do it to you"
umm...isn't that a good thing? no one is above the law? we talk all time about how the elites never get held accountable. well now one is being held accountable, and conservative america hates it?
Trump is actually being treated like any other american, yet somehow that's a problem. i don't get it.
Trumpian GOPers are like star trek's borg drones, they have an inept hive mind. They can be reprogrammed on the fly. Attempts to deprogram them are futile.
Go to the covid timeline. He lied. He continued to lie. He said he lied to not cause a panic. He said that.
He said he thought real leaders should not wear masks. He said the virus would go away when it got warm.
The timeline of covid and his response is the definition of failure of the oath of office. His claims about what "he" did were after the facts of covid were know to the public.
Selective memory.
It is very easy research to track the covid timeline and trumps response. He cost thousands of lives. Read about the victims and their families and what they said about following trumps lead.
From when it was found out and what he said and knew to be the truth. Hydroxychloroquine? Is all of lies so easily forgotten.
Take it upon yourself to do the research and find the facts.
actually, I'm quoting articles that were published when/where he spoke. not, opinions, selective memory, or opinion pieces.
Every president downplays everything... If they didn't it would be pure pandemonium and anarchy.
If anything, these people were following the news media's lead and a bunch of people fear-mongering. Not so much what Trump Trump said or did.
He got the shot. He got the booster. He wanted to be able to say he to get it into production before Biden got into office and out in some capacity to the public.
Former President Donald Trump says he received a booster vaccine shot for Covid-19 — but he doesn’t want to hear any criticism about it.
“Oh, don’t, don’t, don’t!” said Trump, waving his hand dismissively, as some people in an audience in Dallas on Sunday afternoon seemed to react negatively to the Republican saying he got the booster.
When some in the Dallas crowd started hooting about that, Trump told them to stop. He then claimed that the negative noise only came “from a very tiny group over there,” as he pointed to his left.
Trump also said during the same show, “We saved tens of millions worldwide by creating the vaccine.”
“It would have been like the Spanish flu without it. … We should take credit for it, and you play right into their hands” when you question the vaccine’s value, he added.
On March 28, 2020, the FDA issued an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to allow hydroxychloroquine sulfate and chloroquine phosphate products donated to the Strategic National Stockpile(SNS) to be distributed and used for certain hospitalized patients with COVID-19. These drugs will be distributed from the SNS to states for doctors to prescribe to adolescent and adult patients hospitalized with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible.
So, was it Trump or the FDA who approved it for emergency use?
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says "wiped? You mean like with a cloth?" 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You're a joke man.
Didn't take long to see your colors. Look it's another brainwashed Trumpian, everyone. lmao. We've seen dozens like you come and go after doing the whole Felicia 4 Trump bit. Trump is a traitor pal, plain and simple.
I think it’s so funny how you guys think conservatives are the ones manipulated.
How exactly do you guys not see the stronghold democrats have on information?
How do you not see stories like Hunter Biden’s laptop just disappear and get swept under the rug?(not changing subject just giving an example)
Democrats control 99% of the main stream media on your tv.
Google is ran by a bunch of liberal hacks.
Facebook and Twitter, ran by liberal hacks.
Academia, ran by liberal hack professors.
Democrats literally have a monopoly on information available to us and if something gets out that they don’t approve of or don’t want you guys to see, they simply censor it.
Are you guys that manipulated that you don’t see or comprehend this?
___________________
It really is time for you to find some other place to try to settle down. We've seen your type here, many times before. They have come in waves. And they have always left in droves.
Here is something you have failed to comprehend: the people who congregate at this web address don't come for the politics. They come for the Browns. We are a community. And we know a Browns fan when we see one. We also can smell an outsider when he infiltrates, from the aroma of freshly-stirred s# that surrounds him.
Take your lame, tired, hackneyed tripe to a website that hasn't already seen a million vacuous trolls like you. Your game is lame. And we're better than you.
Go away. Your tie is wasted here.
You truly are a radical liberal, this is exactly how they act. Run their mouth non stop and can’t stand to even hear another point of view. So then they gang up name call and act like a child because they don’t have a simple answer for the other persons point of view. I truly hope you guys are in your 20s because if you are a grown men and still believe the liberal BS than you are pathetic.
It's not even the January 6th stuff, it's the National Archive going after him. LMAO. What backlash? Against the National Archive enforcing document preservation? smh. Only a traitorous party of thugs could get mad about that.
Like when Hillary used unsecured email for years to conduct classified state business?? I bet you were real outraged then 😂😂
Like when they asked her why she wiped all the info on her computer and she says "wiped? You mean like with a cloth?" 😂😂 I bet you were so outraged then. You're a joke man.
Didn't take long to see your colors. Look it's another brainwashed Trumpian, everyone. lmao. We've seen dozens like you come and go after doing the whole Felicia 4 Trump bit. Trump is a traitor pal, plain and simple.
I think it’s so funny how you guys think conservatives are the ones manipulated.
How exactly do you guys not see the stronghold democrats have on information?
How do you not see stories like Hunter Biden’s laptop just disappear and get swept under the rug?(not changing subject just giving an example)
Democrats control 99% of the main stream media on your tv.
Google is ran by a bunch of liberal hacks.
Facebook and Twitter, ran by liberal hacks.
Academia, ran by liberal hack professors.
Democrats literally have a monopoly on information available to us and if something gets out that they don’t approve of or don’t want you guys to see, they simply censor it.
Are you guys that manipulated that you don’t see or comprehend this?
___________________
It really is time for you to find some other place to try to settle down. We've seen your type here, many times before. They have come in waves. And they have always left in droves.
Here is something you have failed to comprehend: the people who congregate at this web address don't come for the politics. They come for the Browns. We are a community. And we know a Browns fan when we see one. We also can smell an outsider when he infiltrates, from the aroma of freshly-stirred s# that surrounds him.
Take your lame, tired, hackneyed tripe to a website that hasn't already seen a million vacuous trolls like you. Your game is lame. And we're better than you.
Go away. Your tie is wasted here.
And guess what I’m not going anywhere because this isn’t a a radical liberal Nazi forum. This is exactly what the main stream media does anytime someone comes in with the truth or an opinion that differs from theirs they try to talk over them and shoot it down before they can even get the words out of her mouth. Pathetic children.
And guess what I’m not going anywhere because this isn’t a a radical liberal Nazi forum.
No... it's a Cleveland Browns forum. Probably even more extreme.
To Clem's point, every once in a while there comes along a "new" poster with a very familiar posting style. Each time, it takes about a week or two of arguing with just about everyone and that person is no longer posting. You came along at about the usual time to restart that cycle, so the assumption is that we have the same situation here. We're just trying to speed up this part of the cycle.
I believe people need to think this through rather than just act emotionally without having any clarity. Let's recap shall we?
A former president takes home 15 boxes of classified documents. Some of them said to be top secret. The FBI has been trying to get him to hand them over since January that we know about. He still refused to hand them over and had lawyers fighting against handing them over. Since he refused to hand them over, Christopher Wray, a Trump appointee who is neither a Democrat nor a liberal, nor anti Trump runs the FBI. The FBI took their findings and request for a warrant to the DOJ. The DOJ could find no legitimate reason to stop them from taking the warrant request to a judge. When a judge looked at the warrant request he or she saw sufficient evidence to grant and sign the warrant
It was the FBI who is ran by Trump's own hand picked appointee that made a request for a warrant. Not some liberal cabal. Many have been programmed and feel some sense of faux outrage because you can't seem to grasp this and are being played yet once again.
Oh and BTW. This whole "third world country" "banana Republic" BS? Those spouting such nonsense seem to think if you follow the rule of law that somehow makes you these things. That there should be no accountability of leaders and former leaders. Such accountability is exactly what makes us none of those things. What they want you to forget and fail to remind you of is that while the US has never criminally charged a former president other democracies across the world — including close US allies like South Korea, France, and Israel — have prosecuted, convicted, and even jailed former leaders. Netanyahu of Israel is currently undergoing an investigation and criminal charges.
Two of France former presidents were found guilty of corruption and one of them was sentenced to jail although he is appealing. These nations are our close allies and not third world countries or banana republics.
Not to take away from your point, but there's a little wrinkle in the timeline (start reading the above link at Jan 2022).
National Archives DID receive those 15 boxes back earlier this year after a bunch of legal wrangling. When they got them back, they found that they contained a bunch of classified information (something Trump was never supposed to have taken in the first place), and possibly more should have been turned over (I'm assuming Trump either retained or destroyed those parts). Then they went in (but apparently after a whole bunch of activity behind the scenes which included the Justice Dept, a grand jury, etc).
Doesn't really change what you're saying at all, but I know I was confused earlier about the actually status of those 15 boxes at the time of the raid.
You truly are a radical liberal, this is exactly how they act. Run their mouth non stop and can’t stand to even hear another point of view. So then they gang up name call and act like a child because they don’t have a simple answer for the other persons point of view. I truly hope you guys are in your 20s because if you are a grown men and still believe the liberal BS than you are pathetic.
Cry a little harder, you sad little victim.
You came here looking for a fight. Now that you have one on your hands, you can't handle the pushback. And you aren't being ganged up upon... you are being debated by individual folks who disagree with your take. Your take is stupid and unpopular with thinking, rational people. And that's not our problem to solve.
Expect this kind of pushback for as long as you troll this web address. It will never stop. But you will. Your kind always does. Schoolyard bullies who get punched out in public always run and hide. You'll be gone soon enough. Until then, your life at Dawgtalkers will be a hell of your own making.
We don't like you. Go someplace where you are welcome. If I were you, I'd first look under a bridge.
I believe people need to think this through rather than just act emotionally without having any clarity. Let's recap shall we?
A former president takes home 15 boxes of classified documents. Some of them said to be top secret. The FBI has been trying to get him to hand them over since January that we know about. He still refused to hand them over and had lawyers fighting against handing them over. Since he refused to hand them over, Christopher Wray, a Trump appointee who is neither a Democrat nor a liberal, nor anti Trump runs the FBI. The FBI took their findings and request for a warrant to the DOJ. The DOJ could find no legitimate reason to stop them from taking the warrant request to a judge. When a judge looked at the warrant request he or she saw sufficient evidence to grant and sign the warrant
It was the FBI who is ran by Trump's own hand picked appointee that made a request for a warrant. Not some liberal cabal. Many have been programmed and feel some sense of faux outrage because you can't seem to grasp this and are being played yet once again.
Oh and BTW. This whole "third world country" "banana Republic" BS? Those spouting such nonsense seem to think if you follow the rule of law that somehow makes you these things. That there should be no accountability of leaders and former leaders. Such accountability is exactly what makes us none of those things. What they want you to forget and fail to remind you of is that while the US has never criminally charged a former president other democracies across the world — including close US allies like South Korea, France, and Israel — have prosecuted, convicted, and even jailed former leaders. Netanyahu of Israel is currently undergoing an investigation and criminal charges.
Two of France former presidents were found guilty of corruption and one of them was sentenced to jail although he is appealing. These nations are our close allies and not third world countries or banana republics.
My fear is the 85,000 new IRS agents are also going to be used in that manner as well. You don't need that many to look in to large corporations.
What makes you think that? Do you have any idea how much paperwork there is in the financing of large corporations?
Deloitte LLP is the largest accounting firm (by net revenue) in the US. They have 345,000 employees.
The second largest is PricewaterhouseCoopers. They have 295,000 employees.
The third largest is Ernst & Young LLP, they have 312,000 employees.
These aren't all accountants, of course. -- but 85,000 IRS agents is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of accountants working for businesses.
Maybe so. We'll see. I'll take your point as fair.
Saw this infographic today, which I think is informative about the scale of the problem:
Part of that is those returns are professionally done. That doesn't mean people might not try to shield some income, but there usually aren't mistakes in the return
Also, how many IRS agents are there? My other question is what type of agents are being hired? Are they auditors, or special agents who carry guns? We have all seen the reports that the IRS has bought thousands of weapons and stockpiles 5 million rounds of ammo. I mean, if the function of the IRS is to audit returns, why do that even need that? Why can't other agencies of the IRS be in the gun toting business?
I still maintain 85,000 is an excessive number. I'd rather see more border agents hired.
just to remind everyone: the current FBI director was appointed by trump.
So?
If you think showing up at a former Presidents home with guns in hand is the way to do this, I can't help you.
This is 2 bit nation crap.
You're stopping short of the real point to be made here. This has never been done before, and stuff coming out now sounds like it has been in the works for a while (since at least January). Biden didn't emerge from his fog of dementia and say "you know who I haven't heard from lately? That Trump fella... we should give him the 'Cornpop treatment'".
just to remind everyone: the current FBI director was appointed by trump.
So?
If you think showing up at a former Presidents home with guns in hand is the way to do this, I can't help you.
This is 2 bit nation crap.
Not really. Trump is well known for destroying classified documents in the WH, and at Mar-a-Maga and the FBI director knows it. Bad week for the party of law and order right?
He proposes that a subpoena should have been used first. You know, that thing trump always fights against and eventually loses in court. That trump should have been allowed to hang onto these documents that he illegally possessed for God knows how long while he screamed and threw a tantrum about. Even after he's been fighting turning them over since January that we know of. In the end, if he had been issued a subpoena they would have been screaming the same thing.
And guess what I’m not going anywhere because this isn’t a a radical liberal Nazi forum.
No... it's a Cleveland Browns forum. Probably even more extreme.
To Clem's point, every once in a while there comes along a "new" poster with a very familiar posting style. Each time, it takes about a week or two of arguing with just about everyone and that person is no longer posting. You came along at about the usual time to restart that cycle, so the assumption is that we have the same situation here. We're just trying to speed up this part of the cycle.
Most of these beta male Trumpians last less than a month in here. This guy might last two weeks before he sulks all the way home.
Violent rhetoric circulates on the pro-Trump internet following FBI search, including from a Jan. 6 rioter
“Lock and load,” was one of the top comments on an online forum dedicated to former President Donald Trump on Monday night, soon after it emerged his Florida Mar-a-Lago resort had been searched by the FBI.
Other posts were more explicit, “I’m just going to say it. [Attorney General Merrick] Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that.” Another user posted, “kill all feds.”
Users also encouraged others to post the address of the judge they believe signed off on the search warrant. “I see a rope around his neck,” a comment under a picture of the judge read.
On the same forum, researchers previously found talk of violence and discussion on how to attack police officers in the weeks leading up to the January 6, 2021, attack.
Amid the users on the forum Monday night was a convicted US Capitol rioter.
One reply to the top-rated “lock and load” post came from an account with the username bananaguard62 and asked “Are we not in a cold civil war at this point?”
By combing through bananaguard62’s posts, Advance Democracy, a non-partisan, non-profit organization that conducts public-interest investigations, identified Tyler Welsh Slaeker as running the account.
Slaeker was charged by the Justice Department last summer in connection with the January 6 attack. Slaeker’s in-laws tipped off the FBI about his presence at the Capitol, according to court filings, making him one of the many January 6 rioters who were turned in by family members.
He was initially charged with four nonviolent misdemeanors, and pleaded guilty in June to one count of entering a restricted building. His sentencing is scheduled for November.
NBC News was first to report Advance Democracy’s findings on Slaeker. His attorney did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
It can be difficult to distinguish between empty and serious threats of violence online, but it cannot be ignored, said Daniel J. Jones, a former US Senate investigator who led the investigation into the CIA’s use of torture and now runs Advance Democracy, a non-partisan, non-profit organization that conducts public-interest investigations.
“We are seeing conspiratorial rhetoric from elected officials, political leaders, and political entertainers that is fueling calls for real-world violence,” Jones said. “The conspiratorial and divisive rhetoric – from elected officials and others who should know better – is continuing to undermine our institutions and democracy at an alarming rate.”
A congressional security official told CNN shortly after news of the search warrant broke Monday night, US Capitol Police began discussions about monitoring and planning for potential violent rhetoric.
Of particular concern is the possibility violence could be directed at members of Congress or other federal law enforcement, the security official said.
The Capitol Police declined to comment on security plans.
One post CNN found called for violence against FBI agents. The FBI declined to comment on the post or wider security concerns due to violent rhetoric.
After the January 6 attack, alternative social media platforms became more popular among Trump supporters after companies like Facebook and Twitter banned Trump and some other prominent figures who spread election conspiracy theories.
Those platforms, like Trump’s own Truth Social site, tout themselves as bastions of free speech, with looser rules and moderation. But that can result in the proliferation of violent rhetoric. CNN reported in June how threats against members of the January 6 House select committee circulated on those platforms.
But talk of violence isn’t exclusive to the more fringe platforms.
There was a surge in tweets Monday mentioning “civil war” – at some points more than one tweet a second, according to a CNN review of data from Dataminr, a service that tracks Twitter activity. While some mentions of “civil war” came from Trump critics expressing fear what his supporters might do – one researcher posted multiple screenshots of Twitter accounts outright calling for civil war.
Jones, whose group Advance Democracy has been tracking online threats since the FBI raid on Monday, said political leaders posting on their main social media accounts are stoking more violent rhetoric.
“The attack on the Capitol on January 6th showed that we can’t ignore calls for political violence online – no matter how fringe the theories are behind those calls for violence,” Jones said.
Violent rhetoric circulates on the pro-Trump internet following FBI search, including from a Jan. 6 rioter
“Lock and load,” was one of the top comments on an online forum dedicated to former President Donald Trump on Monday night, soon after it emerged his Florida Mar-a-Lago resort had been searched by the FBI.
Other posts were more explicit, “I’m just going to say it. [Attorney General Merrick] Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that.” Another user posted, “kill all feds.”
Users also encouraged others to post the address of the judge they believe signed off on the search warrant. “I see a rope around his neck,” a comment under a picture of the judge read.
On the same forum, researchers previously found talk of violence and discussion on how to attack police officers in the weeks leading up to the January 6, 2021, attack.
Amid the users on the forum Monday night was a convicted US Capitol rioter.
One reply to the top-rated “lock and load” post came from an account with the username bananaguard62 and asked “Are we not in a cold civil war at this point?”
By combing through bananaguard62’s posts, Advance Democracy, a non-partisan, non-profit organization that conducts public-interest investigations, identified Tyler Welsh Slaeker as running the account.
Slaeker was charged by the Justice Department last summer in connection with the January 6 attack. Slaeker’s in-laws tipped off the FBI about his presence at the Capitol, according to court filings, making him one of the many January 6 rioters who were turned in by family members.
He was initially charged with four nonviolent misdemeanors, and pleaded guilty in June to one count of entering a restricted building. His sentencing is scheduled for November.
NBC News was first to report Advance Democracy’s findings on Slaeker. His attorney did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
It can be difficult to distinguish between empty and serious threats of violence online, but it cannot be ignored, said Daniel J. Jones, a former US Senate investigator who led the investigation into the CIA’s use of torture and now runs Advance Democracy, a non-partisan, non-profit organization that conducts public-interest investigations.
“We are seeing conspiratorial rhetoric from elected officials, political leaders, and political entertainers that is fueling calls for real-world violence,” Jones said. “The conspiratorial and divisive rhetoric – from elected officials and others who should know better – is continuing to undermine our institutions and democracy at an alarming rate.”
A congressional security official told CNN shortly after news of the search warrant broke Monday night, US Capitol Police began discussions about monitoring and planning for potential violent rhetoric.
Of particular concern is the possibility violence could be directed at members of Congress or other federal law enforcement, the security official said.
The Capitol Police declined to comment on security plans.
One post CNN found called for violence against FBI agents. The FBI declined to comment on the post or wider security concerns due to violent rhetoric.
After the January 6 attack, alternative social media platforms became more popular among Trump supporters after companies like Facebook and Twitter banned Trump and some other prominent figures who spread election conspiracy theories.
Those platforms, like Trump’s own Truth Social site, tout themselves as bastions of free speech, with looser rules and moderation. But that can result in the proliferation of violent rhetoric. CNN reported in June how threats against members of the January 6 House select committee circulated on those platforms.
But talk of violence isn’t exclusive to the more fringe platforms.
There was a surge in tweets Monday mentioning “civil war” – at some points more than one tweet a second, according to a CNN review of data from Dataminr, a service that tracks Twitter activity. While some mentions of “civil war” came from Trump critics expressing fear what his supporters might do – one researcher posted multiple screenshots of Twitter accounts outright calling for civil war.
Jones, whose group Advance Democracy has been tracking online threats since the FBI raid on Monday, said political leaders posting on their main social media accounts are stoking more violent rhetoric.
“The attack on the Capitol on January 6th showed that we can’t ignore calls for political violence online – no matter how fringe the theories are behind those calls for violence,” Jones said.
Trump Made It A Felony To Mishandle Classified Documents In 2018 Sara Boboltz Wed, August 10, 2022, 1:21 PM·1 min read
Few details have been made public as to why, exactly, the FBI and Department of Justice felt the urgent need to raid former president Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort on Monday.
Reports indicate Trump had been holding onto materials that were supposed to have been turned over to the National Archives. But officials have not commented on what was contained in those records ― and whether there are implications for U.S. national security.
The lack of information leaves only speculation about what sort of potential criminal activity the Department of Justice is looking into.
Oddly enough, one of the multiple laws covering the mishandling of government information is one that Trump himself amended during his tenure in the Oval Office, as pointed out by Tennessee state Sen. Jeff Yarbro (D) on Twitter.
Tucked into a bill Trump signed into law in January 2018 was a provision increasing the punishment for knowingly removing classified materials with the intent to retain them at an “unauthorized location.”
Previously, someone found guilty of this crime could face up to one year in prison. When former CIA Director David Petraeus was charged in 2015 with mishandling classified data, he pleaded guilty under this statute to avoid a felony charge, as Politico pointed out. A similar situation unfolded a decade earlier, when former national security adviser Samuel Berger pleaded guilty to removing terrorism-related materials from the National Archives in 2005.
Now, a person convicted of violating this law can face up to five years in prison ― making it a felony-level offense to mishandle classified documents under 18 U.S.C. 1924.
Could 2018 Trump have unknowingly put 2022 Trump in a tough spot?
And guess what I’m not going anywhere because this isn’t a a radical liberal Nazi forum.
No... it's a Cleveland Browns forum. Probably even more extreme.
To Clem's point, every once in a while there comes along a "new" poster with a very familiar posting style. Each time, it takes about a week or two of arguing with just about everyone and that person is no longer posting. You came along at about the usual time to restart that cycle, so the assumption is that we have the same situation here. We're just trying to speed up this part of the cycle.
Come on…you have to like the fact he said “radical liberal Nazi.” I mean, that ranks up there with the all time great oxymorons.
Like saying “I consider myself a rather conservative communist”
just to remind everyone: the current FBI director was appointed by trump.
So?
If you think showing up at a former Presidents home with guns in hand is the way to do this, I can't help you.
This is 2 bit nation crap.
You're stopping short of the real point to be made here. This has never been done before, and stuff coming out now sounds like it has been in the works for a while (since at least January). Biden didn't emerge from his fog of dementia and say "you know who I haven't heard from lately? That Trump fella... we should give him the 'Cornpop treatment'".
You’re killing me, man. I read that last line and started laughing so hard I woke my wife up. It’s your fault.
Here’s the thing. A sitting president has the right to declassify anything he or she chooses. I’m not saying he did this, just that he could have.
To be honest, Donald Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to pull a chess move like that. His lifelong reputation as an impulsive, instinctive counter-puncher makes it highly unlikely that he thought that far ahead. But that's really not the point, at this particular moment. The real point is simple: he took official US government documents that didn't belong to him, and stored them in an unsecured location. At this particular moment, he is no longer a sitting POTUS, so he is now a private citizen in possession of material that he isn't lawfully allowed to have.
This isn't complicated, and it doesn't require arcane lawyerly arguments about the breadth and scope of Presidential privilege. A private citizen was in possession of property that lawfully belongs to We The People. That's why the rule is on the books. We made the rule after Richard Nixon tried his "Tricky Dick" s# back in the '70's.
_______________________
From the start of his presidency, I told everybody that his biggest problem would always be that he'd insist on running his presidency in the same fashion that he's always run his private enterprises... and as a result, he'd always have legal and ethical troubles because of it. Ummmm... did I call it in 2017, or what?
Now, that same energy is following him 1.5 years after he left 1600 Penn. Because he can't help himself.
Look at his life history... those 4 years he spent in DC were lived exactly like he's lived every day of his adult life: slippery, shady, loose with rules, and always just a half- step ahead of The Law.
Some people are already saying that this FBI search warrant is purely political in nature. My Occam's Razor cuts a much shorter path. I think it's more a case of 'chickens coming home to roost'- all at once. This man is facing potential prosecution on at least 3 legal fronts simultaneously. Years ago, I told my Dawgtalkers' friend 40YEARSWAITING that DT was too corrupt to avoid ethics trouble, too venal to separate his money from his job, and too stupid to avoid impeachment. Still batting 1.000. Hit the base-clearing home run on that impeachment thing, didn't I?
He should have kept his ego in check. He should have never run for public office. If he'd not risen to Barack Obama's public mockery of him at the Press Corps dinner, he'd have been able to continue his life of grift and usury, staying just 1/2 step ahead of The Law, and insulated from the kind of scrutiny this impulsiveness has earned him. The minute he took office, he became a civil servant... beholding to public account before us all.
Ever since, his life has been a steadily-opening book of many revealing pages. Like I said: impulsive, instinctive counter-puncher. Now experiencing The Law of unintended consequences, indeed. Chickens. Roosting.
Sometimes, the simplest path with the fewest turns really is the correct path to follow. Occam's Razor. In my opinion, this man's story is one of those.
just to remind everyone: the current FBI director was appointed by trump.
So?
If you think showing up at a former Presidents home with guns in hand is the way to do this, I can't help you.
This is 2 bit nation crap.
You're stopping short of the real point to be made here. This has never been done before, and stuff coming out now sounds like it has been in the works for a while (since at least January). Biden didn't emerge from his fog of dementia and say "you know who I haven't heard from lately? That Trump fella... we should give him the 'Cornpop treatment'".
You’re killing me, man. I read that last line and started laughing so hard I woke my wife up. It’s your fault.
Bruh- I lost it, too. The whole time I was reading it, I was seeing Stephen Colbert with the Ray-Bans....
oobz: breaking the internet for our fun and amusement.
Far-Right Extremists Are Violently Threatening the Trump Search-Warrant Judge
“Let's find out if he has children... where they go to school, where they live... EVERYTHING,” one person wrote on a message board where the judge’s address was posted.
Far-right extremists on pro-Donald Trump message boards and social networks are making violent, antisemitic threats against the judge who reportedly signed the warrant that allowed the FBI to search the former president's Mar-a-Lago property in Florida.
Multiple members of these toxic online communities are even posting what appears to be Judge Bruce Reinhart’s home address, phone numbers, and names of his family members alongside threats of extreme violence.
“This is the piece of [censored] judge who approved FBI’s raid on Mar-a-Lago,” a user wrote on the pro-Trump message board formerly known as TheDonald. “I see a rope around his neck.”
Responding, another user wrote: “Idgaf [I don’t give a [censored]] anymore. Name? Address? Put that [censored] all up on here.” Moments later, a different member replied with what appears to be Reinhart’s current address, phone numbers, previous addresses, and names of possible relatives.
In another post on the same message board, one user commented, “Let's find out if he has children....where they go to school, where they live...EVERYTHING.”
These threats of violence and antisemitic slurs on a range of platforms, including 4chan, Telegram, Gettr, Gab, and Trump’s own platforms called Truth Social, were first uncovered by Advance Democracy, a nonpartisan and nonprofit organization that conducts public-interest investigations.
“The threats against Judge Reinhart in the wake of the Mar-a-Lago raid are significant,” Daniel J. Jones, founder of Advance Democracy, told VICE News. “In addition to the antisemitic and violent slurs, we’re seeing his address and other personal information being shared online—with the implied or explicit purpose of ‘real-life’ action.”
A message board where a number of these threats were posted also happens to be the same one where many of those involved in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot posted threats of violence in the lead-up to Jan. 6.
These threats against the judge, Jones told VICE News, are “all the more alerting given the events of January 6.”
These threats made against Reinhart and his family didn’t occur in a vacuum: Within hours of the FBI searching Trump’s Palm Beach home, the former president’s supporters reacted furiously, calling for civil war and the dismantling of the FBI. As Trump has scrambled to explain why his home was searched, he has also pushed conspiracy theories about the FBI supposedly planting evidence there.
Right-wing news outlets have also tried to connect the judge to convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Reinhart worked as a federal prosecutor until 2008, and a day after he quit, he became the defense attorney for a number of Epstein’s employees, including his pilots and a scheduler, according to his 2018 Miami Herald report. The link between Reinhart and Epstein has been weaponized by Trump supporters to incorrectly imply Reinhart was Epstein’s own lawyer, and, by extension, was corrupt and possibly a pedophile. (A small note in light of these accusations: Trump had a long personal relationship with Epstein, and once famously told New York Magazine that he was a “terrific guy.”)
On fringe message board 4chan, one user posted an image of Reinhart with the caption: “About that Judge that signed the search Warrant…Bruce Reinhart once quit his job as a U.S. Attorney to work for Jeffrey Epstein. Another 4chan user wrote in response: “That is a k***. And a pedophile … He should be tried for treason and executed.”
“The U.S. Marshals are responsible for the protection of the federal judicial process, and we take that responsibility very seriously,” a spokesperson for the U.S. Marshals told VICE News when asked for comment about the threats. “While we do not discuss our specific security measures, we continuously review the measures in place and take appropriate steps to ensure the integrity of the federal judicial process.”
The FBI deferred comment to the U.S. Marshals, and the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida told VICE News “the Court has no comment.”
Executing a valid search warrant, FBI agents arrived in the morning to search the office. The word “unprecedented” was on everyone’s lips. They seized business records, computers, and other documents related to possible crimes. An enraged Donald Trump denounced the FBI and the Justice Department, saying not that they had abided by the warrant issued by a federal judge, but rather that agents had “broken into” the office.
The year was 2018, and Trump was livid about the FBI’s investigation into his longtime attorney/fixer, Michael Cohen.
At the time, many observers, including me, assumed that the investigation would yield bushels of incriminating documents about Trump. Cohen was his personal lawyer, after all, the guy who wrote the hush-money checks to porn stars and presumably had access to many of Trump’s dodgy or downright illegal acts. It didn’t turn out that way. Yes, Cohen was prosecuted and pleaded guilty to eight counts of criminal tax evasion, campaign finance violations (that was the Stormy Daniels piece), and other frauds. But Trump himself? Nothing. He skated while his faithful minion became a guest of the Bureau of Prisons in Otisville, New York. It was soon thereafter that we learned from Cohen that Trump keeps few records, shuns emails, and speaks not in commands but in Mafia-esque insinuations. Trump doesn’t give direct orders, Cohen testified, he “speaks in code and I understand that code.”
So, there may be less than meets the eye in those crates the FBI carted off from Mar-a-Lago on Monday. Or it could be a motherlode of incrimination. We don’t know, we can only speculate. But what is not open to doubt is that the Republican party, which seemed to be flirting with post-Trumpism just a few weeks ago, has now come roaring back as an authoritarian cult. Trump has not changed. But he has changed Republicans.
Consider 2018 again. When the FBI searched Cohen’s office, Trump was Trump. He raged like a banshee. He declared that it was “an attack on our country” and a “disgraceful situation.” He keened that “attorney client privilege is dead” and implied that he might fire then-Special Counsel Robert Mueller.
Some Fox News bobbleheads treated the story as more evidence of a conspiracy to hurt the Dear Leader, but the network in general downplayed the event, devoting less air time to it than either CNN or MSNBC. Clearly that was intended to soothe the Trump partisans in the audience, but it was a far cry from the knee-jerk partisanship we see now.
As for the electeds, well, some Trump flunkies on Capitol Hill were echoing his complaints, but most were keeping silent while prominent Republicans were sending strong signals that firing Mueller would be out of bounds. The prevailing tone in Republican ranks was that the investigations, including Mueller’s, must be permitted to proceed according to the rules. Any interference would be unconscionable. Sen. Chuck Grassley, for example, told the Washington Post that it would be “suicide for the president to . . . talk about firing Mueller.” And Sens. Thom Tillis and Lindsey Graham teamed up with their Democratic colleagues, Sens. Chris Coons and Cory Booker, to propose the Special Counsel Independence and Integrity Act.
That was then. Four years later, the FBI has executed another warrant, this time to Trump’s office, and the Trump troops have leaped into battle mode. Betsy McCaughey, former New York lieutenant governor and New York Post columnist, tweeted, “The FBI is established by federal law. Its powers were increased under the Patriot act. What Congress creates Congress can destroy. When Republicans take back Congress, they should abolish the FBI, shut every field office, fire all staff, and start anew. #Trump #FBI #Newsmax.”
Rep. Paul Gosar was even more eager. “I will support a complete dismantling and elimination of the democrat brown shirts known as the FBI. This is too much for our republic to withstand @charliekirk11 @JackPosobiec @kelliwardaz @KariLake @andybiggs4az @GOPLeader @DonaldJTrumpJr.”
Anthony Sabatini, a Florida state representative and candidate for Congress, was prepared to dismantle the whole federal structure: “It’s time for us in the Florida Legislature to call an emergency legislative session & amend our laws regarding federal agencies. Sever all ties with DOJ immediately. Any FBI agent conducting law enforcement functions outside the purview of our State should be arrested upon sight.” That would go well.
Sen. Josh Hawley tweeted that “At a minimum, Garland must resign or be impeached. The search warrant must be published. [FBI Director] Christoper Wray must be removed. And the FBI reformed top to bottom.”
Trump is free to publish the warrant anytime he wishes. But Hawley presumably learned that at Yale Law School.
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene chants, “Defund the FBI.”
Newt Gingrich suggests that the feds might have planted evidence at Mar-a-Lago.
The party that backed the blue and disdained the defund-the-police crowd now flips. Gingrich is channeling Johnnie Cochran. Trump may be an ignoramus and a clod, but he has the capacity to turn people inside out.
Rep. Kevin McCarthy, the likely next speaker of the House, tweeted a threat to the attorney general:
Now, as a substantive matter, McCarthy’s tweet is meaningless. The House of Representatives, along with the Senate, already exercises oversight authority over the Justice Department. The Judiciary Committee asks the attorney general to testify regularly. That’s how the system works. And if McCarthy is truly concerned about “following the facts,” Merrick Garland has nothing to fear. But the importance of the tweet is not its substance but its tone—the call for vengeance. McCarthy displays zero interest in whether Trump actually committed a crime. The clear message is “You’ve gone after our leader so we’re coming for you.” The merits of Garland’s actions are irrelevant. The facts are irrelevant. It’s war.
For some in the wooly precincts of the MAGA right, the call to arms was literal. As Vice reported, some Trumpists were explicit: “‘Civil War 2.0 just kicked off,’ one user wrote on Twitter, with another adding, ‘One step closer to a kinetic civil war.’ Others said they were ready to take part: ‘I already bought my ammo.’” Steve Bannon, who was pardoned for bilking Trump supporters who thought they were building a wall, declared that “This is war” and called the FBI the “Gestapo.”
Trump is a sick soul who cannot imagine a world in which people act on principle or think about the welfare of others. While in power, Trump wanted to use the FBI to punish his political opponents (“Lock her up”) and reward his friends (“Go easy on Michael Flynn”). He projects his own corrupt motives onto others and assumes that the FBI investigation is nothing but a Democratic power grab. It would be pathetic if he had not dragged an entire political party into the fever swamps with him.
This experiment in self-government requires a minimum amount of social trust to succeed. With every tweet that spreads cynicism and lies, with every call to arms that welcomes civil conflict, Trumpist Republicans are poisoning the nation they so ostentatiously claim to love.
Since Trump ceded moral authority to the Dems with his crap show in office, blatantly breaking laws, the right has projected what they want to do. I find it humorous that they are threatening to go after political adversaries with witch hunts while crying Trump's legal issues stem from a political witch hunt. YET WE HAVE EVIDENCE WHERE THEY HAVE NONE.
I find it humorous that they are threatening to go after political adversaries with witch hunts while crying Trump's legal issues stem from a political witch hunt. YET WE HAVE EVIDENCE WHERE THEY HAVE NONE.
Quoted your post so it doesn't get lost due to the long article.
Imagine how far into people's heads he has to be for them to still support him after all the crap he's been caught red-handed in. And I don't care what anybody says, he's in bed with Putin, if not outright owned by him.
The President can declassify information.. The President can’t say that box is declassified now load it on the plane.
You got to do the paperwork to declassify anything that has a classification.
Exactly, you can't just say it's declassified, you have to document it.. my guess is that he didn't. If you can't find the paper trail, it didn't officially happen.
My personal opinion is that claiming the documents are declassified could be risky. I think that he is trying to hide specific documents that either embarrass him, make him look bad, or put him at some legal risk. If he declassifies these documents then someone will certainly make the contents publicly known.
JMO
But if he doesn't want that stuff hidden then why doesn't he show us the warrent that states what they are looking for and why? Why doesn't he share the inventory list if everything they took? He has copies of those things and there is nothing keeping him from making those documents public.
Republicans be like….I’m not a fan of Donald Trump, but it’s chilling to realize this can happen to anyone of us after live tweeting 34 consecutive crimes.
Here’s the thing. A sitting president has the right to declassify anything he or she chooses. I’m not saying he did this, just that he could have.
The problem here I believe would be he would need to show some proof that they were declassified before he left office. If not that claim could be made at any time with any government documents without any evidence they had actually been declassified while he still had the authority to do so.
That seemed rather obvious since they had continued talks all the way through June that we know of and maybe even longer. They also demanded all of the documents much earlier and trump turned over 15 boxes back in February. What he did not do is turn over even close to all of the documents as required by law. The reports I've seen is that there were 12 remaining boxes they removed Monday.
And somehow trump supporters keep claiming exercising a legal subpoena is everything except what it is. Retrieving illegally retained government documents. Trump knows there's evidence that will show his criminal activities among those documents. That's the reason he and his cronies are already setting the stage to claim what they find in those documents were planted. I used to find it would have been impossible to believe people would keep buying his BS. But not anymore.
i dont get these dudes making comments like "well if they can do this to a former president, they can do it to you"
By doing this to the Former President, what they are really saying is that nobody is above the law.. and by the way, they have always had the ability to do this to you and I.... ALWAYS.
Orwell's Animal Farm, some Pigs are better than other Pigs....Trump, he's the top pig...a quote from raid article-"The unprecedented search of an ex-president’s residence marked the apex of a fight between Trump and his overt disdain for the Presidential Records Act of 1978 – which mandates preservation of official records – and parties tasked with upholding that law." He's positive he's above the law....time will tell....GOD willing he's jail bound.
FBI sought nuclear documents in search of Trump's home - Washington P
WASHINGTON, Aug 11 (Reuters) - U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.
It was not clear if such documents were recovered, the Post reported.
Trump has until Friday afternoon to decide to whether to fight the release of the Mar-a-Lago search warrant. His team is considering challenging the motion, per reports. Charles R. Davis and Kelsey Vlamis 2 hours ago
Former President Donald Trump could unilaterally release the warrant that federal agents used to search his resort and residence at Mar-a-Lago. But news reports suggest that Trump and his allies are still trying to decide whether or not to fight the Department of Justice's motion to unseal the document — and the list of goods that were confiscated.
At a Thursday afternoon press conference, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that he was moving to release the search warrant in light of the publicity surrounding the case. The judge who signed off on the warrant has ordered the Department of Justice to confer with Trump's attorneys and inform the court by 3 p.m. on Friday as to whether the former president plans to fight the release.
According to The New York Times, Trump's allies are "discussing the possibility of challenging" the release of the documents and have "contacted outside lawyers" to discuss the matter. CNN reported Thursday evening that the former president and his team "have not yet reached a decision." One source told the outlet Trump's team is considering challenging the motion to unseal the warrant. Both outlets reported that his team is consulting with outside attorneys.
William Jeffress, a lawyer who previously represented former President Richard Nixon, told Insider that he would not object to a client wanting to release the documents on their own, as is Trump's right. But there are mitigating factors, he noted.
"As a defense lawyer, I see no danger that release of the items would hurt his legal defense," Jeffress said. "But it surely might hurt his effort in the media to characterize the search as baseless or abusive."
Details around what led to the raid have been scarce, with many Republican lawmakers demanding an explanation from the Justice Department after the search was carried out and publicized by Trump on Monday. Before Garland's announcement on Thursday, the Justice Department and FBI had offered no comment.
The lack of details fueled accusations by the former president and other Republicans that the raid was politically motivated. The calls for transparency continued even after Garland said he was moving to have the search warrant released.
"What I am looking for is the predicate for the search. Was the information provided to the judge sufficient and necessary to authorize a raid on the former president's home within ninety days of the midterm election?" Sen. Lindsey Graham said in a statement provided to Insider. "I am urging, actually insisting, the DOJ and the FBI lay their cards on the table as to why this course of action was necessary. Until that is done the suspicion will continue to mount."
Garland also suggested Thursday the move to have the warrant released was in part to defend the FBI's actions.
"I will not stand by silently when their integrity is unfairly attacked," he said. "The men and women of the FBI and the Justice Department are dedicated, patriotic public servants."
Relax, it's not like ANYONE affiliated with him could read them. But keep an eye out for the micro fish film rolls, you know a guy who won't text or email is rolling old school.
They were looking for nuclear documents. Top secret nuclear documents. How and why Trump had them can't possibly be accidental.
Freaking nuclear documents. And somehow people are going to excuse this and continue to claim this is some kind of political Witch Hunt. SMH
Nuclear documents. F me.
Can you bring your own receipts? I'm not challenging you in an adversarial way... I'm just now seeing this for the first time, and would like come context.
No doubt we will watch it unfold. I'm pretty sure there will be some truth to this claim, whether or not the search was founded on good reasoning might be a different talking point. Hopefully we get to see the search warrant as so many leading republicans demanded.
Peen, maybe you need to review your stance on some of these issues. It really seems to be that amy news that you don't like, rather than debate or asses it, you dismiss it as outright lies. Respected and long serving public servants testifying about Jan 6th who testified under oath were dismissed by you and you instead sited unnamed sources who weren't under oath to suggest a different narrative. Now you don't like the FBI and your first reaction is to call into question the ethics and trust of the entire FBI.
There is always a chance there are shinanigans. But it seems you place trust in highly questionable places and want to dismiss that which has a higher probability of being more accurate/truthful.
They’re starting to post it all over the place now with the DOJ looking to release the warrant information too. Apparently Trump won’t contest its release.
What irks me a TON about this, too, on a personal level, is the process that played out over time. I said the same thing about Clinton, too, before the what-about crowd starts.
Had I left a SCIF with so much as a tiny piece of paper with a word on it, I’d be dragged through the ringer, instantly. Instantly. Part of that is to avoid the chance that any of that information could be reproduced in an u classified environment.
They let this play out over time and gave multiple chances to recoup the data. Who knows what happened with it in the interim. It doesn’t sound like any of it was kept in an approved stored environment, and believe me, there are a lot of boxes to check before an environment is “secure.”
They’re starting to post it all over the place now with the DOJ looking to release the warrant information too. Apparently Trump won’t contest its release.
What irks me a TON about this, too, on a personal level, is the process that played out over time. I said the same thing about Clinton, too, before the what-about crowd starts.
Had I left a SCIF with so much as a tiny piece of paper with a word on it, I’d be dragged through the ringer, instantly. Instantly. Part of that is to avoid the chance that any of that information could be reproduced in an u classified environment.
They let this play out over time and gave multiple chances to recoup the data. Who knows what happened with it in the interim. It doesn’t sound like any of it was kept in an approved stored environment, and believe me, there are a lot of boxes to check before an environment is “secure.”
Unreal.
Brings a new twist to this story from a few years back:
I'm confused by this whole narrative. It seems a bit like witch hunt with sprinklings of media sensationalism. But at the end of the day, if any of it proves to be true, throw the dolt in the fire. If he doesn't understand the meaning of "classified information", that's on him.
There are definitely some 2+2=5 moments though.
National Archives home page:
We drive openness, cultivate public participation, and strengthen our nation’s democracy through public access to high-value government records.
Our mission is to provide public access to Federal Government records in our custody and control. Public access to government records strengthens democracy by allowing Americans to claim their rights of citizenship, hold their government accountable, and understand their history so they can participate more effectively in their government.
What is the National Archives ?
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is the nation's record keeper. Of all documents and materials created in the course of business conducted by the United States Federal government, only 1%-3% are so important for legal or historical reasons that they are kept by us forever.
Those valuable records are preserved and are available to you, whether you want to see if they contain clues about your family's history, need to prove a veteran's military service, or are researching a historical topic that interests you.
These people handle things like Census Records, Congressional Records, Genealogy...
Please explain to me how and why they would suspect "nuclear documents" are missing?
Or are there no nuclear documents missing, but just saying "we're looking for them" will cause outrage whether they are missing or not? Read this board -- everyone is legit acting like they already found them on Trump's bathroom floor.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
No doubt we will watch it unfold. I'm pretty sure there will be some truth to this claim, whether or not the search was founded on good reasoning might be a different talking point. Hopefully we get to see the search warrant as so many leading republicans demanded.
Peen, maybe you need to review your stance on some of these issues. It really seems to be that amy news that you don't like, rather than debate or asses it, you dismiss it as outright lies. Respected and long serving public servants testifying about Jan 6th who testified under oath were dismissed by you and you instead sited unnamed sources who weren't under oath to suggest a different narrative. Now you don't like the FBI and your first reaction is to call into question the ethics and trust of the entire FBI.
There is always a chance there are shinanigans. But it seems you place trust in highly questionable places and want to dismiss that which has a higher probability of being more accurate/truthful.
Actually, the affidavit is more germane to the question of the search. That is the sworn document that is presented to a judge outlining why they feel a warrant should be issued.
My feeling on the FBI really hasn't changed in a good while, like years. I have felt they have been unchecked for a long time. Add in the outright lies they told about the Russia collusion I find it hard to 'trust' them.
The FBI is a fine organization, but I feel they have gone beyond their mission and have components that seem to acting like the CIA inside our borders. I am not summarily going to dismiss any finding, but they clearly need to be scrutinized.
I also don't know who I may have dismissed concerning 1-6. I never really paid all that much attention to the matter.
As always we have to shift through the media spin and sensationalism. But factually I believe Trump has been widely reported as having been negligent with government documents. Personal bias leads to to have more faith in the idea that somehow Trump had Nuclear confidential documents that he shouldn't have. As Dawglover wrote above, the law is black and white.
Trump calls for ‘immediate release’ of Mar-a-Lago search warrant, says lawyers won’t oppose DOJ move
Former President Trump late Thursday called for the release of the warrant allowing the FBI to search his Mar-a-Lago home earlier this week.
“Release the Documents Now!” he wrote on his social media platform Truth Social.
Trump’s comments came hours after Attorney General Merrick Garland said that the Justice Department had moved to unseal the warrant.
The former president’s Mar-a-Lago residence was searched by the FBI on Monday, possibly to find classified information that the former president had illegally brought home after the end of his time in office.
Trump said he was “encouraging” the immediate release of documents related to the FBI search of his home, adding that he wanted the public to see the warrant despite its being written by “radical left Democrats.”
“Not only will I not oppose the release of documents related to the unAmerican, unwarranted, and unnecessary raid and break-in of my home in Palm Beach, Florida, Mar-a-Lago, I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents,” he wrote.
“Even though they have been drawn up by radical left Democrats and possible future political opponents, who have a strong and powerful vested interest in attacking me, much as they have done for the last 6 years,” the former president added.
Shortly after Garland’s announcement on Thursday, a judge set a 3 p.m. deadline for Trump and his lawyers to oppose the move to unseal the warrant.
The Justice Department has not yet shared information explaining the reasoning behind the search, and many in addition to Trump are calling for the release of the search warrant to the public.
Garland said that he signed off on the move but did not provide further information on the reasoning behind the raid.
“Federal law, long-standing department rules and our ethical obligations prevent me from providing further details as to the basis of the search at this time,” Garland said.
The search took place following a summer of public hearings arranged by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol.
“This unprecedented political weaponization of law enforcement is inappropriate and highly unethical,” Trump wrote in his post calling for the release of documents related to the Mar-a-Lago search.
Earlier this year, the Justice Department investigated the former president upon request from the National Archives after classified materials were found at his Mar-a-Lago residence.
Trump’s ignoring legitimate legal recourse — that speaks volumes
Former President Donald Trump has characteristically growled, yapped and roared against the FBI’s execution of a warrant issued by an independent federal judge authorizing a particularized search for evidence of crimes in his Mar-a-Logo residence — potentially destruction of presidential records or unauthorized sharing of classified information. Trump’s appointee, FBI Director Christopher Wray, who was confirmed by a 92-5 Senate majority with only Democrats in opposition, supervised the search.
Actions speak louder than words. Trump has scampered away from available immediate legal challenges to the FBI search — a tacit concession that his semi-hysterical histrionics are sound and fury signifying nothing.
Rule 41 (g) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure authorizes Trump to file suit demanding a return of all materials seized by the FBI at Mar-a-Lago by proof that the search warrant or its execution was legally defective. The text is clear to persons unschooled in the law: “A person aggrieved by an unlawful search and seizure of property or by the deprivation of property may move for the property’s return…The court must receive evidence on any factual issue necessary to decide the motion. If it grants the motion, the court must return the property to the movant.” None among the former president’s long roster of lawyers has questioned the legality of the search under Rule 41 (g).
A valid search warrant requires the issuing judge to be neutral, and that probable cause exists to believe that evidence of a crime will be discovered in the places to be searched. Fishing expeditions or raids are unconstitutional. The Fourth Amendment requires warrants to “particularly [describe] the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.”
Furthermore, under Criminal Rule 41 (f), the FBI must prepare an inventory of the property seized and the “officer executing the warrant must give a copy of the warrant and a receipt of the property taken to the person from whom, or from whose premises the property was taken.” On Thursday via social media, Trump requested the release of documents related to his search warrant — after Attorney General Merrick Garland announced the Justice Department had petitioned courts to unseal the documents.
Additionally, under the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Bivens v. Six Unknown Agents (1971), Trump could sue FBI agents for damages for violation of his Fourth Amendment rights either in executing the search warrant or intentionally lying to establish probable cause.
It speaks volumes that Trump has balked at seeking an adjudication of the legality of the Mar-a-Lago search either under Rule 41 or in a Fourth Amendment damages suit. Maybe he learned something from losing more than 60 lawsuits challenging the 2020 presidential elections.
Contrary to uninformed caterwauling by Trump and his echo chambers, he has been treated with kid gloves compared with President Richard Nixon.
In February 1974, Nixon was named by a federal grand jury as an unindicted co-conspirator in the cover-up of the Watergate burglary. Subpoenas were issued for presidential tapes, including for a critical, allegedly incriminating, conversation on June 20, 1974. But the tape contained an 18 and a-half-minute gap, which chief of staff Alexander Haig attributed to an anonymous “sinister force.”
Considering this history, it would have been prosecutorial malpractice to have issued a subpoena for Trump’s boxes of presidential papers in lieu of a search warrant — especially because of Trump’s notoriety for flushing presidential documents down the toilet.
After resigning, Nixon remained vulnerable to prosecution until President Gerald Ford’s pardon on Sept. 8, 1974. But that did not end Nixon’s Watergate travails. In 1975, Nixon testified under oath for 11 hours before a federal grand jury, questioned by the special Watergate prosecution force.
Trump’s signature fact-free and law-free defenses — witch hunts and a Democratic Gestapo — was recently rejected by a 3-0 panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in Committee on Ways and Means v. Trump. The court sustained the constitutionality of the committee’s statutory right of access to Trump’s tax returns.
Even if Trump’s treatment has been unique, so has been his frontal assault on the Constitution. He proclaimed in the manner of Napoleon’s self-coronation, “Then I have Article II, where I have the right to do anything I want as president.” With that said, Trump routinely flouted the law. According to his national security advisor John Bolton, “The pattern [of Mr. Trump’s actions] looked like obstruction of justice as a way of life.” Like the Supreme Court’s conclusion in Nixon v Administrator of General Services, sustaining the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act expressly targeting former President Nixon, Trump constitutes a “legitimate class of one.”
America fought a revolution to make the rule of law king, not to make a king the ruler of law. Trump is orchestrating a counterrevolution against that hallowed success. As Benjamin Franklin noted at the conclusion of the constitutional convention, the delegates gave us a Republic, but it is up to us to keep it.
Bruce Fein was associate deputy attorney general under President Reagan and is the author of “Constitutional Peril: The Life and Death Struggle for Our Constitution and Democracy.”
FBI agents found dozens of classified documents in Mar-a-Lago search: sources
(NewsNation) — FBI agents found dozens of classified documents during their search of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago on Monday, sources confirmed to NewsNation.
Investigators discovered classified documents in two areas: Trump’s personal office above a ballroom and in a storage room near the pool. Sources say there were “boxes everywhere,” with some containing Top Secret Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI). Those are considered some of the highest level of classified documents.
Since the documents are so secretive, it’s unknown whether investigators will ever publicly acknowledge what they’re in reference to, let alone release them.
Classified nuclear weapons documents may have been among the items the FBI found, according to a source cited by the Washington Post.
Attorney General Merrick Garland spoke publicly for the first time Thursday about the FBI search of Trump’s home, and although he did not reveal what the FBI was looking for, he did say he approved the search.
Garland said he would be asking a court to unseal the search warrant. Trump said Thursday night he doesn’t oppose its release and encouraged it to be unsealed immediately.
The judge has set a deadline of 3 p.m. Friday for Trump’s legal team to decide if they are going to object to the release of the warrant.
Questions have been circulating about exactly what it was the FBI was looking for and why they would engage in the unprecedented search of a former president’s home. According to the Washington Post, it may have been because federal authorities worried sensitive nuclear documents possibly in Trump’s possession could fall into the wrong hands.
The New York Times then reported Thursday night that the search was focused around material relating to “some of the most highly classified programs run by the United States,” according to an anonymous source cited by that publication.
Attorney General Merrick Garland listens to a question as he leaves the podium after speaking at the Justice Department. (Credit: AP) The Washington Post’s source, which was anonymous, did not say whether or not any nuclear weapons documents were found in the home.
Sources confirmed to NewsNation that the execution of the search warrant is linked to an investigation into whether or not the former president mishandled presidential records related to the discovery of boxes full of White House records that were taken to Mar-a-Lago after Trump left office.
Trump lawyer Christina Bobb said on NewsNation’s “On Balance: With Leland Vittert” on Thursday that they were surprised by the FBI raid on Trump’s home, having believed to that point they had cooperated amply with federal investigators.
Bobb said Trump handed over everything investigators had asked for prior to the search. Federal authorities indicated otherwise with the search.
Neither the Department of Justice nor Trump’s legal team have made the search warrant or search receipt public yet.
Former President Donald Trump arrives at Trump Tower, late Tuesday, Aug. 9, 2022, in New York. (AP Photo/Yuki Iwamura) Bobb said the Trump legal team would be open to making the documents public, but needed to confer with the Justice Department first.
“We’re waiting to hear back from them,” Bobb told NewsNation. “We’re very eager. We know that people want information, and we’re eager to respond as best as possible in coordination with the Department of Justice so we’re just waiting to hear back from them.”
Trump called the search of his estate a “surprise attack” and alleged it was a “targeted raid.”
“In early June, the DOJ and FBI asked my legal representatives to put an extra lock on the door leading to the place where boxes were stored in Mar-a-Lago — We agreed. They were shown the secured area, and the boxes themselves. Then on Monday, without notification or warning, an army of agents broke into Mar-a-Lago, went to the same storage area, and ripped open the lock that they had asked to be installed. A surprise attack,” Trump said on the social media platform Truth Social.
Trump Demands the DOJ Release the FBI Search Warrant… That He’s Had All Week
Trump could have released the FBI search warrant days ago.
Donald Trump repeatedly declared on Truth Social on Thursday night that he wants to “release the documents” related to the FBI search of his Mar-a-Lago home earlier this week.
“Not only will I not oppose the release of documents related to the unAmerican, unwarranted, and unnecessary raid…I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents,” Trump said in a late-night post on his own social media platform.
What Trump didn’t post on Truth Social was that he actually has the documents themselves—and has been free to publish them since the FBI first knocked on the door of his Florida residence on Monday morning.
“They have to leave a copy of the search warrant as well as the inventory of what they took at the location where they took it. It’s up to [Trump’s team] whether they want to show the rest of the world what that says,” David Weinstein, a former federal prosecutor in the Southern District of Florida, told VICE News.
Trump’s posts came hours after the Department of Justice moved to unseal the search warrant and other documents related to the FBI search. The news was announced at a brief press conference held by Attorney General Merrick Garland on Thursday, the first public comment by the DOJ since the unprecedented search of an ex-president’s home.
The DOJ filed the motion to unseal with a court in South Florida. Judge Bruce Reinhart, who signed the original warrant, received violent death threats as a result. Reinhart gave the Justice Department until 3 p.m. Friday to tell him if Trump’s team agreed to the unsealing of the search-related documents.
CBS reported Thursday that Trump’s legal team has been weighing whether to release the documents they have, according to Florida-based Trump attorney Lindsey Halligan.
Halligan said their team has videos and photos of the search from Mar-a-Lago’s private security cameras, which CBS reports the FBI asked to be turned off. Trump’s legal team reportedly refused. Trump’s legal team is considering releasing the footage, Halligan said.
Halligan also told CBS that the FBI had given them a “bare-bones” search warrant that does not include the underlying reasons why the search was conducted. She added that the log of items taken from Mar-a-Lago was also “vague.”
Of course, Trump’s legal team might not really want the search warrant and accompanying documents released, given the potentially damaging nature of the items being sought in the search—which the Washington Post reported Thursday were “nuclear documents,” among other items.
Trump addressed the Washington Post’s report in another Truth Social post early Friday morning, calling it a “hoax,” before going on to once again boost the baseless conspiracy theory that the FBI planted evidence at his home.
The search of Mar-a-Lago has sparked a vicious backlash among Trump’s supporters, including many high-profile Republican Party leaders and members of the right-wing media, as well as the far-right. They have led and boosted calls for civil war, while extremists online have violently threatened and doxed Reinhart and his family.
On Thursday, a Trump supporter attacked an FBI office in Cincinnati with a nail gun and an AR-15-style rifle, claiming on social media that he had been inspired to take action as a result of the search of Trump’s home.
Like Trump, the attacker was also an avid user of Truth Social, and in the middle of the attack, while being sought by law enforcement, he updated his Truth Social status one last time.
“If you don’t hear from me, it is true I tried attacking the F.B.I. and it’ll mean either I was taken off the internet, the F.B.I. got me, or they sent the regular cops,” he wrote, hours before an armed standoff with police ended in the 42-year-old being shot and killed.
I just typed the following post but decided to hold it and finish it later...
Quote
Just a hunch..but I believe Trump might have down graded Highly Classified documents to get them out of the White House/DC then refused to give the documents back when the National Archives realized the documents were missing. He will likely claim that he was entitled to those documents or that 'he just made a mistake' and that down-grading the classification was just an error.
Then the story below came across the news wire...
Trump allies say he declassified Mar-a-Lago documents. Experts say it's unclear whether that will hold up.
You know Peen, if the circumstances were different I would give some degree of credence to why you feel as you do. But the process used seems to make your scenario unlikely. The warrant was requested by the FBI. That much certainly seems to be a fact. But the FBI didn't take that request to a judge. Instead it went up the chain of command and was looked at and approved all the way up the ladder even to Garland. It wasn't as if the FBI made up some unfounded claim and it was rubber stamped. Then after all of that, a judge who read the warrant approved it based on what was in the request. The judge too knew the ramifications of honoring their request. And we are all seeing that play out in real time. There's no way that I believe a rational thinking person can strongly consider this as some fabricated process. This was a very thorough process.
There's nobody in the FBI or the DOJ that didn't understand the backlash this would cause. They all knew of the scrutiny that would be involved. That's why it would be virtually impossible for me to believe this was some off the cuff fabrication. According to reports, it was someone on the inside of the trump circle who blew the whistle on this. He had obviously been fighting a subpoena of these documents for some time. We know what would happen if we did something like that. Why should he be any different?
Lets just see what was taken. In the end, he can declassify them the moment he takes them. He doesn't need to make a proclamation of such as far as I know.
Now, what exactly is called nuclear, top secret items is yet to be determined. Lot's of thing listed as classified info aren't exactly earth shattering information....
Here is another sticking point. If the information is classified info, we won't find out what it was. It could be nothing, it could be something. Either way people will say it can't be discussed. Maybe it would be a big shadow over the man, or maybe a shadow with little consequence that some people hope won't go away.
Lets just see what was taken In the end, he can declassify them the moment he takes them. He doesn't need to make a proclamation of such as far as I know.
Lets just see what was taken. In the end, he can declassify them the moment he takes them. He doesn't need to make a proclamation of such as far as I know.
Of course, if Biden re-classified it -- then it would again be classified. I'm not sure the "I said the magic declassification words quietly, and so nobody else knew it was declassified" is going to be a very strong defense in court.
Since there was apparently a months-long back and forth about this - I would guess the Biden administration would have had ample time to formally re-classify things.
Lets just see what was taken In the end, he can declassify them the moment he takes them. He doesn't need to make a proclamation of such as far as I know.
.
Inadvertent could be a key word. It could be argued he had deliberate intent. I also think the context used doesn't pertain. My question is what procedures need to be followed? If there a form that needs to be filed? I don't know of any, but more on point, I don't know.
I know the author is a law professor. I wish he expounded a bit more.
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And the shifty-lifty-lefties? Hillary "inadvertently" left a few on the toilet seat while she was bleaching the bathroom...
"Clinton's server was found to hold over 100 emails containing classified information, including 65 emails deemed "Secret" and 22 deemed "Top Secret". An additional 2,093 emails not marked classified were retroactively designated confidential by the State Department."
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And the shifty-lifty-lefties? Hillary "inadvertently" left a few on the toilet seat while she was bleaching the bathroom...
"Clinton's server was found to hold over 100 emails containing classified information, including 65 emails deemed "Secret" and 22 deemed "Top Secret". An additional 2,093 emails not marked classified were retroactively designated confidential by the State Department."
since yall constantly diverting to "what about hillary", when will trump sit in front of a committee on live TV answering questions for hours like Hillary did?
fate, you still haven't acknowledge that trump is a victim of his own policy making in 2018, the fbi director who executed the warrent appointed by him, and the judge who signed off on the warrant appointed by him.
but let me guess, none of that matters "cuz hillary"
fate, can you make a comment on this without bringing up hillary?
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And you totally missed my point. Take the time to read what I said and to what I was making my reply rather than read one word and think you know what you are talking about.
1. the practice of spying or of using spies, typically by governments to obtain political and military information: "the camouflage and secrecy of espionage"
Now to apply the information above to the present situation as it pertains to present situation dealing with Trump...
Not Even the President Can Declassify Nuclear Secrets
Fan letters and snapshots are one matter, and launch codes are another—and here the details of classification might decide just how much trouble Trump is in.
By Graeme Wood
The executive branch’s system of classification is among the weirdest aspects of the American government, and sometimes it seems as if those best equipped to understand it are people with a background in obscure religious practices—say, Roman Catholic sacramental theology—rather than journalists or lawyers. Certain officials are consecrated as having “original classification authority” (they can baptize documents as classified without reference to previous classification); some are ordained to classify but derive their authority from others. You can be defrocked for various reasons. But the authority to classify and declassify flows from one person with near-absolute power, and for four years that papal figure was Donald J. Trump. This awesome former power will protect him from prosecution, but only so much.
Attorney General Merrick Garland revealed yesterday that the FBI’s search of Mar-a-Lago concerned the existence of classified material at Trump’s Florida golf resort. And The Washington Post reported that the material included “documents relating to nuclear weapons,” which would seem to surpass in gravity the pilfering of presidential memorabilia that many speculated was the reason for the raid. If Trump took away a postcard from Kim Jong Un, well, tsk-tsk. Political prudence might dictate that Garland not prosecute the case.
Moreover, so much material is classified that one should expect a slipup here and there. For decades, the crusade against overclassification has been a cause mostly of the left, in part on the grounds that so much is secret that no one, let alone Trump, could be expected to abide by all classification rules. Secrets are not rare. By some measures there might be more information that is classified by the U.S. government than is unclassified, in any library, anywhere. In 2004, the physicist Peter Galison tallied the amount of classified material produced every year and found that “about five times as many pages are being added to the classified universe than are being brought to the storehouses of human learning, including all the books and journals on any subject in any language collected in the largest repositories on the planet.” The government certainly has more classified data than exists unclassified in the entire Library of Congress. Mistakes will be made, especially by officials who are flagrantly heedless of basic procedure.
But fan letters and snapshots are one matter, and launch codes are another—and here the details of classification might decide just how much trouble Trump is in. First, let’s focus on the absolute portion of near-absolute power. The 1988 Supreme Court case Navy v. Egan confirmed that classification authority flows from the president except in specific instances separated from his powers by law. And here is where things get theological: A president can make most documents classified or declassified simply by willing them so. This peculiar power is so great that the government has an office that exists solely to manage it: the Information Security Oversight Office, which has a strong claim to being the coolest government office you’ve never heard of. (The longest-serving director of this office, Steven Garfinkel, told me that for two decades he had access to pretty much every secret in the executive branch. “If there was a version of the game show Jeopardy entirely about the federal government,” he deadpanned to me once, “I would be in the Tournament of Champions every single year.” Garfinkel retired to teach high school in 2002 and died in 2018.)
His successor, J. William Leonard, led the office under George W. Bush, and he confirmed the lack of general limitation of his boss’s power. While a president is president, Leonard told me, “the rules and procedures governing the classification and declassification of information apply to everyone else.” And that means Trump could have declassified whatever he wished (again, with specific limitations soon to be discussed) before carting it off to Mar-a-Lago. He would not have had to file paperwork—just “utter the magic words,” Leonard told me. He could have waved his hand over the U-Haul trailer as it headed out the White House driveway and down I-95 toward Florida, and there would have been no classified material in there to mishandle.
Leonard noted important caveats, however. First, Trump’s power to declassify ended with his presidency. Second, that U-Haul could be reclassified by someone else. (Depending on traffic and the sharpness of the Biden administration, I would imagine it could have been reclassified somewhere around Fredericksburg, Virginia.) And third, there are certain materials that presidents cannot classify and declassify at will. One such category of material is the identity of spies.
Another is nuclear secrets. The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess. Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system.
If Trump was keeping nuclear secrets in the storeroom of his country club, without even the benefit of a padlock, and resisted attempts to secure those secrets against infiltrators and spies, a prosecutor might reasonably take more interest. After all, he’s the ex-president, not the pope.
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And the shifty-lifty-lefties? Hillary "inadvertently" left a few on the toilet seat while she was bleaching the bathroom...
"Clinton's server was found to hold over 100 emails containing classified information, including 65 emails deemed "Secret" and 22 deemed "Top Secret". An additional 2,093 emails not marked classified were retroactively designated confidential by the State Department."
since yall constantly diverting to "what about hillary", when will trump sit in front of a committee on live TV answering questions for hours like Hillary did?
fate, you still haven't acknowledge that trump is a victim of his own policy making in 2018, the fbi director who executed the warrent appointed by him, and the judge who signed off on the warrant appointed by him.
but let me guess, none of that matters "cuz hillary"
fate, can you make a comment on this without bringing up hillary?
I could make a bunch of comments on this without bringing up $hillary, made one before that. I was just responding to another of Spiral's "pfft" comments. Everything he (if "he" is not a bot, I'm not sure) posts deserves the same sad, ironic response. Just entertainment to me lol.
Did you read my other post?
I'm trying to figure out why "National Archives" would have anything to do with nuclear documents... or know they were "missing". They've been pilfered by their own members, directors, Clinton's national security advisor, everyone down to a flippin' portrait painter. Seems like putting them in charge of nuclear documents would be like handing over your banking to Helen Keller and her dyslexic cousin.
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And the shifty-lifty-lefties? Hillary "inadvertently" left a few on the toilet seat while she was bleaching the bathroom...
"Clinton's server was found to hold over 100 emails containing classified information, including 65 emails deemed "Secret" and 22 deemed "Top Secret". An additional 2,093 emails not marked classified were retroactively designated confidential by the State Department."
I’m not disagreeing with you on the Hillary thing, but I just wanted to point out the red herring. “Classified” and “confidential” are two VERY different things.
I doubt Trump ever is held accountable within the legal system. He is a snake. He is teflon. He is like a crime boss that lets others do his dirty work and take the fall.
If anything this is just one more example of why the man is unfit for office and demonstrates just one more appalling aspect of the worst POTUS ever.
His hard core fanatical fan base will love and support him no matter what. They will ignore any and all facts they don't like. They will invent wild conspiracy theories rather than accept what is so obvious, verifiable. They will excuse behavior and actions from Trump that would send them into a melt down if Obama, Biden, Hilary or any Dem ever did the same. Any of the many, many, many close associates of Trump and his inner circle that come out to reconfirm what a narcist Trump is and how his only interest is himself and his $$$ - will be roundly condemned and called a RINO no matter their pedigree and history as a true conservative.
Inadvertent? Lol. Inadvertently flushed down the toilet? You rightly tighties crack me up.
And the shifty-lifty-lefties? Hillary "inadvertently" left a few on the toilet seat while she was bleaching the bathroom...
"Clinton's server was found to hold over 100 emails containing classified information, including 65 emails deemed "Secret" and 22 deemed "Top Secret". An additional 2,093 emails not marked classified were retroactively designated confidential by the State Department."
I’m not disagreeing with you on the Hillary thing, but I just wanted to point out the red herring. “Classified” and “confidential” are two VERY different things.
The difference that nobody on the right wants to discuss is that Hillary faced a very unfriendly congressional hearing for 11 hours and didn't plea the 5th once.. NOT ONCE.. She answered every question asked of her.. she didn't dodge anything. She stood up tall.. In the end, she didn't and won't spend a day in jail...Basically, they found nothing to hang on her.
Republicans be like….I’m not a fan of Donald Trump, but it’s chilling to realize this can happen to anyone of us after live tweeting 34 consecutive crimes.
let's not start on Biden. it seems like he's got some shady stuff going on too
And now we've been seeing the same thing in Pure football. It's a sign of the times.
Originally Posted by mgh888
His hard core fanatical fan base will love and support him no matter what. They will ignore any and all facts they don't like. They will invent wild conspiracy theories rather than accept what is so obvious, verifiable.
When the first guy out the gate goes after the FBI field office and dies in a standoff shootout after only getting off a few nails at the window of the guardhouse... those grand plans tend to cool quickly. All that gravy militia BS doesn't hold up to REAL good guys with guns IRL. I wonder if the Cincy dude died crying for his mama?
Knowing about SCIF's, you're well read or have government/military background. I KNOW this, as a retired military officer- I'd be in jail if I had what Trump had at his home. Just another example of him thinking he's above the law. Damn, I hope they put him in the slammer...and I voted Republican my whole life until him. He's a complete dirtbag.
The first part, yes. As far as his ex-wife’s casket… look, I’d put nothing past the creep. He has no morals or scruples. I wouldn’t doubt he buried secrets with her.
The first part, yes. As far as his ex-wife’s casket… look, I’d put nothing past the creep. He has no morals or scruples. I wouldn’t doubt he buried secrets with her.
Business Insider Ex-official who investigated Hillary Clinton's emails said the documents recovered by the FBI at Trump's Mar-a-Lago were particularly 'stunning' and 'egregious'
Hannah Getahun Sun, August 14, 2022, 2:30 AM·2 min read
A former DOJ official who oversaw Hillary Clinton's emails said documents retrieved at Mar-a-Lago were "egregious."
FBI agents found Trump with 11 sets of highly sensitive government information.
One set of documents contained Sensitive Compartmented Information.
A former Justice Department official who oversaw the investigation of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's emails said the sensitivity of the documents that the FBI retrieved from Mar-a-Lago was "particularly stunning and particularly egregious."
On Monday, the FBI searched former President Donald Trump's Palm Beach, Florida, home and seized 11 sets of classified documents from the former president. Trump is being investigated by the DOJ over whether or not he violated three federal laws, including the Espionage Act.
According to a search warrant released by the Department of Justice, one of these sets of Top Secret information was designated as Sensitive Compartmented Information, which is the highest level of sensitivity a classified document can receive.
"The fact that he had SCI material out in the wild, so to speak, at risk is particularly stunning and particularly egregious," David Laufman, the former chief of the Department of Justice's counterintelligence division, told anchor Erin Burnett on CNN.
The release of Top Secret information can cause "exceptionally grave damage" to national security, according to Executive Order 13526.
One of Trump's many defenses following the search was that the documents found in his home had been declassified, but there is little evidence this is the case.
Laufman told CNN that Trump had a "consistent flagrant disregard for the protection of classified information and disregard for the Intelligence Committee throughout his presidency" and was not surprised the former President was holding on to Top Secret government papers.
"Having said that, it is nonetheless shocking to me having overseen prosecutions of multiple defendants under provisions of Espionage Act, to see that same statute leveled as a foundation for a search warrant executed on the home of a former president of the United States," Laufman said.
Laufman also said the discovery of the documents during the FBI's search "completely validates the government's investigation" into the former President.
"Whether this investigation transforms into an outright criminal prosecution remains to be seen," Laufman said.
Enablement, deflection, the normalization of breaking laws, excuses .... it's about what I expect from Trump fan. Would have expected more from you - and while I get that anything in the media should be examined for exaggeration and agenda, the automatic gainsay of any investigation into Trump and his actions is awfully old. Hilary faced investigation. She faced Congress under oath. She didn't deflect or hide ... all we get from Trump is deflection, no accountability, nothing under oath. smh.
She also voluntarily turned over her server. Not even a subpoena was needed for her to do so. Trump on the other hand was issued a subpoena over these documents in the spring and at the time the warrant was issued still had not complied with the subpoena. But you know how Republicans have been dealing with subpoena's lately. They act like they don't count or aren't to be honored. Like the law doesn't count. I find it rather surprising that Peen thinks that trump refusing to turn over these documents months after them being subpoenaed doesn't constitute the right of law enforcement to seize these documents. Murica!
And guess what I’m not going anywhere because this isn’t a a radical liberal Nazi forum. This is exactly what the main stream media does anytime someone comes in with the truth or an opinion that differs from theirs they try to talk over them and shoot it down before they can even get the words out of her mouth. Pathetic children.
Hey, bro- where'd ya go?
"He's a real Nowhere Man, 'cause his st00pid azz got banned..."
Enablement, deflection, the normalization of breaking laws, excuses .... it's about what I expect from Trump fan. Would have expected more from you - and while I get that anything in the media should be examined for exaggeration and agenda, the automatic gainsay of any investigation into Trump and his actions is awfully old. Hilary faced investigation. She faced Congress under oath. She didn't deflect or hide ... all we get from Trump is deflection, no accountability, nothing under oath. smh.
I am not deflecting. I asked a legit question, and I am not as big a fan of the Ex as much as you think. I maintain my position, I question the charges because of all the BS charges levied in the past. Sorry, I have lost a great deal of trust in factions with-in the FBI and Democrat party. If the DOJ has something, this is important enough to bring the cards to the table. If it is a strong hand, then it is what it is and the Ex needs to go down. I don't see a fairer way to go about things, so that is what you can expect from me.
If this simply drags on to the next presidential cycle, then it is BS and in it's own way an attempt at election rigging.
I trust that explains my position.
Again, it you forgot the questions I posed:
If they are so sensitive, how did this dude even know what was in them?
Wouldn't the sharing of or leaking of such information be a crime?
That is the problem, anything can be said of the documents, then be held classified info that can't be revealed other than say it was egregious.
I am not saying the alleged documents aren't sensitive or egregious. I am just not buying that they are because someone at the politically led DOJ says they are. I don't expect to see the documents. I will just wait until people of various political persuasion with clearance levels to review the information agree they are sensitive national secrets and were being held for nefarious means.
I suppose another question needs to be asked. If a local cop can plant evidence in a car, how hard would it be for the FBI to plant a classified document in a box held in their custody?
Mar-a-Lago footage subpoenaed by DoJ sparks speculation Trump may still have some classified document
Video from 60-day period included ‘views from outside the storage room’, according to report
Surveillance video subpoenaed by the Department of Justice has raised concerns that Donald Trump may still have some classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
Investigators from the DOJ subpoenaed video from a 60-day period “including views from outside the storage room”, reported The New York Times.
“According to a person briefed on the matter, the footage showed that, after one instance in which Justice Department officials were in contact with Mr. Trump’s team, boxes were moved in and out of the room,” reported Maggie Haberman and Glenn Thrush for the newspaper.
“That activity prompted concern among investigators about the handling of the material.”
The Times says that it is not clear exactly when the footage was from.
But Trump observers took to Twitter to raise their concerns.
“It sounds like DOJ has reason to be concerned that it *still* may not have recovered all of the classified material taken by Trump,” tweeted former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti.
And Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine-Banks, added: “Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned. Obviously that raises many questions since it was false. If true, FBI couldn’t have left with 21 more boxes in August.”
Bill Kristol, who was Dan Quayle’s chief of staff tweeted, “Whoa. Let me amplify. WHOA.”
“...of course, maybe Trump just had a standing order that the classified/magically de-classified documents be moved around every now and then so they could get some air…”
Mr Trump himself took to Truth Social on Sunday and called for the FBI to return some of the documents taken in last week’s raid.
The former president claimed in the post that some of the documents were protected under attorney-client privilege and should not have been seized in the first place.
Rep. Eric Swalwell says he received a voicemail threatening to 'cut his kids' heads off,' blames GOP for 'stoking violent rhetoric'
***WARNING: The recorded threat is vile in both language and context. It's very lowbrow and full of cuss words. Don't listen if you are easily offended.***
Mar-a-Lago footage subpoenaed by DoJ sparks speculation Trump may still have some classified document
Video from 60-day period included ‘views from outside the storage room’, according to report
Surveillance video subpoenaed by the Department of Justice has raised concerns that Donald Trump may still have some classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
Investigators from the DOJ subpoenaed video from a 60-day period “including views from outside the storage room”, reported The New York Times.
“According to a person briefed on the matter, the footage showed that, after one instance in which Justice Department officials were in contact with Mr. Trump’s team, boxes were moved in and out of the room,” reported Maggie Haberman and Glenn Thrush for the newspaper.
“That activity prompted concern among investigators about the handling of the material.”
The Times says that it is not clear exactly when the footage was from.
But Trump observers took to Twitter to raise their concerns.
“It sounds like DOJ has reason to be concerned that it *still* may not have recovered all of the classified material taken by Trump,” tweeted former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti.
And Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine-Banks, added: “Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned. Obviously that raises many questions since it was false. If true, FBI couldn’t have left with 21 more boxes in August.”
Bill Kristol, who was Dan Quayle’s chief of staff tweeted, “Whoa. Let me amplify. WHOA.”
“...of course, maybe Trump just had a standing order that the classified/magically de-classified documents be moved around every now and then so they could get some air…”
Mr Trump himself took to Truth Social on Sunday and called for the FBI to return some of the documents taken in last week’s raid.
The former president claimed in the post that some of the documents were protected under attorney-client privilege and should not have been seized in the first place.
The FBI is headed by a Republican who was appointed by trump. Do you actually believe this ran up the chain of command without him approving this as well? It's great to have a picture painted in your mind when overlooking the fact that it was the FBI who requested the warrant is ran by a trump appointee. And any rational thinking person would understand that it went up the ranks of the FBI, including Wray before it was ever even seen by the Justice Department.
I see you've climbed all the way down that rabbit hole. You're already laying the groundwork to dispute anything they found. Just like trump told you to do.
"Law and Order" is just a catch phrase that holds no meaning. We actually heard a phone call where trump tried to get Georgia election officials to "find him votes". They don't care. Later in that same phone call he told those same officials that not doing so may be criminal. Ramping up the pressure on them. We saw the transcripts of a phone call pressuring Ukraine to do his bidding before releasing the money congress had approved and he did not have the power to stop. Most would consider that blackmail. They don't care. We now see he refused to turn over documents after he was issued a subpoena to do so. They don't care.
Once again, this entire "Party of law And Order" BS is just that, BS. I mean anyone who can watch what happened on Jan. 6th and the listen to them claim they care about "Blue Lives Matter" or the "Party of Law and Order" must be dumber than a box of rocks.
I didn't suggest that it shouldn't have teeth. I stated that as of now it doesn't and hasn't.
The phone call where he plainly told Georgia election officials he needed to find over 11k votes is on tape. Him telling them they may be committing a crime by not doing so is on tape. Him blackmailing Ukraine in threatening to withhold funds already approved by congress to investigate Hunter Biden after they had already done so is in the phone call manuscripts. Not a peep from republicans about any of it. Let's not pretend.
I would never generalize about large groups like republicans or all trump supporters etc.
I known both and I may disagree but that is expected and typical.
But trump has been attracting a dangerous group of violent outliers. Demonstrating at marches. Attending his rallies. etc.
Jan 6th proved what could happen as militia groups like "proud boys, oath keepers etc. get emboldened. Knuckleheads showing up in front of the FBI office in Arizona with their ar15's.
It is disgusting what has been unleashed since trump took office. Intimidation, threats of violence egged on by fox and other media outlets.
I have absolutely no problem with conservative republicans per se.
However, Jan 6th was the worst thing I have seen in my time. It amazes me that every American would not want accountabliity.
This search for documents is more proof. Claims of planting evidence etc. just absurd. The FBI has video now of the storage areas. It could be very revealing how clsssified government material has been handled.
I will be patient and wait for everything to come out of this along with the hearings.
I am afraid that this country has been ripped apart. Violence has become normalized. Rage is accepted behavior. The DOJ and all branches of Law and Order will be tested to the max. It is my hope that it ends as trump fades. However, I fear pandora's box has been opened and can not be closed.
If you can explain to me which Republicans it was that called out him trying to blackmail Ukraine or trying to get Georgia election officials to rig the election I will happily agree with you.
You see I don't actually label them as all the same. I'm sure the vast majority of them would never storm the capital. I'm quite sure most of them would have never tried to have blackmailed Georgia election officials or Ukraine. So they're definitely not all the same. But when it comes to stepping up to the plate and calling trump out for such behavior they're pretty much all the same. It's not all inclusive as it pertains to those unforgivable actions. It's a level of degree.
Armed Trump supporters protest outside of FBI office in Phoenix following Mar-a-Lago probe
PHOENIX - Signs reading "Honor your oath" and "Abolish FBI" were seen outside the FBI office in Phoenix on Aug. 13, just days after news broke that the agency searched former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago home in Florida.
Several of those who were there were armed with guns.
But trump has been attracting a dangerous group of violent outliers. Demonstrating at marches. Attending his rallies. etc.
um...
(Antifa/BLM) protestors were violently destroying many cities for nearly 6 months.
both extreme sides are developing some bad habits that are not good for our country.
NOPE! That's a false equivalent. Black people marching because they are being killed disproportionately by those who are supposed to protect us is not the same as a bunch of dumbasses attacking the capitol building to overthrow the duly elected government. The riots were bad and did a lot of damage, but no left winger killed anyone. Rittenhouse killed some people, a right-winger. Most if not all of the riots were incited by right-wingers too, proven after the fact in several cases. And I'm not picking on you, but this is a BS response that dismisses right-wing guilt/responsibility for their actions. Also, the left said right away, lock up the looters/rioters that break the law, while the right is still protecting these people and the traitor-in-chief.
I know we ALL exaggerate but BLM/Antifa violently destroying cities.....REALLY, name the cities, how large were the lefts terrorist groups/ your words- not mine. Antifa stands for anti fascist....DUH, which American isn't for that...AND there is NO central group of Antifa. BLM, they mostly are peaceful- but some violence has occurred....Proud Boys and Oath Keepers- those are organized, right wing, armed, violent groups. The two opposite sides are not anywhere close to being equal= far more nuts on Republican/right side of political spectrum. It doesn't help Republicans when you have a nut as President who supports white supremacy groups.
Please, Justice Department, jail Trump so we can move on.
Ditto, a 1000%. Add on, the white supremists who are upset about moving Confederate statues....and cause violence because they don't want the statues moved- their state history, etc. If they were black and saw statues every day in prominent place celebrating the Civil War, how can it be helpful. Virginia has BLACK citizens and they shouldn't have to see those statues very day for next thousand years. Don't destroy them, but move them to less conspicuous places. Wonder if Stone Mountain in Georgia will ever be resurfaced- JMHO, it should be. That mountain doesn't represent a large section of the Georgia population.
(Antifa/BLM) protestors were violently destroying many cities for nearly 6 months.
I think there may be a huge difference between BLM/Antifa protestors and people who came after dark to loot and riot. And factually well over 90% of these protests across the country were peaceful. That does not in any way excuse the behavior that went on there.
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both extreme sides are developing some bad habits that are not good for our country.
I agree. the stark difference is an easy one to see however. One political party fans the flames of such violence with their rhetoric. Seemingly with acceptance, deflection for their actions and "love" for those committing the violence. So please do let me know when and if you can see a difference here.......
Then there was the "good people on both sides" after some racist purposefully hit a group of counter protestors with his car killing one of them. You're a pretty smart guy and i know you can see the difference here.
I think there must have been some conspiracy involved as for the reason Cheech & Chong mentioned the reds without a word about the greens. DEFUND CHEECH AND CHONG!
(Antifa/BLM) protestors were violently destroying many cities for nearly 6 months.
I think there may be a huge difference between BLM/Antifa protestors and people who came after dark to loot and riot. And factually well over 90% of these protests across the country were peaceful. That does not in any way excuse the behavior that went on there.
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both extreme sides are developing some bad habits that are not good for our country.
I agree. the stark difference is an easy one to see however. One political party fans the flames of such violence with their rhetoric. Seemingly with acceptance, deflection for their actions and "love" for those committing the violence. So please do let me know when and if you can see a difference here.......
Then there was the "good people on both sides" after some racist purposefully hit a group of counter protestors with his car killing one of them. You're a pretty smart guy and i know you can see the difference here.
Not sure who you are quoting here but but whoever had it right, EXTREMES on either side are destroying America. Those in Congress that are pushing it need to be ousted.
Interesting Trump development....according to "Raw News"- probably fake news??? They report Trump is having trouble getting lawyers to help him with his defense- why he was OK having departmental classified intelligence in his home. They stated he's got D graded lawyers willing to help. No wonder the article continues- he stiffs lawyers, he throws them under the bus, he doesn't take advise, etc, etc, etc. Damn, I want to work for him......and he was elected to the Presidency.....WOW.
If they were black and saw statues every day in prominent place celebrating the Civil War, how can it be helpful.
It can't. And it isn't. Because it wasn't/isn't meant to be "helpful."
Anyone who's interested should read about the peak times that these statues were erected. Sword-wielding confederate generals on rearing steeds were planted in town squares to send a clear message to a very specific segment of America's population.
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Virginia has BLACK citizens and they shouldn't have to see those statues very day for next thousand years.
See my statement above. Follow the link. These dots aren't hard to connect.
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Don't destroy them, but move them to less conspicuous places.
As I said in a post when these stories were still current news, these statues are artifacts of an earlier time.
We already have public places that are dedicated to preserving and displaying artifacts from times gone-by. They are called: museums. Places that people voluntarily attend. A place set aside for those who wish to examine artifacts of the past. At present, these monuments have been removed, and have been placed in storage. I think some rich racist land owner would be well-served to construct a garden park on his own private land as a place to display these monuments. (S)he could even charge admission. If I saw a story like that pop up at some point in this forum, I'd say: "Go on, with your bad self." I would not be offended or put-out in any way. 1A, free enterprise, private land... ticks off all the boxes. No problem for me at all. I can choose someplace else as my vacation destination. But if I have a concert to play in a town that forces me to drive past one of those- things in its town square, then yeah- that's a personal problem for me, Clemdawg:AmericanCitizen.
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Wonder if Stone Mountain in Georgia will ever be resurfaced- JMHO, it should be.
Ask the Lakota Sioux what they think of the defacing of The Six Grandfathers. The US government green-lighted the desecration these peoples' equivalent of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, my fellow Christians.
On land they stole, as defined by their own laws that they got to write.
______________
I'm writing my response to you not only because your thoughts added to the conversation, but also because it gives me a chance to add my thoughts about a broader issue: how we teach American History to our youngest citizens. Thousands of people visit Mt. Rushlimbaugh each year, without knowing how it came to be, or why it was placed where it was. It's not like the West is bereft of mountains to carve up, you know?
Millions drove past those monuments in town squares every day without understanding the significance of their prominent placements, or the message they were meant to send. These are just two examples of America's History that weren't taught to me when I was in public school. I suspect that they weren't taught to most US kids by the time they graduated high school, because mine was the stereotypical public education. History class: as good as our teachers could give us, but woefully incomplete and inadequate (one exception: Wayne Brown/Grade 10 History teacher/swim team coach/-ex hippie, who prompted us to 'go to the dusty stacks of the library to learn who America really is').
My family reunions were a yearly history lesson when I was growing up. I heard some of the same stories every year... but sometimes, I'd hear also hear stories that weren't told quite so often. Not all my forebears were the upright citizens that my Momz & Pops were. And those stories were as important as the oft-told ones, because they were true, real... and a part of the fam history we need to own. Case in point: My Dad became the kind of man he was because as a young kid, he realized that his best role models came from his mothers' side of the union that produced him. My gramps was a worthless, shallow, self-centered p.o.s. Old Roy wasn't the only Lousy Clem, but I digress from my message. The message: In order to be a true Clem, I must take on and carry ALL of what being a Clem means... and that means taking the awful along with the awesome.
Which brings me to the point I've not been talking about, up 'til now: If America is to grow from a fledgling, adolescent society into the adult phase of our evolution, She must fully acknowledge the entirety of who She's been.
If My Family can acknowledge its total oral history on a yearly basis- the good AND the bad- I expect/demand My Country to do the same. It's what adults do. And it's how adults continue to grow. America's Fam should do the same, for Her own damned good.
There is a current movement in many states to continue the tradition of suppressing the teaching of America's total historical truths in an effort to further a particular societal end. Books are being burned/banned. Selective segments of Our Collective American History are being actively suppressed. This movement seeks to continue the teaching of a whitewashed American History that mimics the history books of 1940-1965... the last years that Confederate monument construction flourished, one half-century ago.
This is not coincidental. It is synonymous with the last death-throes of a bygone American time that refuses to die with dignity.
If I must bear the burden of carrying my grandfather's weight as part of my personal family name, America should be required to carry the same weight of the things that She f#d up.
Fake news is usually reserved for FOX.. Brietbart,,, OAN.,, and the like.. Kinda like the fake news that Trump actually won the election which any thinking person can tell you is a flat out lie. Think I"m wrong, well, watch the number of those that are questioned under oath for touting the Trump win.. All are taking the 5th.. They don't want to tell the lie under oath,.,,
Today, Rudy is set to testify under oath in Georgia... Any bets he pleads the 5th about 100 or more times?
Lindsay Graham will have to testify,, ,any bets on how many times he pleads the 5th on anything to do with the "STEAL" that trump and his minions keep talking about.
Assume your Indian- join the real world- all immigrants abused- Irish, Poles, Catholics, Muslims, Africans...on and on. Indians lost land because they were the weaker civilization- that is world history. America- at her best- threats everyone equally better than anywhere else. The world ain't fair.
Trump's Truth Social....what a joke. He says mobsters only ones who take the fifth, then takes it hundreds of times, says the Feds planted evidence and releases names of agents who carried out the raid-why? He wants them punished or intimidated.
The "normal Trumpite" wanted him as president because he was a businessman/ a non-politician. Whoopie, now we know he's a crooked businessman/ cooked his books over and over....and he's never been Presidential- he's a complete con man....contras...you got what you wanted. Hope American survives.
Lastly, Liz Cheney for President- her concession speech was perfect- watch it please- she may be a RINO in Trumpites eyes, but a true patriot. Jail Trump.
I know many won't bother to take 25 minutes, but you should watch this. All of it. I think many points are brought up that all of us should at least think about and consider. It's pretty compelling stuff that should at minimum get you thinking, and this isn't a diatribe against the President. For me it is more about the state of affairs. I don't know how factual all the information might or might not be, but I do know the general thrust of his commentary is spot on mark.
We are living in some interesting times, and times that could have drastic implications on our future as citizens and our country.
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
I think he brought up a lot of questions that we should be asking over the course of the video.
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
Well, sorry I wasted your time. I think had you watched with a open mind you might feel different....but then again, maybe not.
Like I said, let's see what is claimed to be held. If it deserves prosecution, I will be all for it.
Since when are you so trusting of what the government says?
I'm not always so trusting of the government. But when making a decision on which side of an issue I feel has more credible, I look at the players involved. I've witnessed trump tell lie after lie for years now. I've watched him suck up to people who do his bidding and attack everyone who doesn't.
I heard him say something stupid like "everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time."
News flash! You're not entitled to keep those documents for a year and a half after you've been fired! They don't belong to you.
So yes, in the end I trust an actual lifetime Republican who was appointed by Trump, Christopher Wray, who we all know it went through him on its way up the chain of command, than I do trump. There are valid reasons for that.
I witnessed over 140 capital police officers get hurt by protestors sent to the capital by trump. Rather than stand by and support the police that were injured, trump told those people he understood and he loved them. Republicans now are attacking the FBI. So it's the same as it's ever been with trump. He only supports the law enforcement he feels has his back and to hell with anyone he feels doesn't. Then there's the phone call to Georgia election officials. His call to the leaders of Ukraine. The list just goes on and on. Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows you can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.
You seem to be saying you're willing to see what they actually found first. Even though posting that Tucker nonsense suggests otherwise. You do understand that trump could say the thing and easily call off the dogs, right? Yet he won't.
All of these things factor into which side of this I choose to trust at this point. Which in this case makes which side I choose to believe a very easy choice.
According to The Post, 65 D.C. police officers suffered concussions, swollen ankles and wrists, bruises, and irritated lungs from pepper spray.
"81 Capitol police officers were assaulted during the siege, but the extent of their injuries was not detailed in reports." - meaning probably nothing serious
I know we ALL exaggerate but BLM/Antifa violently destroying cities.....REALLY, name the cities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests arson, vandalism, and looting that occurred between May 26 and June 8 caused approximately $1–2 billion in damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, and surpassing the record set during the 1992 Los Angeles riots.[6][43]
At least 200 cities in the U.S. had imposed curfews by early June 2020, while more than 30 states and Washington, D.C. activated over 96,000 National Guard, State Guard, 82nd Airborne, and 3rd Infantry Regiment service members.[33][34][35][36] The deployment, when combined with preexisting deployments related to the COVID-19 pandemic and other natural disasters, constituted the largest military operation other than war in U.S. history.[37] By the end of June 2020, at least 14,000 people had been arrested.[4][38][39] By November 2020, 25 people had died in relation to the unrest.
I know many won't bother to take 25 minutes, but you should watch this. All of it. I think many points are brought up that all of us should at least think about and consider. It's pretty compelling stuff that should at minimum get you thinking, and this isn't a diatribe against the President. For me it is more about the state of affairs. I don't know how factual all the information might or might not be, but I do know the general thrust of his commentary is spot on mark.
We are living in some interesting times, and times that could have drastic implications on our future as citizens and our country.
It only took his first remark for me to immediately see he's full of crap. It was 100% legit and absolutely necessary. Trump is a scumbag. It's not hard to grasp when you quit defending him and actually look at who he is and what he's done. I told y'all he was a crook and a scumbag from the jump. You called me radical. Well now all people still supporting him are the RADICAL EXTREMIST. The dude is a douche, I don't get why anybody protects him. Same for Tucker. Absolute trash, fascist ass bigot, and liar extraordinaire.
First I never used the word carnage. Secondly you have zero evidence that their undescribed injuries were limited to "abrasion, swollen ankles and wrist, lung irritation, and bruises". But you just keep doing you.
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
Well, sorry I wasted your time. I think had you watched with a open mind you might feel different....but then again, maybe not.
I tell ya what 'peen., You watch the last session of the jan 6th hearings with an open mind, then I will watch this with an open mind. Deal?
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
I think he brought up a lot of questions that we should be asking over the course of the video.
The first time I watched I stopped after his "well, documents are classified that shouldn't be all the time" argument. So, according to ol' Tucker, whoever has access to Classified info can decide whether or not they need to treat them as classified or not. When 'peen responded to me I felt bad and watched the whole thing. What I summarized above was the highpoint of his rant.
If the last 23 minutes are anything like the first 3 minutes, then watching that is a waste of 26 minutes.
I do try and give even the likes of Tucker Carlson the benefit of the doubt every once in a while to see if they are getting any better. If nothing else, I get to periodically re-confirm my assumptions... so I guess I can check that box again and not watch anything from him for a period of time.
Well, sorry I wasted your time. I think had you watched with a open mind you might feel different....but then again, maybe not.
I went back and watched the whole thing with an open mind.
Here is the problem with civility. Civility only works when both parties practice it.
No one expected that the president of the United States would consider a white supremacist "very fine people"
No one expected the president of the United States of America to incite a riot.
No one expected the former president of the United States of America to take home confidential property of the government when they left office.
Respect, deference, trust and all other normal things that are expected of being "civil" generally comes with positions of authority, however it can be lost if the actions of the person in the position of authority abuse it.
Which has happened time and time again over and over again.
For anyone to feign surprise that the government is breaking the norms of expectations is totally disingenuous as the norms were broken by the former president, and someone has to clean up after the White House has been trashed by the most uncivil of people.
This is a character flaw in Trump and his entitled upbringing. No one ever would dare smack him down, because rules, well they just don't apply to him.
Tucker can say what he wants, but as a person who considers myself as being honest, I can totally believe that what went down. and the reason it happened is because Trump broke the rules of civility.
Or as my dad would say, "you lay in the bed that you make". That too does not apply to Trump.
I know many won't bother to take 25 minutes, but you should watch this. All of it. I think many points are brought up that all of us should at least think about and consider. It's pretty compelling stuff that should at minimum get you thinking, and this isn't a diatribe against the President. For me it is more about the state of affairs. I don't know how factual all the information might or might not be, but I do know the general thrust of his commentary is spot on mark.
We are living in some interesting times, and times that could have drastic implications on our future as citizens and our country.
Carlson again jumping to conclusions. Sorry, but the guy is a total ass... if you chose to believe anything that comes out of his mouth,, good luck.... You won't find me falling for his BS
No one expected that the president of the United States would consider a white supremacist "very fine people"
No one expected the president of the United States of America to incite a riot.
No one expected the former president of the United States of America to take home confidential property of the government when they left office.
Oh really?
No one thought the son of a mobster. The son of a KKK member. The son of a slum lord. DJT, A known tax cheat. A known womanizer. Married three times. Multiple sexual harassment lawsuits. Multiple bankruptcies. Failed casinos. That’s right, failed casinos, that even the worse mobster would never fail. Lied about his worth to banks and lenders. Started a fraudulent university. Again a known cheat, He hit up Stormy Daniels. Yada yada yada….Really? No one expected? I did. Make that 1 lol.
CNN Exclusive: ‘Ludicrous.’ ‘Ridiculous.’ ‘A complete fiction.’: Former Trump officials say his claim of ‘standing order’ to declassify is nonsense
In the days since the FBI seized classified and top secret documents from Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, the former President and his allies have claimed that Trump had a “standing order” to declassify documents he took from the Oval Office to the White House residence.
But 18 former top Trump administration officials tell CNN they never heard any such order issued during their time working for Trump, and that they believe the claim to be patently false.
Several officials laughed at the notion. One senior administration official called it “bullsh*t.” Two of Trump’s former chiefs of staff went on the record to knock down the claim.
“Nothing approaching an order that foolish was ever given,” said John Kelly, who served as Trump’s chief of staff for 17 months from 2017 to 2019. “And I can’t imagine anyone that worked at the White House after me that would have simply shrugged their shoulders and allowed that order to go forward without dying in the ditch trying to stop it.”
Mick Mulvaney, who succeeded Kelly as acting White House chief of staff, also dismissed the idea and told CNN he was “not aware of a general standing order” during his tenure.
In addition, CNN spoke with former national security and intelligence officials as well as White House lawyers and Justice Department officials. Taken together, their tenure covers all four years of the Trump administration, and many served in positions where they would either be included in the declassification process, or at the very least, be aware of such orders.
Official after official scoffed at the claim Trump had a standing order to declassify documents that left the Oval Office and were taken to the residence.
“Total nonsense,” one senior White House official said. “If that’s true, where is the order with his signature on it? If that were the case, there would have been tremendous pushback from the Intel Community and DoD, which would almost certainly have become known to Intel and Armed Services Committees on the Hill.”
Many of the officials spoke to CNN on the condition of anonymity in order to candidly discuss internal Trump administration dynamics as well as to avoid any potential blowback from the former President.
Blanket claims of declassification
Trump and his allies have made a wide range of claims about declassification in the days after the FBI’s August 8 search of Mar-a-Lago, which resulted in federal agents seizing 11 sets of classified documents – including some marked with the highest levels of classification.
On his social media platform Truth Social last week, Trump made the sweeping claim that the documents in the boxes seized by the FBI at his home were “all declassified.”
John Solomon, editor-in-chief of conservative website “Just the News,” was more specific in an interview with Fox’s Sean Hannity last week. Solomon, who Trump named as one of his designees to the National Archives, read a statement from Trump’s team claiming that the former President “had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.”
Kash Patel, a Trump ally and former national security official in the Trump administration – and also one of the former president’s designees to the Archives – also said on Fox last week that Trump “issued sweeping declassification orders on multiple occasions.” Patel said he did not know whether the boxes at Mar-a-Lago contained documents that were part of those orders.
Representatives for the former President did not respond to requests for comment. Solomon and Patel also did not respond.
The FBI’s unprecedented search warrant of the former President’s residence in Florida was the result of a federal investigation into the removal of classified material from the White House as Trump was leaving office. The investigation goes well beyond the question of whether the material was classified: The search warrant made public last week identifies possible violations of the Espionage Act, obstruction of justice and criminal handling of government records as reasons for the search.
On Thursday, a judge heard arguments to unseal additional materials in the investigation, including the affidavit federal investigators would have had to file laying out why they believed there was probable cause that a crime had been committed. The Justice Department opposes releasing the affidavit, saying it would harm the ongoing criminal investigation.
‘It can’t just be an idea in his head’
Even if Trump had sought to broadly declassify documents, there is a specific process that the president is supposed to follow, the officials said. Declassification must be memorialized and includes careful reviews and notifying agencies such as the CIA, NSA, Department of Energy, State Department and Defense Department.
“It can’t just be an idea in his head,” said David Laufman, the former chief of the Justice Department’s counterintelligence division who investigated Hillary Clinton’s handling of classified documents. “Programs and officials would have been notified. There is no evidence they were.”
Laufman’s successor, Jay Bratt, was one of the four federal investigators who met with Trump’s attorneys about the documents at Mar-a-Lago in June, CNN has previously reported.
One source familiar with declassification inside the Trump White House said although it is true that the President has broad declassification powers, Trump would have needed to create a record of it – and the source said he did not do that.
“As a practical matter, you have to prove it,” the source said. “If he says, ‘I declassified something,’ the obvious question is, ‘Did you tell anybody about it?’ The obvious concern is that this is all after the fact.”
Another source with knowledge of how the former president operated said it was Trump’s view that he could declassify information anytime and any way he wanted.
“He was counseled that’s not the way it works,” the source said.
‘A complete fiction’
Former Trump national security adviser John Bolton called the notion of a standing declassification order “a complete fiction.”
“I was not briefed on anything like that when I started as national security adviser,” Bolton said on CNN’s “New Day” earlier this week. “I never heard of it, never saw it in operation, never knew anything about it.”
In addition, Olivia Troye, a former homeland security adviser to then Vice President Mike Pence, called the notion of a blanket declassification “ludicrous.” Another former senior intelligence official laughed and said it was “ridiculous.”
And a source familiar with White House records and declassification said Trump’s claim was “laughable” and that if any such order existed, it was “Trump’s best kept secret.”
Multiple sources said they believed that Trump’s claim the documents were declassified was nothing more than a transparent attempt to try to defend himself for taking the documents to Mar-a-Lago.
“There is a process to declassify, the president can’t just wave a magic wand,” a former senior Trump White House official said.
All 18 former Trump administration officials who spoke to CNN agreed. “It doesn’t even work that way, there is an actual process,” said one former White House national security official.
“If this existed, there had to be some way to memorialize it,” Bolton said on “New Day.” “The White House counsel had to write it down. Otherwise, how would people throughout the government know what to declassify?”
‘They would have resigned’
A former senior intelligence official said intelligence community leaders, such as then-CIA Director Gina Haspel, would have been informed of any declassification orders.
“And they would not have allowed it,” the official said. “They would have resigned.”
Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy and an expert on classification, noted that presidents have nearly unlimited discretion to classify and declassify information. But Aftergood said the notion that a document was declassified based on its location – such as taking it out of the White House – simply “strains credulity.”
“A document that is classified in Washington, DC, is unclassified in Florida – one could say such a thing, but it is nonsensical,” he said. “And it calls into question the good faith of anyone who would make such a claim.”
Troye, the former homeland security adviser to Pence, said, “there would be a paper trail of this blanket authority being the case, and in two and a half years of working in national security in the White House, not once did I ever hear this discussed.”
Troye resigned from the Trump administration in August 2020 and now leads an anti-Trump Republican group.
Alyssa Farah Griffin, a CNN political commentator who resigned as White House communications director shortly after the 2020 presidential election, called a blanket declassification “deeply reckless.”
“The idea that a president or former could essentially do whatever they want with our nation’s secrets poses an incalculable risk to US national security,” Griffin said.
“We would know,” another former intelligence official said, adding that trying to say the documents were automatically declassified is like “trying to close the barn door after the horse.”
No one expected that the president of the United States would consider a white supremacist "very fine people"
No one expected the president of the United States of America to incite a riot.
No one expected the former president of the United States of America to take home confidential property of the government when they left office.
Oh really?
No one thought the son of a mobster. The son of a KKK member. The son of a slum lord. DJT, A known tax cheat. A known womanizer. Married three times. Multiple sexual harassment lawsuits. Multiple bankruptcies. Failed casinos. That’s right, failed casinos, that even the worse mobster would never fail. Lied about his worth to banks and lenders. Started a fraudulent university. Again a known cheat, He hit up Stormy Daniels. Yada yada yada….Really? No one expected? I did. Make that 1 lol.
Agreed those are not the qualifications that someone would expect of a president either, but I think that the response failed to account for the fact that I was discussing the POTUS.
No one expected that the president of the United States would consider a white supremacist "very fine people"
No one expected the president of the United States of America to incite a riot.
No one expected the former president of the United States of America to take home confidential property of the government when they left office.
Oh really?
No one thought the son of a mobster. The son of a KKK member. The son of a slum lord. DJT, A known tax cheat. A known womanizer. Married three times. Multiple sexual harassment lawsuits. Multiple bankruptcies. Failed casinos. That’s right, failed casinos, that even the worse mobster would never fail. Lied about his worth to banks and lenders. Started a fraudulent university. Again a known cheat, He hit up Stormy Daniels. Yada yada yada….Really? No one expected? I did. Make that 1 lol.
Agreed those are not the qualifications that someone would expect of a president either, but I think that the response failed to account for the fact that I was discussing the POTUS.
Well trump was the POTUS and those where the exact qualifications that trumplandia was built on. We got exactly what we deserved. A fake tanned, narcissistic womanizer who cheats at everything and would do anything to become the DOTUS..(Dictator of the USA). That was pretty obvious to most of us, years, not days or months before Jan 6th 2020.
any news on the civil war yet? so far the only anger i see is people ticked that dodge is discontinuing the challenger and charger. i dont see any bombs over mar a-lago yet.
any news on the civil war yet? so far the only anger i see is people ticked that dodge is discontinuing the challenger and charger. i dont see any bombs over mar a-lago yet.
Marines are the only ones getting riled up about Challengers and Chargers going away.
any news on the civil war yet? so far the only anger i see is people ticked that dodge is discontinuing the challenger and charger. i dont see any bombs over mar a-lago yet.
Marines are the only ones getting riled up about Challengers and Chargers going away.
i know right? what other car justifies a 13% auto rate for military members straight outta basic?
I'd expect something like this, and rightfully so at this point.
This is what I expect it will be.. why in the hell would any judge put witnesses in danger? Look at the climate out there. ANYONE that goes against TRUMP gets attacked and threatened by his MOB of misfit, malcontentent, Racist, Homophobic, Hitler and Putin loving Woman hating, Jack Wads.
And trump only knows one way to respond. Let's think about this for just a moment. Trump wanted this to be released. Now why would that be? Because he knows that it would be heavily redacted. Then he can fall back on the only battle cry he knows.......
"They're hiding the truth from you! It's all a lie! It's a witch hunt! If they really have something why is it all being hidden from you?"
It's all he ever has, all he's got and has followers will fall for it hook, line and sinker...... again.
And trump only knows one way to respond. Let's think about this for just a moment. Trump wanted this to be released. Now why would that be? Because he knows that it would be heavily redacted. Then he can fall back on the only battle cry he knows.......
"They're hiding the truth from you! It's all a lie! It's a witch hunt! If they really have something why is it all being hidden from you?"
It's all he ever has, all he's got and has followers will fall for it hook, line and sinker...... again.
Exactly,,,, 40 will tell us how wrong we all are in 3..2..1
It should - but it won't. And the sTooPildD Trump loyalists are too brainwashed and tainted to realize that what Trump actually did was 1,000 x worse than Hilary and her S3RvErrrrrr.
Whether it goes beyond simply mishandling the documents, deliberately lying about them and being caught red handed? idk.
A former intelligence agent was on a radio talk show and posed a question. What is the innocent narrative? I think that is a great question.
Did these accidentally get mishandled? If so, complete incompetence. Did he want souvenirs and inadvertently think it was okay? If that were the case, then why didn't he just give them back after being asked at least 20 times for them?
Is there any potential innocent explanation? He wants to create a trump presidential library and put those documents in it? Does anybody believe he ever had any intention of creating a library? Even so, he could easily have asked for these documents in the future once it was created.
So again, why does he have these? Why did he take them? And why didn't he just give them back? This all would have been a total nothingburger if he had just given them back upon any of the numerous requests.
i think the biggest thing here is that we need to stop saying mishandled.
trump knew exactly where the boxes were and what was taken. trump has always wiggled out of any accountability because this country has constantly gave him the "he's really gullible and oblivious" card. he's just sloppy so hey no big deal.
amongst other things, that's how the best cons operate. plausible deniability, and the idea that a person is too care free and goofy to deliberately carry out crimes like this. this country has decided that when it comes to Trump and no one else, intent never applies.
im so sick of people talking about law and order and corruption, when trump is just another elite who will get through his entire life doing whatever he wanted with no accountability. dude never has to take responsibility for his own actions, yet half the country thinks this dude is the epitome of picking yourself up by the bootstraps.
people whine about law and order then vote for people who represent the very opposite of that. just stop whining about corruption and the elites if you're gonna vote them into power anyway.
These documents had been subpoenaed months before the warrant. Trump of course tried to negotiate the subpoena because he felt he was above the law even though he was no longer president. This wasn't an accident or because he didn't know he had to turn them over. His attorney's argue that the negotiations between the FBI and team trump were "friendly". What did they expect the FBI to do? Give them advanced warning that if they didn't lawfully comply with the subpoena that a warrant would be issued and the documents would be seized? Sure, let's give a suspect of criminal activity advanced warning so he could further hide or move the documents he illegally possessed and was refusing to turn over. Nobody in their right mind should expect that to happen.
Since the moment Barr Lied about the Muller report I've held him in complete contempt and have him labelled as being as bad - worse than Trump. How bad does Trump need to be for Barr to eventually feel he couldn't support him any longer after he already pulled that schtick?
It should - but it won't. And the sTooPildD Trump loyalists are too brainwashed and tainted to realize that what Trump actually did was 1,000 x worse than Hilary and her S3RvErrrrrr.
Whether it goes beyond simply mishandling the documents, deliberately lying about them and being caught red handed? idk.
In order to be brain washed, one would need to have a brain right?
These people that talk about "constitutional law" have no problem trying to subvert it.
I never had a problem with republicans and being conservative. Right now I have a big prpblem with the republican party until they purge themselves from trump.
Another case of clear obstruction by "the traitor."
Nobody is more justified to be put in jail than trump. He is the single worse thing that has happened to this country ever.
A president from hell.
It cracks me up that they still refuse to see Trump and Putin colluded. As a matter of fact, almost all the crap the boards Trumpians roasted me for saying has now been proven correct. And it almost feels bad to tell them I told you so... almost. I can't see how any honest adult in America can't look at Trump and see nothing but a blowhard sack of crap. But if he somehow avoids jail, he'll probably get the nod again. And if he goes to jail or gets disqualified, the Christian Nationalists will give the nod to an even more fascist DeSantis. This country is all but done unless we drive the Troglodytes back into their holes.
I am ecstatic that they are losing followers at the speed of light right now. I've seen a ton of people who voted for Trump twice now saying the GOP went too far with Roe, picking on the Trans kids, banning books, and that their agenda is not welcome. It gives me some hope that this wackadoodle time in America may be coming to a close. Hopefully, the mid-terms give the left BIGGER majorities in both houses of congress, the slow but steady improvements to the economy keep coming, and dems look like saviors of democracy by the time 2024 gets here. I also hope the GOP realizes how bad it's going and starts weeding out the idiots.
i think the biggest thing here is that we need to stop saying mishandled.
trump knew exactly where the boxes were and what was taken. trump has always wiggled out of any accountability because this country has constantly gave him the "he's really gullible and oblivious" card. he's just sloppy so hey no big deal.
amongst other things, that's how the best cons operate. plausible deniability, and the idea that a person is too care free and goofy to deliberately carry out crimes like this. this country has decided that when it comes to Trump and no one else, intent never applies.
im so sick of people talking about law and order and corruption, when trump is just another elite who will get through his entire life doing whatever he wanted with no accountability. dude never has to take responsibility for his own actions, yet half the country thinks this dude is the epitome of picking yourself up by the bootstraps.
people whine about law and order then vote for people who represent the very opposite of that. just stop whining about corruption and the elites if you're gonna vote them into power anyway.
Not only that, but if Trump gets a total pass, every criminal in the country is going to be pointing to that and screaming UNFAIR prosecution. I know if they let him off, I better never even get so much as a ticket again. No rules for them, no rules for us. And I'm getting to the point that I feel the same about taxes. If the rich don't have to pay, why should I?... Just watch them use the "Affluenza" style defense on all the high profile people involved in Trumps crimes...
Affidavit in Trump search cites prior discovery of secret documents A redacted affidavit released on Friday said that more than 184 classified documents were retrieved from former President Donald Trump’s Florida residence earlier this year, The Wall Street Journal reports. The document, which was obtained by WSJ, said there was “probable cause to believe that additional documents” with classified information remained on the property and “also probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction” would be discovered there.
It's all coming out now. And in just a few days the Jan 6th hearings will start again. Just a couple of months before the elections. Not to mention that they may also have a whole slew of criminal GOPers to replace at some point if Dems get a larger supermajority.
It is hard to fathom all the crimes hanging from trump's neck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 6th. - obstructing the transfer of power; defrauding the government, inciting violence
Ga. - trying to subvert the election process creating false electors
trump org. - he pleads the 5th; CFO guilty of tax fraud
top secret docs, - taken to a country club
Donald Trump, the president of the United States from 2017 to 2021, has been accused of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment, including non-consensual kissing or groping, by at least 25 women since the 1970s.
It’s unreal to think if the GOP held the majority all this would be kept quiet. donny would be free to hold national security level documents at his golf course. Unreal.
Hell, you know obstruction is the agenda if they take either house of congress. That's all they know how to do. Biden's admin has been fighting an uphill battle against all the continuous attacks from the right WHILE ALSO delivering for the people WITH a 50-50 Split Senate. Imagine what will happen if we can strengthen his supermajority. Thanks to Trump and company, that becomes a greater likelihood every day.
how come i haven't seen anybody live stream the civil war yet?
not cool to joke about.
not cool to threaten it, but here you are more concerned about what i'm saying.
It's not a threat. The reality is we have been in a civil war for maybe 20 years now. I have said so for a long time. A civil war doesn't have to be opposing armies lined up, at least at the start. It always starts with some sort of political divide that festers over a period of time. The war between the states didn't start as a shooting affair. It was being fought in political terms for 2-3 decades before actual shots were fired.
Just watch the news and you will see it being fought out every night. Be it politicians waging war against each other or riots of protest. You should know that African Americans have been in a fight for years. I am not saying that fight is or was wrong or right, probably some of both, but that is/was a civil war. Civil wars are fought to make change or prevent that change.
Not long ago after someone was shot you were calling to burn it all down. You are my bro, I only point that out to illustrate how emotions be it yours, mine, or anyone else's can fan the flames and how they can change depending on circumstances and point of view.
i did say that a while back. and i was dumb to do so.
You weren't dumb. Only dumb people are dumb. You were passionately emotional. We all get that way from time to time. That is a part of what makes us human.
i did say that a while back. and i was dumb to do so.
You weren't dumb. Only dumb people are dumb. You were passionately emotional. We all get that way from time to time. That is a part of what makes us human.
right but at some point you have to learn from your mistakes. i was dumb to say that then, which is why i dont say nonsense like that now.
these clowns were threatening war over the 2020 election, and did it AGAIN over this raid. you can give someone the benefit of doubt the first time. once they start repeating the same "mistake", we have a problem.
It’s unreal to think if the GOP held the majority all this would be kept quiet. donny would be free to hold national security level documents at his golf course. Unreal.
Lol. Nation secrets kept in a lame ass safe that was cracked in seconds. And GOP leaders call for violence, again. Unreal.
Photo of Secret Documents Piled on Trump Carpet Adds to DOJ Pressure
- Justice Department responds to Trump request for review
- Some key supporters have appeared reluctant to defend Trump
The Department of Justice filing against Donald Trump was stark, saying someone at his Mar-a-Lago club may have tried to conceal or remove classified documents before an FBI search this month, constituting potential obstruction of justice.
It was a damaging accusation against the former president, revealed in a late Tuesday court filing.
But the photo included in the filing spoke even louder.
“TOP SECRET/SCI” blazed out on cover sheets for at least five sets of papers laid out on the carpeting. Another cover sheet at the fore of the government photo said “SECRET/SCI” and “Contains sensitive compartmented information” -- a marking for documents that include references to source and methods, which intelligence agencies go to great lengths to protect.
For supporters and critics of the former president, it was the first time the sensitive national security papers at the center of the latest controversy were visible, even if their contents remained classified.
One of the documents is dated Wednesday, May 9, 2018. The contents are obscured, but that’s a day after Trump announced the US withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal.
Altogether, they are the types of documents normally found in highly secure facilities known in the intelligence trade as SCIFs. And they are the sort of paperwork the government argued Trump had no right or authority to take with him when his presidency ended.
The photo -- which was part of the Justice Department’s response to Trump’s demands to have the documents reviewed by a special master -- may further undercut enthusiasm among some key supporters to defend the former president’s actions. Normally stalwart backers have stayed quiet or tried to deflect criticism after initially protesting the FBI search as an overreach by DOJ.
Trump criticized the fact that authorities displayed the documents on the floor for pictures and suggested it was done to incriminate him.
“Terrible the way the FBI, during the Raid of Mar-a-Lago, threw documents haphazardly all over the floor (perhaps pretending it was me that did it!), and then started taking pictures of them for the public to see,” he wrote on his Truth Social platform. “Thought they wanted them kept Secret? Lucky I Declassified!”
Trump has denied wrongdoing but offered no credible explanation for why he had the documents or didn’t return them earlier, as his lawyers claimed. Some of his supporters have suggested without offering any proof that the FBI somehow planted evidence at Trump’s club.
In the Justice Department photo, the documents were strewn out alongside letters or memos with White House letterhead that appeared redacted by government investigators, as well as a bankers box containing a framed copy of the cover of Time magazine’s March 4, 2019 issue, featuring Trump in the Oval Office and a slew of potential Democratic rivals looking in through the window.
One of those rivals, Joe Biden, now has Trump’s seat in the office. It’s the former president who is now on the outside, with supporters wondering if the latest controversy means he’ll never get back in.
Trump just claimed on his social media app that he declassified the documents.
sooo....Trump declassified fake documents that the FBI planted that were never classified to begin with, and he already gave back those documents he never had in the first place. and since they belong to him, the FBI must give them back.
i dunno whats worse: the lies, or the fact that his supporters have actually bought into those trash excuses.
how come i haven't seen anybody live stream the civil war yet?
not cool to joke about.
Why? I mean when you get Lindsay Graham saying what he said the other day,,,, what's wrong with showing what "isn't" happening.
I guess/wondered why Biden said yesterday to the "those brave right-wing Americans" that guns won't do anything and you need F-15s to go against the government.
Biden isn't exactly helping the situation...
If anything, he just made 150 million people more anxious that the gov't is coming for their guns.
how come i haven't seen anybody live stream the civil war yet?
not cool to joke about.
Why? I mean when you get Lindsay Graham saying what he said the other day,,,, what's wrong with showing what "isn't" happening.
I guess/wondered why Biden said yesterday to the "those brave right-wing Americans" that guns won't do anything and you need F-15s to go against the government.
Biden isn't exactly helping the situation...
If anything, he just made 150 million people more anxious that the gov't is coming for their guns.
85,000 armed IRS agents are coming for more than auditing the public. Sounds more like a private army being formed against the American public. By law the armed forces are limited in what they can do inside our borders. A private army isn't.
It takes a small army of bean counters to audit big corps. But I wouldn't want you to stop fear-mongering for five seconds to be sensible or logical about this IRS expansion.
It's not a threat. The reality is we have been in a civil war for maybe 20 years now. I have said so for a long time.
And this is why one tribe makes excuse after excuse for trump. They believe it's a war to "save their country". No matter what, the war is on. They call the other side the Godless hoard, label them as communists and think they are the enemy destroying "their country". And they sing loudly....
sooo....Trump declassified fake documents that the FBI planted that were never classified to begin with, and he already gave back those documents he never had in the first place. and since they belong to him, the FBI must give them back.
He's like that 13 yr. old juvenile delinquent tap dancing in the Dean of Discipline's office after being caught with his hand in the teacher's desk.
85,000 armed IRS agents are coming for more than auditing the public. Sounds more like a private army being formed against the American public. By law the armed forces are limited in what they can do inside our borders. A private army isn't.
And there it is. Any conspiracy theory someone can pull out of their ass gets assumed as some type of truth. No wonder you think we're in a civil war. If I looked for boogeymen everywhere I would probably believe that crazy BS too.
That really makes my blood boil. For those who don't know, when it comes to SCI stuff, it is HEAVILY protected, and I mean HEAVILY.
For instance, you could have a SCIF (we'll call it a vault) that is inside another vault, that is inside an area that you have to scan into. You have to have clearance to scan into the area to begin with, and then you have to have clearance to enter the greater vault. If that vault happens to discuss a particular program/operation/information that you are not cleared to, you get kicked out of the vault until everything is properly stored in a container that typically needs two people to unlock (because of Snowden). Then, you might need to have ADDITIONAL need-to-know clearance to get into the last vault that is inside the other vault. Each vault has to be approved for the information that is stored or discussed inside of it, and if you bring stuff from the inside vault to the outside vault, guess what, you're in hot water, even if it was negligent, because that information is not approved to be in the outside vault.
Then there's this clown who takes it all to his house.
The reports I saw said a lot of them were in a room with just a padlock on the door. And he only put a padlock on the door after the FBI asked him to "secure them". You know, while they were trying to get him to comply with the law which he wouldn't do even after the subpoena had been issued demanding he do so. I guess the question remains as to what documents he had in that room, what documents he had in the safe and what documents he had hidden elsewhere.
So are you saying a simple padlock isn't enough security for secret government documents?
Some documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago were so sensitive that FBI agents needed a special clearance to look at them, DOJ says Tom Porter and Sonam Sheth 10 hours ago
Some of the documents that FBI agents retrieved after searching Mar-a-Lago were so classified that investigators needed special permission to view them, according to Justice Department court documents filed Tuesday.
The 36-page filing came as a response to former President Donald Trump's lawsuit last week requesting that a court-appointed "special master" be tasked with reviewing the materials the FBI seized after executing a search warrant at his Florida home on August 8.
In addition to detailing the highly classified nature of some records that agents recovered, the DOJ also revealed that it suspects there were efforts to obstruct its investigation into the former president's handling of national-security information and the haphazard way he stored the documents at Mar-a-Lago.
"In some instances, even the FBI counterintelligence personnel and DOJ attorneys conducting the review required additional clearances before they were permitted to review certain documents," the filing said.
The department also attached exhibits to its filing, one of which was a photo showing some documents marked "contains sensitive compartmented information up to HCS-P/SI/TK." "HCS" refers to intelligence from clandestine human sources and is highly classified to protect their safety.
The Director of National Intelligence, Avril Haines, recently told lawmakers that her office is leading an investigation into the possible national-security risks that could arise if the records had been disclosed or fell into the wrong hands.
Trump, for his part, has railed against the FBI in the weeks since the raid and claimed that he had broadly declassified all the documents.
However, the Justice Department noted in its filing that Trump never asserted executive privilege or said anything was declassified in conversations preceding the search of his Florida estate. CNN also recently interviewed 18 former Trump-administration aides and officials, none of whom said they were aware of any standing declassification order.
More importantly, even if Trump had declassified the materials in his possession, it likely wouldn't matter.
Section E of the Espionage Act, one of the three laws Trump is suspected of having violated, makes it a crime to retain any government records pertaining to the US's national defense, regardless of classification level.
The other two federal statutes Trump is suspected of having broken — 18 USC Section 2071 and 18 USC Section 1519 — criminalize the concealment, removal, and destruction of government records, also regardless of classification level.
Investigators took the extraordinary step of seeking a search warrant against the former president after obtaining evidence that there may have been efforts to hamper its investigation into Trump's handling of government records.
In Tuesday's filing, the Justice Department detailed months of back-and-forth communications between US officials and Trump's team in which Trump and his representatives continuously resisted handing over the records that he improperly moved to Mar-a-Lago once he left office.
The government also "developed evidence" that official documents were "likely concealed and removed" from a storage room at Mar-a-Lago "and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation," the filing said.
Trump has sought to portray the search as politically motivated, and has applied to have the special master review the documents because he claims that many were covered by executive privilege and ought to be returned to him.
The Justice Department refuted that claim in its Tuesday filing as well, saying that Trump isn't entitled to a special master because the records in question "don't belong to him" and are the property of the US government.
What an idiot. That speaks to what I mentioned earlier. Even the FBI agents - who I'm sure all have some level of higher clearance - didn't qualify because they weren't specifically briefed to the program, because they were not "need-to-know."
trump is not bright. He is savvy especially about the media. He has made money by knowing people will believe lies. If you are convincing as a liar; people will believe you.
His money came from his father and branding his name very well. He is uneducated and knows little about anything outside of his real estate business.
He is a complete fraud. Complete. The most unprepared and incompetent president ever.
I wish we could just lock him in a hole now. How much more evidence is needed? He’s incompetent to the point of dangerous. He and his entire reign is a stain on our country.
The case would go in front of a jury of 12 people. Do you really believe that trumps lawyers wouldn't be able to get 1 maga-head onto that jury? Someone who would look at irrefutable evidence and say something like, well if he did do it he muct have had a good reason. Not guilty.
Then you have a hung jury and we never hear the end of I wad exonerated! I was vindicated in this political witch hunt! Blah blah blah despite an 11-1 vote of guilty
What an idiot. That speaks to what I mentioned earlier. Even the FBI agents - who I'm sure all have some level of higher clearance - didn't qualify because they weren't specifically briefed to the program, because they were not "need-to-know."
It sounds like those docs in that picture were inside his desk, in an unsecured office, and in an unlocked drawer! I'd check those first for limiting damage. This dumbass was probably on the phone talking about them or bringing people in to see what he had! Biden wouldn't grant him security briefings after the Jan 6th event, so he stole crap. If he wasn't on the phone with Putin or that Prince from SA bragging and filling them in to reduce his debt. Jesus, he did this crap with intel on Macron's sex life! You can't make this crap up. We look like absolute idiots to the rest of the world right now. Why is this idiot not behind bars? His whole circle needs to go straight to jail, and we need to keep them from ever participating in any form of government again. Bad enough, we'll have to try and fix all those who sold out entirely to this dangerous idiot's fake ideology based on hate, bigotry, authoritarianism, white supremacy, Christian Nationalism, and crime while he sold them fake patriotism, fake religious convictions, hate, fear, anger and all from his demented "poor me" megalomania.
The case would go in front of a jury of 12 people. Do you believe that trumps lawyers wouldn't be able to get one maga-head onto that jury? Someone who would look at irrefutable evidence and say something like, well if he did do it he muct have had a good reason. Not guilty.
Then you have a hung jury and we never hear the end of I wad exonerated! I was vindicated in this political witch hunt! Blah blah blah despite an 11-1 vote of guilty
Just because he knows he's guilty and risks doing many years, if he gets charged, he'll try to deal. I don't think it would ever get to court, especially how Garland has beat them at every turn in the public domain game. But, let's say he does. As paranoid as he is or they are, they'll worry about Magas on the jury too, because almost all of the evidence from the 6th was given by republicans and Magas. Not so sure it's a safe bet for trump either way, especially the way he has done lawyers and the quality of those he is reduced to working with now. He would almost assuredly try to deal or get entirely nailed to the wall. I don't think it will be just one charge, but many, and the jury will consider each.
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Step back and look at yourself, that should scare you.
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![[Linked Image from assets.bwbx.io]](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iTScFkZnR5z4/v0/800x-1.jpg)
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You can't make this crap up. We look like absolute idiots to the rest of the world right now. Why is this idiot not behind bars? His whole circle needs to go straight to jail, and we need to keep them from ever participating in any form of government again. Bad enough, we'll have to try and fix all those who sold out entirely to this dangerous idiot's fake ideology based on hate, bigotry, authoritarianism, white supremacy, Christian Nationalism, and crime while he sold them fake patriotism, fake religious convictions, hate, fear, anger and all from his demented "poor me" megalomania.